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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:16 pm

CRM is potentially a problem here if you are the other pilot listening to these rants. I’ve observed in the aviation industry people going on political rants and assuming whomever is there agrees with them. Often times people will stay quiet rather than confront someone, which can be a significant distraction and result in lost trust and confidence in the other person.

Regardless of political view, this pilot was a distraction and likely violating sterile cockpit rules. We all know what can happen if an airplane is not properly configured for takeoff. Sometimes FMC data isn’t uploaded correctly or the airplane is not trimmed right or there is an error with a waypoint in the flight plan, or the airplane could have an autopilot disconnect, etc. If you add in fatigue, having a distraction like that in the flight deck increases the likelihood of a mistake being made or the crew not reacting correctly. It’s understandable that there will be some non essential communication when holding on the ground for an extended period of time, however emotional and vulgar conversation like what was heard is a distraction which creates risk. It appears that the pilots were sufficiently distracted during this conversation that they didn’t notice they had an open mic and ATC tried to communicate with them. Sterile cockpit rules exist to reduce distractions and increase safety margins.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:20 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
This guy wasn’t in a men’s locker room. He was piloting an airplane full of people. I have my opinions and use the F word too, but I don’t exhibit such anger and hatred as this guy did - with a load of passengers on board.

People will be people isn’t an excuse for a mentally disturbed hate filled tirade.

The fact that you even defend his behavior as an airline pilot , is disturbing.

Pilots can't stand having their perceived prerogatives questioned, even when those perceived prerogatives are contrary to FAA regulations and have caused tragic accidents in the past. Just boys being boys, ya know. Nothing to see here. Move on.

LAX772LR wrote:
And while there's a strong likelihood that this is just some yokel who never left his hometown before becoming a pilot, doesn't comprehend the concept of different-strokes, and never had any real intent to harm anyone; it now puts WN behind the 8ball if essentially anything else were to happen with this person (company internally, or public) in his future employment with them.

Why? Because any plaintiff will be able to point to the fact that the employer *knew* and had reason to know, that this guy was unbalanced. No company enjoys having that kind of outstanding liability in an employee.

And they're going to have to spend money, regardless of how temporarily, and face potential lost revenue (again, likely very temporarily), until this blows over. Nothing insurmountable in the slightest, but still money that they otherwise wouldn't have incurred nor lost, during the worst period in aviation financial history.

In essence, WN will be fine. But I wouldn't be shocked if whatever process this person receives, is automatically elevated to the equivalent of a "strike 2!" at the easiest; or termination.

Right. WN will have to cover their butts. The pilot should be looking forward to some counseling, i.e. a psych eval, and some time on the beach at a minimum.

They're already distancing themselves from him:

“Our corporate Culture is built on a tenet of treating others with concern and dignity, and the comments are inconsistent with the professional behavior and overall respect that we require from our employees,” a spokesperson told the Chronicle in a statement.

“This situation was an isolated incident involving a single employee and not representative of the nearly 60,000 hardworking, respectful People of Southwest Airlines.”

Ref: Yahoo link above

Unless these are hollow words (which I doubt), there will be action taken.

NCAD95 wrote:
It's amazing who people really are when no one is looking. I would say this man has some issues and what caught me was that he acted as if everything were normal after what he had said. These kinds of mentality are very scary as he hides it so well when he's conducting business as not to let on who he really is. This is NOT normal behavior for a well adjusted human.

Well, if nothing else, WN needs to make sure this is not the case.

SteveXC500 wrote:
Would it make news if the rant was opposed to conservatives?

What do you think? Suppose the plane was in DAL and a pilot in a plane preparing a plane load of passengers for a flight was recorded saying "f--- this place, g-- d---- conservative f---s, f---ing weirdos, driving around in pickup trucks"? That would definitely make the airwaves and make the company have concerns about why they keep this guy in a cockpit when they can find other people who can do their job with better professionalism.
 
boston5555
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:27 pm

Pilots are professionals. This was unprofessional. It should be managed accordingly.
 
32andBelow
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:42 pm

zippy wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I can’t help but wonder if an AS pilot were caught on a hot mic going off about “MAGA-loving backwater rednecks” in CHS, MEM, or some other not-entirely-liberal bastion would earn the same feigned outrage from some of the members here.


The outrage shouldn't be about the content but about the actions. There's a reason that there are sterile cockpit rules and that reason is pilot error induced crashes like Delta 1141 and Eastern 212. From listening to the audio I wonder how many of this guy's coworkers would feel uncomfortable reporting him – if that number is greater than zero that's a big CRM problem for Southwest. Imagine if he were piloting one of Southwest's MAX birds and MCAS went haywire right after takeoff. Would you rather he be mid-rant or focused on flying?

I disagree with what this guy said and he certainly came off as ignorant, but as long as he's able to fly safely and adhere to established safety rules I don't care. What I don't get though is why someone would seek out a job with an airline that has such a large presence in an area he so clearly detests. Why bid on flights to the Bay Area if you can't stand it?

If MCAS went haywire they would have shut up and started dealing with the problem.
 
JBoy
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:44 pm

There are some people on here who would be horrible at a party! They would suck the fun out of life. Laughter is the spice of life.
 
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ssteve
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 pm

I have to laugh at the call for 'sensitivity training' in a post that's basically calling 'Southwest pilots' as a group troglodytes.

The sensitivity training would no doubt have some time spent talking towards understanding your implicit biases towards groups and not applying them to individuals... you don't take the actions of one individual and use it as confirmation bias to thereafter continue to think negatively of a group as a whole... well, I mean, you can, and maybe you'd be right more than half the time-- I sure as hell dunno. I just mean it's amusing to see explicit bias in a post calling for training to reduce implicit biases.
Last edited by ssteve on Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:45 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
CRM is potentially a problem here if you are the other pilot listening to these rants. I’ve observed in the aviation industry people going on political rants and assuming whomever is there agrees with them. Often times people will stay quiet rather than confront someone, which can be a significant distraction and result in lost trust and confidence in the other person.

Right, it's a passive-aggressive dominance move: I get to make myself look/feel/act superior by imposing my view first, you get to suck it up and deal with it.

Remember the old days when it was said gentlemen do not discuss religion, politics or sex?

There was a good reason why that saying existed back then, and the reason hasn't changed ever since.

JBoy wrote:
There are some people on here who would be horrible at a party! They would suck the fun out of life. Laughter is the spice of life.

Laughter at the expense of others? Can't we do better than that? Especially in the workplace, we aren't there for the chuckles...
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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johnboy
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:46 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I can’t help but wonder if an AS pilot were caught on a hot mic going off about “MAGA-loving backwater rednecks” in CHS, MEM, or some other not-entirely-liberal bastion would earn the same feigned outrage from some of the members here.


Yes.
See? That wasn’t so difficult, was it?
 
CALMSP
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:48 pm

ewt340 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Boeing747_600 wrote:
Sidestepping the issue that some posters think his behaviour merely deserves a shrug, the bigot deserves to be axed for violating the sterile cockpit rule. Period.


So do you propose every pilot who has ever flown should be fired?


I propose every Pilot who VIOLATE any regulations and restrictions be fired. Sounds logical don't you think? Safety First! :smile:


so a very large % of pilots you would want fired and commercial aviation dwindled down? Or do you think that it never happens, and this is one out of 50,000 pilots?
 
JBoy
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:56 pm

Laughter at the expense of others? Can't we do better than that? Especially in the workplace, we aren't there for the chuckles...

I bet most don't see it that way. I do like to have fun at work when I can, that is all I see here.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:58 pm

CALMSP wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

So do you propose every pilot who has ever flown should be fired?

I propose every Pilot who VIOLATE any regulations and restrictions be fired. Sounds logical don't you think? Safety First! :smile:

so a very large % of pilots you would want fired and commercial aviation dwindled down? Or do you think that it never happens, and this is one out of 50,000 pilots?

Seems WN wants us to believe the later:

“This situation was an isolated incident involving a single employee and not representative of the nearly 60,000 hardworking, respectful People of Southwest Airlines.”

Seems the die have been cast.

Seems many prefer the "normalization of deviance" approach, let's obey the rules only if/when they suit our personal whims.

Strange, seeing that it would not be very difficult to just avoid such bombastic behavior and just get on with flying the airplane..
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:04 pm

JBoy wrote:
Laughter at the expense of others? Can't we do better than that? Especially in the workplace, we aren't there for the chuckles...

I bet most don't see it that way. I do like to have fun at work when I can, that is all I see here.

Unless you work in a political/religious/sexual mono-culture, it's pretty easy to think it's all just fun while you're doing things that trigger others.

The problem is many people think they are in a political/religious/sexual mono-culture when they are not.

It's kind of like a fish, it doesn't realize it's swimming in water till you take it out of the water.

Given globalization and this thing we call freedom, such mono-cultures are getting more and more rare every day.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:11 pm

Pilots talk in the cockpit.

Pilots are generally conservative or Republicans

No slurs were issued. It was a private conversation in the cockpit that went public by accident.

This will be a discussion involving the Chief Pilots. Not much more
 
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Aaron747
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:11 pm

wjcandee wrote:
You have to listen to the audio. They're talking in all sorts of funny, prankish accents, even when speaking to ATC at one point. That accent that says all the offensive stuff is straight out of King of the Hill, and doesn't sound like either pilot's actual voice. Sounds like they were just goofing around saying things that they didn't mean, and then some Woke Do-Gooder LiveATC listener happened to hear it and turned it into something that it wasn't, and the Woke Media picked it up and was righteously indignant. I remember when Herb used to stand up for his employees; that WN caved and issued some screed about not wanting to offend anyone, ever, is really sad. How about this: "The pilots were making light of people who might mock the Bay Area, by play acting characters in a private conversation that inadvertently was recorded. We don't love their humor but we do love that they love their jobs and were having a little fun at work. We'll talk to them." Done.


Just checking as an HR guy....so are you suggesting that this incident should *not* result in a meeting with CP/HR? I can assure you management's perspective is potential marketing and PR issues, not 'whether or not our guys are having a little fun at work'. There's a time and place for everything, and adults being paid a lot are expected to understand that.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:23 pm

N667US wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Boeing747_600 wrote:
Sidestepping the issue that some posters think his behaviour merely deserves a shrug, the bigot deserves to be axed for violating the sterile cockpit rule. Period.


So do you propose every pilot who has ever flown should be fired?


If every single pilot nowadays is willing to break FAA regulations and risk people's lives to make small talk? Sure. The sterile cockpit rule exists for a reason, see Eastern Air Lines Flight 212, Colgan Air Flight 3407, Delta Airlines Flight 1141 etc.


If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.
 
CALMSP
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

so a very large % of pilots you would want fired and commercial aviation dwindled down? Or do you think that it never happens, and this is one out of 50,000 pilots?

Seems WN wants us to believe the later:

“This situation was an isolated incident involving a single employee and not representative of the nearly 60,000 hardworking, respectful People of Southwest Airlines.”

Seems the die have been cast.

Seems many prefer the "normalization of deviance" approach, let's obey the rules only if/when they suit our personal whims.

Strange, seeing that it would not be very difficult to just avoid such bombastic behavior and just get on with flying the airplane..


Well, to be fair, any company would say "isolated"
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:32 pm

My only concern would be having that conversation at a time when the cockpit is supposed to be sterile.

As for his rant, whatever. Counseling? Really? Everyone has their political opinions and views people who oppose them in certain ways. Im liberal myself and Im not bothered by it. I just need him to fly the plane safely, we dont have to be friends.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Pilots talk in the cockpit.

Pilots are generally conservative or Republicans

No slurs were issued. It was a private conversation in the cockpit that went public by accident.

This will be a discussion involving the Chief Pilots. Not much more


How come is that the case? Solely in the U.S or generally worldwide too?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:35 pm

lesfalls wrote:

How come is that the case? Solely in the U.S or generally worldwide too?


Because so many of them come from the military.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:41 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I can’t help but wonder if an AS pilot were caught on a hot mic going off about “MAGA-loving backwater rednecks” in CHS, MEM, or some other not-entirely-liberal bastion would earn the same feigned outrage from some of the members here.


It wouldn't matter. Standards are there for a reason. It doesn't matter if I agree personally with what was said or not, a policy violation or risk to the company is just that - nothing more, nothing less. Professionals are expected to stay professional while on the clock. Years ago a friend of mine was having some personal problems and let them snowball - he was offered help many times and didn't take it. I did nothing to block or interfere with his inevitable termination. It wouldn't have been fair to everyone else.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
alfa164
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:42 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Right. Because pilots are robotic humorless automatons who never act in a lighthearted way ever. It's a deadly serious business ever second of every day. They are up front, Scanning The Skies, staring straight ahead, at all times..


As a passenger, I fully expect my pilot to be up front, paying attention to the business at hand: flying the plane safely. If, as you suggest, he we merely acting out a comedy routine, he needs to make time for a comedy club audition after he gets off work. Awaiting preflight clearance is not the time to practice for your second gig.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.


And your point is...? The rule exists for a reason; if you don't think it does, then start an effort to rescind it. Until then, it is the rule, and a pilot is paid handsomely to follow those rules, Anyone who breaks that rule should expect whatever penalties that violation entails.


ewt340 wrote:
We need to put our political bias aside and actually think about this rationally. Fact Check: The pilot breaking the law for not following the "Sterile flight deck rule". They need to re-examine his psyche. We don't want Domestic Terrorist flying planes into buildings do we? We also does not need another Germanwings Flight 9525 down here.


:checkmark:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:51 pm

alfa164 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Right. Because pilots are robotic humorless automatons who never act in a lighthearted way ever. It's a deadly serious business ever second of every day. They are up front, Scanning The Skies, staring straight ahead, at all times..


As a passenger, I fully expect my pilot to be up front, paying attention to the business at hand: flying the plane safely. If, as you suggest, he we merely acting out a comedy routine, he needs to make time for a comedy club audition after he gets off work. Awaiting preflight clearance is not the time to practice for your second gig.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.


And your point is...? The rule exists for a reason; if you don't think it does, then start an effort to rescind it. Until then, it is the rule, and a pilot is paid handsomely to follow those rules, Anyone who breaks that rule should expect whatever penalties that violation entails.


ewt340 wrote:
We need to put our political bias aside and actually think about this rationally. Fact Check: The pilot breaking the law for not following the "Sterile flight deck rule". They need to re-examine his psyche. We don't want Domestic Terrorist flying planes into buildings do we? We also does not need another Germanwings Flight 9525 down here.


:checkmark:


Did I say it wasn’t the rule? No, it’s been the rule for a very long time. I flew military, corporate, airline—every operation had that rule. In the military, it was a crew debrief item, enlisted called out pilots and vice versa. Point being, we’re human and violating it does not equal death and destruction. It gets violated like lots of rules do.

Maybe the triggered co-pilot just keyed his mic to embarrass the captain. I’ve heard of worse done to pilots who were a little off the script.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:54 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Right. Because pilots are robotic humorless automatons who never act in a lighthearted way ever. It's a deadly serious business ever second of every day. They are up front, Scanning The Skies, staring straight ahead, at all times..


As a passenger, I fully expect my pilot to be up front, paying attention to the business at hand: flying the plane safely. If, as you suggest, he we merely acting out a comedy routine, he needs to make time for a comedy club audition after he gets off work. Awaiting preflight clearance is not the time to practice for your second gig.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.


And your point is...? The rule exists for a reason; if you don't think it does, then start an effort to rescind it. Until then, it is the rule, and a pilot is paid handsomely to follow those rules, Anyone who breaks that rule should expect whatever penalties that violation entails.


ewt340 wrote:
We need to put our political bias aside and actually think about this rationally. Fact Check: The pilot breaking the law for not following the "Sterile flight deck rule". They need to re-examine his psyche. We don't want Domestic Terrorist flying planes into buildings do we? We also does not need another Germanwings Flight 9525 down here.


:checkmark:


Did I say it wasn’t the rule? No, it’s been the rule for a very long time. I flew military, corporate, airline—every operation had that rule. In the military, it was a crew debrief item, enlisted called out pilots and vice versa. Point being, we’re human and violating it does not equal death and destruction. It gets violated like lots of rules do.

Maybe the triggered co-pilot just keyed his mic to embarrass the captain. I’ve heard of worse done to pilots who were a little off the script.


Oh well at the end of the day SJC TWR stayed nice and pro.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:57 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Pilots talk in the cockpit.

Pilots are generally conservative or Republicans

No slurs were issued. It was a private conversation in the cockpit that went public by accident.

This will be a discussion involving the Chief Pilots. Not much more


For most big companies like an airline, when media relations has to get involved, it becomes a branding issue and often goes up to the higher level VPs or even COO. Currently at least one national news agencies is covering this. Airlines spend millions on their brand. This one pilot’s mistake just alienated a large segment of the population and it is being covered in many of the Bay Area news agencies. Brand image is so critical for an airline that I expect the VPs of flight operations to require the Chief Pilot to make some adjustments to training or expectations. Perhaps a bulletin will get sent out to all the pilots reinforcing sterile cockpit rules.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Galore
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:01 pm

If you defend this, then you simply consider piloting an airplane to be a trivial job and not the domain of professionals.

Yeah, it’s all “fun” (especially if you are a right wing type who never grew up) and omigosh you cancel culture types bla bla.

Doesn’t change the fact that you can’t have your cake and eat it to. A professional just doesn’t behave this way.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:03 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Pilots talk in the cockpit.

Pilots are generally conservative or Republicans

No slurs were issued. It was a private conversation in the cockpit that went public by accident.

This will be a discussion involving the Chief Pilots. Not much more

This suggests to me WN is OK with the status quo and doesn't want things to change.

Kind of a dangerous attitude to take, IMO.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:

How come is that the case? Solely in the U.S or generally worldwide too?


Because so many of them come from the military.

The boomer generation is aging out.

Hopefully this need to project their world view on to others ages out with them.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
For most big companies like an airline, when media relations has to get involved, it becomes a branding issue and often goes up to the higher level VPs or even COO. Currently at least one national news agencies is covering this. Airlines spend millions on their brand. This one pilot’s mistake just alienated a large segment of the population and it is being covered in many of the Bay Area news agencies. Brand image is so critical for an airline that I expect the VPs of flight operations to require the Chief Pilot to make some adjustments to training or expectations. Perhaps a bulletin will get sent out to all the pilots reinforcing sterile cockpit rules.

I think "alienated a large segment of the population" is over-stating things, but yes, brand matters.

WN is trying to grow in a less conservative place than its home turf.

It won't want to be seen as being "Boomer Airways" even if its pilots self identify that way.

It's just not good for business.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:09 pm

Galore wrote:
If you defend this, then you simply consider piloting an airplane to be a trivial job and not the domain of professionals.

Yeah, it’s all “fun” (especially if you are a right wing type who never grew up) and omigosh you cancel culture types bla bla.

Doesn’t change the fact that you can’t have your cake and eat it to. A professional just doesn’t behave this way.


Exactly. It seems part of the entitlement ethos that has swept the country - my freedom extends to all avenues of my life. Stop harshing on all my mallows man.

Employers are entitled to establish and defend company values as they see fit. Not a tree to be shaking just for ‘fun’.
 
travaz
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:38 pm

In 2019 I was on a WN flight PHX to LAX and all through push back and taxi ( I was in the first row of seats) you could hear gales of laughter from the cockpit. When we got to LAX and deplaned there was a jump seater also deplaning and the flight crew was still chuckling over something. Even the flight attendants noticed and were smiling and shaking thier heads. I was not worried about the safety of the flight.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:44 pm

I’m a boomer, I was raised around airline pilots (parents were good friends with #4 at a major airline, I was taught early on, “don’t say or do anything that wouldn’t be fit for the front page of NYT. Airline pilots of the era said, “don’t embarrass the company”; a version of “ride for the brand”. I’m betting this guy is NOT a boomer
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:48 pm

Revelation wrote:

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
For most big companies like an airline, when media relations has to get involved, it becomes a branding issue and often goes up to the higher level VPs or even COO. Currently at least one national news agencies is covering this. Airlines spend millions on their brand. This one pilot’s mistake just alienated a large segment of the population and it is being covered in many of the Bay Area news agencies. Brand image is so critical for an airline that I expect the VPs of flight operations to require the Chief Pilot to make some adjustments to training or expectations. Perhaps a bulletin will get sent out to all the pilots reinforcing sterile cockpit rules.

I think "alienated a large segment of the population" is over-stating things, but yes, brand matters.

WN is trying to grow in a less conservative place than its home turf.

It won't want to be seen as being "Boomer Airways" even if its pilots self identify that way.

It's just not good for business.


I was thinking about it from a marketing and branding perspective. There are many people in California as well as those who drive Priuses and Hyundai’s.

A google search of Southwest Airlines this morning will pick up headlines such as: Myrtle Beach Expansion (Good!), $49 fare sales (Good!) and “Southwest Airlines pilot’s obscenity-packed tirade about San Francisco ‘weirdos’ prompts FAA investigation” (Bad!). Marketing won’t be happy and will want the VP of flight Ops to ensure this doesn’t happen again
 
johns624
Posts: 4520
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:48 pm

johnboy wrote:
I’d rather that pilots in charge of flying a multi-million dollar jet with loads of passengers’ lives at stake to keep their minds on the job of safely flying the plane.
Like my brother used to tell scared passengers who would question him "Usually, if I get there safely, so will you". Remember, pilots don't want to die, either.
Last edited by johns624 on Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6618
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:50 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m a boomer, I was raised around airline pilots (parents were good friends with #4 at a major airline, I was taught early on, “don’t say or do anything that wouldn’t be fit for the front page of NYT. Airline pilots of the era said, “don’t embarrass the company”; a version of “ride for the brand”. I’m betting this guy is NOT a boomer


Im not a boomer but even I am getting pretty tired of them being scapegoated for literally everything.
 
Boeing747_600
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 4:01 am

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:05 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Boeing747_600 wrote:
Sidestepping the issue that some posters think his behaviour merely deserves a shrug, the bigot deserves to be axed for violating the sterile cockpit rule. Period.


So do you propose every pilot who has ever flown should be fired?


No, contrary to what you seem to believe , the overwhelming majority of pilots are professionals who keep their personal opinions to themselves and fly the damn plane.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6655
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:26 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:

How come is that the case? Solely in the U.S or generally worldwide too?


Because so many of them come from the military.


It is more than that. Worldwide. Type A Males in charge of large machines. Rules are black and white. No grey. Very militaristic background.

They also make a lot of money and hate paying high taxes
Last edited by jfklganyc on Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:26 pm

What has happened to society? People are so thin skinned and easily offended running for the tissue box.

This is such an overblown story and some people commenting here are such drama queens making a mountain out of a mole hill and demonizing this flight crew for something we have all done at some point with a coworker.

I remember working ramp back in the late 90’s we had captains who were notorious for telling us dirty jokes over the headset during push back. Ahhh the good old days when people had a sense of humor. Grow up people. Live laugh and love.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 1179
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:29 pm

To put just a little humor into this discussion, here's "Livin' The Dream, Part IV":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjKSAp2ssY8
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6655
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:30 pm

Boeing747_600 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Boeing747_600 wrote:
Sidestepping the issue that some posters think his behaviour merely deserves a shrug, the bigot deserves to be axed for violating the sterile cockpit rule. Period.


So do you propose every pilot who has ever flown should be fired?


No, contrary to what you seem to believe , the overwhelming majority of pilots are professionals who keep their personal opinions to themselves and fly the damn plane.



Hahaha.

In the first 15 minutes of flying with guys I know:

Where they live

If they are married

How much they made last year

What kind of car/boat/project they are embarking on

And who they voted for


What cockpit have you been in? I would like to visit
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 1179
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:31 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
To put just a little humor into this discussion, here's "Livin' The Dream":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjKSAp2ssY8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxz2hhSXuY
 
masonh2479
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:33 pm

11C wrote:
masonh2479 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

And who are these pilots who break the FAA's Sterile flight deck rule? I'm pretty sure it's your duty to report such illegal activity, especially if you are flying with them. You know, cause, common sense?

If the pilots actions aren’t detrimental to the safety of the flight, even if he does break the FAA reg, wouldn’t deem a report in my eyes. No one likes a snitch, especially when word spreads quick like being a scab does. The old saying is still true that the FAA isn’t happy until you’re not happy.


Luckily for all of us that what is reportable in your eyes doesn’t actually matter.

So if you were at 8000ft and climbing right after takeoff and your captain asked you how your day was, you would rat him out? Asking you how your day is is non essential communication, even though the other guy was obviously just trying to be nice. If you wanted strict 100% enforcement of the rule a lot of good pilots would be gone. He asked you how your day was and the plane didn’t instantly explode.

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that if something is deemed to be minor and not threatening the safety to the crew, it is not worth the report. Even though what the Southwest pilot said was uncalled for, as long as the cockpit remains calm, no issue. The hot mic is another story as there it is for the world to see.

If you are a pilot you should know the rule gets broken all the time. If you are a passenger, I guess you can continue sitting and believing the robots up front are doing as commanded by the FAA in keeping their mouths shut.

I want to make it clear I am not intending to be rude to you or insult you in anyway. Even though that was probably your intention in your previous reply. I am simply trying to show my side of belief.
Last edited by masonh2479 on Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6749
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:33 pm

nine4nine wrote:
What has happened to society? People are so thin skinned and easily offended running for the tissue box.

This is such an overblown story and some people commenting here are such drama queens making a mountain out of a mole hill and demonizing this flight crew for something we have all done at some point with a coworker.

I remember working ramp back in the late 90’s we had captains who were notorious for telling us dirty jokes over the headset during push back. Ahhh the good old days when people had a sense of humor. Grow up people. Live laugh and love.


That’s not the point. You completely miss the point. It’s not the content of what they said. It’s the circumstances. I tell dirty and non-PC jokes too, but I pick the right time for it like over a beer.

They were in the flight deck of a 737 with passengers on board awaiting takeoff clearance. They were not in a bar or men’s locket room.

Why is this difficult to understand?
 
nine4nine
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:41 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
What has happened to society? People are so thin skinned and easily offended running for the tissue box.

This is such an overblown story and some people commenting here are such drama queens making a mountain out of a mole hill and demonizing this flight crew for something we have all done at some point with a coworker.

I remember working ramp back in the late 90’s we had captains who were notorious for telling us dirty jokes over the headset during push back. Ahhh the good old days when people had a sense of humor. Grow up people. Live laugh and love.


That’s not the point. You completely miss the point. It’s not the content of what they said. It’s the circumstances.

They were in the flight deck of a 737 with passengers on board awaiting takeoff clearance. They were not in a bar or men’s locket room.



Yea so there were people on board. Did a little humor put their lives in jeopardy? Come on......
Have you actually ever been in a cockpit during flight? I have many times and believe me discussions and banter happen from the time the chocks are pulled till the time chocks are set. Anyone who says otherwise has either A-Never been on an active flight deck or B- are a liar.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6749
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:53 pm

nine4nine wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
What has happened to society? People are so thin skinned and easily offended running for the tissue box.

This is such an overblown story and some people commenting here are such drama queens making a mountain out of a mole hill and demonizing this flight crew for something we have all done at some point with a coworker.

I remember working ramp back in the late 90’s we had captains who were notorious for telling us dirty jokes over the headset during push back. Ahhh the good old days when people had a sense of humor. Grow up people. Live laugh and love.


That’s not the point. You completely miss the point. It’s not the content of what they said. It’s the circumstances.

They were in the flight deck of a 737 with passengers on board awaiting takeoff clearance. They were not in a bar or men’s locket room.



Yea so there were people on board. Did a little humor put their lives in jeopardy? Come on......
Have you actually ever been in a cockpit during flight? I have many times and believe me discussions and banter happen from the time the chocks are pulled till the time chocks are set. Anyone who says otherwise has either A-Never been on an active flight deck or B- are a liar.


I’ve been in commercial jumpseats prior to 9/11. I’ve also been in the flight deck on Boeing test flights. So yeah, I’ve been on active flight decks quite a few times. I’ve never once heard anything like that. Particularly the Boeing pilots are always 100% professional.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:54 pm

I've flown together with well over 1k pilots. I'm not sure if I've ever flown with one who'd bat 100 at sterile cockpit. Regulations and rules are there for a reason. I've been a part of chit chat that was distracting, and needed to be shelved for another time. Yet, the regulations aren't perfect. Doing rote routines without stimulus hour after hour, day after day, in abject silence makes the mind wander and daydream, or induces sleepiness. That's not any safer, and I've been in these situations where its a battle to stay alert, and your brain feels somewhere behind the airplane. And you don't feel connected with the other crewmember. I'm probably the most on my game with crews who know when and how to include some chatter to keep us having fun, happy, and engaged in the environment. Good judgment and common sense is required to discern when and what is said.

Since all of the outrage is from the non-pilot side, I'll try an imperfect analogy. I'm sure plenty you have talked on the phone, listened to music, etc while driving a car. Take it a step further: Imagine if outside of freeways it was against the law to speak to a passenger in the vehicle. Say you drive with somebody everyday for 5-8 hours a day. Sometimes even late at night. There are times when it's rush hour traffic, lots of merging vehicles and everyone needs to shut-up so you can drive. There's other times you're tired and sitting at a stop light, and having some chatter is more of a help than a hindrance at bringing you into the present tense. It's a balance between distracting the brain with non-essential fluff and keeping it from checking out due to a lack of interesting stimuli.
 
THS214
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:01 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:58 pm

JBoy wrote:
There are some people on here who would be horrible at a party! They would suck the fun out of life. Laughter is the spice of life.


Until a plane crashes and someone you love was in it!
 
BAINY3
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:01 pm

I am baffled by the amount of people in here saying it's just fine and dandy to violate FAA regulations.
 
krsw757
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:22 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:04 pm

While I’m not defending what was said, this isn’t any worse or more childish as the nonsense that’s transmitted over the guard frequency on a daily basis. And the majority of that is intentional. I feel, being fired for this (as some suggest) is a bit extreme. I hear this type of crap several times a day. We going to fire everybody? Talk about a pilot shortage.
 
THS214
Posts: 454
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Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:07 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
N667US wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

So do you propose every pilot who has ever flown should be fired?


If every single pilot nowadays is willing to break FAA regulations and risk people's lives to make small talk? Sure. The sterile cockpit rule exists for a reason, see Eastern Air Lines Flight 212, Colgan Air Flight 3407, Delta Airlines Flight 1141 etc.


If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.


You are right but if you break a rule, then another etc. Where does it stop? Its easy to say that I know my limits but so did all those pilots who crashed. Why not just follow the rules? Why not have a sterile cockpit when required?
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:18 pm

THS214 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
N667US wrote:

If every single pilot nowadays is willing to break FAA regulations and risk people's lives to make small talk? Sure. The sterile cockpit rule exists for a reason, see Eastern Air Lines Flight 212, Colgan Air Flight 3407, Delta Airlines Flight 1141 etc.


If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.


You are right but if you break a rule, then another etc. Where does it stop? Its easy to say that I know my limits but so did all those pilots who crashed. Why not just follow the rules? Why not have a sterile cockpit when required?


Are you a professional pilot in a CRM environment?
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1920
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:31 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
THS214 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

If planes crashed at 10% of the times sterile cockpit rule was broken, there wouldn’t be many pilots, passengers or planes. It’s a good rule, makes sense especially in a busy environment or low weather, but it’s not almighty God, either.


You are right but if you break a rule, then another etc. Where does it stop? Its easy to say that I know my limits but so did all those pilots who crashed. Why not just follow the rules? Why not have a sterile cockpit when required?


Are you a professional pilot in a CRM environment?


The poster to whom you are referring may not be but it doesn't sound like the pilot being talked about in this post was either
 
nine4nine
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: WN Pilot Goes on Anti-Bay Area Rant

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:45 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

That’s not the point. You completely miss the point. It’s not the content of what they said. It’s the circumstances.

They were in the flight deck of a 737 with passengers on board awaiting takeoff clearance. They were not in a bar or men’s locket room.



Yea so there were people on board. Did a little humor put their lives in jeopardy? Come on......
Have you actually ever been in a cockpit during flight? I have many times and believe me discussions and banter happen from the time the chocks are pulled till the time chocks are set. Anyone who says otherwise has either A-Never been on an active flight deck or B- are a liar.


I’ve been in commercial jumpseats prior to 9/11. I’ve also been in the flight deck on Boeing test flights. So yeah, I’ve been on active flight decks quite a few times. I’ve never once heard anything like that. Particularly the Boeing pilots are always 100% professional.


Well yea a Boeing test flight is different from a standard commercial flight. Because all data and communications are recorded and monitored and analyzed so the pilots are going to be very mindful of what they say and do.

Not to deviate from topic, but to find common ground I’m sure you and I can agree we miss those pre-9/11 regulations that allowed us jump seat access. I miss those days.

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