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phatfarmlines
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
sevenair wrote:

A tragic example of CRM disasters and the toxic masculinity that still risks lives to this day.


You're trying to bring SJW terminology into a workplace scenario that doesn't belong. Toxic environments can be made by both male and female bosses/managers (I'm intentionally leaving out the term "leader" here). Van Zanten was a toxic boss because it was his way or the highway, and did not listen to the concerns brought forth by his subordinate crew members before it was too late.

The recent WN pilot rant about the San Francisco Bay Area, while contextually different than what the KLM crew experienced, had me thinking of this accident. There's no place for a bad attitude in the cockpit.



Does the CVR transcript from the KLM flight support your assertion on the captain? What’s been posted here doesn’t.


"Is he not clear, that Pan American?”

“Oh, yes.”

The FO likely didn't speak up to support the SO's observation at that point since the FO was already harangued by Van Zanten. Not that it mattered, collision would have been imminent as they were rolling at that point.

And I'll add one more thing: just because someone puts an act in front of senior leadership doesn't mean it will translate into the actual workplace environment.
 
meecrob
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:37 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
meecrob wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
"Tower, KLMxyz, Apologies you were stepped on. Confirm we're cleared for take-off?" No assuming, no ambiguity, no slight on masculinity, pride or most importantly, professionalism.

KLM captain just assumed the runway was clear, even after it was questioned. He just assumed the take off clearance had been given, even though the transmission had been stepped on. Assuming made an ass out of him and the 582 others killed.


While anyone can see that if that action was taken, the accident would have been avoided, but it neglects to consider human factors in modern air crash investigation which can be paraphrased to "Why do highly trained and competent professionals have implausible lapses in judgement?"


Which applies to any transportation safety investigation along with operating theater safety, power-plants, marine safety.


I'm not sure what you are saying. Did I miss something? This accident isn't a simple mistake, no matter how much someone who has never been in that situation wants to Monday morning quarterback it. Their response,"oh, well, if they just applied intelligence, they wouldn't be in this situation" seems to be the very definition of the dunning-kruger effect.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:53 pm

What I’m saying, there are many areas where otherwise very intelligent, very professional people under stress make inexplicable mistakes when those errors are viewed after the fact. No human error in tightly coupled, complex environments is “simple”. That’s why I’m not getting the theory that crash is all on Van Zanten, it’s far more complex. If one assigns him all the blame, one is missing a lot of factors in an effort to explain the unexplainable. It’s is not just air crash where we see happen—medicine, trains, ships. I just did a Human Factors course and the medical people are deep into investigating these same errors.
 
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DKNEF
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:23 am

I wonder if anyone survived the KLM flight? It looks like the plane only broke apart in two pieces and I am sure there could been a few survivors after impact but didn't had time to evacuate.?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:25 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
Out of interest, does anybody know if that show is available somewhere? A full video of it (approx. 90 minutes long) used to be on YouTube, but it has since been taken down and I couldn't find it the last time I looked.


Here it is. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5mfcyq
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:59 pm

AirKevin wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I've seen the show 'Crash of the Century' and I can see why Van Zanten has this reputation as the acting made him out to be an arrogant, short-fused person who wasn't happy with the diversion situation and was desperate to get going again before duty time limits prevented them from returning to AMS the same day. Whether it was truly representative of his mood that day or dramatised for TV we'll never know. There was a scene in that show where he shouted down the crew phone to one of the cabin crew about a family that hadn't yet re-boarded the plane and therefore delaying things - again, was that a true account of his conduct towards his colleagues that day or dramatised?

Out of interest, does anybody know if that show is available somewhere? A full video of it (approx. 90 minutes long) used to be on YouTube, but it has since been taken down and I couldn't find it the last time I looked.

As an aside, the most luckiest person that day from the KLM flight must surely be Robina van Lanschot - the tour guide that didn't re-board as she just happened to live in Tenerife at the time.

Which reminds me, if that family not re-boarding the plane was an issue with regards to delaying departure, how did Robina get away with it.


Robina was, I believe, the woman who put together this tour package, and had originally planned to fly from La Palma to Tenerife after the group disembarked. She had flown with the group from AMS, but when the plane diverted, she stayed behind.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:27 pm

DKNEF wrote:
I wonder if anyone survived the KLM flight? It looks like the plane only broke apart in two pieces and I am sure there could been a few survivors after impact but didn't had time to evacuate.?

Nobody on board the KLM flight survived. After the impact, the fuel on board ignited.
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I've seen the show 'Crash of the Century' and I can see why Van Zanten has this reputation as the acting made him out to be an arrogant, short-fused person who wasn't happy with the diversion situation and was desperate to get going again before duty time limits prevented them from returning to AMS the same day. Whether it was truly representative of his mood that day or dramatised for TV we'll never know. There was a scene in that show where he shouted down the crew phone to one of the cabin crew about a family that hadn't yet re-boarded the plane and therefore delaying things - again, was that a true account of his conduct towards his colleagues that day or dramatised?

Out of interest, does anybody know if that show is available somewhere? A full video of it (approx. 90 minutes long) used to be on YouTube, but it has since been taken down and I couldn't find it the last time I looked.

As an aside, the most luckiest person that day from the KLM flight must surely be Robina van Lanschot - the tour guide that didn't re-board as she just happened to live in Tenerife at the time.

Which reminds me, if that family not re-boarding the plane was an issue with regards to delaying departure, how did Robina get away with it.

Robina was, I believe, the woman who put together this tour package, and had originally planned to fly from La Palma to Tenerife after the group disembarked. She had flown with the group from AMS, but when the plane diverted, she stayed behind.

That would be correct. She stayed behind because she lived in Tenerife, so didn't see a point in re-boarding the flight only to have to fly back to Tenerife again. In the documentary in question, the boarding was almost completed when a flight attendant called up the flight deck to let them know that a family of four was still missing, at which point the Captain really let her have it. My question was, if that family of four being missing was such a huge issue, how did Robina manage to get away with not re-boarding the flight.
Captain Kevin
 
mjgbtv
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:48 pm

AirKevin wrote:
DKNEF wrote:
I wonder if anyone survived the KLM flight? It looks like the plane only broke apart in two pieces and I am sure there could been a few survivors after impact but didn't had time to evacuate.?

Nobody on board the KLM flight survived. After the impact, the fuel on board ignited.
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Which reminds me, if that family not re-boarding the plane was an issue with regards to delaying departure, how did Robina get away with it.

Robina was, I believe, the woman who put together this tour package, and had originally planned to fly from La Palma to Tenerife after the group disembarked. She had flown with the group from AMS, but when the plane diverted, she stayed behind.

That would be correct. She stayed behind because she lived in Tenerife, so didn't see a point in re-boarding the flight only to have to fly back to Tenerife again. In the documentary in question, the boarding was almost completed when a flight attendant called up the flight deck to let them know that a family of four was still missing, at which point the Captain really let her have it. My question was, if that family of four being missing was such a huge issue, how did Robina manage to get away with not re-boarding the flight.



If the crew knew that the guide had no intention of re-boarding would they care? I would think the issue with the family was that they were still KLM's responsibility to get to Las Palmas with some potential consequences if they were left behind.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:04 pm

mjgbtv wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
DKNEF wrote:
I wonder if anyone survived the KLM flight? It looks like the plane only broke apart in two pieces and I am sure there could been a few survivors after impact but didn't had time to evacuate.?

Nobody on board the KLM flight survived. After the impact, the fuel on board ignited.
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Robina was, I believe, the woman who put together this tour package, and had originally planned to fly from La Palma to Tenerife after the group disembarked. She had flown with the group from AMS, but when the plane diverted, she stayed behind.

That would be correct. She stayed behind because she lived in Tenerife, so didn't see a point in re-boarding the flight only to have to fly back to Tenerife again. In the documentary in question, the boarding was almost completed when a flight attendant called up the flight deck to let them know that a family of four was still missing, at which point the Captain really let her have it. My question was, if that family of four being missing was such a huge issue, how did Robina manage to get away with not re-boarding the flight.

If the crew knew that the guide had no intention of re-boarding would they care?

But did they know that.
Captain Kevin
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:36 pm

AirKevin wrote:
In the documentary in question, the boarding was almost completed when a flight attendant called up the flight deck to let them know that a family of four was still missing, at which point the Captain really let her have it.

Is this substantiated in the CVR transcripts or reports? Or is it just dramatic licence? The thing with dramatic re-enactments in documentaries is they can very quickly become taken as truth.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
CairnterriAIR
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:44 pm

One thing that sticks in my mind is overly strict repercussions for deviation from standard rules which end up causing individuals to perform their tasks in a rushed or substandard manner to avoid said punishment. In this case the Dutch regulations concerning duty time. In the case of the KLM crew, they were discussing duty time and the strict punishment they would receive if they exceeded it even if only a short time over. At the same time they would have to deal with the higher ups from the airline for having to delay passengers and the expenses included. It seems that they were put into a “damned if they do, damned if they don’t” situation which clouded their judgement. A smaller scale but similar event took place with several fast food restaurants here in the U.S. some years ago....offering patrons “Wait No More Than 10 Minutes Or It's Free” deals in their meals. Too many late meals would result in management writing up staff...as a result, kitchens were rushing meals out to beat the 10 minute deadline....resulting a string of patrons dying due to both E.Coli and Salmonella poisoning. In simple terms....sometimes rules can be too strict and when too much pressure is placed on individuals, accidents happen. I personally think the Dutch government and airline policy which placed excessive pressure upon the crew should have both been a factor and both held responsible in part to the crash.
 
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william
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:48 pm

I was not old enough to fully understand the gravity of the whole situation. Still remember the Life magazine cover picture on this accident.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:58 pm

I don't understand why some view it as inappropriate to put blame on the person most responsible for bringing everything down. Sure, there are other minor factors but someone has to light the match. That was the KLM captain in this case. Just like that cowboy USAF pilot that crashed the B-52 when practicing for an airshow. Plenty of people knew he was a dangerous pilot and had pulled stunts before that almost resulted in a crash. One commander even forbid any of his officers to fly with him. But yet no one stopped him. Why? Pilots are not gods despite what they may think of themselves. Why is management so reluctant to take action against them? Fear of union action?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:14 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
In the documentary in question, the boarding was almost completed when a flight attendant called up the flight deck to let them know that a family of four was still missing, at which point the Captain really let her have it.

Is this substantiated in the CVR transcripts or reports? Or is it just dramatic licence? The thing with dramatic re-enactments in documentaries is they can very quickly become taken as truth.

I'm asking the question based on the documentary, and the main question was regarding the passenger that never re-boarded the plane. I'm very much aware there's a difference between the documentary and what the CVR transcripts actually state.
Captain Kevin
 
FGITD
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:38 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't understand why some view it as inappropriate to put blame on the person most responsible for bringing everything down. Sure, there are other minor factors but someone has to light the match. That was the KLM captain in this case. Just like that cowboy USAF pilot that crashed the B-52 when practicing for an airshow. Plenty of people knew he was a dangerous pilot and had pulled stunts before that almost resulted in a crash. One commander even forbid any of his officers to fly with him. But yet no one stopped him. Why? Pilots are not gods despite what they may think of themselves. Why is management so reluctant to take action against them? Fear of union action?


Because "most responsible" doesn't really carry any real value in an investigation like this. What about the controllers who allegedly had a football match on? Or the PA crew who missed their taxi exit? Had they followed their instructions, they'd have been off the runway like they were supposed to. So therefore they weren't where they were supposed to be, it's their fault. Done. See the investigative lapse in that logic?

If you wish to blame the captain, then surely you also agree that Continental is 100% responsible for AF4590, right? No metal strip, no crash.

You keep drawing comparisons to pilots who were known/recorded as bad airmen. But no such history exists for the KL captain other than that he sounded annoyed, and per the reports, "emphatically" said oh yes.
 
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vhqpa
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:20 am

AirKevin wrote:
mjgbtv wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Nobody on board the KLM flight survived. After the impact, the fuel on board ignited.

That would be correct. She stayed behind because she lived in Tenerife, so didn't see a point in re-boarding the flight only to have to fly back to Tenerife again. In the documentary in question, the boarding was almost completed when a flight attendant called up the flight deck to let them know that a family of four was still missing, at which point the Captain really let her have it. My question was, if that family of four being missing was such a huge issue, how did Robina manage to get away with not re-boarding the flight.

If the crew knew that the guide had no intention of re-boarding would they care?

But did they know that.


In that particular documentary it depicts her asking to be offloaded in Tenerife only to be denied, but she decided that they couldn't make her get back on the plane even going as far as walking with her colleagues/friends towards the boarding gate only to not board.

Given the discrepancy with the family of four unaccounted for, but she apparently went missing unnoticed. I'm wondering if she was allowed to offload herself, and the denial was dramatised for the program, otherwise it doesn't add up. Either that given they knew that she requested to be offloaded and didn't board the flight they figured that even though she had been told no she left the airport anyway, and there was no point chasing her up.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 747 Accident at Tenerife (44 Years Ago)

Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:04 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't understand why some view it as inappropriate to put blame on the person most responsible for bringing everything down. Sure, there are other minor factors but someone has to light the match. That was the KLM captain in this case. Just like that cowboy USAF pilot that crashed the B-52 when practicing for an airshow. Plenty of people knew he was a dangerous pilot and had pulled stunts before that almost resulted in a crash. One commander even forbid any of his officers to fly with him. But yet no one stopped him. Why? Pilots are not gods despite what they may think of themselves. Why is management so reluctant to take action against them? Fear of union action?


Again, legal proceedings are different than safety investigations. It’s about why it happened and how to prevent it. Start throwing blame and punishment around and safety problems get covered up by those at the coal face. The CO in the B-52 case was killed in the crash, very, very different set of circumstances. As far as is known Van Zanten wasn’t a rogue pilot, Bud Holland was. The Wing CO or the Vice, can’t remember pleaded guilty to dereliction of duty. Ever try administratively discharging or running an FEB on an officer? Hint: I have and it isn’t easy.

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