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NameOmitted
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:46 am

FGITD wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
What does CSM stand for?


CRM is cockpit or crew resource management.

Basically the idea that everyone on the flight deck should be able to give their thoughts and input without being deemed as challenging the captains authority. Working together.

I highly recommend reading about UA232 for an example of near flawless use of the method

Thank you, I will.
 
trintocan
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:15 am

Speedy752 wrote:
I’ve seen the documentaries and the air disaster shows on this, was the KLM pilot really as arrogant as they proclaimed? Blocking the planes for fuel, ignoring his FO completely etc? Apparently now Tenerife is a more popular airport than it was, I’ve known of a few friends who used it, can’t not think of the tragedy when I hear of the airport.


A bit about Tenerife's geography is key to understanding the accident. Tenerife now has two airports. The accident took place at Los Rodeos Airport (now referred to as Tenerife North) which is located in the Los Rodeos district of the large town of San Cristobal de la Laguna. TFN is also close to the island's capital of Santa Cruz. The airport is located nearly 700m above sea level and is fairly close to several of the island's mountains, notably Pico Teide (at 3718m high the tallest mountain in all of Spain). It is thus highly prone to fog descending from the mountains. At the time of the accident Los Rodeos was the island's only airport and, with tourism development somewhat slower than in neighbouring Gran Canaria, it was significantly quieter than Las Palmas (LPA, sometimes referred to as Gando). The diversion of 9 flights to Los Rodeos in one go would by itself have strained the airport's capacity (it could handle them but it was a stretch) and this ended up being a factor in all that happened afterwards. The Swiss Cheese model (Reason's model) helps one to see how everything contributed to the accident.

Tenerife's second airport, Tenerife South (TFS, also known as Reina (Queen) Sofia) was under construction at the time of the accident. The impetus for building it was the development of the huge tourist resort at Playa de las Americas nearby; with no motorways on the island at the time the drive from Los Rodeos would have taken close to 2 hours. (It takes about an hour and a half nowadays via the motorways.) The construction of TFS was accelerated after the accident and it opened in 1978. Situated in Granadilla de Abona, TFS is in the drier side of Tenerife and is fog-free. TFS' location also offers greater expansion potential. Since its opening TFS has grown to be by far the busier of the island's two airports with some 9 million passengers annually. Many holiday airlines, low-cost carriers and major carriers fly from across Europe to TFS so, if travelling to Tenerife, you are almost certainly landing at TFS unless going from Spain. TFN handles most flights to mainland Spain, the other Canaries, the Balearics and a few other places. It nonetheless still has a longer runway than TFS.

A memorial was built on Mesa Mota, a mountain overlooking TFN. It was dedicated in 2007 and is situated in a park. The" broken spiral staircase" design provides for quiet reflection on the huge tragedy that happened just down the hill.

Trintocan.
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bourbon
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:41 am

sevenair wrote:
Speedy752 wrote:
I’ve seen the documentaries and the air disaster shows on this, was the KLM pilot really as arrogant as they proclaimed? Blocking the planes for fuel, ignoring his FO completely etc? Apparently now Tenerife is a more popular airport than it was, I’ve known of a few friends who used it, can’t not think of the tragedy when I hear of the airport.


Incredible isn't it? Personally I'm stunned at how little people know. Off topic I know but it amazes me how few people who have heard of disasters such as Estonia where we in Europe lost 852 of our fellow citizens so it doesn't really surprise me that people haven't heard of this disaster. Unfortunately many people are now aware of Estonia thanks to a highly publicised conspiracy series. Still, I find it odd that living in the UK we have numerous overnight ferries just like Estonia yet few people have heard of it especially when it wasn't that long ago relatively.


I’d like to call myself somewhat cultured regarding world events but I can honestly say I had zero idea about the Estonian disaster until just now.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
The temperament history of that KLM captain is well documented. Unfortunately back then there was nothing done about his type. Now if enough FO's complain about a captain it will be dealt with. There are two seats in the flight deck for a reason.


Captain Jan Bartelski of KLM disputes any inference about van Zanten's temperament being problematic or arrogant. If anyone has any credibility, certainly it would be someone who have had experience flying with the accused. Similarly, he feels that Klaas Meurs wasn't weak that he would not openly disagree with van Zanten in the cockpit. What many documentaries often leave out is that Meurs had experience as a captain on KLM's DC-8s, and would have been a captain on the DC-9 had he not chosen to convert to the 747. Surely he knows how to deal with the captain.

The thing is, van Zanten had spent 12 weeks prior to his final flight in the simulator as an instructor. In the simulator, as the instructor he controls all the clearances. It could be the case that on his last flight, he inexplicably reverted to his sim instructor mindset and proceeded to take off without waiting for ATC clearance. A small error that had disastrous consequences.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:54 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The temperament history of that KLM captain is well documented. Unfortunately back then there was nothing done about his type. Now if enough FO's complain about a captain it will be dealt with. There are two seats in the flight deck for a reason.


Captain Jan Bartelski of KLM disputes any inference about van Zanten's temperament being problematic or arrogant. If anyone has any credibility, certainly it would be someone who have had experience flying with the accused. Similarly, he feels that Klaas Meurs wasn't weak that he would not openly disagree with van Zanten in the cockpit. What many documentaries often leave out is that Meurs had experience as a captain on KLM's DC-8s, and would have been a captain on the DC-9 had he not chosen to convert to the 747. Surely he knows how to deal with the captain.

The thing is, van Zanten had spent 12 weeks prior to his final flight in the simulator as an instructor. In the simulator, as the instructor he controls all the clearances. It could be the case that on his last flight, he inexplicably reverted to his sim instructor mindset and proceeded to take off without waiting for ATC clearance. A small error that had disastrous consequences.


If Meurs wouldn't openly disagree with van Zanten, isn't that a problem?
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
The temperament history of that KLM captain is well documented. Unfortunately back then there was nothing done about his type. Now if enough FO's complain about a captain it will be dealt with. There are two seats in the flight deck for a reason.


Captain Jan Bartelski of KLM disputes any inference about van Zanten's temperament being problematic or arrogant. If anyone has any credibility, certainly it would be someone who have had experience flying with the accused. Similarly, he feels that Klaas Meurs wasn't weak that he would not openly disagree with van Zanten in the cockpit. What many documentaries often leave out is that Meurs had experience as a captain on KLM's DC-8s, and would have been a captain on the DC-9 had he not chosen to convert to the 747. Surely he knows how to deal with the captain.

The thing is, van Zanten had spent 12 weeks prior to his final flight in the simulator as an instructor. In the simulator, as the instructor he controls all the clearances. It could be the case that on his last flight, he inexplicably reverted to his sim instructor mindset and proceeded to take off without waiting for ATC clearance. A small error that had disastrous consequences.


If Meurs wouldn't openly disagree with van Zanten, isn't that a problem?


As a matter of fact, Meurs did disagree openly. Remember, he stopped van Zanten the first time he started to spool the engines up for takeoff.

As to why he didn't stop van Zanten again the second time, maybe he thought they were cleared for takeoff since he and the rest of the KLM crew heard the word "OK" uttered by the Spanish controller, before the heterodyne caused by Robert Bragg getting on the radio at the same time squelched the rest of his commands.
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CanukinUSA
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:51 am

The link I posted links to as site which has much more information including Spanish and Dutch final reports on this accident:
http://www.project-tenerife.com/

Interesting article in TheAtlantic posted today on CRM lack of use in the shipping industry has contributed to accidents/incidents like last weeks Suez Canal incident. I will attempt to post a link to it shortly.
 
cynlb
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:03 pm

ABC news report- 3/28/77
https://youtu.be/POKdZlmLLOI

Air Crash Investigation The Tenerife Air Disaster
https://youtu.be/QNdWuxliye0
 
dfwjim1
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:34 pm

The bombing at the Gran Canaria Airport , of course, caused the PA and KLM 747s to divert to Terenife. Were the people who planted the bomb ever arrested for the bombing? If so did they also face charges related to the crash?

Couldn't find much of anything on the web related to this part of the Terinife accident.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:16 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
The bombing at the Gran Canaria Airport , of course, caused the PA and KLM 747s to divert to Terenife. Were the people who planted the bomb ever arrested for the bombing? If so did they also face charges related to the crash?

Couldn't find much of anything on the web related to this part of the Terinife accident.


They were evil people but they were not guilty for that accident.
 
tmu101
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:51 am

I seem to recall reading that Pan Am initially wanted to stay airborne in a holding pattern and not divert at all as the Los Rodeos airport was to shortly reopen. I don't recall why they weren't given clearance for that request. Can anyone confirm if that was indeed the case? Much appreciated.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:09 am

tmu101 wrote:
I seem to recall reading that Pan Am initially wanted to stay airborne in a holding pattern and not divert at all as the Los Rodeos airport was to shortly reopen. I don't recall why they weren't given clearance for that request. Can anyone confirm if that was indeed the case? Much appreciated.


That's correct, they wanted to hold as they had plenty of fuel to do so, but they were denied and directed to land.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:22 am

ClassicLover wrote:
tmu101 wrote:
I seem to recall reading that Pan Am initially wanted to stay airborne in a holding pattern and not divert at all as the Los Rodeos airport was to shortly reopen. I don't recall why they weren't given clearance for that request. Can anyone confirm if that was indeed the case? Much appreciated.


That's correct, they wanted to hold as they had plenty of fuel to do so, but they were denied and directed to land.


My understanding is that Las Palmas Airport authority didn't know how the closure would be, since the terrorist threat calls for several bombs. That's why they ordered Pan Am to divert to Los Rodeos.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:33 am

My father was doing his military service and his unit was one of the first called. The way he explains what he saw, it’s just terrifying. He recalls one airport fireman explaining how the smell of burned meat invaded his sleep for days. There was also the story between them of how they saw some spirits during clear nights...
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:27 pm

Thinking of the events still gives me goosebumps, it's still terrifying after 44 years. When it happened, I had just turned seven years, and I still remember the front page of the next day's (Dutch) news paper: it showed the picture of the burning PanAm wreck, with survivors running away from it, towards the photographer.

Air disasters are always terrifying, but most are rather one-dimensional: they have a terrorist attack, a technical malfunction or pilot error as a single source. This one, however, had so many different contributing factors, so many layers, 'what-ifs' and possible escapes that it borders on the unbelievable. And still, it happened, and it went terribly wrong. It could have been an ancient Greek drama, if not for the fact that aircraft didn't exist yet in the days of Sophocles and Euripides. The fact that both planes were not supposed to be at Tenerife at all, the fog, the KLM crew's decision to refuel, the radio heterodyne at that decisive moment, the fact that the local fire brigad, having arrived at the KLM 747, initially didn't realize that there was a second wreck a few hundred meters further down the runway, it is all hair-raising.

Image
[The two planes, probably just an hour before the incident. Photographed by a local from Tenerife. Talk about hair-raising...]

Also, the role of the KLM captain could be a Greek tragedy on its own.

TTailedTiger wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Very sad indeed. I can't help but reflect on TFS departures, many of which take you directly over TFN.
A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.

It's not toxic masculinity. Just being an arrogant jerk. The WN captain who insulted the FO and then crashed the plane at LGA was a female.


Sorry but this doesn't help.
J. Veldhuyzen van Zanten may perhaps have had quite some self confidence, but I don't believe he was anything like you describe him. He was a very, very experienced pilot, with a very long career at KLM that took him from the DC3, via DC4, -6, -7 and -8 to the left seat of the 747. He was not only the company's chief pilot, but also the chief instructor. If he were really such a bully, they wouldn't have appointed him as the chief instructor, that would make no sense. Just having good flying skills are not enough in that job, you must have well-developed human skills as well. Many apprentices described him later as 'empathic' and a really friendly guy. I don't say he didn't make a big mistake, but I trust he decision to start the takeoff run was taken in good faith. Also, as noted above, F-O Meurs had been a captain on the DC8 before, he was not someone that Veldhuyzen van Zanten could just 'bark off'. They must have honestly believed that the PA was clear - but should have verified that of course, believing is not enough.

It is a well-known fact that the KLM board immediately tried to contact Veldhuyzen van Zanten when they first heard about the crash, they wanted him to lead the investigation. He was their most trusted pilot.

But indeed, it is indeed really tragic that of all airline pilots, it was precisely this super-experienced, high-profile, highly valued poster-boy chief pilot that made this incomprehensible error. As I said, a plot for a Greek tragedy in itself.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:51 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
Thinking of the events still gives me goosebumps, it's still terrifying after 44 years. When it happened, I had just turned seven years, and I still remember the front page of the next day's (Dutch) news paper: it showed the picture of the burning PanAm wreck, with survivors running away from it, towards the photographer.

Air disasters are always terrifying, but most are rather one-dimensional: they have a terrorist attack, a technical malfunction or pilot error as a single source. This one, however, had so many different contributing factors, so many layers, 'what-ifs' and possible escapes that it borders on the unbelievable. And still, it happened, and it went terribly wrong. It could have been an ancient Greek drama, if not for the fact that aircraft didn't exist yet in the days of Sophocles and Euripides. The fact that both planes were not supposed to be at Tenerife at all, the fog, the KLM crew's decision to refuel, the radio heterodyne at that decisive moment, the fact that the local fire brigad, having arrived at the KLM 747, initially didn't realize that there was a second wreck a few hundred meters further down the runway, it is all hair-raising.

Image
[The two planes, probably just an hour before the incident. Photographed by a local from Tenerife. Talk about hair-raising...]

Also, the role of the KLM captain could be a Greek tragedy on its own.

TTailedTiger wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Very sad indeed. I can't help but reflect on TFS departures, many of which take you directly over TFN.
A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.

It's not toxic masculinity. Just being an arrogant jerk. The WN captain who insulted the FO and then crashed the plane at LGA was a female.


Sorry but this doesn't help.
J. Veldhuyzen van Zanten may perhaps have had quite some self confidence, but I don't believe he was anything like you describe him. He was a very, very experienced pilot, with a very long career at KLM that took him from the DC3, via DC4, -6, -7 and -8 to the left seat of the 747. He was not only the company's chief pilot, but also the chief instructor. If he were really such a bully, they wouldn't have appointed him as the chief instructor, that would make no sense. Just having good flying skills are not enough in that job, you must have well-developed human skills as well. Many apprentices described him later as 'empathic' and a really friendly guy. I don't say he didn't make a big mistake, but I trust he decision to start the takeoff run was taken in good faith. Also, as noted above, F-O Meurs had been a captain on the DC8 before, he was not someone that Veldhuyzen van Zanten could just 'bark off'. They must have honestly believed that the PA was clear - but should have verified that of course, believing is not enough.

It is a well-known fact that the KLM board immediately tried to contact Veldhuyzen van Zanten when they first heard about the crash, they wanted him to lead the investigation. He was their most trusted pilot.

But indeed, it is indeed really tragic that of all airline pilots, it was precisely this super-experienced, high-profile, highly valued poster-boy chief pilot that made this incomprehensible error. As I said, a plot for a Greek tragedy in itself.


If he was such a great, well respected guy, it makes me wonder why two colleagues in the flight deck didn't feel empowered enough to suitably challenge him and avert catastrophe.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 pm

Well, I think they honestly believed him in that the runway was indeed clear. It remains a mystery. I absolutely don't want to say that VvZ was without faults, far from that, but he has often been depicted as a real brute - I think he wasn't. A man with his stature, in his position, who makes such an infamous mistake - it adds to the tragedy that surrounds this disaster.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:53 pm

sevenair wrote:
Very sad indeed. I can't help but reflect on TFS departures, many of which take you directly over TFN.

A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.


You are confusing the term "masculinity" with something else.

That the captain of the KLM flight was male is not at all relevant to this accident.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:06 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Very sad indeed. I can't help but reflect on TFS departures, many of which take you directly over TFN.
A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.

It's not toxic masculinity. Just being an arrogant jerk. The WN captain who insulted the FO and then crashed the plane at LGA was a female.


Sorry but this doesn't help.
J. Veldhuyzen van Zanten may perhaps have had quite some self confidence, but I don't believe he was anything like you describe him. He was a very, very experienced pilot, with a very long career at KLM that took him from the DC3, via DC4, -6, -7 and -8 to the left seat of the 747. He was not only the company's chief pilot, but also the chief instructor. If he were really such a bully, they wouldn't have appointed him as the chief instructor, that would make no sense. Just having good flying skills are not enough in that job, you must have well-developed human skills as well. Many apprentices described him later as 'empathic' and a really friendly guy. I don't say he didn't make a big mistake, but I trust he decision to start the takeoff run was taken in good faith. Also, as noted above, F-O Meurs had been a captain on the DC8 before, he was not someone that Veldhuyzen van Zanten could just 'bark off'. They must have honestly believed that the PA was clear - but should have verified that of course, believing is not enough.

It is a well-known fact that the KLM board immediately tried to contact Veldhuyzen van Zanten when they first heard about the crash, they wanted him to lead the investigation. He was their most trusted pilot.

But indeed, it is indeed really tragic that of all airline pilots, it was precisely this super-experienced, high-profile, highly valued poster-boy chief pilot that made this incomprehensible error. As I said, a plot for a Greek tragedy in itself.


A really good post, thank you for that.

sevenair wrote:
If he was such a great, well respected guy, it makes me wonder why two colleagues in the flight deck didn't feel empowered enough to suitably challenge him and avert catastrophe.


Did you not read the Dutch report I linked - twice - in this thread? They believe that all three pilots on the KLM aircraft believed Pan Am was clear and that they were cleared for take-off.

Singling out the Captain as some kind of tyrant is one of the bad rumours that has been perpetuated about this accident. It is possible that the respect people had for his skills and as a person -influenced- their thinking that all must be well. That I firmly believe, as one does trust experience, especially when it's deserved. The old chestnut that the other two crew members were too afraid to speak up is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:18 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If Meurs wouldn't openly disagree with van Zanten, isn't that a problem?


sevenair wrote:
If he was such a great, well respected guy, it makes me wonder why two colleagues in the flight deck didn't feel empowered enough to suitably challenge him and avert catastrophe.


Why do you guys keep banging on about this when you've been told several times in this thread that *this accident* is what birthed the CRM movement?

Before CRM was taught, it was always more implied that the captain was the ultimate authority, whether an individual captain acted that way or not.

This accident must be viewed in that context.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:25 pm

ClassicLover wrote:

Did you not read the Dutch report I linked - twice - in this thread? They believe that all three pilots on the KLM aircraft believed Pan Am was clear and that they were cleared for take-off.

Singling out the Captain as some kind of tyrant is one of the bad rumours that has been perpetuated about this accident. It is possible that the respect people had for his skills and as a person -influenced- their thinking that all must be well. That I firmly believe, as one does trust experience, especially when it's deserved. The old chestnut that the other two crew members were too afraid to speak up is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.

If you read the Spanish report (which is just as valid as the Dutch one) then it calls into question about whether the entire crew knew they were cleared for takeoff (noting that the copilot reminded the captain that they did not have clearance, and that the captain began take off while the copilot was talking to ATC).

Also while the crew maybe thought the runway was clear at start transmissions from Pan Am to ATC created doubt with the FE who asked crew if Pan Am was clear (to which captain responded with yes) during take off run.

In the end what the pilots knew and thought is all just speculation. No one in that cockpit survived to give their interpretation of events As I said the Dutch report is no more valid than the Spanish one, and of course the Dutch report will naturally have a tendency to go softer of the KLM crew
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:30 pm

Polot wrote:
If you read the Spanish report (which is just as valid as the Dutch one) then it calls into question about whether the entire crew knew they were cleared for takeoff (noting that the copilot reminded the captain that they did not have clearance, and that the captain began take off while the copilot was talking to ATC).

Also while the crew maybe thought the runway was clear at start transmissions from Pan Am to ATC created doubt with the FE who asked crew if Pan Am was clear (to which captain responded with yes) during take off run.

In the end what the pilots knew and thought is all just speculation. No one in that cockpit survived to give their interpretation of events As I said the Dutch report is no more valid than the Spanish one, and of course the Dutch report will naturally have a tendency to go softer of the KLM crew


I agree, the Spanish report mentions quite a lot of different factors they thought caused the accident, which clearly the Dutch investigators disagreed with. It's very interesting to see the two different interpretations and two different points of view.

Also the point about the query from the Flight Engineer, the Dutch report says that both the Captain AND First Officer responded at the same time with their yes. Which is different to the Spanish report. It's fascinating stuff!
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:31 pm

dennypayne wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If Meurs wouldn't openly disagree with van Zanten, isn't that a problem?


sevenair wrote:
If he was such a great, well respected guy, it makes me wonder why two colleagues in the flight deck didn't feel empowered enough to suitably challenge him and avert catastrophe.


Why do you guys keep banging on about this when you've been told several times in this thread that *this accident* is what birthed the CRM movement?

Before CRM was taught, it was always more implied that the captain was the ultimate authority, whether an individual captain acted that way or not.

This accident must be viewed in that context.


This is the heart of the matter. Viewing a 1977 accident through a 2021 lens. Might as well ask why they didn't just load up flightradar on their phones to see if anyone showed up on the map.

Remember that despite the enormous differences, air travel's roots are firmly imbedded in ocean travel. Try questioning the captain of a ship and see where that lands you. But aviation has diverged from that over time due to accidents like this. It's not as easy for a sea captain to make 1 snap decision that will instantly kill 500+ people and reduce his ship to rubble that will fit in a single dump truck. So CRM developed, and bringing up concerns became a viable option.
 
sevenair
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:41 pm

dennypayne wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If Meurs wouldn't openly disagree with van Zanten, isn't that a problem?


sevenair wrote:
If he was such a great, well respected guy, it makes me wonder why two colleagues in the flight deck didn't feel empowered enough to suitably challenge him and avert catastrophe.


Why do you guys keep banging on about this when you've been told several times in this thread that *this accident* is what birthed the CRM movement?

Before CRM was taught, it was always more implied that the captain was the ultimate authority, whether an individual captain acted that way or not.

This accident must be viewed in that context.


That's exactly what I've been saying. Van Zanten was a CRM disaster. His personality and his actions caused the worst accident ever. He and Stanley Key are well known examples of the 'wrong stuff' that we have been learning to avoid for decades. I'm saying that they are less common these days, but Keys and van Vantens absolutely still exist.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:26 pm

sevenair wrote:
That's exactly what I've been saying. Van Zanten was a CRM disaster. His personality and his actions caused the worst accident ever. He and Stanley Key are well known examples of the 'wrong stuff' that we have been learning to avoid for decades. I'm saying that they are less common these days, but Keys and van Vantens absolutely still exist.


"His personality" is wholly unfair. There is zero evidence that his "personality" had any bearing on things. His actions, without a doubt caused the accident. The standard cockpit environment of the time, pre-CRM, is certainly a contributing factor here, but his personality, not so much.

Stanley Key - who you keep trying to bring into this thread - is a very, very different example altogether. (For those that don't know, he was Captain of BEA 548 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways_Flight_548 ) Insinuating that Captain Van Zanten acted the same as Captain Key or had the same personality is completely baseless.

That they both operated in a pre-CRM era correct.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:11 pm

FGITD wrote:
Things like the KL 747 blocking other aircraft while fueling isn’t arrogance or intentional. It’s a KLM Captain making a decision that benefits KLM.

The irony being that had they not fully refueled, they could've (1) departed before visibility deteriorated, (2) unstuck quickly enough to clear the PanAmerican.
So many necessary factors involved, but that decision was perhaps the most devastating on multiple levels.




NameOmitted wrote:
What does CSM stand for?

CRM - crew resource management.

Basically, how professionally/attentively/responsibly the crew communicates, gets along, and works together in order to follow process.

Or in short: the Captain is the leader, not a god.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
kaitak
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:28 pm

FGITD wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If Meurs wouldn't openly disagree with van Zanten, isn't that a problem?


sevenair wrote:


This is the heart of the matter. Viewing a 1977 accident through a 2021 lens. Might as well ask why they didn't just load up flightradar on their phones to see if anyone showed up on the map.

.


Very interesting comparison.

I do agree that a reference to van Zanten's personality is unfair. I've seen the television series that paints him as an overbearing bully, but again, if you refer to Bartelski's book, he doesn't come across that way. Also, I don't think there has been (as far as I've seen) any record of CVR communication which shows was van Zanten acted in an overbearing or bullying fashion towards either of his crew. All o them shared comments about the new Dutch FTLs, so van Zanten was not alone in his concern about that.

I think the fact that he had spent preceding weeks in the simulator is the crucial point. At the end of the day, we'll probably never know the real reason, but we know the outcome. He didn't go to Tenerife with the intention of causing death. Circumstances - the holes in the Swiss cheese - lined up and unfortunately, he made the wrong call. Mark 1 human error. He was a good pilot, technically very proficient and he did his best to do his job right. Tiredness, frustration, impatience, concern about FTLs and then his recent sim experience all came together and that combination proved explosive.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:14 pm

kaitak wrote:
FGITD wrote:
dennypayne wrote:



Very interesting comparison.

I do agree that a reference to van Zanten's personality is unfair. I've seen the television series that paints him as an overbearing bully, but again, if you refer to Bartelski's book, he doesn't come across that way. Also, I don't think there has been (as far as I've seen) any record of CVR communication which shows was van Zanten acted in an overbearing or bullying fashion towards either of his crew. All o them shared comments about the new Dutch FTLs, so van Zanten was not alone in his concern about that.

I think the fact that he had spent preceding weeks in the simulator is the crucial point. At the end of the day, we'll probably never know the real reason, but we know the outcome. He didn't go to Tenerife with the intention of causing death. Circumstances - the holes in the Swiss cheese - lined up and unfortunately, he made the wrong call. Mark 1 human error. He was a good pilot, technically very proficient and he did his best to do his job right. Tiredness, frustration, impatience, concern about FTLs and then his recent sim experience all came together and that combination proved explosive.


To me it sounds like the captain dismissed the flight engineer's concern that Pan Am was not clear of the runway.

1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}

https://www.tailstrike.com/270377.htm
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:51 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
To me it sounds like the captain dismissed the flight engineer's concern that Pan Am was not clear of the runway.

1706:32.43 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af dan? {Is he not clear then?}
1706:34.1 KLM-1 Wat zeg je? {What do you say?}
1706:34.15 KLM-? Yup.
1706:34.7 KLM-3 Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? {Is he not clear that Pan American?}
1706:35.7 KLM-1 Jawel. {Oh yes. - emphatic}


Look at the way the flight engineer asks the question though. If I were to say, "Is he not clear then?" that would be me being puzzled. The way the question is asked is important here.

The way people keep saying the Captain "dismissed" the F/E is not great. Had the flight engineer said, "PAN AM IS STILL ON THE RUNWAY, ABORT TAKE-OFF" and the Captain had told him to shut up, people might have a point. However, this didn't happen.

Saying "Oh yes" - emphatically, just means the Captain completely believed the PA flight was clear of the runway. Which makes sense, no pilot would commence a take-off if they thought another aircraft was in front of them.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:58 pm

Some people must have someone to blame, but James Reason proved them wrong three decades ago. Complex systems and all that.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:41 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Some people must have someone to blame, but James Reason proved them wrong three decades ago. Complex systems and all that.

Indeed, it is intriguing that the bulk of this thread seems to be fixating on whether a particular individual is to blame...

V/F
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Some people must have someone to blame, but James Reason proved them wrong three decades ago. Complex systems and all that.


I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the captain of Northwest Airlink 5719. Were the FO's description wrong there too?
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:18 am

Just glancing at Wiki entry, true about the captain there, but he bears no resemblance to Van Zanten in background, experience or company history. Plus KLM’s record, before and since, is far better than Airlink’s. The NTSB noted, beyond the captain, the company’s failures which are common in system accidents. Swiss cheese and all that. There being no relation to the topic, what’s your point?
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:54 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Unclekoru wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Much agreed, ClassicLover. None of the two crews and the controllers came to work intending to kill 500+ people and, in the case of KLM, themselves that day. There was a string of errors, misperceptions, human pressure (KLM captain’s near obsession with duty time limits, for one) that put the two planes together. Too much about placing blame on who caused it.


Nicely put. Until you've been in this sort of situation (the diversion and pressures associated with a low vis departure in a chaotic environment) it's hard to get your head around what likely played out. There are some pretty strong opinions on this site at times, often from those with little industry knowledge or experience. Understandable I guess, but still disappointing to read.

TTailedTiger wrote:

What you are claiming is wrong. At least in the US. A captain cannot override an FO that calls for a go around. If only Alitalia had that policy.... An FO who believes the captain has put the aircraft in immediate danger has the obligation to literally right the ship.


The Captain can override the F/O at my airline (non US "legacy" airline). He/she is the person ultimately in charge. But if you do, there are consequences, so you'd better be making the right call. I'd assume it's similiar in the US.

sevenair wrote:
Very sad indeed. I can't help but reflect on TFS departures, many of which take you directly over TFN.

A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.


Not a helpful, or accurate, statement. I'd suggest you google "toxic masculinity" for a better understanding of the term before slandering someone you seem to know very little about.


If what you are claiming is true then that would absolve FO's of any responsibility. I've read enough NTSB reports to know the FO still gets blame even if he wasn't the pilot flying.

By your tone I assume you are ready for single pilot ops? If the FO's opinion holds no weight then there really isn't a use for them being there.


As I was saying, a captain may override F/O advice given the authority that the law grants them, they are PIC. However if they do, they had better be right because there will be consequences. In the example you provide, if an F/O (or S/O) calls go-around and you ignore the call (which you are ultimately entitled to do), you'd want to have a good reason for doing so. Not to mention that flight deck CRM might be unpleasant for the rest of the trip. But ultimately, that is their perogative.

Given your "tone" (and your other posts), it's clear that you don't actually understand what you're talking about.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:04 am

Unclekoru wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Unclekoru wrote:

Nicely put. Until you've been in this sort of situation (the diversion and pressures associated with a low vis departure in a chaotic environment) it's hard to get your head around what likely played out. There are some pretty strong opinions on this site at times, often from those with little industry knowledge or experience. Understandable I guess, but still disappointing to read.



The Captain can override the F/O at my airline (non US "legacy" airline). He/she is the person ultimately in charge. But if you do, there are consequences, so you'd better be making the right call. I'd assume it's similiar in the US.



Not a helpful, or accurate, statement. I'd suggest you google "toxic masculinity" for a better understanding of the term before slandering someone you seem to know very little about.


If what you are claiming is true then that would absolve FO's of any responsibility. I've read enough NTSB reports to know the FO still gets blame even if he wasn't the pilot flying.

By your tone I assume you are ready for single pilot ops? If the FO's opinion holds no weight then there really isn't a use for them being there.


As I was saying, a captain may override F/O advice given the authority that the law grants them, they are PIC. However if they do, they had better be right because there will be consequences. In the example you provide, if an F/O (or S/O) calls go-around and you ignore the call (which you are ultimately entitled to do), you'd want to have a good reason for doing so. Not to mention that flight deck CRM might be unpleasant for the rest of the trip. But ultimately, that is their perogative.

Given your "tone" (and your other posts), it's clear that you don't actually understand what you're talking about.


No, it is a fact that most airlines require a go around if either pilot calls for one. AA is even on record stating that. You can review their testimony after the LIT crash. Short of being on fire or your last gallon of fuel there aren't many good reasons for dismissing it.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:24 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Unclekoru wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

If what you are claiming is true then that would absolve FO's of any responsibility. I've read enough NTSB reports to know the FO still gets blame even if he wasn't the pilot flying.

By your tone I assume you are ready for single pilot ops? If the FO's opinion holds no weight then there really isn't a use for them being there.


As I was saying, a captain may override F/O advice given the authority that the law grants them, they are PIC. However if they do, they had better be right because there will be consequences. In the example you provide, if an F/O (or S/O) calls go-around and you ignore the call (which you are ultimately entitled to do), you'd want to have a good reason for doing so. Not to mention that flight deck CRM might be unpleasant for the rest of the trip. But ultimately, that is their perogative.

Given your "tone" (and your other posts), it's clear that you don't actually understand what you're talking about.


No, it is a fact that most airlines require a go around if either pilot calls for one. AA is even on record stating that. You can review their testimony after the LIT crash. Short of being on fire or your last gallon of fuel there aren't many good reasons for dismissing it.


Incorrect, although I don't disagree that there aren't many good reasons for doing so, but that is absolutely the PIC's perogative and company SOPs cannot remove that right. That is an important distinction. The PIC can ignore the advice of other crew members if they believe that following that advice will jeopardise the safety of flight. They will have to justify this decision though (both at the time and afterwards).
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:34 pm

Blame and negligence are legal concepts, not safety concepts. Safety investigations, in aviation, medicine, rail and other areas, are directed at what happened, why and what is recommended to prevent it from happening in the future. Every CRM and safety course includes the concept of leadership and that these situations are not democracies. Captains must use their skills in leadership to gather information, get their charges inputs, use their RESOURCES, to make accurate and safe decisions, but it isn’t a situation where whoever makes the most mouse wins. That’s chaos. There’s only vote that counts and it’s the vote of the legally assigned captain.

TTailTiger, I’d suggest, at least, a few day course in Human Factors.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:25 pm

tmu101 wrote:
I seem to recall reading that Pan Am initially wanted to stay airborne in a holding pattern and not divert at all as the Los Rodeos airport was to shortly reopen. I don't recall why they weren't given clearance for that request. Can anyone confirm if that was indeed the case? Much appreciated.


Yes.

In MacArthur Job's fantastic book on airliner crashes, this is mentioned. No one was allowed to circle - either you landed or you diverted to another airport outside the Canary Islands. No reason was ever given for why planes couldn't circle and wait. I would imagine that because of the complete closure of the airport - including possibly the control tower - Spanish authorities wanted everyone out of the skies so that no one got lost. You know, for the safety of everyone involved.

I believe I also read that that the KLM plane specifically did not want to divert, as they decided to refuel at Tenerife to avoid the inevitable line of planes waiting to refuel at Santa Cruz. The KLM crew had a very strict work deadline, and if they didn't depart from Las Palmas on time, the crew would "time out" and not be able to complete the flight.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:08 pm

"Tower, KLMxyz, Apologies you were stepped on. Confirm we're cleared for take-off?" No assuming, no ambiguity, no slight on masculinity, pride or most importantly, professionalism.

KLM captain just assumed the runway was clear, even after it was questioned. He just assumed the take off clearance had been given, even though the transmission had been stepped on. Assuming made an ass out of him and the 582 others killed.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:15 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
"Tower, KLMxyz, Apologies you were stepped on. Confirm we're cleared for take-off?" No assuming, no ambiguity, no slight on masculinity, pride or most importantly, professionalism.

KLM captain just assumed the runway was clear, even after it was questioned. He just assumed the take off clearance had been given, even though the transmission had been stepped on. Assuming made an ass out of him and the 582 others killed.


Exactly, especially after the crew members questioned whether they had been given clearance to take off. Would have taken just a minute to clarify with the tower.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:39 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
In MacArthur Job's fantastic book on airliner crashes, this is mentioned.


Hear, hear! Everyone into aviation accidents should try to get hold of MacArthur Job's four Air Disaster books. They are ESSENTIAL reading for anyone into aviation accidents and indeed aviation, as they are easy to read, but very detailed on both how a crash happened, the investigation and the findings. Non-sensational, very factual and great books - as per here really - https://travelupdate.com/air-disaster-books-macarthur-job/
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:18 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
In MacArthur Job's fantastic book on airliner crashes, this is mentioned.


Hear, hear! Everyone into aviation accidents should try to get hold of MacArthur Job's four Air Disaster books. They are ESSENTIAL reading for anyone into aviation accidents and indeed aviation, as they are easy to read, but very detailed on both how a crash happened, the investigation and the findings. Non-sensational, very factual and great books - as per here really - https://travelupdate.com/air-disaster-books-macarthur-job/


I've got all four, and I have read every single word in them!

The explanation - and lessons learned - are Air Crash 101 required reading.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:07 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
FGITD wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The airways clearance isn’t the take-off clearance, two very different items.


Very true, but given that none of the communication had followed any standard pattern (including the callsign of Pan Am changing several times) I don't it's a big step to see why it might be misinterpreted. They even announced they were taking off, and the ATC responded with "okay"

Don't get me wrong, if there's one individual who shoulders most of the blame, it's the KL captain. I just don't believe it's a fair assessment that he's often depicted as a devil-may-care, arrogant pilot who nearly intentionally caused the crash.


Just to be clear, ATC responded with...

"Okay..." (pause of approximately two seconds) "... stand by for take-off, I will call you"

However, at the same time ATC transmitted the second half, Pan American transmitted, "No, eh, and we are still taxiing down the runway".

The simultaneous transmissions from PA and ATC caused a heterodyne/squeal in the KLM cockpit, so the two transmissions were not able to be heard clearly.

Agree with you on the point of the assessment of the KLM Captain. The Dutch report uses the KLM Flight Engineers' query to illustrate all in the cockpit thought Pan Am was clear of the runway. It literally says,

On the question of the flight engineer: "Is hij er niet af dan?" (Did he not clear the runway then?"), repeated with: "Is hij er niet af, die Pan American?" (Did he not clear the runway, that Pan American?), both pilots reply with: "Jawel" (Yes, he did).

This again shows that they were absolutely convinced that the runway was clear and take-off clearance had been given. The fact that the flight engineer puts this question shows that he, too, had the same conviction. The way in which he puts this question shows that this last received message was not consistent with the mental picture of the situation he had so far. If from this last message the flight engineer would have been convinced the runway was not clear, he would, to all reasonability, have taken action to abort the take-off, such as a.o. an exclamation to that effect.
(PDF page 43, page 63 in the document)

So yeah, I think the vilification of the Captain is a little overdone. Again, the link - https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/232/1081/finaldutchreport.pdf


I agree. Nobody that day intended this outcome. A pure tragedy. I also think it's unfair to judge someone who died as being the arrogant cause. Even arrogant pilots plan on going home safe, and getting his or her passengers home safe.
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meecrob
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:57 am

ChrisKen wrote:
"Tower, KLMxyz, Apologies you were stepped on. Confirm we're cleared for take-off?" No assuming, no ambiguity, no slight on masculinity, pride or most importantly, professionalism.

KLM captain just assumed the runway was clear, even after it was questioned. He just assumed the take off clearance had been given, even though the transmission had been stepped on. Assuming made an ass out of him and the 582 others killed.


While anyone can see that if that action was taken, the accident would have been avoided, but it neglects to consider human factors in modern air crash investigation which can be paraphrased to "Why do highly trained and competent professionals have implausible lapses in judgement?"
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:31 am

meecrob wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
"Tower, KLMxyz, Apologies you were stepped on. Confirm we're cleared for take-off?" No assuming, no ambiguity, no slight on masculinity, pride or most importantly, professionalism.

KLM captain just assumed the runway was clear, even after it was questioned. He just assumed the take off clearance had been given, even though the transmission had been stepped on. Assuming made an ass out of him and the 582 others killed.


While anyone can see that if that action was taken, the accident would have been avoided, but it neglects to consider human factors in modern air crash investigation which can be paraphrased to "Why do highly trained and competent professionals have implausible lapses in judgement?"


Which applies to any transportation safety investigation along with operating theater safety, power-plants, marine safety.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:55 am

ClassicLover wrote:
"His personality" is wholly unfair. There is zero evidence that his "personality" had any bearing on things. His actions, without a doubt caused the accident. The standard cockpit environment of the time, pre-CRM, is certainly a contributing factor here, but his personality, not so much.


I've seen the show 'Crash of the Century' and I can see why Van Zanten has this reputation as the acting made him out to be an arrogant, short-fused person who wasn't happy with the diversion situation and was desperate to get going again before duty time limits prevented them from returning to AMS the same day. Whether it was truly representative of his mood that day or dramatised for TV we'll never know. There was a scene in that show where he shouted down the crew phone to one of the cabin crew about a family that hadn't yet re-boarded the plane and therefore delaying things - again, was that a true account of his conduct towards his colleagues that day or dramatised?

Out of interest, does anybody know if that show is available somewhere? A full video of it (approx. 90 minutes long) used to be on YouTube, but it has since been taken down and I couldn't find it the last time I looked.

As an aside, the most luckiest person that day from the KLM flight must surely be Robina van Lanschot - the tour guide that didn't re-board as she just happened to live in Tenerife at the time.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 am

There is also the problem of the assignment for the taxiway turn for PA (Clipper) 1736; it required two 148-degree turns to be negotiated...the second one of which was impossible in a 747. (Tenerife North was not designed to handle multiple wide-body jets at once, but 5 wide-bodies were diverted there.) Today, the only regular wide-body flight TFN will see is a PU A343 from CCS. (TFS, which is near sea level, was under construction when this disaster, at 2100 feet AMSL, happened; this was to avoid the fog issues with high clouds at what is now TFN). The clouds will be a problem at TFN but not at TFS. Also, no radar system existed at the time at TFN.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:29 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
I've seen the show 'Crash of the Century' and I can see why Van Zanten has this reputation as the acting made him out to be an arrogant, short-fused person who wasn't happy with the diversion situation and was desperate to get going again before duty time limits prevented them from returning to AMS the same day. Whether it was truly representative of his mood that day or dramatised for TV we'll never know. There was a scene in that show where he shouted down the crew phone to one of the cabin crew about a family that hadn't yet re-boarded the plane and therefore delaying things - again, was that a true account of his conduct towards his colleagues that day or dramatised?

Out of interest, does anybody know if that show is available somewhere? A full video of it (approx. 90 minutes long) used to be on YouTube, but it has since been taken down and I couldn't find it the last time I looked.

As an aside, the most luckiest person that day from the KLM flight must surely be Robina van Lanschot - the tour guide that didn't re-board as she just happened to live in Tenerife at the time.

Which reminds me, if that family not re-boarding the plane was an issue with regards to delaying departure, how did Robina get away with it.
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:28 pm

sevenair wrote:

A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.


You're trying to bring SJW terminology into a workplace scenario that doesn't belong. Toxic environments can be made by both male and female bosses/managers (I'm intentionally leaving out the term "leader" here). Van Zanten was a toxic boss because it was his way or the highway, and did not listen to the concerns brought forth by his subordinate crew members before it was too late.

The recent WN pilot rant about the San Francisco Bay Area, while contextually different than what the KLM crew experienced, had me thinking of this accident. There's no place for a bad attitude in the cockpit.
 
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:56 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
sevenair wrote:

A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.


You're trying to bring SJW terminology into a workplace scenario that doesn't belong. Toxic environments can be made by both male and female bosses/managers (I'm intentionally leaving out the term "leader" here). Van Zanten was a toxic boss because it was his way or the highway, and did not listen to the concerns brought forth by his subordinate crew members before it was too late.

The recent WN pilot rant about the San Francisco Bay Area, while contextually different than what the KLM crew experienced, had me thinking of this accident. There's no place for a bad attitude in the cockpit.



Does the CVR transcript from the KLM flight support your assertion on the captain? What’s been posted here doesn’t.

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