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Captaincurious
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Updated: Tata to (re)acquire most of Air India

Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:49 pm

Tata Group and Spice Jet are announced as the final bidders of Air India. They are now allowed to access corporate information to make their final bids. https://simpleflying.com/tata-group-spicejet-air-india/
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
alfa164
Posts: 4091
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Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:08 pm

Captaincurious wrote:
Tata Group and Spice Jet are announced as the final bidders of Air India. They are now allowed to access corporate information to make their final bids. https://simpleflying.com/tata-group-spicejet-air-india/


Was there ever any doubt that the politically-connected Ajay Singh's SpiceJet (he is reported to be the man behind Modi's ‘Now is the time for Modi government’ slogan in 2014) would be a winner? I suspect including Tata is just political theatre..
 
Captaincurious
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Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:37 pm

From non political perspective, I am yet to see any benefits from the bidding other than valuable slots at LHR etc. The Air India fleet needs major revamp and the current company structure has to bs simplified.

For Tata, there will be a serious headache to on Vistara and Air India combination given Singapore Airlines is involved. There is also a need to merge AirAsia India and Air India.

For Spice Jet, it is in a precarious condition with multiple non payments to aircraft lesser and manufacturers (e.g. see recent dispute with De Haviland) I don't see where is the extra money for bidding is coming from.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:31 pm

UGH Spice Jet. I don’t feel that they can handle being a FSC. They took over so much of Jet’s routes and haven’t done anything inspiring. Sadly the TATA group is just too cautious with Vistara and aviation. Let’s see what happens. Btw if Spice is in the final and serious, I wish they at least had a airline partner (like a EU or US carrier)
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Bidding

Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:58 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
UGH Spice Jet. I don’t feel that they can handle being a FSC. They took over so much of Jet’s routes and haven’t done anything inspiring. Sadly the TATA group is just too cautious with Vistara and aviation. Let’s see what happens. Btw if Spice is in the final and serious, I wish they at least had a airline partner (like a EU or US carrier)


Who's been able to do FSC successfully?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:14 am

Captaincurious wrote:
The Air India fleet needs major revamp


That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.
 
Antarius
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:17 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Captaincurious wrote:
The Air India fleet needs major revamp


That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.


The interiors are embarrassing and unable to command a yield premium.

The fleet needs a revamp. Not new planes, but everything else - staff, seats, brand image etc.

Where did it say that they need new aircraft?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:42 am

AI will redo cabins with public funds before sale date for the right buyer, just like it paid off 77Ws well before finance term end, while struggling to pay salaries.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:12 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Captaincurious wrote:
The Air India fleet needs major revamp


That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.

Weren't some 787s cannibalized to keep the rest of the fleet flying?
As Antarius mentioned, "major fleet revamp" does not necessarily mean "buy new aircraft"; refreshing interiors and ensuring ALL airplanes are airworthy is a major revamp as well.
 
Captaincurious
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:26 am

Antarius wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Captaincurious wrote:
The Air India fleet needs major revamp


That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.


The interiors are embarrassing and unable to command a yield premium.

The fleet needs a revamp. Not new planes, but everything else - staff, seats, brand image etc.

Where did it say that they need new aircraft?


Thanks for the clarification. That's what I mean. Air India is an embarrassment for Indians.
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:50 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Btw if Spice is in the final and serious, I wish they at least had a airline partner (like a EU or US carrier)

Not an airline, but they do have Ras Al Khaimah Investment Authority as partners.


https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/s ... dia-146010
 
migair54
Posts: 2501
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Captaincurious wrote:
The Air India fleet needs major revamp


That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.


Sale everthing and lease it back, sale the LHR slots, sale everything you can to make money, get the money you make that fiscal year as profit and take your profit share, next year, huge losses, then give Air India back to the Indian government to take care of it or close it down... It's not the first time this has happened, you just need to have the right friends and connections.

in a sentence
Privatizing profits and socializing losses
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:36 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Weren't some 787s cannibalized to keep the rest of the fleet flying?


That question is for Boeing.

Had Boeing designed and built a quality plane and/or quickly addressed customer complaints rather than using PR teams on the internet to talk down or blame customers to cover own problems, it would have been in a better position now.

BTW, Boeing paid $420 Million compensation to AI on a $2.7 Billion order. Who had the last laugh?

Do you really think it was a Boeing problem? ALL OTHER AIRLINES were able to fly their planes, they did not have to cannibalize half their fleet to keep the other half flying, only Air India; but it's a Boeing problem?
I'm all for a good Boeing bashing; but when they deserve it. And, in this case, I don't believe they do.

Who has the last laugh? Right now, it's Boeing: despites all their Commercial Aircraft Division issues, they are still up and running, and no where near to collapse. On the other hand, Air India...
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:02 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Who has the last laugh? Right now, it's Boeing: despites all their Commercial Aircraft Division issues, they are still up and running, and no where near to collapse. On the other hand, Air India...


Depends on how you look at it. Being paid to sit around and do nothing, with no performance required.... AI Management have successfully retired while getting paid.

:lol:
 
pune
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
AI will redo cabins with public funds before sale date for the right buyer, just like it paid off 77Ws well before finance term end, while struggling to pay salaries.


People have short memories. The same was done for Mumbai airport before privatization as well.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:50 pm

pune wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
AI will redo cabins with public funds before sale date for the right buyer, just like it paid off 77Ws well before finance term end, while struggling to pay salaries.


People have short memories. The same was done for Mumbai airport before privatization as well.


Exactly, AIESL also did free D checks and interiors(labor) for the 5x77Ls sold to Etihad.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:07 pm

Let's look at the goals of divestment. BTW divestment doesn't mean giving away public property or a distress sale of family silver. There has to be some relief from debt burden, need not be all.

Once the good bits are given away from free, what is left for Indian taxpayer.

1) State owned carrier
Q: Is India going to have a state owned airline?
Ans: Yes, AI(Regional) is not part of sale and still be a state-owned airline, burdening taxpayers. Potential to build-up is always there. So, government shouldn't be running airlines theory, is just a theory.

2) Debt
Q: Will Indian taxpayer get rid of any debt after AI sale?
Ans: No. Past debt moved to AI Holdings, which is not part of the sale

3) Excessive non-productive workforce.
Q: Will there be a reduction in workforce?
Ans: No. AIATSL (loss making GHA) will still be state owned burdening taxpayers. State owned AIESL may do better, not sure.

Which divestment goals are achieved with this sale? Use any razor to explain.
 
pune
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:44 pm

@dtw2hyd, thank you for sharing the above.

@Antarius - the whole song and dance today is privatization. Let's look at what Sucheta Dalal has to say on the topic. FWIW, she has been a whistleblower of quite a few scams including the 1992 scam and the stamp paper scam among others. -

https://www.moneylife.in/article/privat ... 62985.html

Most of the examples quoted are those done by NDA.

Capitalism has more losers than winners -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q1Zver84Q4

Also we seem to forget that Kingfisher and Jet were also private airlines. Don't you know the famous quote, to be a millionaire in Aviation, you need to be a billionaire, meaning most airlines don't make money or have razor-thin margins. What that means is employees are essentially screwed all the time.

To add to that, most of these 'private companies' survive on India on ever-greening of loans. Why was Reliance not given the bank license, because they have the biggest loans on bank consortium. I could go on and on, the problem in India is simply crony capitalism and saying balls to any regulation. When the Govt. itself doesn't follow law, how are we expecting people to follow otherwise.
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:16 pm

pune wrote:
Most of the examples quoted are those done by NDA.


And here in is my point - the agenda. I'm sure the other side will say the opposite.

If you look through all of this, you'll see systemic mismanagement and constant government interference, either directly or through layers and layers of red tape. That's a bipartisan issue. You don't need to see a conspiracy theory there.

I believe the number of airlines that have gone bankrupt since I first went to India a couple decades ago is nearly all. And the Air India saga was going on decades before that.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:40 pm

migair54 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Captaincurious wrote:
The Air India fleet needs major revamp


That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.


Sale everthing and lease it back, sale the LHR slots, sale everything you can to make money, get the money you make that fiscal year as profit and take your profit share, next year, huge losses, then give Air India back to the Indian government to take care of it or close it down... It's not the first time this has happened, you just need to have the right friends and connections.

in a sentence
Privatizing profits and socializing losses


There is no way it is privatized for less than the value of their hard assets like planes and slots. Will it go for a discount to some theoretical value - YES. The GOI wants AI to go to an indian airline. Tata and Spice should be looking to pay for AI at some discount to if they built it on their own.If I was the GOI, I would take less money but ensure most routes and staff stay on for some period of time. On AI’s interiors - agreed they need help but Spice is no charmer when it comes to soft product. Vistara on the other hand...
 
pune
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Re: Air India Bidding

Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:45 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
migair54 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That is the farthest statement from a fact. Any data or evidence to support your claim?

Fully paid 777s-12.7yrs, 319s(12.7 yrs) and 321s(12.4 yrs)
SLB 788s-6.7yrs.
Leased A320NEO-3.4yrs,

Unless your definition of revamp is to replace GENx 788s with RR 787s and LEAP NEOs with GTF NEOs, scrap reliable 777s with 777X/A350s.

Is there any airline in the world with so many with major portion of the fleet paid off?

If India wants to give away public assets to private friends, it should, there is no need make a case on internet.


Sale everthing and lease it back, sale the LHR slots, sale everything you can to make money, get the money you make that fiscal year as profit and take your profit share, next year, huge losses, then give Air India back to the Indian government to take care of it or close it down... It's not the first time this has happened, you just need to have the right friends and connections.

in a sentence
Privatizing profits and socializing losses


There is no way it is privatized for less than the value of their hard assets like planes and slots. Will it go for a discount to some theoretical value - YES. The GOI wants AI to go to an indian airline. Tata and Spice should be looking to pay for AI at some discount to if they built it on their own.If I was the GOI, I would take less money but ensure most routes and staff stay on for some period of time. On AI’s interiors - agreed they need help but Spice is no charmer when it comes to soft product. Vistara on the other hand...


What we don't know is if there is some real-estate that AI has and will be part of the deal or not ? Usually you come to know of those facts long after that deal has been done. Case in point as shared by me above, Centurion Hotels. there are many others too. And as shared by somebody, you could always strip away all the profits and hand it bank to GOI saying there are losses, this has happened before, this can happen again.
 
pune
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:13 am

Antarius wrote:
pune wrote:
Most of the examples quoted are those done by NDA.


And here in is my point - the agenda. I'm sure the other side will say the opposite.

If you look through all of this, you'll see systemic mismanagement and constant government interference, either directly or through layers and layers of red tape. That's a bipartisan issue. You don't need to see a conspiracy theory there.

I believe the number of airlines that have gone bankrupt since I first went to India a couple decades ago is nearly all. And the Air India saga was going on decades before that.


While I do agree the misgovernance has been rife, but it has been rife everywhere in every field. Is the solution privatization of all, no but still the Govt. wants to do it ?

For e.g. UK did privatization of its Railways 40 years back, just this year, they re-nationalized, why? Because most of the routes economically didn't make money and were not on time. And there were enough studies that proved that other countries in Europe had better train systems and cost less. UK govt. were paying subsidies to the private players all the time. Here is a YT video which explains that in greater detail -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP95Frc0v4k

I am sharing the above as the same methodology is being used in Indian Railways, the same franchising system where in many cases, companies are being awarded for 50 years, whether they have experience in running Railways or not is immaterial, the same way as it has been for Airports.
 
avier
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:15 pm

For those who love to make everything political and love to blame the current govt for AI's situation, just a little background over why the mess Air India is in today:

AI was snatched from the TATA's in early 1950's by the then Nehru govt, when the Air Corporations 1953 act was passed, in a bid to nationalize just about everything.
https://www.indiatoday.in/education-tod ... 2018-08-01

That's when their decline began, from being a well run globally admired airline under the TATA group to a third world airline under successive Nehru family govt's. This went on for decades, till the final blow in early to mid 2000's, again by the then Nehru dynasty family, when AI placed a large order for aircrafts plagued with corruption. This put the airline in an unending debt cycle, while at the same time their prime routes were snatched and given to their friend Mr.Goyal (owner of Jet Airways).
Basically, the airline was ruined over decades by one dynastic family, yet some folks on here want to blame a party that predominantly came into power in 2014, when AI was already dead and with large debts. And now, returning AI back to their original owners sounds like a huge conspiracy theory! It's but the most natural thing for AI to be going back to the TATA's, their original owners.
@pune- instead of asking, why privatisation? Look a little at AI's own history, and ask why nationalisation? Drawing random comparisons to UK's rail to justify nationalisation, is an apples to oranges comparison.

Regarding the selected bidders, Spicejet is just included to prop up the sale process to make it look more interesting. It's almost decided beforehand AI will go back to TATA's.
Spice can barely keep their own operations afloat, let alone taking over AI. If they even get anything of AI, it will be their tiny subsidiary AI Express.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:10 pm

avier wrote:

Regarding the selected bidders, Spicejet is just included to prop up the sale process to make it look more interesting. It's almost decided beforehand AI will go back to TATA's.
Spice can barely keep their own operations afloat, let alone taking over AI. If they even get anything of AI, it will be their tiny subsidiary AI Express.


Let's hope. If Vistara got AI and Spice got AI Express, I think it would be a great outcome. The problem in India is many of the industrialists think if they “get” something, then it is like a windfall. I think Spice has leaned getting Jet’s slots hasn’t changed things for them because they had no plan. I think it would be cool if there was one airline based in DEL, one in BOM and one the focused on the south. The every airline being everything hasn’t worked well IMHO. Plus Indigo is the king of P2P all over India so that role is filled. Let the others be more hub like airlines with like 10% of their routes focused on random P2P where they can make good money.
 
dtw2hyd
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:15 pm

avier wrote:
For those who love to make everything political and love to blame the current govt for AI's situation, just a little background over why the mess Air India is in today:

AI was snatched from the TATA's in early 1950's by the then Nehru govt, when the Air Corporations 1953 act was passed, in a bid to nationalize just about everything.
https://www.indiatoday.in/education-tod ... 2018-08-01

That's when their decline began, from being a well run globally admired airline under the TATA group to a third world airline under successive Nehru family govt's. This went on for decades, till the final blow in early to mid 2000's, again by the then Nehru dynasty family, when AI placed a large order for aircrafts plagued with corruption. This put the airline in an unending debt cycle, while at the same time their prime routes were snatched and given to their friend Mr.Goyal (owner of Jet Airways).
Basically, the airline was ruined over decades by one dynastic family, yet some folks on here want to blame a party that predominantly came into power in 2014, when AI was already dead and with large debts. And now, returning AI back to their original owners sounds like a huge conspiracy theory! It's but the most natural thing for AI to be going back to the TATA's, their original owners.
@pune- instead of asking, why privatisation? Look a little at AI's own history, and ask why nationalisation? Drawing random comparisons to UK's rail to justify nationalisation, is an apples to oranges comparison.

Regarding the selected bidders, Spicejet is just included to prop up the sale process to make it look more interesting. It's almost decided beforehand AI will go back to TATA's.
Spice can barely keep their own operations afloat, let alone taking over AI. If they even get anything of AI, it will be their tiny subsidiary AI Express.


Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes.

History is going to repeat itself and GoI going to give away 60+ fully paid planes to buyer. Although I don't think it will be TATA.

The other seems to be moving all the COVID-19 time revenue to off-spring's enterprise while not paying salaries to employees.

This will either be a $0 transaction(after years of talk about value) or what taxpayers paid to transport vaccines would be paid to buy AI, run buy next gen entrepreneur.

Imagine how convoluted the country has become.
 
Vicenza
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:31 pm

[quote="pune"]

For e.g. UK did privatization of its Railways 40 years back, just this year, they re-nationalized, why? Because most of the routes economically didn't make money and were not on time. And there were enough studies that proved that other countries in Europe had better train systems and cost less. UK govt. were paying subsidies to the private players all the time. [quote]

The UK has not re-nationalised all it's railways at all. Where are you imagining your information from and you should at least get it correct?
 
pune
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:54 pm

Vicenza wrote:
pune wrote:

For e.g. UK did privatization of its Railways 40 years back, just this year, they re-nationalized, why? Because most of the routes economically didn't make money and were not on time. And there were enough studies that proved that other countries in Europe had better train systems and cost less. UK govt. were paying subsidies to the private players all the time.

The UK has not re-nationalised all it's railways at all. Where are you imagining your information from and you should at least get it correct?


I only know what the press has shared. Now whether they are correct or not is for people to tell -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ning-back/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... g-pandemic

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sures.html

So perhaps a better heading would have been 'privatizing profits and socializing losses' would that be better, please let me know.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:34 pm

Discuss the topic, not politics.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:45 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Btw if Spice is in the final and serious, I wish they at least had a airline partner (like a EU or US carrier)

Not an airline, but they do have Ras Al Khaimah Investment Authority as partners.

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/s ... dia-146010


https://www.khaleejtimes.com/business/aviation/uae-rak-government-denies-air-india-bid-reports
The Ras Al Khaimah Government has clarified that it is not connected to any "potential transaction relating to Air India".
In a statement issued on Sunday, a government spokesperson said it was "aware of a story circulating in the international and local media of a potential transaction relating to Air India, the national air carrier of India"
The reports cite that one of the parties involved is a Ras Al Khaimah Government institution.
"Neither the Ras Al Khaimah Government nor any of its related entities or authorities are in any way connected to any such potential transaction relating to Air India,” the spokesperson added.
The denial came as reports said that the much-delayed sale of Air India is likely to complete within months, with the Indian government officially shortlisting Tata Group and a consortium.



...and as of now, a denial from the Ras Al Khaimah Government - regarding involvement in the transition.

I wonder - if there is a difference between the Investment Authority's plans (or affiliation to) and the local government - and/or why the government felt compelled to offer comment - however I could see clarification assisting the process here by removing false images from the equation, and better clarifying who/what is actually bidding for the carrier.

That said, it would be interesting to see how funding is raised (for both sides) as both bidders also face the challenging current circumstances, and the need to then provide capital/agreements/arrangements going forward.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Air India Bidding

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:32 pm

Captaincurious wrote:
From non political perspective, I am yet to see any benefits from the bidding other than valuable slots at LHR etc.

@Captaincurious. There isn't a need to. Vistara got 2X daily from DEL to LHR for free. And, as far as I understand these are permanent. See:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1459239

avier wrote:
Regarding the selected bidders, Spicejet is just included to prop up the sale process to make it look more interesting. It's almost decided beforehand AI will go back to TATA's. Spice can barely keep their own operations afloat, let alone taking over AI. If they even get anything of AI, it will be their tiny subsidiary AI Express.


@avier: Agree

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Sadly the TATA group is just too cautious with Vistara and aviation.
Let's hope. If Vistara got AI and Spice got AI Express, I think it would be a great outcome.


@CaliguyNYC: I disagree. Tata should have just waited for Air India to collapse. One large player out of the market makes it better for everyone else.
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:19 am

edealinfo wrote:
@CaliguyNYC: I disagree. Tata should have just waited for Air India to collapse. One large player out of the market makes it better for everyone else.


Air India was never going to be shut down. There have been ample opportunities over the last four decades to do so.
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:48 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes.

You have a source for this?
 
Sokes
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Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:53 am

The question is if any government in India can do without friends in business. I'm already quite satisfied if auctions become the usual thing, with crony capitalism limited to a few areas.

Jobs in government run enterprises are often given according to connections or bribes. Therefore even technical monopolies are better private. Parents spend a lot of money on education. Not fair if jobs are not given on merit.

Sale price is a secondary consideration.
 
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Rajahdhani
Posts: 808
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:04 am

Getting back to financials - let's also consider that per the Government, AI is set to post a rather large loss this year:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/air-india-likely-to-incur-loss-of-almost-10000-cr/article34164016.ece
Air India is likely to incur a loss of ₹9,779 crore for the financial year 2020-2021, according to provisional figures shared by the Centre in Lok Sabha on Thursday.


({9779*crore}*INRtoUSD).
({9779*10000000}*.014).

Before we see any significant fluctuations or changes to the INR - if my calculations are correct - that translates to a loss of $1,347,350,620.00 at current USD.

Note - Please feel free to correct me, if I am incorrect in my calculations. I'm neither alien, nor native to the Crore - but understand that discussing the issue in terms of USD could also enable greater cross referencing and/or comparative analysis to many or AI's international peers.

Of note, though - is the statement from the Minister of State for Civil Aviation Hardeep Puri to Parliament {clarified in the article as the Lok Sabha, which is the lower house of the bicameral Parliamentary system};

https://www.thehindu.com/business/air-india-likely-to-incur-loss-of-almost-10000-cr/article34164016.ece
On whether the latest losses would impact Air India’s privatisation, the Minister [sic - Minister of State for Civil Aviation Hardeep Puri] said, “the valuation of Air India will be done closer to the financial bid stage.”


So, saving the valuation seems prudent, as we have a valuation of the losses, though not a proper accounting of how/where those losses were incurred (as of yet).

So, things to note - if this must be settled as a law, or with consent of Parliamentary consent, and thus treated as the passage of a bill, then an act (and this is in keeping with the legislative sessions of the Parliament's meeting - with the first of the three sessions usually dedicated as the Budget Session {Jan/Feb-May}), then here's an overview of who, what, when and why it would be as such/involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawmaking_procedure_in_India
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 am

trinidadeG wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes.

You have a source for this?


By 1939; Tata Airlines was operating a fleet of 8 passenger D.H.89s and smaller types from the American manufacturer Waco; in that same year- the carrier bought two 12 seat D.H.86s from Mac.Robertson-Miller Airlines in Australia. But due to the outbreak of World War 2; J.R.D Tata was unable to take Tata Airlines to greater heights.


Following the end of the war; Tata Airlines switched its emergency (ie: for war) route permits with actual route rights from the government. All routes were confirmed by June; and Tata was given access to war surpluses; resulting in a large fleet of at least 12 Douglas DC-3s; an aircraft which formed much of the fleet of Asian carriers in the 1950s


https://www.airlinereporter.com/2011/08 ... uest-blog/

India snatched the airline from TATAs is WhatsApp University spin continuously repeated by it alumni, not a fact.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:30 pm

Antarius wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
@CaliguyNYC: I disagree. Tata should have just waited for Air India to collapse. One large player out of the market makes it better for everyone else.


Air India was never going to be shut down. There have been ample opportunities over the last four decades to do so.


Totally agree. Everyone needs to remember that valuation takes into account the parts of the business that are running poorly and potential upside from better management. Even things that lose money can have substantial value. It is a battle between the buyer and the seller on how much of the potential upside the seller gets. Sell of AI to Vistara is the way to go IMHO. With one strong FSC and One ver strong LCC (Indigo) plus others for competition. Indian aviation should be in pretty good shape. Also the new environment is going to favor leisure and VFR travel. The real affect of this to the indian market will be richer countries with large business travel can’t rely on $12k business class fares to subsidize heavily discounted coach fares. Will this result in Y fares say between US and India to rise, sure. But I would argue it is about time fares settled at a reasonable balance. $800 to fly between Indian and US is just too low.
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:26 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2011/08 ... uest-blog/

India snatched the airline from TATAs is WhatsApp University spin continuously repeated by it alumni, not a fact.


Your source is a 'guest' blog. Nice.

I wonder why you left out this bit of the article, though.. ?

During World War 2; the growth in new routes slowed for Tata Airlines. But because the War was relatively docile in India; demand on existing routes continued to grow. They upgraded their fleet constantly; eventually jumping up to a fleet of 3 Stinson Model As, as well as multiple 14 seat Douglas DC-2s. This new lift helped Tata spread its wings to Bangalore, Nagpur, Calcutta, and even Baghdad, Iraq by June of 1945 (nearing the end of the war).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:42 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

https://www.airlinereporter.com/2011/08 ... uest-blog/

India snatched the airline from TATAs is WhatsApp University spin continuously repeated by it alumni, not a fact.


Your source is a 'guest' blog. Nice.

I wonder why you left out this bit of the article, though.. ?

During World War 2; the growth in new routes slowed for Tata Airlines. But because the War was relatively docile in India; demand on existing routes continued to grow. They upgraded their fleet constantly; eventually jumping up to a fleet of 3 Stinson Model As, as well as multiple 14 seat Douglas DC-2s. This new lift helped Tata spread its wings to Bangalore, Nagpur, Calcutta, and even Baghdad, Iraq by June of 1945 (nearing the end of the war).


You asked for the source, I gave source. End.

Do you have any source to prove it is wrong? Did TATA placed bulk orders of A380s??

Ratan Tata was famous for two things, 1) micromanagement and 2) he cared a lot about cleanliness of toilets. Both are not possible in 21st century international carrier.
 
dtw2hyd
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:15 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Getting back to financials - let's also consider that per the Government, AI is set to post a rather large loss this year:


Question is why AI selling Chicago-India J RT for $2,700 on fully packed flights under air bubble agreements?
 
hohd
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:28 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
Getting back to financials - let's also consider that per the Government, AI is set to post a rather large loss this year:


Question is why AI selling Chicago-India J RT for $2,700 on fully packed flights under air bubble agreements?


Because often other airlines are even lower, UA and BA are constantly now heavily discounting all of India routes - one of the few countries where traffic is still decent.. I never could get a good AI business class fare which was the cheapest. BA may be discounting since many are avoiding travel via London.

In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.
 
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trinidadeG
Posts: 334
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

You asked for the source, I gave source. End.

Everyone can see what You gave.

Your 'source' didn't support your dishonest statement that "Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes."

End.
 
Antarius
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:24 pm

hohd wrote:
In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.


That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?
 
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proudavgeek
Posts: 46
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Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:53 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
UGH Spice Jet. I don’t feel that they can handle being a FSC. They took over so much of Jet’s routes and haven’t done anything inspiring. Sadly the TATA group is just too cautious with Vistara and aviation. Let’s see what happens. Btw if Spice is in the final and serious, I wish they at least had a airline partner (like a EU or US carrier)



They can either convert AI in the low-cost model or maintain two separate brands i.e. AI - FSC and SJ- LCS.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:54 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

You asked for the source, I gave source. End.

Everyone can see what You gave.

Your 'source' didn't support your dishonest statement that "Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes."

End.


Ok two x DH-9s (12 seat) planes. Compare that to 12 x DC-2s given for free. TATA airlines started and survived on public mail contracts.

Dishonesty is trying to hide blatant corruption behind a.net no politics on Civ AV rule.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2856
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:21 pm

Antarius wrote:
hohd wrote:
In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.


That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?


Doesn't an "air bubble" exist between India and US meaning a third country stop is not available or relevant at this time?
 
avier
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:33 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
Your 'source' didn't support your dishonest statement that "Most of the TATA airlines planes were surplus WWII given to TATA by the government. Otherwise, TATAs had two 8 seat planes."

That statement is very much untrue. Just one look on that link to that random guest blog, shared by dtw2hyd himself, negates everything that he said.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Ok two x DH-9s (12 seat) planes. Compare that to 12 x DC-2s given for free. TATA airlines started and survived on public mail contracts.

Many legacy airlines from that era started on a similar footing, that is they started off as a mail operator as private entities.
So what is your larger point? What according to you makes TATA's, who founded Air India, not worthy of having it back?

Giving some rational points will help understand your grouse. Just nitpicking on how after WWII, they were given access to "war surpluses" for free, isn't a worthy argument as to why TATA's shouldn't get AI back in 2021.
 
Antarius
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:54 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Antarius wrote:
hohd wrote:
In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.


That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?


Doesn't an "air bubble" exist between India and US meaning a third country stop is not available or relevant at this time?


That isn't going to last forever. AI's operational and financial mess long predate the situation and will continue on long after COVID ends.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:51 pm

Antarius wrote:
hohd wrote:
In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.


That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?


Well clearly many people don’t mind connecting through DEL on AI. While it seems it isn’t for you, don’t know why having the option for consumers is so wrong. Many people prefer connecting in their home country. Also if you miss your domestic commenting flight in DEL, chances are you can get another one. And worse case if you are stuck overnight because of a miss connection, some people would rather spend that night in their own country instead of DOH. In the post COVID world, I actually think there will be more nonstops between India and the EU/US with the ME3 feeling the pain of this increased competition more than anyone.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:08 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
hohd wrote:
In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.


That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?


Well clearly many people don’t mind connecting through DEL on AI. While it seems it isn’t for you, don’t know why having the option for consumers is so wrong. Many people prefer connecting in their home country. Also if you miss your domestic commenting flight in DEL, chances are you can get another one. And worse case if you are stuck overnight because of a miss connection, some people would rather spend that night in their own country instead of DOH. In the post COVID world, I actually think there will be more nonstops between India and the EU/US with the ME3 feeling the pain of this increased competition more than anyone.


I'm not saying that the option can't exist. Just that the option as it stands doesn't get a yield premium due to the subpar and industry trailing product. Look at the prices on offer.

Under new leadership, there is no reason DEL-JFK can't outperform and charge a premium for the nonstop.
 
hohd
Posts: 1101
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Air India Bidding

Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:35 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Antarius wrote:
hohd wrote:
In defense of AI, having flown both AI and United last year (using UA award miles), I found AI to be actually better than UA in IFE, food and service, only the seating in UA is better in business.


That's a low bar. By virtue of the size of the US and need for travel, the US3 are able to get yield with substandard product. They have improved of late, but UA especially lags with their 2-2-2 J on several aircraft. But they can survive with this.

AI is competing with the ME3, basically a domestic flight away. Why fly BLR-DEL-JFK when you can fly BLR-DOH-JFK and have a superior experience in every way?


Doesn't an "air bubble" exist between India and US meaning a third country stop is not available or relevant at this time?


Air bubble allows transfer traffic on ME3 and Euro carriers, however there is an extra step of another Covid test or submitting Covid samples at the arrival airport in addition to a negative Covid test (for all departures and transits from UK, Europe, Middle East, Brazil, S. Africa). This extra step is avoided on nonstops. Still AI (and UA and AC for that matter) are enjoying these current restrictions.

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