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DLASFlyer
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What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:27 pm

It seems like Aspen has a major problem on its hands. I believe the CRJ-700 is the only commercial aircraft capable of flying there. This plane has been out of production for some time now and is not particularly economical. Delta has already pulled out of ASE, in part due to the pandemic but also probably partially due to its planned phase out of many CRJ aircraft in favor of E175. Delta used to serve Aspen from ATL and SLC.

Aspen currently has American Eagle CRJ-700 service from DFW, LAX, AUS, PHX and ORD. United serves ASE from DEN, SFO, LAX, ORD and IAH.

What's going to happen when the CRJ is no more? Does the airport close? Or will the runway finally get extended?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:33 pm

ASE (the airport, not the region) isn't going to fade into irrelevance. They will change the rules, extend the runway... as needed to retain scheduled passenger service by major carriers.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:34 pm

The problem isn’t the runway... it’s the single engine go around performance and the wing span which are the main problems. The E170 I believe has the performance but the wing span is too large.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:36 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
The problem isn’t the runway... it’s the single engine go around performance and the wing span which are the main problems. The E170 I believe has the performance but the wing span is too large.


So I guess the place will be for private jets only. Kind of the way the whole town has been going anyway :)
 
joeblow10
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:40 pm

The issue has been going on for years - the airport has tried to call for expanding/extending the runway, even to 737 capability... but the locals aren’t sold. My guess is the CR7 has 10ish years left before it’s gone for good and ASE will be a huge reason why it lasts that long. By then I’m guessing some construction will at least enable another 76 seater to get in and out
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:41 pm

175s or the A220 are the answer.
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NLINK
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:44 pm

Pitkin county has a study out where it talks about the Airbus 220, E2 and the Spacejet. I think it is on the county website about a feasibility study. I do not know personally of the single engine go around of any of the above aircraft at that elevation.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:57 pm

I do not think this is a big issue. The CR7 will be around for a long time. When it's close to it's sunset we will see them doing work on the ground to accommodate the A220 or 175. It doesn't seem like a huge issue. In summer the drive to EGE is quite easy and the airport will have to close for a spring/summer. I don't see this as a huge deal as the CR7 is around for at least 10+ years and the last for skywest will be flying to ASE. Not a huge disaster and EGE is really not that far. I know alot of people in aspen who use EGE in winter simply because it's reliable has further flights on bigger planes to major cities and ASE has so many delays and cancellations anyway.
 
codc10
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:11 pm

Eventually ASE will make the airfield improvements to accommodate larger jets. It's only a matter of time... they won't simply forego commercial airline service. It's not just a runway width issue, but the location of the terminal, and distance between the runway centerline and the parking area, taxiway dimensions, etc. It will be a pretty significant project, whenever it happens.

EGE is close-ish, but wintertime driving I-70 through the tunnels near Hanging Lake can be treacherous, and subject to closure... not to mention an extended fire-related closure in that area this past summer! It's also not much more reliable than ASE and still sees its fair share of diversions all winter long.

In the meantime, the CR7 isn't going anywhere. Eventually, the only CR7s (not the "550") on the OO UAX contract will be the 17 or so it needs for wintertime ASE service, but the CR7 fleet is growing at American Eagle.
 
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Crosswind
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:13 pm

According to Wiki the physical restrictions at the airport, performance aside, are 29m/95ft max wingspan and 45000kg/100000lb landing weight. All the E170/175/190/195 fall within this. On the other hand all E2 variants are outside the wingspan clause.

But maybe there’s something more to the legal restrictions at Aspen. Certainly from a performance perspective the E-Jet is superior against the CRJ. In Europe the 2 main performance limiting airports London City and Florence are dominated by E-Jets, and the CRJ is absent in both.
 
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Citrus1492
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:30 pm

Sounds like a mission for the dash 7.
Any other turboprops with better engine out climb?
Be the best
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:35 pm

Vast difference between KASE and EGLC. If KASE could accommodate E-jets they would have long ago, something else at work.
 
CALMSP
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:35 pm

Citrus1492 wrote:
Sounds like a mission for the dash 7.
Any other turboprops with better engine out climb?


I know, UA used to operate the Q400 into ASE. Really wish the Q400 was still around for some of the ops surrounding DEN.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:45 pm

Review the ASE Airport Planning Stage I document. Page 11 says E-jets do not met the required performance.

https://389kndfjeyc2zewjj3xg9k4w-wpengi ... _Part1.pdf
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Review the ASE Airport Planning Stage I document. Page 11 says E-jets do not met the required performance.

https://389kndfjeyc2zewjj3xg9k4w-wpengi ... _Part1.pdf


If that’s the case then the A220 definitely won’t.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:06 pm

No, actually, if read thru that, the A220-100 does met the performance standards, just too great a wingspan for current runway/taxiway configuration. There’s a plot in there showing about a 2340nm still air range out of KASE with 108 passengers. They also show the E170-E2 as TBD for performance, I’d guess they’d met the requirements.

If you go to the KASE airport site there’s a ton of reports on future design.
 
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Polot
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:09 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Review the ASE Airport Planning Stage I document. Page 11 says E-jets do not met the required performance.

https://389kndfjeyc2zewjj3xg9k4w-wpengi ... _Part1.pdf


If that’s the case then the A220 definitely won’t.

The document linked also talks about the A220 (C Series at time of its preparation). It meets performance requirements but the plane’s wingspan is way too big for the airport.
 
Elementalism
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:15 pm

Wingspan restrictions due to physical limitations of the airport?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:22 pm

Yes, clearances between taxiway, ramps and runway, it’s pretty tight in a large bizjet, the Global and Gulfstream are on waivers.
 
durangomac
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:25 pm

My understanding is that the E170 doesn't have the single engine performance needed. I understand the E175 with the improved wing and engine do have the performance for single engine operations.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:24 pm

That’s what is in the documents to read.
 
durangomac
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That’s what is in the documents to read.


I heard Republic/Shuttle America attempted to get the E170 certified and they couldn't even perform the procedures in the simulator.

Rumor is that SkyWest has already tested with an E175 into ASE, was able to pass all the tests both in the simulator and with real flights.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:10 pm

I presume, despite MTOGW over 86,000#, the E175 is scope compliant for SKW mainline partners.
 
ihmcallister
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:41 pm

Citrus1492 wrote:
Sounds like a mission for the dash 7.
Any other turboprops with better engine out climb?


In the late 1980s Continental Express used ATR-42s there, but they weren't great on one engine. They re-hired some Convair 580s, which United Express also had. Now that was a machine that had single engine turboprop power that bettered the original pair of Wrights working together!
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:57 pm

durangomac wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That’s what is in the documents to read.

Rumor is that SkyWest has already tested with an E175 into ASE, was able to pass all the tests both in the simulator and with real flights.


i heard something about this, possibly starting this next season, but limited to about forty people per flight.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:26 am

As an alternative to ASE would the airport at Grand Junction work?
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:37 am

I don't remember what year it was, probably 2014 or 2015. I worked at DEN at the time and know for a fact 3 or 4 E170's I guess it was were flown to ASE as substitution flights over the course of a day or 2, I don't know why they were substituted and I didn't think much of it at the time, just that I thought it was odd that they were flying in E170's.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:46 am

I don't think there is much commercial demand to ASE. If there was we would have already seen the airport expand facilities to accommodate larger aircraft. We would also see wingtip to wingtip CR7 flights. That just isn't the case. There's seven flights to DEN and 1-2x to the remaining cities and even some of them are seasonal. The majority visiting into ASE do not fly commercial. And that's not a problem.
 
RJNUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:57 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't think there is much commercial demand to ASE. If there was we would have already seen the airport expand facilities to accommodate larger aircraft. We would also see wingtip to wingtip CR7 flights. That just isn't the case. There's seven flights to DEN and 1-2x to the remaining cities and even some of them are seasonal. The majority visiting into ASE do not fly commercial. And that's not a problem.



oh, the demand is there, but the NIMBYism pushback against expansion is probably the strongest in the country. . But they will come around eventually , probably too late , just as the CR7 sunsets. I saw the same problem with the sunsetting of the BAE146,.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:51 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
As an alternative to ASE would the airport at Grand Junction work?


KGJT was extensively looked in the Aspen Airport Development documents at their website. Too far, especially in winter. There’s a lot of detail to read—maybe 200 pages, enjoy.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:53 am

On a per passenger count, private jets are much less than half of pax throughput. There’s demand, but the billionaires are keeping out the riff-raff.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:02 am

joeblow10 wrote:
The issue has been going on for years - the airport has tried to call for expanding/extending the runway, even to 737 capability... but the locals aren’t sold. My guess is the CR7 has 10ish years left before it’s gone for good and ASE will be a huge reason why it lasts that long. By then I’m guessing some construction will at least enable another 76 seater to get in and out

The locals that matter can still get in to ASE in their G-V's and TBM's, so it doesn't really matter to them. And reducing the number of smelly plebes visiting the area is a bonus to those who own the mountainside chalets.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I presume, despite MTOGW over 86,000#, the E175 is scope compliant for SKW mainline partners.

It isn't the particular aircraft, it is the type specific training program required for operation at ASE.
 
alasizon
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:07 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Review the ASE Airport Planning Stage I document. Page 11 says E-jets do not met the required performance.

https://389kndfjeyc2zewjj3xg9k4w-wpengi ... _Part1.pdf


If that’s the case then the A220 definitely won’t.


The document was written in 2013, pre E175+. With the extended wing the aircraft is able to meet the performance requirements out of ASE.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:14 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I presume, despite MTOGW over 86,000#, the E175 is scope compliant for SKW mainline partners.

It isn't the particular aircraft, it is the type specific training program required for operation at ASE.


What does the training program have to do with scope compliance?
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:15 am

Construction won't occur in winter. The CR7 has alot of life left in it, they should kick the can down the road but be thinking of potential plans.

EGE and to a smaller extent GJT can cover for a short time period when they need to do construction, again it won't be in winter. EGE really isn't that bad a drive and the airport is served by AA and UA already they will simply up capacity when this construction occurs. West yellowstone? iirc has a similar situation and other airports nearby gained service.
Aspen will survive for a summer with people using EGE it really won't crush the local economy at all. It's not an island that needs the airport to survive and no alternatives. ASE is really a convenience airport not a necessity airport. The rich people might just go a few less times when this construction occurs because the airport isn't right in town anymore. They really will find a solution to the CR7 retiring , maybe a new plane type or ground construction but they have plenty of time.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:30 am

Is there any service to KRIL Rifle? Pretty easy drive, decent airport.
 
CALMSP
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Is there any service to KRIL Rifle? Pretty easy drive, decent airport.


not from a commercial standpoint. But I often wondered the way air service was developing all over the place in 2019 if we could see RIL coming online in the next 5 years. But I think thats out the window now.
 
oosnowrat
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:57 am

BiggerJetsPlz wrote:
durangomac wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That’s what is in the documents to read.

Rumor is that SkyWest has already tested with an E175 into ASE, was able to pass all the tests both in the simulator and with real flights.


i heard something about this, possibly starting this next season, but limited to about forty people per flight.


How can a 40-seat E175 make more sense than a 65+seat CR7?
 
DenverTed
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:31 am

Alaska Airlines lists the E175 as a wingspan with winglets of 94'-2". Does the CR7 have better engine out performance since the engine is closer to centerline? Sounds like this has to do with climb and terrain rather than airfield constraints for the E175.
 
rbavfan
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, actually, if read thru that, the A220-100 does met the performance standards, just too great a wingspan for current runway/taxiway configuration. There’s a plot in there showing about a 2340nm still air range out of KASE with 108 passengers. They also show the E170-E2 as TBD for performance, I’d guess they’d met the requirements.

If you go to the KASE airport site there’s a ton of reports on future design.


There is no E170-E2 in development. There is an E175-E2 in devlopement.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:29 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
On a per passenger count, private jets are much less than half of pax throughput. There’s demand, but the billionaires are keeping out the riff-raff.


I visited Aspen in November 2020 for the first time and I came away feeling like the town had a strange vibe to it. Beautiful place but the lack of mainstream grocery stores, restaurants...etc was strange to me.
 
sprxUSA
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Is there any service to KRIL Rifle? Pretty easy drive, decent airport.


Aspen Airways flew there for a short period. I have a schedule for early spring period of 1982 and they were serving it. I was flying back from DEN looking at said schedule asking aloud "where's Rifle?" A guy in in waiting area answered where it is. Bet a CVR looked good there.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
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Polot
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:20 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
BiggerJetsPlz wrote:
durangomac wrote:
Rumor is that SkyWest has already tested with an E175 into ASE, was able to pass all the tests both in the simulator and with real flights.


i heard something about this, possibly starting this next season, but limited to about forty people per flight.


How can a 40-seat E175 make more sense than a 65+seat CR7?

It doesn’t. But depending on yields a 40 seat E175 might make more sense than a 0 seat nothing.

The issue has been CRJ700 are starting to get up there in age and airlines have been preferring CRJ900/E175s to get maximum benefit from their 50-78 seat fleet caps.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:24 pm

Does ASE generate enough revenue to warrant keeping the CR7 around dedicated to that airport?
 
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Polot
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:26 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Does ASE generate enough revenue to warrant keeping the CR7 around dedicated to that airport?

No. Remember it is a highly seasonal market.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:26 pm

The perfect airplane for this airport was the ARJ that both Mesaba and Aspen Airways flew there.
 
VSMUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:26 pm

Citrus1492 wrote:
Sounds like a mission for the dash 7.
Any other turboprops with better engine out climb?


No need to climb out directly. You can just circle inside the valley until you can get out.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:36 pm

rbavfan wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, actually, if read thru that, the A220-100 does met the performance standards, just too great a wingspan for current runway/taxiway configuration. There’s a plot in there showing about a 2340nm still air range out of KASE with 108 passengers. They also show the E170-E2 as TBD for performance, I’d guess they’d met the requirements.

If you go to the KASE airport site there’s a ton of reports on future design.


There is no E170-E2 in development. There is an E175-E2 in devlopement.


Tell that to the Pitkin County Airport, just relaying what they wrote in an official planning document.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Citrus1492 wrote:
Sounds like a mission for the dash 7.
Any other turboprops with better engine out climb?


No need to climb out directly. You can just circle inside the valley until you can get out.


Not sure I’d try that in IMC.

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