Pretty interesting to see direct flights between Gibraltar and Spain. Iberia’s flight to GIB from MAD stopped in 2008. Thoughts?

Source: https://www.chronicle.gi/new-flights-fr ... -confirms/

I'm always glad to see GIB getting new connections. This is a fairly odd one though, honestly I thought only MAD and BCN would have anywhere near the demand for such a route, but I guess Volotea see something I don't! I guess neither of them have any great love for the central Spanish government, so it helps to have other friends.

I'm guessing a way to connect GIB, Algeciras, Ceuta and Melilla (maybe) to the Basque country? Looks like it's seasonal, so maybe beach traffic?

Does Volotea have a flight from BIO to the UK they might want to get connections for?

I think the Gibraltar Gov is handing out a lot of cash to support routes at the moment hence Eastern to SOU and BHX also.

A continual freeze and thaw in border relations...
Painful for the many who live in Spain and work in Gib or vv.

Having relatives in the area, they tend to use Malaga Airport (130km away) for the better connections, unless flying to the UK (at least when the border is normalised)

MrHMSH wrote:

I'm always glad to see GIB getting new connections. This is a fairly odd one though, honestly I thought only MAD and BCN would have anywhere near the demand for such a route, but I guess Volotea see something I don't! I guess neither of them have any great love for the central Spanish government, so it helps to have other friends.

The airport is binational (and in any case Gibraltar is to remain in Schengen). Sotogrande (a very exclusive holiday resort where many wealthy people working in Gibraltar live) is a few kilometres away from GIB. Tarifa (very popular for surfers) is not far either on the other direction. Plus all the people living in that area (Algeciras, La Línea, San Roque). Málaga airport to Gibraltar is "only" about 130 km. but in summer the motorway is hell with busy traffic.

The Basque Country is quite a wealthy region with a lot of demand for sun (considering weather in Northern Spain even in summer can be quite bad). So I see this is a route to fly vacationers living in the Basque Country to the area around Gibraltar.

Interesting. Will this flight be treated like a flight inside of Spain or as an international flight after arriving at Gibraltar? I imagine no immigration check but only a customs check by UK officials.

I think if GIB was such a lucrative destination then I'm sure IB wouldn't have pulled their MAD route all those years ago. Admire Volotea for their out-of-the-box thinking with a BIO service, wonder why they chose BIO over BCN or MAD. Volotea seems to have expanded their A320 fleet enormously recently - hope it doesn't end in tears.

Volotea having a base at BIO, but not at either BCN or MAD might be why they are not doing a BCN-GIB or MAD-GIB route
That said, it's not clear why BIO-GIB will work for Volotea if MAD-GIB didn't work for Iberia

vedatil4 wrote:

Interesting. Will this flight be treated like a flight inside of Spain or as an international flight after arriving at Gibraltar? I imagine no immigration check but only a customs check by UK officials.

The flight is international. Just like Lisbon to Geneva is international while passengers don’t need to to through passport control (inmigration) at the border.

GIB set up allows passenger to exit through either side of “The fence”. You might exit to the North to Spain, and thus from MAD, BIO or HEL, no further checks where needed. From mainland UK, the typical checks were carried out as any other arrival from the UK. Or you can use the GIB exit where to must cross the border when coming from Schengen. Right now the only flights using GIB are coming from mainland UK so it’s pretty easy.

Now if Gibraltar falls within the Schengen area (I’m not sure how it developed), the whole airport will be Schengen and thus flights from Schengen are exempt from passport controls and flights from 3rd countries must go through inmigration at the Schengen border just like any other airport it the Schengen area.

Thanks for clarifying.

I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.

I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.

I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?

Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.

vedatil4 wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.

I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.

I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.

I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?

Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.

There is no need for the immigration officers to be Spanish. If Gibraltar is in Schengen the same officers who checked passports before brexit can continue to do so they just enforce Schengen rules. Every Schengen country has its own border force they don’t let the country next door manage their affairs.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Volotea having a base at BIO, but not at either BCN or MAD might be why they are not doing a BCN-GIB or MAD-GIB route
That said, it's not clear why BIO-GIB will work for Volotea if MAD-GIB didn't work for Iberia

Volotea is very smart and efficient when it comes to finding small markets and then create them into a market (typically seasonal though). An example was their Mykonos-VCE only had 400 people travelling the route annyal before they started it while today the carry over 20,000 on the route.

More info about their tactics can be found below: https://www.flightglobal.com/interview- ... 99.article

seansasLCY wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.

I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.

I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.

I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?

Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.

There is no need for the immigration officers to be Spanish. If Gibraltar is in Schengen the same officers who checked passports before brexit can continue to do so they just enforce Schengen rules. Every Schengen country has its own border force they don’t let the country next door manage their affairs.

But wasn't the UK outside of Schengen before and after Brexit? So UK officials could be enforcing Schengen rules and checking passports on passengers arriving from the UK?

vedatil4 wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.

I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.

I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.

I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?

Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.

Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?

sevenair wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.

I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.

I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.

I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?

Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.

Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?

It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.

So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.

I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.

Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.

I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.

I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.

This new flight from BIO to GIB is likely to face legal challenges resulting from the regulatory framework that is currently in place. Newspaper “EuropaSur” has consulted the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and here’s the relevant bit of information from the article (in Spanish):

• Gibraltar is currently excluded from the EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, and that somehow prevents flights from GIB to airports in the EU.

Source (Spanish only): https://www.europasur.es/gibraltar/Volo ... 44887.html

vinaixa wrote:

Pretty interesting to see direct flights between Gibraltar and Spain. Iberia’s flight to GIB from MAD stopped in 2008. Thoughts?

Source: https://www.chronicle.gi/new-flights-fr ... -confirms/

Madrid is relatively easy and cheap to get to by train or bus, so it's probably not profitable enough. Gibraltar airport serves not only Gibraltar itself but (especially for Spanish pax) the surrounding area such as Algeciras and the Costa del Sol, which faces competition from Malaga airport, the high speed train network, cars and buses (as a cheaper option).

Maybe Bilbao could work, because it's useful to get to/from the north of Spain and over that distance a lot of other options become impractical.

vedatil4 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

Thanks for clarifying.

I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.

I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.

I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?

Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.

Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?

It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.

So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.

I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.

Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.

I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.

I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.

I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.

Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.

Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?

vinaixa wrote:

This new flight from BIO to GIB is likely to face legal challenges resulting from the regulatory framework that is currently in place. Newspaper “EuropaSur” has consulted the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and here’s the relevant bit of information from the article (in Spanish):

• Gibraltar is currently excluded from the EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, and that somehow prevents flights from GIB to airports in the EU.

Source (Spanish only): https://www.europasur.es/gibraltar/Volo ... 44887.html

Thank you for sharing.

So last December both parties had just agreed that negotiations were needed for an agreement but an actual, legal agreement that would allow a flight like this to happen wasn't made? That's how I understood the article. Forgive me, but my Spanish comprehension isn't 100%.

In any case, it sure seemed odd that this flight was announced so soon after Brexit, from Bilbao not Madrid, and to that airport knowing some of the history.

peterinlisbon wrote:

vinaixa wrote:

Pretty interesting to see direct flights between Gibraltar and Spain. Iberia’s flight to GIB from MAD stopped in 2008. Thoughts?

Source: https://www.chronicle.gi/new-flights-fr ... -confirms/

Madrid is relatively easy and cheap to get to by train or bus, so it's probably not profitable enough. Gibraltar airport serves not only Gibraltar itself but (especially for Spanish pax) the surrounding area such as Algeciras and the Costa del Sol, which faces competition from Malaga airport, the high speed train network, cars and buses (as a cheaper option).

Maybe Bilbao could work, because it's useful to get to/from the north of Spain and over that distance a lot of other options become impractical.

True. But wouldn't Gibraltar benefit greatly from direct flights from all over Europe if the details for the Bilbao flight are figured out?

Also, I don't think the Spanish side of any negotiations would be excited to help an airport directly on a very small strip of land they could claim is really theirs. The announcement of this flight seemed strange knowing the historical tensions between both parties. It wasn't that long ago when you couldn't even walk across the border there.

Again, for me this is all academic as a third party observer. We're friends with UK and EU citizens the same.

peterinlisbon wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?

It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.

So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.

I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.

Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.

I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.

I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.

I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.

Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.

Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.

vedatil4 wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.

So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.

I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.

Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.

I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.

I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.

I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.

Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.

Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.

It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.

If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.

Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.

Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.

As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.

peterinlisbon wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.

Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.

Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.

It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.

If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.

Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.

Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.

As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.

The issue isn’t the London side. It’s Spain. The terminal was designed to have two sides like Basel. Spain agreed to it but then pulled out so it was never completed. For years it has been Spain closing the border and creating long queues and on purposefully slowing down the border crossing. Neither London nor Gibraltar have any issue working with Spain. The only thing is Spain must recognize that it is the UK.

The UK was happy for Gibraltar to be part of the EU deal but Spain objected and wanted a separate deal so it could further its aims. It threatened to veto the deal if this wasn’t the case.

Hopefully both sides will work together. Gibraltar has a decent potential. The new terminal is very nice and barely used.

peterinlisbon wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.

Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.

Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.

It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.

If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.

Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.

Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.

As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.

Even if another terminal was built people would be going through the ramp to probably get on flights to the UK. Possibly a new refugee escape route in the making? (The Calais of Southern Europe).

lesfalls wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.

It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.

If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.

Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.

Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.

As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.

Even if another terminal was built people would be going through the ramp to probably get on flights to the UK. Possibly a new refugee escape route in the making? (The Calais of Southern Europe).

That could be a problem, but on the other hand I guess you´d be in Spanish jurisdiction either inside the Spanish terminal or on a Spanish plane and any troublemakers would be handed over to Spanish police. It´s not as if the border is new and Gibraltar is close enough to swim across to anyway.

Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website

But wasn't UK outside Schengen even before Brexit?

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website

No surprise knowing the tense history of the place and the airport location itself.

In fact, the Spanish side doesn't even call the border a "border" there. They use the word "verja" which translates into "gate". A gate which was closed from 1969 to 1982. I think the gate was only opened because of EU membership on both sides.

So the news of this flight, and the sensitive details about Schengen and Spanish Frontex officers that would need to work at the airport, made the idea unlikely from my vantage point.

Again, not taking sides on this territorial dispute.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website

Yes, looks like it’s been cancelled. An article by EuropaSur cites lack of permits and no work happening to secure the legal protections in time for the launch.

Source (in Spanish): https://www.europasur.es/gibraltar/Volo ... 44977.html

Another source in English (Gibraltar’s local news corp) gives a similar explanation: uncertainty over whether the permits will be granted in time. But efforts are not being abandoned altogether.

Source: https://www.gbc.gi/news/volotea-removes ... be-granted

vinaixa wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website

Yes, looks like it’s been cancelled. An article by EuropaSur cites lack of permits and no work happening to secure the legal protections in time for the launch.

Source (in Spanish): https://www.europasur.es/gibraltar/Volo ... 44977.html

Another source in English (Gibraltar’s local news corp) gives a similar explanation: uncertainty over whether the permits will be granted in time. But efforts are not being abandoned altogether.

Source: https://www.gbc.gi/news/volotea-removes ... be-granted

I think both sides hold positions they probably won't ever budge on during negotiations. It's not hopeless but if we start drawing a graph of time vs likelihood, the line will become asymptotic to the x-axis.

Question: When the UK was still inside the EU, but as I understand it, outside of Schengen, were there lots of flights from Europe to Gibraltar? If not, why?

Looks like this thread has run it's course.

vedatil4 wrote:

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

Not to get off topic, but the CBX Terminal at TIJ has been open and operating quite well since December 2015.

Mexico has continually said they do not want US Customs and Immigration officers on their soil, hence the lack of Pre-clearance from Mexico, even though places like CUN, SJD and PVR would benefit from it.

phllax wrote:

vedatil4 wrote:

What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.

Not to get off topic, but the CBX Terminal at TIJ has been open and operating quite well since December 2015.

Mexico has continually said they do not want US Customs and Immigration officers on their soil, hence the lack of Pre-clearance from Mexico, even though places like CUN, SJD and PVR would benefit from it.

So well in fact that, even during the pandemic, they're building the international terminal on the Mexico side and planning to add more immigration check lanes on the USA side.

You're not kidding about those three airports. You can fly from there to almost any major city in the USA now. USA Pre-clearance would definitely help.

I think the sensitive issue for the Mexican side is having USA officers come armed onto their soil. That doesn't seem as insurmountable to me as the sovereignty dispute at the Gibraltar airport strip of land.

Also, over here we have NAFTA (now USMCA) trade deals with Mexico. Compare that to the other side of the pond where UK has left the EU because of Brexit.

What's fascinating are the little side effects of that yes/no decision in 2016; the status of Gibraltar being one of them.

That Volotea flight idea was doomed from the start IMHO.

Here's a radio show discussion about this flight I found on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q84gnAA9bsQ