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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:12 pm

They are trying to steal a piece of the summer driving traffic in these markets.
The thing is, you typically still need a car / ground transportation in these destinations, and if you are hauling a family of 4+ along with all the gear for a beach week vacation, the value proposition of drive vs. drive from many of these markets is tough to overcome.

In the summer, Hilton Head and really any of the Carolina beaches and barrier islands are inundated with Ohio license plates.

The thing is, I'm curious as to,even in years pre-Covid, these places were already full during most summer. Its not like even if there is "pent-up" demand, these places were already full from a lodging perspective. Additional air service is really targeting to steal some of the drive market.

OTOH, there are people that are vacation property homeowners, and/or have family that live/retired/own property in these markets. Probably trying to tap some of that market and stimulate demand and/or those people still working remotely to maybe spend more time at the beach.

Multi-generational vacations to reunite extended and distributed families are increasing popular.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:21 pm

Antarius wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

I agree with you, but at least for me "not sustainable" connotes "bad idea," and I think demand is still sufficiently odd/depressed that trying to find some routes that make at least a little money probably is not a bad idea.


I’d be surprised if these routes collectively made money...


They'll likely make more money than sitting the aircraft on the ground while paying fixed costs.

Until COVID is behind us, the name of the game is loss minimization.


A bunch of leisure routes on especially high-CASM CRJ-550's will definitely lose money. They will likely end up wishing they had just parked the aircraft (if these routes even end up launching)
 
LCDFlight
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:26 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

I’d be surprised if these routes collectively made money...


They'll likely make more money than sitting the aircraft on the ground while paying fixed costs.

Until COVID is behind us, the name of the game is loss minimization.


A bunch of leisure routes on especially high-CASM CRJ-550's will definitely lose money. They will likely end up wishing they had just parked the aircraft (if these routes even end up launching)


Probably true. But still interesting they are chasing after affluent markets like this, with kind of a new product.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: UA Adds PNS/HHH Summer Only Focus Points

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:29 pm

adamblang wrote:
micstatic wrote:
adamblang wrote:
Same. That these are all CRJ-550s tells me "hey Delta flyers, we know you haven't flown us for a while and you had your reasons for doing that, but you'll probably bite on these nonstops rather than connecting in Atlanta, and while we've got you onboard, notice how much better we've gotten than Delta?"



It's a significant stretch to call united's domestic product better than delta. Would be the first time I've heard somebody suggest that.

Lemme know when Delta puts a mid-cabin snack bar on a 50 seat regional jet.


The crj550 is a tiny % of the Express fleet though

UA almost operates more CRJ200s & E145s than DL's entire connection fleet.

Cubsrule wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This isn’t a major, sustainable expansion.

This is UA trying to mimic G4 but using idle RJ capacity.

Enjoy summer 2021 dart board routes while they last.


I agree with you, but at least for me "not sustainable" connotes "bad idea," and I think demand is still sufficiently odd/depressed that trying to find some routes that make at least a little money probably is not a bad idea.


I agree, UA will go back to using these aircraft on more business heavy routes in the coming years.

For now these aircraft can be used for less traditional flying.

kavok wrote:
Reading the announcement, I actually view this more as UA using 2021 domestic leisure flying as a way to make a longer term play at getting better marketshare in the heartland. Yes the “focus” may be in HHH/PNS, but the business focus is further north. UA can try the routes out this year, when opportunity cost is low, see if any of the routes does well enough to justify keeping it, but more importantly see if any loyalty can be grown in the respective heartland markets.

To be blunt, I really do see this as a UA play to win over some DL flyers, while putting some UA aircraft and crews to use as well. For many of these markets (the ones that weren’t previously AA/CO/US hubs anyway), Northwest (and then Delta after the merger) historically has been the primary heartland carrier for those outside of Chicago. That heartland strategy has made NW and DL a ton of money over the years, and maybe has been taken for granted recently.

The point of sale is obviously: CLE, CVG, CMH, IND, MKE, PIT, & STL. Kudos to UA to seeing an opportunity for some growth.


DL is only focussed on ATL/MSP/DTW/SLC/LAX/SEA, everywhere else they've let other carriers make major inroads, we'll see how well it works long-term....
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:34 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Antarius wrote:

They'll likely make more money than sitting the aircraft on the ground while paying fixed costs.

Until COVID is behind us, the name of the game is loss minimization.


A bunch of leisure routes on especially high-CASM CRJ-550's will definitely lose money. They will likely end up wishing they had just parked the aircraft (if these routes even end up launching)


Probably true. But still interesting they are chasing after affluent markets like this, with kind of a new product.


Not all leisure is the same, there is a difference between flying a CRJ550 on NYC-MCO, vs flying a CRJ550 to places like MVY, EYW, ACK, PWM, HHH, CHS, e.t.c

Not all leisure is basic economy
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:36 pm

a320flyer wrote:
It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.


DL hasn't seemed very interested in the P2P bandwagon to the Florida/beach destinations, beyond what they already had. They seem content just to force most traffic through ATL with larger metal.

It's interesting because all these P2P routes in places like PNS (or VPS) really chew into DL's dominance in the Panhandle. I guess they're willing to let a lot of that leisure traffic go. It might be the right strategy if all this P2P stuff overloads the market and crashes yields.
 
fun2fly
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Re: UA Adds PNS/HHH Summer Only Focus Points

Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:50 pm

adamblang wrote:
micstatic wrote:
adamblang wrote:
Same. That these are all CRJ-550s tells me "hey Delta flyers, we know you haven't flown us for a while and you had your reasons for doing that, but you'll probably bite on these nonstops rather than connecting in Atlanta, and while we've got you onboard, notice how much better we've gotten than Delta?"



It's a significant stretch to call united's domestic product better than delta. Would be the first time I've heard somebody suggest that.

Lemme know when Delta puts a mid-cabin snack bar on a 50 seat regional jet.


At 20 E+ seats, UA's CR550 has more E+ seats than DL's 319, 320, 220, 73G, E70, E75 (V1) and CR7, not to mention within 1 seat of the 739 and 752. As someone who prefers UA because I get an E+ seat even if I book late vs. no E+ on DL or a E+ middle on DL due to the size of the E+ cabin, it's a real differentiator.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:02 pm

evank516 wrote:
Can the 550 handle the short runway at HHH?

You believe they'd schedule it into there, if it couldn't....?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
stlgph
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:05 pm

But this is essentially the new "business travel."

If I'm working remote, I can dart off for a week to a leisure destination, pretty much at my pleasure, "work" in the morning, play in the afternoon and evening for the week, and mark it down as only 2 PTO instead of 5.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Pi7472000
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:09 pm

stlgph wrote:
But this is essentially the new "business travel."

If I'm working remote, I can dart off for a week to a leisure destination, pretty much at my pleasure, "work" in the morning, play in the afternoon and evening for the week, and mark it down as only 2 PTO instead of 5.


Exactly. I can work from anywhere now. So I can fly to somewhere like SC and work from a hotel space if I want and then start vacation or just work from wherever if I need a break from my house.
 
d8s
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:16 pm

flybry wrote:
I doubt United is just throwing darts at a board here. They have access to travel and demand data from these cities and they’re using that to try to fill some planes that would otherwise be parked or flying empty. Smart move on United’s part. Bravo!


The one problem with travel demand data: it is not relevant this year. Until all cities/states move to full reopening and people feel comfortable traveling data is flawed. These routes are throwing darts at the dart board, nothing in their announcement is earth shaking.
 
evank516
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:19 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Can the 550 handle the short runway at HHH?

You believe they'd schedule it into there, if it couldn't....?


I'm going to respond to your douchey comment by mentioning that UA previously was flying E175s which are proven to operate well onto the shorter runways. I have no clue about the performance of the CRJ-550. So I'll wait for a more intelligent response.
 
flight152
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:21 pm

d8s wrote:
flybry wrote:
I doubt United is just throwing darts at a board here. They have access to travel and demand data from these cities and they’re using that to try to fill some planes that would otherwise be parked or flying empty. Smart move on United’s part. Bravo!


The one problem with travel demand data: it is not relevant this year. Until all cities/states move to full reopening and people feel comfortable traveling data is flawed. These routes are throwing darts at the dart board, nothing in their announcement is earth shaking.

There’s plenty of demand data for what’s happening right now- flights to Florida are full. People are going on vacations.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:23 pm

a320flyer wrote:
It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.

ContinentalEWR wrote:
And it is kind of weird. If DL could not make CVG work, I don't hold much hope for UA. Spitballing at its finest.

DL can and has made CVG work, but so far they have focused on bulking up existing routes rather than trying new ones.


DL has systematically chipped away at CVG for almost 2 decades. It's a goner.
 
RJNUT
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:27 pm

evank516 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Can the 550 handle the short runway at HHH?

You believe they'd schedule it into there, if it couldn't....?


I'm going to respond to your douchey comment by mentioning that UA previously was flying E175s which are proven to operate well onto the shorter runways. I have no clue about the performance of the CRJ-550. So I'll wait for a more intelligent response.




As a side not i noticed IAD-HHH is Commutair this summer with EMB 145. Probably short enough flight to go light on fuel but i assumed Emb170-175 were only jets approved for that airport. Evidently not. The CRJ 200 I can so as a no go , however.
 
OB1504
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:29 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This isn’t a major, sustainable expansion.

This is UA trying to mimic G4 but using idle RJ capacity.

Enjoy summer 2021 dart board routes while they last.

The airlines just got bailed out again :mad:

So they have do something with the money.


I would rather the airlines use the money to start new routes rather than simply add a millionth frequency to city pair that’s already well covered.

micstatic wrote:
adamblang wrote:
kavok wrote:
I really do see this as a UA play to win over some DL flyers, while putting some UA aircraft and crews to use as well. For many of these markets (the ones that weren’t previously AA/CO/US hubs anyway), Northwest (and then Delta after the merger) historically has been the primary heartland carrier for those outside of Chicago. That heartland strategy has made NW and DL a ton of money over the years, and maybe has been taken for granted recently.

Same. That these are all CRJ-550s tells me "hey Delta flyers, we know you haven't flown us for a while and you had your reasons for doing that, but you'll probably bite on these nonstops rather than connecting in Atlanta, and while we've got you onboard, notice how much better we've gotten than Delta?"


It's a significant stretch to call united's domestic product better than delta. Would be the first time I've heard somebody suggest that.


In general I agree (compare a newly refurbished Delta A320 to a United 737 MAX with no in seat IFE), but the CRJ550 is very nice, especially for a regional jet.
 
sxf24
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:41 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

I’d be surprised if these routes collectively made money...


They'll likely make more money than sitting the aircraft on the ground while paying fixed costs.

Until COVID is behind us, the name of the game is loss minimization.


A bunch of leisure routes on especially high-CASM CRJ-550's will definitely lose money. They will likely end up wishing they had just parked the aircraft (if these routes even end up launching)


CPAs usually have minimum utilization and payments. While parking airplanes could avoid fuel and some other variable costs, UAL is paying for airplanes and crews. If they can find routes that cover variable costs and part of fixed costs, they're coming out ahead.

Personally, I think this markets are intriguing since there may be opportunity to actually sell premium seats.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:42 pm

FlyPNS1 wrote:
a320flyer wrote:
It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.


DL hasn't seemed very interested in the P2P bandwagon to the Florida/beach destinations, beyond what they already had. They seem content just to force most traffic through ATL with larger metal.

It's interesting because all these P2P routes in places like PNS (or VPS) really chew into DL's dominance in the Panhandle. I guess they're willing to let a lot of that leisure traffic go. It might be the right strategy if all this P2P stuff overloads the market and crashes yields.


My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: United Announces Major Expansion at CVG

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:01 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This isn’t a major, sustainable expansion.

This is UA trying to mimic G4 but using idle RJ capacity.

Enjoy summer 2021 dart board routes while they last.

Is it all Commutair?
Some of these look like Republic (especially HHH), and Air Whiskey bread and butter runs, as well. Lots of spare midday capacities out there to be used for things such as this.
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:03 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They are trying to steal a piece of the summer driving traffic in these markets.
The thing is, you typically still need a car / ground transportation in these destinations, and if you are hauling a family of 4+ along with all the gear for a beach week vacation, the value proposition of drive vs. drive from many of these markets is tough to overcome.


Not sure that's totally true...markets like PIT-PNS, CLE-PNS, MKE-PNS have never been big drive markets. You simply lose too much time driving...these are all 1,000 mile drives that would likely eat two days (each way) of the typical American one week vacation.

The lodging question is a good one. I do think that there are more and more houses available for summer vacation rentals. A lot of snowbirds used to just leave their homes empty in the summer, now Airbnb and other platforms have really caused an explosion in homes to rent. Plus, if you're willing to stay off the beach, many hotels inland have extra capacity.

Not that I think these routes will all last on UA. As business traffic comes back, I'm sure planes will get moved back. Though in some cases, UA (and DL/AA) will have to adjust to a world where the ratio of leisure to business travel is a bit different.
 
codc10
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:09 pm

evank516 wrote:
Can the 550 handle the short runway at HHH?


With performance to spare.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:11 pm

evank516 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Can the 550 handle the short runway at HHH?

You believe they'd schedule it into there, if it couldn't....?

I'm going to respond to your douchey comment by mentioning that UA previously was flying E175s which are proven to operate well onto the shorter runways. I have no clue about the performance of the CRJ-550. So I'll wait for a more intelligent response.

Hmm, so apparently I was mistaken to assume that'd you'd arrive at the only logical answer, which is:
No, they wouldn't. So of course the aircraft can handle it just fine.

You don't need to know anything about the CRJ550 in particular, to have figured that out..........
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:12 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.


I agree this won't change business travel much and UA probably won't stick to these routes anyway. The bigger risk to DL is that some of the LCCs/ULCCs burrow into these markets more permanently and permanently overfly ATL.

UA may not last, but many of the adds from NK, G4, WN have a higher chance of lasting even after COVID is gone. Obviously, DL has a greater focus on business travel, but even DL needs a lot of leisure travel to make ATL work.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:16 pm

FlyPNS1 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.


I agree this won't change business travel much and UA probably won't stick to these routes anyway. The bigger risk to DL is that some of the LCCs/ULCCs burrow into these markets more permanently and permanently overfly ATL.

UA may not last, but many of the adds from NK, G4, WN have a higher chance of lasting even after COVID is gone. Obviously, DL has a greater focus on business travel, but even DL needs a lot of leisure travel to make ATL work.


You're right. I have the number of options I do on BNA-ATL-RIC because of the amount of traffic that DL carries on BNA-ATL-RSW and FLL-ATL-RIC. I'm just not sure that the panhandle is a big enough piece of the pie that LCC incursion there moves the needle meaningfully on the economics of DL. Even with more (U)LCCs, some folks will prefer DL for the onboard product, the flexibility, or the fact that it flies routes the LCCs don't, and I think those somewhat more discerning leisure travelers are really the ones that make ATL tick.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Capt.Fantastic
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:45 pm

Pre-covid, Delta flew weekend nonstops to CUN from each of these destinations; plus MCO from IND and CMH. Delta never resumed the weekend leisure routes. I believe AA and Frontier picked up some of the Cancun traffic. I guess with Delta moving away from focus cities, United wants to capture more leisure traffic abandoned by Delta. Late last year, United already tapped these markets with nonstops to Florida. Bookings must be good and I hope they continue to do well.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: UA Adds PNS/HHH Summer Only Focus Points

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:48 pm

adamblang wrote:
micstatic wrote:
adamblang wrote:
Same. That these are all CRJ-550s tells me "hey Delta flyers, we know you haven't flown us for a while and you had your reasons for doing that, but you'll probably bite on these nonstops rather than connecting in Atlanta, and while we've got you onboard, notice how much better we've gotten than Delta?"



It's a significant stretch to call united's domestic product better than delta. Would be the first time I've heard somebody suggest that.

Lemme know when Delta puts a mid-cabin snack bar on a 50 seat regional jet.


Hmmm. UA is upguaging some of their 50 seaters to CRJ550s, indeed a nice upgrade. Meanwhile Delta removes/replaces theirs with E175/CRJ9, which are in turn are replaced by A220s, 717s, 319s. Also, they'lve set a hard date for them to be gone in 2 years. Delta for years has had a much lower ratio of 50 seaters than their peers. So no, their relative product is definitely not inferior to UA.
 
kavok
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:50 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.


I agree this won't change business travel much and UA probably won't stick to these routes anyway. The bigger risk to DL is that some of the LCCs/ULCCs burrow into these markets more permanently and permanently overfly ATL.

UA may not last, but many of the adds from NK, G4, WN have a higher chance of lasting even after COVID is gone. Obviously, DL has a greater focus on business travel, but even DL needs a lot of leisure travel to make ATL work.


You're right. I have the number of options I do on BNA-ATL-RIC because of the amount of traffic that DL carries on BNA-ATL-RSW and FLL-ATL-RIC. I'm just not sure that the panhandle is a big enough piece of the pie that LCC incursion there moves the needle meaningfully on the economics of DL. Even with more (U)LCCs, some folks will prefer DL for the onboard product, the flexibility, or the fact that it flies routes the LCCs don't, and I think those somewhat more discerning leisure travelers are really the ones that make ATL tick.



It may also is time to reevaluate the question of why DL was the preferred carrier to so many in the Midwest (outside of Chicago). :

1- 5 years ago, if you were flying to/from the Midwest, most of your connections were either in ORD (AA/UA) or DTW/MSP (DL). For most flyers, DL was preferred because ORD and its congestion issues were avoided. That being said, Chicago has done a lot with improvements to the ORD runway reconfigurations and terminal upgrades... and the difference in “connection quality” between ORD and DTW/MSP now is much closer than it has been historically. Flight operations at ORD have become much more reliable. Point being, travelers today have far less reasons to avoid O'Hare than they did in the past.

2- UA has tried to improve their soft product, and the 550 is just another example of that. Soft product is very subjective and I realize others may feel differently, but to be honest, my experience is that the gap between UA and DL is shrinking.

3- DTW and MSP don’t have the depth breadth of connections that they used to when they were Northwest hubs. Obviously ATL is the Delta mothership, but MSP (a little) and DTW (a lot) have seen many of their small to midsize market flights shift to ATL. This has been less of the case at ORD, and thus with more connection opportunities at ORD, AA/UA can use that to their hub size advantage over DL. DL maximized their profits by forcing ATL connections, but the more they minimize DTW/MSP connection opportunities, the greater risk they face long term in losing Midwest marketshare.

4- In many cases, DL being the lone US3 to offer that nonstop flight to from IND/CMH/etc to somewhere like CUN, MCO, LAX, or CDG is what made the difference for a frequent flyer in that market to be a DL loyalist over AA/UA, even if they still connected in DTW or MSP for many of their other flights. I don’t think DL should take for granted that people in the IND/MKE/CMH etc. markets will still remain loyal to Delta, especially if AA/UA are offering more nonstop destinations that people might fly to.
Last edited by kavok on Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jshank83
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:52 pm

uadc8contrail wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Looks like the MKE routes are on the -200 not -550


based on what UA has said internally, almost all the routes are -550, which is waaaay better.


yes the 550 is waaaay better but, who will operate them? if its nogojet then i have no faith in those running ontime.


Its Gojet for the 550s.
The MKE routes are on Air Wisconsin -200s
 
AmericanAir88
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Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:59 pm

This add seems very F9-ish. However, it is cool to see UA venture into these markets.

I know a lot of people in the midwest who get frustrated due to having to connect in ORD anytime they want to fly UA to somewhere a bit smaller. STL and CMH fliers will definitely appreciate the direct flights.
 
jbs2886
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:14 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:
a320flyer wrote:
It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.


DL hasn't seemed very interested in the P2P bandwagon to the Florida/beach destinations, beyond what they already had. They seem content just to force most traffic through ATL with larger metal.

It's interesting because all these P2P routes in places like PNS (or VPS) really chew into DL's dominance in the Panhandle. I guess they're willing to let a lot of that leisure traffic go. It might be the right strategy if all this P2P stuff overloads the market and crashes yields.


My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.


I agree with these comments - DL is sticking to its "premium" strategy. DL also slashed its fleet so I don't think they are struggling as much as UA and others to place aircraft. DL's aircraft deliveries are probably better matched for recovery. Will DL lose market share? Probably. Will this cause long-term issues? That remains to be seen, but I think it will put DL in a better position financially allowing them to go after (premium) market share when thing are better economically and financially.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: UA Adds PNS/HHH Summer Only Focus Points

Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:24 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
adamblang wrote:
micstatic wrote:


It's a significant stretch to call united's domestic product better than delta. Would be the first time I've heard somebody suggest that.

Lemme know when Delta puts a mid-cabin snack bar on a 50 seat regional jet.


Hmmm. UA is upguaging some of their 50 seaters to CRJ550s, indeed a nice upgrade. Meanwhile Delta removes/replaces theirs with E175/CRJ9, which are in turn are replaced by A220s, 717s, 319s. Also, they'lve set a hard date for them to be gone in 2 years. Delta for years has had a much lower ratio of 50 seaters than their peers. So no, their relative product is definitely not inferior to UA.

hmmm... the CRJ550 is a 50-seater so no upguage.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4852
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:30 pm

In the Breeze thread someone mentioned that they might start flying from the Florida panhandle. I wonder if UA flights from Pensacola have something to do with that.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: UA Adds PNS/HHH Summer Only Focus Points

Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:34 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
adamblang wrote:
Lemme know when Delta puts a mid-cabin snack bar on a 50 seat regional jet.


Hmmm. UA is upguaging some of their 50 seaters to CRJ550s, indeed a nice upgrade. Meanwhile Delta removes/replaces theirs with E175/CRJ9, which are in turn are replaced by A220s, 717s, 319s. Also, they'lve set a hard date for them to be gone in 2 years. Delta for years has had a much lower ratio of 50 seaters than their peers. So no, their relative product is definitely not inferior to UA.

hmmm... the CRJ550 is a 50-seater so no upguage.


Ok touché. But the argument about product isn't about the number of seats in economy. It's the total number of small, cramped E135/45 & CR200 out there with no premium cabin, wifi, overhead bin space, ect that don't resemble mainline product offerings. UA & AA still have a much larger share of those kind of jets vs DL, and a hand full of CRJ700s converted to a 50 seat layout to skirt scope clauses doesn't wipe away that fact.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:56 pm

Just checked Spirit RT CLE to MYR depart 6/1 return 6/7. $115
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    IADCA
    Posts: 2318
    Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:49 pm

    evank516 wrote:
    LAX772LR wrote:
    evank516 wrote:
    Can the 550 handle the short runway at HHH?

    You believe they'd schedule it into there, if it couldn't....?


    I'm going to respond to your douchey comment by mentioning that UA previously was flying E175s which are proven to operate well onto the shorter runways. I have no clue about the performance of the CRJ-550. So I'll wait for a more intelligent response.


    The 550 is a CR7 outside with a less-dense cabin. You're basically flying CR7 performance at CR2 weights. CR7s are the only airliners that operate to ASE, an airport that has severe size and performance restrictions. In other words, a heavier version of the 550 operates places the 175 can't. Does that answer your question?
     
    nc3rd
    Posts: 123
    Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:52 pm

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:08 pm

    LCDFlight wrote:
    nc3rd wrote:
    High yielding?


    60% premium seating.

    The RASM of the airplane ought to be the highest in UA's network, yes.

    Theyre not going to get a whole lot of people to pay a premium going from PIT to MYR. MYR aint that kinda place if youve ever been.
    The views written above are mine and mine alone and do not represent any official information from any airline or company
     
    fun2fly
    Posts: 1690
    Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:11 pm

    nc3rd wrote:
    LCDFlight wrote:
    nc3rd wrote:
    High yielding?


    60% premium seating.

    The RASM of the airplane ought to be the highest in UA's network, yes.

    Theyre not going to get a whole lot of people to pay a premium going from PIT to MYR. MYR aint that kinda place if youve ever been.


    I'd sure pay more to fly UA vs. NK and so would 49 others UA is betting. Not a big leap. It will be interesting to see if UA ups frequencies.
     
    MaxTrimm
    Posts: 371
    Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:20 pm

    Not sure people are realizing how small these operations are. 3x weekly is 150 seats. That will not be hard to fill at all in the Summer. These airlines aren’t paying many people to do market research if they think somethings gonna be a big money pit bust. We have seen for a year now airlines are willing to park planes. Here, more money is to be made (or less money is to be lost) doing these low-risk routes. If they fail, I don’t think it will be a big deal to anyone involved.
     
    luckyone
    Posts: 3971
    Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:16 pm

    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyPNS1 wrote:
    a320flyer wrote:
    It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.


    DL hasn't seemed very interested in the P2P bandwagon to the Florida/beach destinations, beyond what they already had. They seem content just to force most traffic through ATL with larger metal.

    It's interesting because all these P2P routes in places like PNS (or VPS) really chew into DL's dominance in the Panhandle. I guess they're willing to let a lot of that leisure traffic go. It might be the right strategy if all this P2P stuff overloads the market and crashes yields.


    My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.

    What may also be overlooked here is that UA doesn't have an effective Southeastern hub to funnel that traffic to Florida leisure markets. Delta has been trading on that for decades at ATL, and AA has CLT for the role as well. It's possible that over the long term UA may build these new point-to-point leisure routes into something new. Guess we shall see.
     
    FlyPNS1
    Posts: 5546
    Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:24 am

    luckyone wrote:
    What may also be overlooked here is that UA doesn't have an effective Southeastern hub to funnel that traffic to Florida leisure markets. Delta has been trading on that for decades at ATL, and AA has CLT for the role as well. It's possible that over the long term UA may build these new point-to-point leisure routes into something new. Guess we shall see.


    Maybe, but I don't think UA is really using the right plane. The 550 is a pretty high CASM plane for these routes...especially as fuel prices rise. Plus, UA's entire fleet is built around more premium demand with more Y+ and F seats which is tough in some of these markets. How many people are willing to pay extra for Y+ or F on a 2 hour leisure flight to MYR or PNS. A few for sure.

    I do agree with others that it's not a lot of capacity since it's only 150 seats a week in a market like PIT-PNS. Not really hard to fill. It's just whether the yield mix can work. Near-term, I think UA will take what it can get because they've got a lot of 50 seaters with no where to go, but long-term not sure it works for UA. However, some of these routes I think could be taken by NK or F9 (if they're not already present).
     
    alohashirts
    Posts: 163
    Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:45 pm

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:25 am

    luckyone wrote:
    Cubsrule wrote:
    FlyPNS1 wrote:

    DL hasn't seemed very interested in the P2P bandwagon to the Florida/beach destinations, beyond what they already had. They seem content just to force most traffic through ATL with larger metal.

    It's interesting because all these P2P routes in places like PNS (or VPS) really chew into DL's dominance in the Panhandle. I guess they're willing to let a lot of that leisure traffic go. It might be the right strategy if all this P2P stuff overloads the market and crashes yields.


    My sense is that these additions will not meaningfully change the picture for business travelers either to or from the Panhandle. DL just offers so many more options. And when the service goes away, the leisure travelers who have DL loyalty either because of flexibility or because they use DL for business will just go right back to DL. In other words, what's the upside for DL of playing in this sandbox? I think reducing cash burn is the only answer.

    What may also be overlooked here is that UA doesn't have an effective Southeastern hub to funnel that traffic to Florida leisure markets. Delta has been trading on that for decades at ATL, and AA has CLT for the role as well. It's possible that over the long term UA may build these new point-to-point leisure routes into something new. Guess we shall see.


    100% agree. After the UA/CO merger dust settled, UA really should have tried to establish a southeastern hub in BNA. Too late now. I don’t see many of these new UA additions lasting long term.
     
    keithvh2001
    Posts: 51
    Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:21 pm

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:31 am

    ContinentalEWR wrote:
    a320flyer wrote:
    It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.

    ContinentalEWR wrote:
    And it is kind of weird. If DL could not make CVG work, I don't hold much hope for UA. Spitballing at its finest.

    DL can and has made CVG work, but so far they have focused on bulking up existing routes rather than trying new ones.


    DL has systematically chipped away at CVG for almost 2 decades. It's a goner.


    DL isn't going to bat much of an eye at UA adding CVG-CHS/HHH/PNS. Those are lower-yield routes, they are drivable places from Cinci, and a chunk of the connecting traffic uses AA through CLT already anyway.

    CVG-PWM is arguably the route that would alarm them most. CVG-PWM O&D traffic is only in the mid-20s (as someone else above mentioned), but it could affect CVG-BOS, which is a lucrative monopoly route for DL. It's the only route from CVG to New England, I believe (CVG-BDL used to exist, but no longer).
     
    ContinentalEWR
    Posts: 4465
    Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:41 am

    keithvh2001 wrote:
    ContinentalEWR wrote:
    a320flyer wrote:
    It will be interesting to see if DL responds by starting to explore less-than-daily routes from CVG. Up until now they've stuck with routes they could do daily/mainline such as LAS/DEN/MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA. G4 is also doing up to 4x/day on CVG-VPS this summer.


    DL can and has made CVG work, but so far they have focused on bulking up existing routes rather than trying new ones.


    DL has systematically chipped away at CVG for almost 2 decades. It's a goner.


    DL isn't going to bat much of an eye at UA adding CVG-CHS/HHH/PNS. Those are lower-yield routes, they are drivable places from Cinci, and a chunk of the connecting traffic uses AA through CLT already anyway.

    CVG-PWM is arguably the route that would alarm them most. CVG-PWM O&D traffic is only in the mid-20s (as someone else above mentioned), but it could affect CVG-BOS, which is a lucrative monopoly route for DL. It's the only route from CVG to New England, I believe (CVG-BDL used to exist, but no longer).


    DL couldn't care less what UA does at CVG. These are anyway, leisure routes and not business markets. Right now, all there is to chase is domestic leisure heading into late spring and summer and can't blame UA for trying.
     
    ty97
    Posts: 680
    Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 1:06 am

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 am

    I do expect that many of the routes that the airlines (not just UA) are adding this summer will turn out to pandemic-temporary, but it will certainly be interesting to see what does work and what might return in the future. It certainly is causing airlines to think outside the box.
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Posts: 697
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

    Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:33 am

    Interesting story on CNN website https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/25/business ... index.html
    about how expensive renting a car is in Florida and other vacation spots now. $300 per day if you can get one. Appears the rental companies have reduced their fleets so much that prices have skyrocketed. And the ability to get more vehicles is limited by supply chain issues.
    Unless you like UBERing in the era of COVID, this is going to hurt these new flights as many people will drive so they have a vehicle.
      300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
       
      freakyrat
      Posts: 2308
      Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

      Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

      Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:07 am

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      Interesting story on CNN website https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/25/business ... index.html
      about how expensive renting a car is in Florida and other vacation spots now. $300 per day if you can get one. Appears the rental companies have reduced their fleets so much that prices have skyrocketed. And the ability to get more vehicles is limited by supply chain issues.
      Unless you like UBERing in the era of COVID, this is going to hurt these new flights as many people will drive so they have a vehicle.



      I'm happy I'm not travelling to Florida and I already made all my car reservations well in advance.
       
      Jshank83
      Posts: 4326
      Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

      Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

      Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:08 am

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      Interesting story on CNN website https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/25/business ... index.html
      about how expensive renting a car is in Florida and other vacation spots now. $300 per day if you can get one. Appears the rental companies have reduced their fleets so much that prices have skyrocketed. And the ability to get more vehicles is limited by supply chain issues.
      Unless you like UBERing in the era of COVID, this is going to hurt these new flights as many people will drive so they have a vehicle.


      PHX prices are crazy.
       
      MohawkWeekend
      Posts: 697
      Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

      Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

      Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:17 am

      i bet you can get a great rate on a one-way rental to any of these hot markets. Fly home.
        300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
         
        micstatic
        Posts: 841
        Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

        Re: UA Adds PNS/HHH Summer Only Focus Points

        Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:43 am

        adamblang wrote:
        micstatic wrote:
        adamblang wrote:
        Same. That these are all CRJ-550s tells me "hey Delta flyers, we know you haven't flown us for a while and you had your reasons for doing that, but you'll probably bite on these nonstops rather than connecting in Atlanta, and while we've got you onboard, notice how much better we've gotten than Delta?"



        It's a significant stretch to call united's domestic product better than delta. Would be the first time I've heard somebody suggest that.

        Lemme know when Delta puts a mid-cabin snack bar on a 50 seat regional jet.


        I'm perfectly fine waiting until normal service. There is only so much junkfood I want to eat anyway. On Delta I would likely be a on a mainline jet which trumps the 550 to me.
         
        xjetflyer2001
        Posts: 322
        Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

        Re: United announces new summer point-to-point routes

        Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:47 pm

        Jshank83 wrote:
        MohawkWeekend wrote:
        Interesting story on CNN website https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/25/business ... index.html
        about how expensive renting a car is in Florida and other vacation spots now. $300 per day if you can get one. Appears the rental companies have reduced their fleets so much that prices have skyrocketed. And the ability to get more vehicles is limited by supply chain issues.
        Unless you like UBERing in the era of COVID, this is going to hurt these new flights as many people will drive so they have a vehicle.


        PHX prices are crazy.


        I'm renting a car in May from TPA and at airport it was over $300 for 4 days, just a mile off the airport I'm paying $167 for 4 days

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