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willfinn
Topic Author
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:13 pm

According to YLE, Finnair has signed a letter of intent for the upcoming all-electric (?) Heart ES-19. These are ”intended to replace the ATR on domestic routes” under 400 kms.

Personally, I’m surprised that a no-nonsense operator is adpting this sort of tech; the tone of the article implies that AY is serious about introducing the type.

Are there forum members here who can shed light on this enterprise? I have no knowledge outside press releases and Wikipedia articles.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11855144
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3532
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:25 pm

Here is there website: https://heartaerospace.com/

They don’t seem to state the operating advantages necessarily of the aircraft.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3006
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:14 pm

This would be pretty awesome if it were to happen. The design looks like a cross between a DO-328 prop and a modern Dash 7.

4 Engines 4 Short Haul!
 
LH707330
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:08 pm

lesfalls wrote:
Here is there website: https://heartaerospace.com/

They don’t seem to state the operating advantages necessarily of the aircraft.

Scroll down a bit and you'll find this:


"Cost-Effective
75% cost savings
in fuel and 50%
in maintenance

Electrification changes the equation for regional air travel. Electric aircraft are affordable to buy, operate and maintain. Simple, reliable electric motors reduce maintenance costs by 90% compared to turboprops, and intelligent electronic monitoring reduces inspection needs. Most importantly, fuel costs go down by 50-75%."

If they can deliver on that, I'd say it's a big win.
 
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leleko747
Posts: 505
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:16 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:19 pm

In a world where airplanes are all becoming boring twinjets, it's so cool to see a modern Dash-7-esque bird! Really hope to see this plane reach the skies!
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
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Aesma
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Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:21 pm

Looking at the beefy engine nacelles I'm guessing some batteries are there.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4518
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:34 pm

Do they plug it in to recharge after each flight? Or do they just replace the batteries with charged ones after each flight?
 
FlyHossD
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:47 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
This would be pretty awesome if it were to happen. The design looks like a cross between a DO-328 prop and a modern Dash 7.

4 Engines 4 Short Haul!


No doubt some customers will complain about the props!
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Prost
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:51 pm

I think most European customers will be impressed with such an environmental airplane.
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3532
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 am

LH707330 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
Here is there website: https://heartaerospace.com/

They don’t seem to state the operating advantages necessarily of the aircraft.

Scroll down a bit and you'll find this:


"Cost-Effective
75% cost savings
in fuel and 50%
in maintenance

Electrification changes the equation for regional air travel. Electric aircraft are affordable to buy, operate and maintain. Simple, reliable electric motors reduce maintenance costs by 90% compared to turboprops, and intelligent electronic monitoring reduces inspection needs. Most importantly, fuel costs go down by 50-75%."

If they can deliver on that, I'd say it's a big win.


Truly fascinating! Reminds me of all the scooter sharing companies that charge not so much (due to electric batteries) in Europe. Makes me wonder around what cost they will be selling the aircraft at?

For the first time a new passenger can maybe be bought at not an expensive price (in the millions).
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3006
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:49 am

FlyHossD wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
This would be pretty awesome if it were to happen. The design looks like a cross between a DO-328 prop and a modern Dash 7.

4 Engines 4 Short Haul!


No doubt some customers will complain about the props!


For a 19 seater, I doubt it. Especially if their trip costs are 1/2 that of a comparable Jet A fuelled 19 seater and no carbon levies to pay. I’d imagine “jets” will be fuelled by hydrogen or a low carbon biofuel.

It’ll take time, but it’s exciting to see developments like this. With battery swapping, turns can probably be kept to very reasonable lengths.
 
kaitak
Posts: 10071
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:33 am

willfinn wrote:
According to YLE, Finnair has signed a letter of intent for the upcoming all-electric (?) Heart ES-19. These are ”intended to replace the ATR on domestic routes” under 400 kms.

Personally, I’m surprised that a no-nonsense operator is adpting this sort of tech; the tone of the article implies that AY is serious about introducing the type.

Are there forum members here who can shed light on this enterprise? I have no knowledge outside press releases and Wikipedia articles.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11855144


Just for clarification, the LoI in this case is a Letter of Interest, not a Letter of Intent. Legally, they would be quite different, but given the newness of Electric Heart and of the technology involved, the Letter of Interest would offer various "out" clauses in case the project did not go as planned.

That said, I think it is a very exciting and interesting project. From small acorns ...

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -aircraft/
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3811
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:33 am

So they claim "Our zero-emissions, low-noise aircraft can operate on 750m runways" but it only saves 50-75% on fuel cost. How is that zero emissions.
 
Someone83
Posts: 5323
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:25 am

rbavfan wrote:
So they claim "Our zero-emissions, low-noise aircraft can operate on 750m runways" but it only saves 50-75% on fuel cost. How is that zero emissions.


Electricity isn’t free
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:10 am

willfinn wrote:
Personally, I’m surprised that a no-nonsense operator is adpting this sort of tech; the tone of the article implies that AY is serious about introducing the type.


I really wouldn't take it for much more than PR fluff, greenwashing essentially. A lot of airlines are talking up this sort of stuff at the moment. I believe SAS signed some worthless non-binding deal for the Heart ES-19 as well. United signed something last week. Wideroe is supporting the Tecnam P-volt.

FYI, I am all in favour of these companies and electric aircraft, I am just being realistic about it. There are a lot of contenders vying to build an electric airliner, and I have my serious doubts that most of them will ever make it into the air, much less become certified. Look at the Mitsubishi Regional Jet flop to see how much a somewhat experienced aeronautical firm could screw up when it came to designing a certifiable aircraft, and then consider that most of these electric aircraft projects are designed by companies with zero experience in that field. There is also a fairly good chance that someone experienced like ATR (who are actually working on an electrified version of the ATR), Embraer or De Havilland Canada will break into the market with variants of existing or future aircraft, killing the prospects for the new entrants.


Dominion301 wrote:
This would be pretty awesome if it were to happen. The design looks like a cross between a DO-328 prop and a modern Dash 7.

4 Engines 4 Short Haul!


It does look pretty nice, but it is only a 19-seater. Might be able to stretch it a bit to 30 seats though.
 
ABpositive
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:27 am

Someone83 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
So they claim "Our zero-emissions, low-noise aircraft can operate on 750m runways" but it only saves 50-75% on fuel cost. How is that zero emissions.


Electricity isn’t free


I guess it depends on the source of electricity (e.g. solar or wind vs coal).

The other cost advantage I see is when emission liability charges come in.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1723
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:29 am

I think this is mostly just optics. The technogy still has a long way to go before it's ready for day to day regional service. It's time will come eventually but not yet.
 
willfinn
Topic Author
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:11 am

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11855144[/quote]

Just for clarification, the LoI in this case is a Letter of Interest, not a Letter of Intent. Legally, they would be quite different, but given the newness of Electric Heart and of the technology involved, the Letter of Interest would offer various "out" clauses in case the project did not go as planned.

That said, I think it is a very exciting and interesting project. From small acorns ...

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -aircraft/[/quote]

Thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood the Finnish concept ”aiesopimus” mentioned in the article. This makes more sense now.
 
willfinn
Topic Author
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:16 am

kaitak wrote:
willfinn wrote:
According to YLE, Finnair has signed a letter of intent for the upcoming all-electric (?) Heart ES-19. These are ”intended to replace the ATR on domestic routes” under 400 kms.

Personally, I’m surprised that a no-nonsense operator is adpting this sort of tech; the tone of the article implies that AY is serious about introducing the type.

Are there forum members here who can shed light on this enterprise? I have no knowledge outside press releases and Wikipedia articles.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11855144


Just for clarification, the LoI in this case is a Letter of Interest, not a Letter of Intent. Legally, they would be quite different, but given the newness of Electric Heart and of the technology involved, the Letter of Interest would offer various "out" clauses in case the project did not go as planned.

That said, I think it is a very exciting and interesting project. From small acorns ...

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -aircraft/


Thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood the Finnish concept ”aiesopimus”. This makes more sense now.

(Edited for messed-up quotes)
 
willfinn
Topic Author
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:55 pm

VSMUT wrote:
willfinn wrote:
Personally, I’m surprised that a no-nonsense operator is adpting this sort of tech; the tone of the article implies that AY is serious about introducing the type.


I really wouldn't take it for much more than PR fluff, greenwashing essentially. A lot of airlines are talking up this sort of stuff at the moment. I believe SAS signed some worthless non-binding deal for the Heart ES-19 as well. United signed something last week. Wideroe is supporting the Tecnam P-volt.


I completely agree; this is virtue-signalling typical of Scandinavia.

However, 19 seats would eliminate the need for an FA. The current fleet of ATRs does not support a viable network to small regional destinations. These destinations could be served more economically by the eco-planes. AY lost the recent round of bidding for the government-subsidized routes. Some here suggest that AY is actively trying to get rid of this part of the business, and I’m not convinced that eco-planes would miraculously turn the tide... but getting rid of FAs and fuel costs might help.

[quote=”VSMUT”]FYI, I am all in favour of these companies and electric aircraft, I am just being realistic about it. There are a lot of contenders vying to build an electric airliner, and I have my serious doubts that most of them will ever make it into the air, much less become certified. Look at the Mitsubishi Regional Jet flop to see how much a somewhat experienced aeronautical firm could screw up when it came to designing a certifiable aircraft, and then consider that most of these electric aircraft projects are designed by companies with zero experience in that field. There is also a fairly good chance that someone experienced like ATR (who are actually working on an electrified version of the ATR), Embraer or De Havilland Canada will break into the market with variants of existing or future aircraft, killing the prospects for the new entrants.


Dominion301 wrote:
This would be pretty awesome if it were to happen. The design looks like a cross between a DO-328 prop and a modern Dash 7.

4 Engines 4 Short Haul!


It does look pretty nice, but it is only a 19-seater. Might be able to stretch it a bit to 30 seats though.[/quote]
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:23 pm

willfinn wrote:
However, 19 seats would eliminate the need for an FA. The current fleet of ATRs does not support a viable network to small regional destinations. These destinations could be served more economically by the eco-planes. AY lost the recent round of bidding for the government-subsidized routes. Some here suggest that AY is actively trying to get rid of this part of the business, and I’m not convinced that eco-planes would miraculously turn the tide... but getting rid of FAs and fuel costs might help.


Do you realize how little flight attendants are paid in Europe? Trust me, the savings on that account are next to nothing.
 
willfinn
Topic Author
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:49 pm

VSMUT wrote:
willfinn wrote:
However, 19 seats would eliminate the need for an FA. The current fleet of ATRs does not support a viable network to small regional destinations. These destinations could be served more economically by the eco-planes. AY lost the recent round of bidding for the government-subsidized routes. Some here suggest that AY is actively trying to get rid of this part of the business, and I’m not convinced that eco-planes would miraculously turn the tide... but getting rid of FAs and fuel costs might help.


Do you realize how little flight attendants are paid in Europe? Trust me, the savings on that account are next to nothing.


I know how little they are paid in Finland. That’s one of the reasons why I suspect this is virtue-signalling above all else.

The point I was trying to make is the hard business case and the eco-spin could potentially co-exist in the same project. However, I do not believe the eco-spin, in any way, turns these flight profitable.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1905
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:59 pm

leleko747 wrote:
In a world where airplanes are all becoming boring twinjets, it's so cool to see a modern Dash-7-esque bird! Really hope to see this plane reach the skies!


I agree, nice to see some variety. Hope it makes its way to the States.
 
Someone83
Posts: 5323
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: AY signs LOI for electric Heart ES-19

Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:00 pm

ES-19 already has about 140-150 letter of intent for the aicraft, SAS, Widerøe and several other has already signed theirs, so Finnair is sort of "late to the party" here

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