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dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:48 pm

avier wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
Your 'source' didn't support your dishonest statement that "Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes."

That statement is very much untrue. Just one look on that link to that random guest blog, shared by dtw2hyd himself, negates everything that he said.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Ok two x DH-9s (12 seat) planes. Compare that to 12 x DC-2s given for free. TATA airlines started and survived on public mail contracts.

Many legacy airlines from that era started on a similar footing, that is they started off as a mail operator as private entities.
So what is your larger point? What according to you makes TATA's, who founded Air India, not worthy of having it back?

Giving some rational points will help understand your grouse. Just nitpicking on how after WWII, they were given access to "war surpluses" for free, isn't a worthy argument as to why TATA's shouldn't get AI back in 2021.


My point TATAs can do better has no support, it is like saying PanAm can run present day Delta, AA or UA better. That is just imagination.

So, "AI was snatched from the TATA's in early 1950's by the then Nehru govt" so it is a homecoming is a valid argument, but TATA airlines was nursing on mail contracts with free WWII war surplus planes is nitpicking. Got it.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:17 pm

hohd wrote:
Air bubble allows transfer traffic on ME3 and Euro carriers, however there is an extra step of another Covid test or submitting Covid samples at the arrival airport in addition to a negative Covid test (for all departures and transits from UK, Europe, Middle East, Brazil, S. Africa). This extra step is avoided on nonstops. Still AI (and UA and AC for that matter) are enjoying these current restrictions.


Let's use an example flying New Delhi to Chicago via Dubai. So, you would get a negative COVID test before you board at Delhi, and have to undergo another COVID test at Dubai? Wouldn't that result in a high chance that you could miss your connecting flight in Dubai (if the layover is for example just 2 hours)?
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:19 pm

hohd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Antarius wrote:

That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?


Doesn't an "air bubble" exist between India and US meaning a third country stop is not available or relevant at this time?


Air bubble allows transfer traffic on ME3 and Euro carriers, however there is an extra step of another Covid test or submitting Covid samples at the arrival airport in addition to a negative Covid test (for all departures and transits from UK, Europe, Middle East, Brazil, S. Africa). This extra step is avoided on nonstops. Still AI (and UA and AC for that matter) are enjoying these current restrictions.


I feel like its less about the air bubble and more about pax wanting nonstop flights and limiting the amount of countries they transit through. This has really helped AC, UA and AI. IN a sense US/India/Canada/UK are key business and leisure destinations for Indians and those of Indian decent. So still well placed even in this environment. So what ever business travel is happening from/to india is probably to NA and UK.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:50 am

hohd wrote:

Air bubble allows transfer traffic on ME3 and Euro carriers, however there is an extra step of another Covid test or submitting Covid samples at the arrival airport in addition to a negative Covid test (for all departures and transits from UK, Europe, Middle East, Brazil, S. Africa). This extra step is avoided on nonstops. Still AI (and UA and AC for that matter) are enjoying these current restrictions.

That is not true. There is no requirement for a second Covid test at the arrival airport. All that is needed is a negative test inside 72 hours of the departure time. I am talking about India-Europe-USA, cannot comment on other airports like DXB.
KLM though has an additional requirement of needing another negative test inside 4 hours of departure, but that test is usually done at the airport. You just need to get to the airport early enough.
You do not need a second test at the connection airport.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:49 am

DTWLAX wrote:
hohd wrote:

Air bubble allows transfer traffic on ME3 and Euro carriers, however there is an extra step of another Covid test or submitting Covid samples at the arrival airport in addition to a negative Covid test (for all departures and transits from UK, Europe, Middle East, Brazil, S. Africa). This extra step is avoided on nonstops. Still AI (and UA and AC for that matter) are enjoying these current restrictions.

That is not true. There is no requirement for a second Covid test at the arrival airport. All that is needed is a negative test inside 72 hours of the departure time. I am talking about India-Europe-USA, cannot comment on other airports like DXB.
KLM though has an additional requirement of needing another negative test inside 4 hours of departure, but that test is usually done at the airport. You just need to get to the airport early enough.
You do not need a second test at the connection airport.


So, basically just 1 COVID test is needed for North America - Europe - India except for Amsterdam. Which major European airlines are currently flying to India - presumably Lufthansa, BA, Virgin, KLM and Air France, right?
 
sibibom
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:30 am

Let's see which one of Vistara or SpiceJet gets(or breaks) the curse of takeover/buyout in Indian aviation....

In the recent history of Indian aviation, the airline that buys another has started its own doom, and decision to buy being one of the root causes. It has been seen in the case Deccan-Kingfisher, Sahara-Jet...
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:32 am

sibibom wrote:
Let's see which one of Vistara or SpiceJet gets(or breaks) the curse of takeover/buyout in Indian aviation....

In the recent history of Indian aviation, the airline that buys another has started its own doom, and decision to buy being one of the root causes. It has been seen in the case Deccan-Kingfisher, Sahara-Jet...


The Air India sale doesn't seem to be a straight-forward takeover by another airline like the Jet-Sahara or Kingfisher-Deccan deal, though.

News reports state that Ajay Singh, and not the publicly listed SpiceJet, plans to bid for AI. We might not see a merger of Air India with SpiceJet.
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:01 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

You asked for the source, I gave source. End.

Everyone can see what You gave.

Your 'source' didn't support your dishonest statement that "Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes."

End.


Ok two x DH-9s (12 seat) planes. Compare that to 12 x DC-2s given for free. TATA airlines started and survived on public mail contracts.

Dishonesty is trying to hide blatant corruption behind a.net no politics on Civ AV rule.

LOL. You keep making the same unsubstantiated claims.

The statement that "Tata was given access to war surpluses" (as mentioned in your 'source'), is not the same as "planes given for free".

SpiceJet and Vistara, looking to "fill the void" left by the collapse of Jet Airways, "accessed" the carriers grounded Boeing 737s. Does that automatically mean they got the planes for free??

In any case, these "war surplus aircraft" were the property of the RAF and USAAF, not any Indian government. RIAF Dakotas continued in service with the IAF until the Bangladesh war.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:07 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Let's see which one of Vistara or SpiceJet gets(or breaks) the curse of takeover/buyout in Indian aviation....

In the recent history of Indian aviation, the airline that buys another has started its own doom, and decision to buy being one of the root causes. It has been seen in the case Deccan-Kingfisher, Sahara-Jet...


The Air India sale doesn't seem to be a straight-forward takeover by another airline like the Jet-Sahara or Kingfisher-Deccan deal, though.

News reports state that Ajay Singh, and not the publicly listed SpiceJet, plans to bid for AI. We might not see a merger of Air India with SpiceJet.


So you are close on the difference - be it a purchase or a merger, the issue is you typically inherit all the liabilities. This is what killed Kingfisher (Deccan’s debt). Now you can have asset sales which leave behind bad things, but that is not what happened before in Indian aviation. Look at the Jet “sale” where people wanted Jet closed rather than the debt be left behind. The beauty of the AI privatization is that the govt has said it will leave much of the accumulated debt and other unwanted things behind. So the new owner gets a pretty clean asset (they will get the debt associated with the planes, but hey, that is only fair). So Spice won’t do a merger with AI (which also doesn’t let the GOI cash out). Let’s see. My issue with Spice is they seem to be the typical indian industrialist that thinks his connections is all he needs to run a business. He got a huge gift with Jet closing and the slots Spice got. But alas, Spice has not really made anything of that. I hope Spice can emerge as a hybrid style LLC like Jet Blue. But AI should go to Vistara.
 
hohd
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:22 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
hohd wrote:

Air bubble allows transfer traffic on ME3 and Euro carriers, however there is an extra step of another Covid test or submitting Covid samples at the arrival airport in addition to a negative Covid test (for all departures and transits from UK, Europe, Middle East, Brazil, S. Africa). This extra step is avoided on nonstops. Still AI (and UA and AC for that matter) are enjoying these current restrictions.

That is not true. There is no requirement for a second Covid test at the arrival airport. All that is needed is a negative test inside 72 hours of the departure time. I am talking about India-Europe-USA, cannot comment on other airports like DXB.
KLM though has an additional requirement of needing another negative test inside 4 hours of departure, but that test is usually done at the airport. You just need to get to the airport early enough.
You do not need a second test at the connection airport.


The air bubble I am talking about is arrivals to India (at the arriving airport in India), but not departures from India to US or Canada. Flying from India to US via Europe or Middle East will be subject to regulations or restrictions at the transit city and US or Canada. The only restriction I know when flying to US or Canada is a Covid RT PCR test taken within 72 hours of departure from India. Canada has more restrictions on who can visit.

https://www.indianeagle.com/travelbeats ... -february/
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:44 pm

sibibom wrote:
Let's see which one of Vistara or SpiceJet gets(or breaks) the curse of takeover/buyout in Indian aviation....

In the recent history of Indian aviation, the airline that buys another has started its own doom, and decision to buy being one of the root causes. It has been seen in the case Deccan-Kingfisher, Sahara-Jet...


Which makes one wonder why Tata's are in the fray. I am speculating it is either because of political pressure or Rata Tata's emotional attachment to a former Tata asset/company.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:52 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
But AI should go to Vistara.


Vistara has made clear that it won't touch Air India (AI) with a 10 foot pole! That should have been a lesson to the Tatas. Instead of a learning moment, Tatas will use Air Asia India as their vehicle to purchase AI. This tribute to Ratan Tata's fantasy will cost the Tata conglomerate big bucks if the Air Asia India - AI venture fails.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:06 pm

edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Let's see which one of Vistara or SpiceJet gets(or breaks) the curse of takeover/buyout in Indian aviation....

In the recent history of Indian aviation, the airline that buys another has started its own doom, and decision to buy being one of the root causes. It has been seen in the case Deccan-Kingfisher, Sahara-Jet...


Which makes one wonder why Tata's are in the fray. I am speculating it is either because of political pressure or Rata Tata's emotional attachment to a former Tata asset/company.


Or they see that Air India is just decent management away from being very profitable. the ME3 and to some degree the EU carriers feast on higher yield US-India traffic, if AI was remotely competitive they would own that market.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:12 pm

hohd wrote:
Canada has more restrictions on who can visit.

https://www.indianeagle.com/travelbeats ... -february/


And, we know why! See the link below:

Delhi-to-Toronto flights bringing most Covid cases to Canada
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/delhi ... ada-228004
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1939
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:22 pm

edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Let's see which one of Vistara or SpiceJet gets(or breaks) the curse of takeover/buyout in Indian aviation....

In the recent history of Indian aviation, the airline that buys another has started its own doom, and decision to buy being one of the root causes. It has been seen in the case Deccan-Kingfisher, Sahara-Jet...


Which makes one wonder why Tata's are in the fray. I am speculating it is either because of political pressure or Rata Tata's emotional attachment to a former Tata asset/company.


What makes you think that the Tatas haven't done their homework?

They are one of the world's top business empires and have thrived for nearly a 100 years in one of the most business-unfriendly environments on the planet. Do you really think they achieved all that using 'emotional attachment'?
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:44 pm

DIJKKIJK wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
What makes you think that the Tatas haven't done their homework?
They are one of the world's top business empires and have thrived for nearly a 100 years in one of the most business-unfriendly environments on the planet. Do you really think they achieved all that using 'emotional attachment'?


The "emotional" attachment only applies to Air India. Both Ratan Tata and JRD are/were pilots, and aviation aficionados. And, Air India was started by JRD.

Why do you think Singapore Airlines via Vistara decided to give Air India a pass (in a country of 1.4 billion and tremendous travel potential) when they such a huge chance of winning the bid.

Singapore Air actually runs an airline! They know what it takes to succeed or fail. I'd go with their opinion over that of the Tatas.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:02 pm

edealinfo wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


The "emotional" attachment only applies to Air India. Both Ratan Tata and JRD are/were pilots, and aviation aficionados. And, Air India was started by JRD.

Why do you think Singapore Airlines via Vistara decided to give Air India a pass (in a country of 1.4 billion and tremendous travel potential) when they such a huge chance of winning the bid.

Singapore Air actually runs an airline! They know what it takes to succeed or fail. I'd go with their opinion over that of the Tatas.


That's the hubris that causes things to fail. SQ knows how to run an airline in Singapore. That doesn't directly translate to running an airline successfully elsewhere on their own.

Knowing the market is very important too. You arent getting nearly the yield premium that Singapore will.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1939
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:23 pm

edealinfo wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
edealinfo wrote:



Why do you think Singapore Airlines via Vistara decided to give Air India a pass (in a country of 1.4 billion and tremendous travel potential) when they such a huge chance of winning the bid.

.

Because AI wasn't up for sale then?

And what makes you think that SIA had 'such a huge chance of winning the bid'?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:57 pm

trinidadeG wrote:

The statement that "Tata was given access to war surpluses" (as mentioned in your 'source'), is not the same as "planes given for free".


If not 12xDC2s, what were the war supplies TATA airlines had access? MREs???
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:35 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:

The Air India sale doesn't seem to be a straight-forward takeover by another airline like the Jet-Sahara or Kingfisher-Deccan deal, though.

News reports state that Ajay Singh, and not the publicly listed SpiceJet, plans to bid for AI. We might not see a merger of Air India with SpiceJet.


So you are close on the difference - be it a purchase or a merger, the issue is you typically inherit all the liabilities. This is what killed Kingfisher (Deccan’s debt). Now you can have asset sales which leave behind bad things, but that is not what happened before in Indian aviation. Look at the Jet “sale” where people wanted Jet closed rather than the debt be left behind. The beauty of the AI privatization is that the govt has said it will leave much of the accumulated debt and other unwanted things behind. So the new owner gets a pretty clean asset (they will get the debt associated with the planes, but hey, that is only fair). So Spice won’t do a merger with AI (which also doesn’t let the GOI cash out). Let’s see. My issue with Spice is they seem to be the typical indian industrialist that thinks his connections is all he needs to run a business. He got a huge gift with Jet closing and the slots Spice got. But alas, Spice has not really made anything of that. I hope Spice can emerge as a hybrid style LLC like Jet Blue. But AI should go to Vistara.


But then, even a Vistara-Air India merger/takeover seems unlikely now, given that Singapore Airlines is not keen on partnering with Tata to bid for AI. Singapore has waived off its non-compete clause, though, allowing the Tatas to bid for AI on their own.

https://www.timesnownews.com/business-e ... use/713265

So, we might see Air India and Vistara co-existing. At the most, I support the Tatas could absorb AirAsia India into Air India/Air India Express
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:10 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:

The statement that "Tata was given access to war surpluses" (as mentioned in your 'source'), is not the same as "planes given for free".


If not 12xDC2s, what were the war supplies TATA airlines had access? MREs???


12 DC3/C47s. Owned by the RAF/USAAF. Not the Indian government.

JRD Tata most probably participated in an open bid to purchase those surplus aircraft, just like dozens of post-WWII start-up airlines around the globe did at that time. Tata didn't get them for free.

Don't ask me for sales receipts now, though.
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:10 am

edealinfo wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


The "emotional" attachment only applies to Air India. Both Ratan Tata and JRD are/were pilots, and aviation aficionados. And, Air India was started by JRD.

Why do you think Singapore Airlines via Vistara decided to give Air India a pass (in a country of 1.4 billion and tremendous travel potential) when they such a huge chance of winning the bid.

Singapore Air actually runs an airline! They know what it takes to succeed or fail. I'd go with their opinion over that of the Tatas.


"Tremendous travel potential" ... sorry but April fools day is tomorrow. The travel potential could be realised mostly likely in 2 or 3 generations time and in the investing world that is way beyond long term.

Of the 1.4 billion people, maybe 300million (no more) can afford a plane ticket and/or have jobs where the company requires them travel.

295million are price conscious and are happy to fly ULCC and then complain about the "quality", Indian euphuism for "I am cheap but I expect the world". Indians have yet to understand the concept "you get what you paid for".

Hence SQ via UK are realistic that the Indian market is limited and organic growth is better than a major step growth.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1939
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:15 am

oceanvikram wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:


.




Of the 1.4 billion people, maybe 300million (no more) can afford a plane ticket and/or have jobs where the company requires them travel.

.


Which makes India as big a market as the US, and way bigger than almost all other countries. In economics, it's the actual numbers that matter, not any percentage of the whole.

Are you even aware how much the likes of EK, SQ, QR, CX and other 'actual airlines' rely on the Indian market for their revenues?

The Indian Governments of the past have destroyed the market for Indian carriers, thanks to their cluelessness and corruption. If all had been well, India would have had at least two more highly successful FCCs and at least three huge LCCs. AI, if it had been privatised and well run, would have had three major hubs in India. Aviation in India is what it is in spite of the government, and not because of it. It's a big surprise that one of the world's biggest and most efficient LCCs is actually based in India (IndiGo).

The potential has always been there in Indian aviation. Just that the Lufthansas and the Emirates of the world realized it before the idiots in Delhi did.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:05 am

trinidadeG wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:

The statement that "Tata was given access to war surpluses" (as mentioned in your 'source'), is not the same as "planes given for free".


If not 12xDC2s, what were the war supplies TATA airlines had access? MREs???


12 DC3/C47s. Owned by the RAF/USAAF. Not the Indian government.

JRD Tata most probably participated in an open bid to purchase those surplus aircraft, just like dozens of post-WWII start-up airlines around the globe did at that time. Tata didn't get them for free.

Don't ask me for sales receipts now, though.


There is no evidence to counter my theory but 100% sure I am wrong. Ok
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:12 am

The wide ranging acceptable options ie., value 0$ to $3B (or) pioneer JRD TATA to newbie Avani Singh makes it clear goal is not to save airline or to rid the burden on taxpayers, it is the brazenness of current Indian government.

Either way Indian tax payers will be repaying $7B+ principle and interest and all the IAF expenses to maintain two 77Ws, logistics, dedicated crew cost, dedicated simulators, it is not like not paying AI bills for years.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:11 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
But then, even a Vistara-Air India merger/takeover seems unlikely now, given that Singapore Airlines is not keen on partnering with Tata to bid for AI. Singapore has waived off its non-compete clause, though, allowing the Tatas to bid for AI on their own.
https://www.timesnownews.com/business-e ... use/713265
So, we might see Air India and Vistara co-existing. At the most, I support the Tatas could absorb AirAsia India into Air India/Air India Express


Why do you think SingaporeAir would waive something so important in a joint venture as a non-compete clause for Tatas buying AI? Answer: Only if they know for sure that the non compete clause (for Air India) ain't worth jack! This is even more reason why the Tatas should be extremely wary of Air India. But, guess what? None of the Tata Directors would object when a) Ratan Tata personally is for it, and b) Ratan recently won a big case against Cyrus Mistry which bolsters Rata's Indian image.

Look at all the big acquisitions Ratan pursued -- British Steel and Jaguar Land Rover. History has a a tendency to repeat itself.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
The wide ranging acceptable options ie., value 0$ to $3B (or) pioneer JRD TATA to newbie Avani Singh makes it clear goal is not to save airline or to rid the burden on taxpayers, it is the brazenness of current Indian government.

Either way Indian tax payers will be repaying $7B+ principle and interest and all the IAF expenses to maintain two 77Ws, logistics, dedicated crew cost, dedicated simulators, it is not like not paying AI bills for years.


You are 100% right, but who is to stop it? The PM's gaddi is unstoppable.

2 777W for the PM/President: What a waste of money. Even the British PM flies commercial. Why does India have to cater to egos? Heck, the old, and now to be discontinued 747s could have been retained, which would have resulted in lower overall cost (already fully paid up), for the ego trips.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:29 pm

edealinfo wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
But then, even a Vistara-Air India merger/takeover seems unlikely now, given that Singapore Airlines is not keen on partnering with Tata to bid for AI. Singapore has waived off its non-compete clause, though, allowing the Tatas to bid for AI on their own.
https://www.timesnownews.com/business-e ... use/713265
So, we might see Air India and Vistara co-existing. At the most, I support the Tatas could absorb AirAsia India into Air India/Air India Express


Why do you think SingaporeAir would waive something so important in a joint venture as a non-compete clause for Tatas buying AI? Answer: Only if they know for sure that the non compete clause (for Air India) ain't worth jack! This is even more reason why the Tatas should be extremely wary of Air India. But, guess what? None of the Tata Directors would object when a) Ratan Tata personally is for it, and b) Ratan recently won a big case against Cyrus Mistry which bolsters Rata's Indian image.

Look at all the big acquisitions Ratan pursued -- British Steel and Jaguar Land Rover. History has a a tendency to repeat itself.


Doesn't surprise me that Singapore waived the clause. India is way too important to Singapore. For what ever reason, both Singapore and DXB have become the de facto hubs for foreign business interested in India. So many of the high paying Indian focused jobs are based in both these cities. I'm guessing here - SQ didn't want a merger because they probably don't want to get tied into the AI process and/or liabilities. My guess is Tatas will "buy" Vistara from SQ if they get AI. Will probably be cleaner given what we have learned about Indian corporate structure with Jet.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:17 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Doesn't surprise me that Singapore waived the clause. India is way too important to Singapore. For what ever reason, both Singapore and DXB have become the de facto hubs for foreign business interested in India. So many of the high paying Indian focused jobs are based in both these cities. I'm guessing here - SQ didn't want a merger because they probably don't want to get tied into the AI process and/or liabilities. My guess is Tatas will "buy" Vistara from SQ if they get AI. Will probably be cleaner given what we have learned about Indian corporate structure with Jet.


1. Why are the Tatas so interested in Air India? Surely, its not a money spinner and the aviation business has always been risky. Political pressure? I suspect Ajay Sing's bid is smoke screen to create an illusion of competition. I also think the Govt. just wants to get AI off its hands no matter what.

2. Why did Indigo allow Spicejet to beat it to LHR? It could have applied for slots like SpiceJet and used existing aircraft with a stop over for refueling?

3. Is there a way to ascertain if the Vistara and SpiceJet slots are only temporary?
 
Antarius
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:37 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Doesn't surprise me that Singapore waived the clause. India is way too important to Singapore. For what ever reason, both Singapore and DXB have become the de facto hubs for foreign business interested in India. So many of the high paying Indian focused jobs are based in both these cities. I'm guessing here - SQ didn't want a merger because they probably don't want to get tied into the AI process and/or liabilities. My guess is Tatas will "buy" Vistara from SQ if they get AI. Will probably be cleaner given what we have learned about Indian corporate structure with Jet.


1. Why are the Tatas so interested in Air India? Surely, its not a money spinner and the aviation business has always been risky. Political pressure? I suspect Ajay Sing's bid is smoke screen to create an illusion of competition. I also think the Govt. just wants to get AI off its hands no matter what.

2. Why did Indigo allow Spicejet to beat it to LHR? It could have applied for slots like SpiceJet and used existing aircraft with a stop over for refueling?

3. Is there a way to ascertain if the Vistara and SpiceJet slots are only temporary?


1. Why did the Tatas buy Jaguar? It was a dead brand that churned out junk for years. Answer - they thought there is untapped potential. And when you're on the fortune 500 for years, they probably aren't making decisions by throwing darts

2. Why does Indigo need to follow the same business plan? a.net is obsessed with every airline flying all routes. Sometimes, staying within your core market is a good thing; see Southwest.

3. Don't know this one
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:29 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Doesn't surprise me that Singapore waived the clause. India is way too important to Singapore. For what ever reason, both Singapore and DXB have become the de facto hubs for foreign business interested in India. So many of the high paying Indian focused jobs are based in both these cities. I'm guessing here - SQ didn't want a merger because they probably don't want to get tied into the AI process and/or liabilities. My guess is Tatas will "buy" Vistara from SQ if they get AI. Will probably be cleaner given what we have learned about Indian corporate structure with Jet.


1. Why are the Tatas so interested in Air India? Surely, its not a money spinner and the aviation business has always been risky. Political pressure? I suspect Ajay Sing's bid is smoke screen to create an illusion of competition. I also think the Govt. just wants to get AI off its hands no matter what.

2. Why did Indigo allow Spicejet to beat it to LHR? It could have applied for slots like SpiceJet and used existing aircraft with a stop over for refueling?

3. Is there a way to ascertain if the Vistara and SpiceJet slots are only temporary?


I don't think TATAs really eager to take it, but they have to exhibit enthusiasm publicly, otherwise you know who shows up at every TATA office in India..

SpiceExpress and SpiceHealth are printing money, if I have to guess, Ms. Avani Singh will be CEO of privatized Air India, and SpiceJet will join KF and 9W. Just my opinion.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 pm

Antarius wrote:
And when you're on the fortune 500 for years, they probably aren't making decisions by throwing darts


Don't bet on it.

Raven, a six-year-old chimpanzee, became the 22nd most successful money manager in the USA after choosing her stocks by throwing darts at a list of 133 internet companies.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/wo ... all-street
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I don't think TATAs really eager to take it, but they have to exhibit enthusiasm publicly, otherwise you know who shows up at every TATA office in India..


Well I think the charade will cost them more if it isn't accompanied by a winning bid. Nothing would pi$$ someone of more than playing along and then when push comes to shove, putting in a bid that you know will not succeed.

I think the Tatas are now trapped. No one makes a fool out of Amethi Shaw.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:16 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Antarius wrote:
And when you're on the fortune 500 for years, they probably aren't making decisions by throwing darts


Don't bet on it.

Raven, a six-year-old chimpanzee, became the 22nd most successful money manager in the USA after choosing her stocks by throwing darts at a list of 133 internet companies.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/wo ... all-street


Are you on the fortune 500?

It's easy to poke holes. Its tougher than you think to get and stay there.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:27 am

edealinfo wrote:

And, we know why! See the link below:

Delhi-to-Toronto flights bringing most Covid cases to Canada
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/delhi ... ada-228004

This is concerning. There is a requirement to show a negative test report prior to boarding. Does this mean that AC and AI have not been following the policy? Are the carriers being lax in implementing the rule?
 
sibibom
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:43 am

DTWLAX wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

And, we know why! See the link below:

Delhi-to-Toronto flights bringing most Covid cases to Canada
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/delhi ... ada-228004

This is concerning. There is a requirement to show a negative test report prior to boarding. Does this mean that AC and AI have not been following the policy? Are the carriers being lax in implementing the rule?


Being negative 72 hours prior to the actual flight doesn't mean anything if it takes a few days before one gets the virus and it actually showing up in test. One also needs to consider that prior to an international flight, one does make a lot of prep involving stepping out (including going to get tested in a place which itself is a high risk place) and not to mention airport.
 
avier
Posts: 1347
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:09 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
SpiceExpress and SpiceHealth are printing money, if I have to guess, Ms. Avani Singh will be CEO of privatized Air India, and SpiceJet will join KF and 9W. Just my opinion.

Mr. Singh has a strong emotional bond to the Spice brand. He coined the brand name during its early inception and in 2015 acquired the airline to keep it going. So if anything, AI will change to Spice branding. Also, all their subsidiaries are Spice-something. If they going after AI, it's only for their slots and route rights. The AI brand will most likely then be discarded.
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:20 am

DIJKKIJK wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

.




Of the 1.4 billion people, maybe 300million (no more) can afford a plane ticket and/or have jobs where the company requires them travel.

.


Which makes India as big a market as the US, and way bigger than almost all other countries. In economics, it's the actual numbers that matter, not any percentage of the whole.

Are you even aware how much the likes of EK, SQ, QR, CX and other 'actual airlines' rely on the Indian market for their revenues?

The Indian Governments of the past have destroyed the market for Indian carriers, thanks to their cluelessness and corruption. If all had been well, India would have had at least two more highly successful FCCs and at least three huge LCCs. AI, if it had been privatised and well run, would have had three major hubs in India. Aviation in India is what it is in spite of the government, and not because of it. It's a big surprise that one of the world's biggest and most efficient LCCs is actually based in India (IndiGo).

The potential has always been there in Indian aviation. Just that the Lufthansas and the Emirates of the world realized it before the idiots in Delhi did.


Incorrect on your first point. India is no where near as big as the US market, maybe Brazil or Russia and definitely not as big as Japan (population: circa 100million). I don’t have the numbers, but analysists (IIT and/or IIM grads) say that the US market is bigger than China’s (No.2), yet the Chinese middle class population is about 600million. However if you are looking at volume then yes India is the third largest after China and USA. But then as an investor would you go by volume or revenue.

To your second point, I have no idea, do you know? My understanding is, SQs biggest markets are Australia and Indonesia, someone correct me if I am wrong.

And remember it is people like me from the West, (in my case Australia) who fly these airlines to India therefore I am under the Australian market. Indians on the other hand are happy to save AUD10 (circa Rs5,000) to fly on the cheapest option available. I have family members who flew Aeroflot in early 2000s from Delhi to New York return and another set of family members who flew some Uzbek airline to London return. I remember they drove to Amritsar to catch the flight.

As for the third point, it has been shown time and time again that the Indian market is not big enough for two FCCs. The Indian market is not mature/sophisticated enough or willing to pay for such services especially on Indian carriers. Indian nationalism does not transcend in the aviation sector.

Stick to ULCC domestically and LCC or even hybrid LCC internationally. Anyone who wants to fly FCC, use a foreign carrier. That is the only way I can think an Indian carrier can be profitable.

I don't understand this conceited attitude of Indians that they deserve FCC service and yet refuse to pay for it. Another set of my family members are wealthy, they fly business class on foreign airlines out of their own pocket, yet will fly domestically on Indigo or Spice Jet, if the train journey is over 6hrs.

On my last flight (in 1994) on AI from DEL to SIN, the flight got cancelled. We stayed in Delhi for 2 days and in Singapore had to stay another 2 days for our connecting flight. A lot of people complained that this would never happen with SQ, QF or NZ. And then someone commented if you are not willing to pay SQ prices don't expect SQ service. That was an eye opener for me and changed my attitude.

I agree on your fourth point but let’s be realistic and take a pragmatic approach. No Indian carrier should aim to be like EK or SQ, but strive to be like ET. Provide the service level that is good enough to give a consistent profit.

The example of Vistara, I have not flown them, but trust me their service will be nowhere near SQ and I doubt they have made a profit during pre-Coivid times, even though they get domestic feed from SQ.
 
killswitch13
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:52 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:06 am

Where do you guys think the privatised AI hub will be located? BOM or DEL. Vistara always wanted their hub to be located in BOM but due to constraints were forced to shift to DEL. Tata being a BOM based company will prefer to move base with SpiceJet sticking to DEL / Jewar in future
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:08 am

avier wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
SpiceExpress and SpiceHealth are printing money, if I have to guess, Ms. Avani Singh will be CEO of privatized Air India, and SpiceJet will join KF and 9W. Just my opinion.

Mr. Singh has a strong emotional bond to the Spice brand. He coined the brand name during its early inception and in 2015 acquired the airline to keep it going. So if anything, AI will change to Spice branding. Also, all their subsidiaries are Spice-something. If they going after AI, it's only for their slots and route rights. The AI brand will most likely then be discarded.



Good to know talking points and toolkit are ready when government gifts AI to Spice.

About SG's magic revival/turnaround, SpiceJet is allowed by government to tax write off huge amounts of debt every year. Sanjiv Kapoor(or previous owners) could have done the same thing if this is legally allowed. Source: SG books, and actually somebody on twitter compared SG tax payments to others.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:18 pm

killswitch13 wrote:
Where do you guys think the privatised AI hub will be located? BOM or DEL. Vistara always wanted their hub to be located in BOM but due to constraints were forced to shift to DEL. Tata being a BOM based company will prefer to move base with SpiceJet sticking to DEL / Jewar in future


GReat question - DEL (and I say that as a 100% BOMite). DEL just has a better location in the country and has almost zero competition from other big international airports in the region. Also, while BOM is still the financial hub, DEL now has a big business / offshore client base to drive the front cabin. Finally, DEL (and its region) has sent many more immigrants in recent years than BOM. One more thing, BOM just doesn’t have the slots for a proper hub (and Indian airlines can only make long haul work through a connecting hub). That said, I think Vistara will fly key routes from BOM and BLR. YOU can’t be a full service business airline and not serve key routes from these three cities. And sorry no other Indian city has a developed enough business base for a FSC to bother.
 
NZ321
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:31 pm

Antarius wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:


The "emotional" attachment only applies to Air India. Both Ratan Tata and JRD are/were pilots, and aviation aficionados. And, Air India was started by JRD.

Why do you think Singapore Airlines via Vistara decided to give Air India a pass (in a country of 1.4 billion and tremendous travel potential) when they such a huge chance of winning the bid.

Singapore Air actually runs an airline! They know what it takes to succeed or fail. I'd go with their opinion over that of the Tatas.


That's the hubris that causes things to fail. SQ knows how to run an airline in Singapore. That doesn't directly translate to running an airline successfully elsewhere on their own.

Knowing the market is very important too. You aren't getting nearly the yield premium that Singapore will.


And that's not to mention potential resistance to foreign ownership and influence which could be more significant in the case of Air India as the known "National" carrier. Good luck to the Tatas.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:37 pm

oceanvikram wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:



Of the 1.4 billion people, maybe 300million (no more) can afford a plane ticket and/or have jobs where the company requires them travel.

.


Which makes India as big a market as the US, and way bigger than almost all other countries. In economics, it's the actual numbers that matter, not any percentage of the whole.

Are you even aware how much the likes of EK, SQ, QR, CX and other 'actual airlines' rely on the Indian market for their revenues?

The Indian Governments of the past have destroyed the market for Indian carriers, thanks to their cluelessness and corruption. If all had been well, India would have had at least two more highly successful FCCs and at least three huge LCCs. AI, if it had been privatised and well run, would have had three major hubs in India. Aviation in India is what it is in spite of the government, and not because of it. It's a big surprise that one of the world's biggest and most efficient LCCs is actually based in India (IndiGo).

The potential has always been there in Indian aviation. Just that the Lufthansas and the Emirates of the world realized it before the idiots in Delhi did.


Incorrect on your first point. India is no where near as big as the US market, maybe Brazil or Russia and definitely not as big as Japan (population: circa 100million). I don’t have the numbers, but analysists (IIT and/or IIM grads) say that the US market is bigger than China’s (No.2), yet the Chinese middle class population is about 600million. However if you are looking at volume then yes India is the third largest after China and USA. But then as an investor would you go by volume or revenue.

To your second point, I have no idea, do you know? My understanding is, SQs biggest markets are Australia and Indonesia, someone correct me if I am wrong.

And remember it is people like me from the West, (in my case Australia) who fly these airlines to India therefore I am under the Australian market. Indians on the other hand are happy to save AUD10 (circa Rs5,000) to fly on the cheapest option available. I have family members who flew Aeroflot in early 2000s from Delhi to New York return and another set of family members who flew some Uzbek airline to London return. I remember they drove to Amritsar to catch the flight.

As for the third point, it has been shown time and time again that the Indian market is not big enough for two FCCs. The Indian market is not mature/sophisticated enough or willing to pay for such services especially on Indian carriers. Indian nationalism does not transcend in the aviation sector.

Stick to ULCC domestically and LCC or even hybrid LCC internationally. Anyone who wants to fly FCC, use a foreign carrier. That is the only way I can think an Indian carrier can be profitable.

I don't understand this conceited attitude of Indians that they deserve FCC service and yet refuse to pay for it. Another set of my family members are wealthy, they fly business class on foreign airlines out of their own pocket, yet will fly domestically on Indigo or Spice Jet, if the train journey is over 6hrs.

On my last flight (in 1994) on AI from DEL to SIN, the flight got cancelled. We stayed in Delhi for 2 days and in Singapore had to stay another 2 days for our connecting flight. A lot of people complained that this would never happen with SQ, QF or NZ. And then someone commented if you are not willing to pay SQ prices don't expect SQ service. That was an eye opener for me and changed my attitude.

I agree on your fourth point but let’s be realistic and take a pragmatic approach. No Indian carrier should aim to be like EK or SQ, but strive to be like ET. Provide the service level that is good enough to give a consistent profit.

The example of Vistara, I have not flown them, but trust me their service will be nowhere near SQ and I doubt they have made a profit during pre-Coivid times, even though they get domestic feed from SQ.


Dude your post is a bit strong. Nothing conceited, it is a fact. Cities like BOM/BLR and even DEL (but less so) routinely get airlines’ high J aircraft. The issue with India is that there is no mega J city like LHR, HKG, GRU, SIN that can support a ton of different city pairs on P2P traffic alone. India’s J traffic is more concentrated with city pairs. Also Indian carriers have suffered from the lack of proper hubs, infrastructure, high taxes, poor management and the GOI weirdly giving more access to foreign airlines just at the time Indian airlines started to expand. Lack of traffic is not the issue. The ME3 would be much smaller without indian traffic. Even CX at one time delayed launching another HKG-SFO flight until they could get BLR up and running. And btw the Indian market includes both Indians and those from other countries flying to INdia. I have never heard someone say those who live in another country but fly somewhere are not included in the traffic statistics and/or profit potential. As far as service, Indian airlines can have great service. kingfisher was awesome. I also loved Jet. Their partnership with DL (which sadly came too late) was great. It was a fair partnership (unlike the EY/Jet one). I always picked flying Jet between LHR/AMS/CDG to BOM over VS/AF/KL (in J). Jet’s service offering for someone of Indian decent was just perfect. The food offering - still miss it. Also many have mentioned how AI survives on people tolerating poor planes but value the service - they send their parents on AI and many times pay premiums. So is their a market for full service international in India - yes. Should indian FSC follow what US airlines did domestic and basically be low cost (charge for everything) - yes.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:51 pm

So, the general talk is that Air India is a nice play for bidders because of its slots. Other than LHR, which are the slots that Air India possesses that a carrier couldn't get on its own?
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:16 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
oceanvikram wrote:
DIJKKIJK wrote:

Which makes India as big a market as the US, and way bigger than almost all other countries. In economics, it's the actual numbers that matter, not any percentage of the whole.

Are you even aware how much the likes of EK, SQ, QR, CX and other 'actual airlines' rely on the Indian market for their revenues?

The Indian Governments of the past have destroyed the market for Indian carriers, thanks to their cluelessness and corruption. If all had been well, India would have had at least two more highly successful FCCs and at least three huge LCCs. AI, if it had been privatised and well run, would have had three major hubs in India. Aviation in India is what it is in spite of the government, and not because of it. It's a big surprise that one of the world's biggest and most efficient LCCs is actually based in India (IndiGo).

The potential has always been there in Indian aviation. Just that the Lufthansas and the Emirates of the world realized it before the idiots in Delhi did.


Incorrect on your first point. India is no where near as big as the US market, maybe Brazil or Russia and definitely not as big as Japan (population: circa 100million). I don’t have the numbers, but analysists (IIT and/or IIM grads) say that the US market is bigger than China’s (No.2), yet the Chinese middle class population is about 600million. However if you are looking at volume then yes India is the third largest after China and USA. But then as an investor would you go by volume or revenue.

To your second point, I have no idea, do you know? My understanding is, SQs biggest markets are Australia and Indonesia, someone correct me if I am wrong.

And remember it is people like me from the West, (in my case Australia) who fly these airlines to India therefore I am under the Australian market. Indians on the other hand are happy to save AUD10 (circa Rs5,000) to fly on the cheapest option available. I have family members who flew Aeroflot in early 2000s from Delhi to New York return and another set of family members who flew some Uzbek airline to London return. I remember they drove to Amritsar to catch the flight.

As for the third point, it has been shown time and time again that the Indian market is not big enough for two FCCs. The Indian market is not mature/sophisticated enough or willing to pay for such services especially on Indian carriers. Indian nationalism does not transcend in the aviation sector.

Stick to ULCC domestically and LCC or even hybrid LCC internationally. Anyone who wants to fly FCC, use a foreign carrier. That is the only way I can think an Indian carrier can be profitable.

I don't understand this conceited attitude of Indians that they deserve FCC service and yet refuse to pay for it. Another set of my family members are wealthy, they fly business class on foreign airlines out of their own pocket, yet will fly domestically on Indigo or Spice Jet, if the train journey is over 6hrs.

On my last flight (in 1994) on AI from DEL to SIN, the flight got cancelled. We stayed in Delhi for 2 days and in Singapore had to stay another 2 days for our connecting flight. A lot of people complained that this would never happen with SQ, QF or NZ. And then someone commented if you are not willing to pay SQ prices don't expect SQ service. That was an eye opener for me and changed my attitude.

I agree on your fourth point but let’s be realistic and take a pragmatic approach. No Indian carrier should aim to be like EK or SQ, but strive to be like ET. Provide the service level that is good enough to give a consistent profit.

The example of Vistara, I have not flown them, but trust me their service will be nowhere near SQ and I doubt they have made a profit during pre-Coivid times, even though they get domestic feed from SQ.


Dude your post is a bit strong. Nothing conceited, it is a fact. Cities like BOM/BLR and even DEL (but less so) routinely get airlines’ high J aircraft. The issue with India is that there is no mega J city like LHR, HKG, GRU, SIN that can support a ton of different city pairs on P2P traffic alone. India’s J traffic is more concentrated with city pairs. Also Indian carriers have suffered from the lack of proper hubs, infrastructure, high taxes, poor management and the GOI weirdly giving more access to foreign airlines just at the time Indian airlines started to expand. Lack of traffic is not the issue. The ME3 would be much smaller without indian traffic. Even CX at one time delayed launching another HKG-SFO flight until they could get BLR up and running. And btw the Indian market includes both Indians and those from other countries flying to INdia. I have never heard someone say those who live in another country but fly somewhere are not included in the traffic statistics and/or profit potential. As far as service, Indian airlines can have great service. kingfisher was awesome. I also loved Jet. Their partnership with DL (which sadly came too late) was great. It was a fair partnership (unlike the EY/Jet one). I always picked flying Jet between LHR/AMS/CDG to BOM over VS/AF/KL (in J). Jet’s service offering for someone of Indian decent was just perfect. The food offering - still miss it. Also many have mentioned how AI survives on people tolerating poor planes but value the service - they send their parents on AI and many times pay premiums. So is their a market for full service international in India - yes. Should indian FSC follow what US airlines did domestic and basically be low cost (charge for everything) - yes.


Jet and Kingfisher are bankrupt. As the local FCC airlines, their service was way too good for the Indian market, especially at the pointy end. If memory serves me right, Jet was the third airline to provide all aisle access in J after SQ and VS. Agreed that ME3 would be small but "much smaller" is a big call. More than half of their Indian market is O&D and that is their gold mine along with Pakistan and Middle East. And yes people send their parents on AI is purely for the language and no need to change aircrafts.

As for CX and an additional flight to SFO was directly related to getting rights to BLR, I did not know that, I am intrigued.

I apologise if I sound like a troll but I stand by my posts, unless I am proven wrong.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
So, the general talk is that Air India is a nice play for bidders because of its slots. Other than LHR, which are the slots that Air India possesses that a carrier couldn't get on its own?


And there is no need to buy the airline to get LHR slots, summon MoCA to PMO and a sequence of winks will get the job done. No verbal,visual or written evidence.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:42 pm

edealinfo wrote:
So, the general talk is that Air India is a nice play for bidders because of its slots. Other than LHR, which are the slots that Air India possesses that a carrier couldn't get on its own?


I think it is beyond just their slots. It is also their market share and the fact that they have routes that are up and running all over the world. It is a classic turn around case (that you have the believe you have the skills to run it better). Launching new routes cost a lot of money. With AI, you will have to spend some money to improve service, aircraft, connectivity etc. But the analysis the buyer is doing should show that it is much cheaper to make AI better than starting from scratch. This is typically why airlines all over the world buy loss making airlines. You shed the routes that have no hope, tweak the routes that you think can be money spinners and of course love the money making routes you have. Given AI’s current network, IMHO any buyer needs a strong partner in the US & EU. Improve the planes and service and get feed on the EU/US side and hopefully you have a viable airline.
 
hohd
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:16 pm

Getting the feed on EU/US side.... easier said than done.

For AI, especially in US, United will not cooperate and United does not cooperate with other Star carriers as well, not just AI. In fact UA works with Vistara first then AI next when providing connections to its flights to DEL and BOM. So to improvise, AI has to look for JetBlue (they have interline with JetBlue) or Alaska or even AA or DL to provide connections to key cities in US they dont fly to. Same with AC in Canada, AI may have to look for WestJet. In Europe, there is some hope with LH, but I dont think LH is too keen on providing connections to many cities. This is the case with all airlines, AI is not the exception.

If Vistara comes into play, United and LH will help as long as Vistara does not start flights to cities in US or Europe. Otherwise Vistara will have the same issues.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:55 pm

hohd wrote:
Getting the feed on EU/US side.... easier said than done.

For AI, especially in US, United will not cooperate and United does not cooperate with other Star carriers as well, not just AI. In fact UA works with Vistara first then AI next when providing connections to its flights to DEL and BOM. So to improvise, AI has to look for JetBlue (they have interline with JetBlue) or Alaska or even AA or DL to provide connections to key cities in US they dont fly to. Same with AC in Canada, AI may have to look for WestJet. In Europe, there is some hope with LH, but I dont think LH is too keen on providing connections to many cities. This is the case with all airlines, AI is not the exception.

If Vistara comes into play, United and LH will help as long as Vistara does not start flights to cities in US or Europe. Otherwise Vistara will have the same issues.


Well Vistara/AI could partner with BA/AA or DL/KL/AF. WRT UA, I think the issue about partnering is more related to the fact that AI is unreliable. That said, AI and UA overlap a lot in the US. LH did push traffic to AI’s DEL/BOM FRA flights. This all said, I think in the new post COVID world with less business traffic, Indias masses become key to keeping frequencies up for Western carriers. I think Tatas can cut a good deal with a US/EU partner. Jet showed the model.
 
User avatar
trinidadeG
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:20 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I think it is beyond just their slots. It is also their market share and the fact that they have routes that are up and running all over the world. It is a classic turn around case (that you have the believe you have the skills to run it better). Launching new routes cost a lot of money. With AI, you will have to spend some money to improve service, aircraft, connectivity etc. But the analysis the buyer is doing should show that it is much cheaper to make AI better than starting from scratch. This is typically why airlines all over the world buy loss making airlines. You shed the routes that have no hope, tweak the routes that you think can be money spinners and of course love the money making routes you have. Given AI’s current network, IMHO any buyer needs a strong partner in the US & EU. Improve the planes and service and get feed on the EU/US side and hopefully you have a viable airline.


Now Vistara seems to be looking at flying to the US by themselves also.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 842556.cms

Might end up in a scenario where the Tatas shrink Air India's network to only fly regional international, and leaves the long haul to Vistara?

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