Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
MrHMSH wrote:I'm always glad to see GIB getting new connections. This is a fairly odd one though, honestly I thought only MAD and BCN would have anywhere near the demand for such a route, but I guess Volotea see something I don't! I guess neither of them have any great love for the central Spanish government, so it helps to have other friends.
vedatil4 wrote:Interesting. Will this flight be treated like a flight inside of Spain or as an international flight after arriving at Gibraltar? I imagine no immigration check but only a customs check by UK officials.
vedatil4 wrote:Thanks for clarifying.
I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.
I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.
I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?
Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.
davidjohnson6 wrote:Volotea having a base at BIO, but not at either BCN or MAD might be why they are not doing a BCN-GIB or MAD-GIB route
That said, it's not clear why BIO-GIB will work for Volotea if MAD-GIB didn't work for Iberia
seansasLCY wrote:vedatil4 wrote:Thanks for clarifying.
I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.
I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.
I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?
Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.
There is no need for the immigration officers to be Spanish. If Gibraltar is in Schengen the same officers who checked passports before brexit can continue to do so they just enforce Schengen rules. Every Schengen country has its own border force they don’t let the country next door manage their affairs.
vedatil4 wrote:Thanks for clarifying.
I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.
I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.
I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?
Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.
sevenair wrote:vedatil4 wrote:Thanks for clarifying.
I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.
I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.
I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?
Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.
Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?
vinaixa wrote:Pretty interesting to see direct flights between Gibraltar and Spain. Iberia’s flight to GIB from MAD stopped in 2008. Thoughts?
Source: https://www.chronicle.gi/new-flights-fr ... -confirms/
vedatil4 wrote:sevenair wrote:vedatil4 wrote:Thanks for clarifying.
I was curious because I've been following Brexit saga unfold from the other side of the pond like a soap opera.
I know that there was talk of making Gibraltar Schengen so people could still walk back and forth like they had gotten used to during EU times. However this might've meant Spanish immigration officers representing Schengen would be checking UK people at the GIB airport. I know that's a sensitive topic for the region.
I wasn't following the Brexit story 100% but for this Bilbao flight, if within Schengen, no immigration check, right? But a London to GIB flight, immigration check possibly by Spaniards?
Thanks for explaining the current passageways. There's a similar set up being constructed along the US-Mexico border right now at TIJ. I post developments about it from time to time. It should be operational by the end of the year.
Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?
It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.
So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.
I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.
Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.
I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.
I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.
vinaixa wrote:This new flight from BIO to GIB is likely to face legal challenges resulting from the regulatory framework that is currently in place. Newspaper “EuropaSur” has consulted the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and here’s the relevant bit of information from the article (in Spanish):
• Gibraltar is currently excluded from the EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, and that somehow prevents flights from GIB to airports in the EU.
Source (Spanish only): https://www.europasur.es/gibraltar/Volo ... 44887.html
peterinlisbon wrote:vinaixa wrote:Pretty interesting to see direct flights between Gibraltar and Spain. Iberia’s flight to GIB from MAD stopped in 2008. Thoughts?
Source: https://www.chronicle.gi/new-flights-fr ... -confirms/
Madrid is relatively easy and cheap to get to by train or bus, so it's probably not profitable enough. Gibraltar airport serves not only Gibraltar itself but (especially for Spanish pax) the surrounding area such as Algeciras and the Costa del Sol, which faces competition from Malaga airport, the high speed train network, cars and buses (as a cheaper option).
Maybe Bilbao could work, because it's useful to get to/from the north of Spain and over that distance a lot of other options become impractical.
peterinlisbon wrote:vedatil4 wrote:sevenair wrote:
Yes. God forbid a country seek to have its own sovereignty, controls and freedoms that you and your country enjoys. Hypocrite much?
It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.
So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.
I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.
Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.
I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.
I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.
I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.
Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.
Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?
vedatil4 wrote:peterinlisbon wrote:vedatil4 wrote:
It seems like HM Government in Gibraltar has already agreed to allow Spanish Frontex employees at the airport. https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-rele ... 12021-6604 It sure looks like that sovereignty is subject to negotiation when it's at an overseas territory.
So, with this Bilbao flight, the agreement should be put to the test. In theory the EU passengers should not be subject to an immigration check as they're going from one Schengen area to another. However, flights from the UK to Gibraltar should be subject to immigration checks done by Spanish Frontex officers while technically standing on UK soil it seems. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Or will it be non-Schengen UK officials enforcing Schengen rules on their fellow citizens whilst standing in the UK? Who is or will be doing the immigration checks is an interesting point.
I use "it seems" above because I've read Spanish arguments about the land the airport is on really not being under the Treaty of Utrecht.
Also, interestingly enough, those Spanish officers should have the power to reject UK citizens as they land on what is considered UK soil.
I follow this as a fan of the Brexit saga while holding a bag of popcorn. My government is friend to both parties.
I also follow this because I'm predicting that in 5-10 years there will be USA officers operating at Tijuana Airport inside Mexico. So, it would be interesting to see what lessons were learned from this flight.
I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.
Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.
Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?
What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.
But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.
peterinlisbon wrote:vedatil4 wrote:peterinlisbon wrote:
I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.
Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.
Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?
What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.
But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.
It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.
If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.
Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.
Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.
As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.
peterinlisbon wrote:vedatil4 wrote:peterinlisbon wrote:
I think that as the airport terminal is right next to the border fence they had the idea of basically opening a hole in the fence and having an entrance/exit on the Spanish side. The airport would have two zones, with immigration checks in between. Therefore a plane landing from Bilbao would offload its passengers into the Spanish zone, whilst a plane from London would offload it's passengers in the UK zone. They would then have to go through immigration checks if they want to exit the airport on the other country's side.
Obviously if a passenger arrives from London, they would have to go through Spanish immigration if they want to enter Spain (but not if they exit the airport into Gibraltar). And of course Spanish officers don't have to automatically let everyone in, especially as the UK is not in the EU anymore.
Actually there's already a precedent for this, as if you take the Eurostar to Paris you go through French immigration before you get on the train. When you come back, you go through UK immigration in Paris and those are UK immigration officers that are sent to live and work in Paris to do their jobs. Obviously they also have the right to refuse passengers entry - otherwise, what would be the point in them being there?
What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.
But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.
It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.
If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.
Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.
Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.
As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.
lesfalls wrote:peterinlisbon wrote:vedatil4 wrote:
What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.
But I think a big difference with this Bilbao flight is that it could be inside Schengen. So there shouldn't be an immigration check for its passengers.. It's practically all other flights arriving at GIB that would need to be checked. Will those people be forced to walk into Spain first to be inspected? Or will that Frontex officer, from Spain, be inside GIB airport? I thought there was already a deal for the latter but someone posted an article I think says the negotiations are still in the future and could be subject to legal challenge.
It doesn't really matter for these purposes whether or not Spain is in Schengen. That affects their relationship with other EU countries such as France, etc. If they wanted to do the same thing with San Sebastian airport, which is on the French border, they could simply build a pedestrian bridge over the fence and over the river into France and be done with it.
If the UK (or just Gibraltar) was in Schengen then there would be no border controls at all, but since there are it would be necessary to have two zones inside the airport - a Spanish zone and a UK zone with passport controls between them. If there is not a "Spanish zone" then everyone arriving would have to go through UK/Gibraltar immigration and then walk across the car park and go through another border gate into Spain.
Obviously, though, there has to an agreement between the two sides to enable this to happen and I suppose it also raises the question of who is controlling the entrance into Gibraltar from the Spanish side. In theory someone could enter Gibraltar airport from Spain with just a domestic plane ticket and they would physically be in the UK, so perhaps asylum seekers would try to take advantage of that.
Maybe instead of a Spanish zone they could build a Spanish terminal in La Linea and just let the planes share Gibraltar's runway. That might be a simpler solution.
As far as I know, the Gibraltar government itself is pro-EU and wants to have a good relationship with Spain, but the current Conservative government back in London is less cooperative (to put it politely). But then governments change all the time, so perhaps this project could be revived in the future if it doesn't work out now.
Even if another terminal was built people would be going through the ramp to probably get on flights to the UK. Possibly a new refugee escape route in the making? (The Calais of Southern Europe).
davidjohnson6 wrote:Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website
davidjohnson6 wrote:Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website
vinaixa wrote:davidjohnson6 wrote:Volotea seem to have cancelled the route - no longer listed on their website
Yes, looks like it’s been cancelled. An article by EuropaSur cites lack of permits and no work happening to secure the legal protections in time for the launch.
Source (in Spanish): https://www.europasur.es/gibraltar/Volo ... 44977.html
Another source in English (Gibraltar’s local news corp) gives a similar explanation: uncertainty over whether the permits will be granted in time. But efforts are not being abandoned altogether.
Source: https://www.gbc.gi/news/volotea-removes ... be-granted
vedatil4 wrote:What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.
phllax wrote:vedatil4 wrote:What you described is very similar to an airport terminal and set up currently under construction along the US-Mexico border. There are already USA customs people pre-screening trucks while inside Mexico. I believe someday they will be at TIJ airport pre-screening passengers.
Not to get off topic, but the CBX Terminal at TIJ has been open and operating quite well since December 2015.
Mexico has continually said they do not want US Customs and Immigration officers on their soil, hence the lack of Pre-clearance from Mexico, even though places like CUN, SJD and PVR would benefit from it.