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RJMAZ
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:38 am

Vladex wrote:
No , it doesn't fit 787 and just barely A350 but only 19" ground clearance .

Ultrafan will sit closer to the wing.

Image

The exhaust from the XWB is more than 2 feet below the lower surface of the wing. Most of the extra diameter of Ultrafan will go upwards without much issue at all. The bottom of the nacelle can still remain circular. The engine exhaust and top edge of the nacelle will be closer to the wing but a safe distance like the 737NG.

Airbus will not have to resort to doing what Boeing did on the 737MAX and moving the engine forward and upwards.

Baldr wrote:
As reported by Guy Norris in the Feb. 8-21 (page 19) edition of AW&ST, the UltraFan demonstrator engine will have a 15:1-bypass-ratio fan and it will be rated at 87,000 lb thrust -- and not a 13:1 bypass ratio and a thrust of 97,000 lbf, as you seem to believe.

All the reports have been "up to 15:1" bypass ratio.

It would be impossible to fit a 15:1 bypass ratio engine under the A350-1000 and hit 97,000lb of thrust. So Airbus would need to produce two engines with the same fan diameter. A 13:1 bypass ratio engine with 97,000lb of thrust for the A350-1000 and a 15:1 bypass ratio engine with 84,000lb of the thrust for the A350-900.

I could see them derating the 13:1 bypass ratio engine for the A350-900.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:45 am

FGITD wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Didn’t see anyone actually answer...

Really? Post #13:
mxaxai wrote:
In pieces, similar to a propeller?


“Similar to a propellor” doesn’t really explain how you ship the biggest turbofan engines in existence.

My apologies, I’ll refrain from sharing my professional experiences on this forum in the future.

Please don’t refrain - I appreciated the more detailed explanation even though the original “in pieces” gave a fair idea of it.

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randomdude83
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:01 am

May I Dream? how about Airbus actually market around an a380 with a wing that actually treats the a380 for its current size and not have any room for stretch or expansion or any of that nonsense like the current a380 has.

I'm betting what airbus comes up with will look similar in proportion to the A321 Neo or A300 series.

And then put two ultra fans on? :D

maybe even redesign the under carage for three A35K boggies?
 
airzona11
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:44 am

LAX772LR wrote:
UA748i wrote:
Im curious as to what capabilities this will give the A350 going forward.

Yeah, does sorta make you wonder "what's next" for aircraft that can already op 18hr+ flights (even without the -ULR modifications) already.


Makes me reminisce about the fantasy casinos and other entertainment the A380! Just crazy to think about the current let alone tomorrow endurance this would allow, while sipping fuel.
 
Baldr
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:02 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Baldr wrote:
As reported by Guy Norris in the Feb. 8-21 (page 19) edition of AW&ST, the UltraFan demonstrator engine will have a 15:1-bypass-ratio fan and it will be rated at 87,000 lb thrust -- and not a 13:1 bypass ratio and a thrust of 97,000 lbf, as you seem to believe.

All the reports have been "up to 15:1" bypass ratio.

It would be impossible to fit a 15:1 bypass ratio engine under the A350-1000 and hit 97,000lb of thrust. So Airbus would need to produce two engines with the same fan diameter. A 13:1 bypass ratio engine with 97,000lb of thrust for the A350-1000 and a 15:1 bypass ratio engine with 84,000lb of the thrust for the A350-900.

I could see them derating the 13:1 bypass ratio engine for the A350-900.


Impossible?

As I pointed out in my previous comment: By shifting the engine's centre of gravity forward and upwards, much larger engines can be mounted to the wing.

Also, the larger UltraFan engine that will be developed for the A350-1000neo will also power the stretched A350-2000 which will require higher thrust levels (i.e. between 101,000 lbf and 103,000 lbf). Hence, the fan diameter would be increased to 150 inches.

Again, please do take a look at this article:

https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4310/8/1/2


2.1.2. Modified Aircraft Configuation

With the UltraFan, Rolls-Royce plans to enhance the next-generation engine with an overall pressure ratio of more than 70:1 [20]. An UltraFan demonstrator is developed within the European Union founded project Clean Sky. Since the UltraFan has a much larger diameter than conventional engines, a key focal point in the project framework Engines ITD is the analysis of the aerodynamic coupling effects of the engine and the wing [21].

Figure 3 visualizes the difference in the outer shape of the two engine variants. At the top half of Figure 3, it can be seen that the ground clearance between the two variations stays the same. The topology of the load-carrying structures and the element partition is unchanged between the baseline and the modified configuration.

Table 2 lists the engine parameters for the baseline and the modified configuration. The outer diameter is increased by one meter and the mass per engine by 850 kg. The position of the engine’s center of gravity (CG) is shifted one meter to the front and a half meter upwards.
 
Sokes
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:13 am

RJMAZ wrote:
It would be impossible to fit a 15:1 bypass ratio engine under the A350-1000 and hit 97,000lb of thrust. So Airbus would need to produce two engines with the same fan diameter. A 13:1 bypass ratio engine with 97,000lb of thrust for the A350-1000 and a 15:1 bypass ratio engine with 84,000lb of the thrust for the A350-900.

I could see them derating the 13:1 bypass ratio engine for the A350-900.

That makes sense. So it's probably mostly about the A350-1000.
Reminds me of A321 vs A321 Neo.
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mxaxai
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:44 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus will not have to resort to doing what Boeing did on the 737MAX and moving the engine forward and upwards.

While modern CFD allows engineers to avoid the old rule-of-thumb approach regarding the position of an engine, the aerodynamic interaction of the wing and engine nacelle remains quite delicate.

The "forward and upwards" that Boeing chose on the MAX is not just to keep the nacelle from bumping into the wing but also to ensure a satisfactory airflow in the gap.

It is quite possible that an A350neo will have to modify the position of the engine, though likely not as pronounced as on the 737.
 
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keesje
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 pm

Engine BPR is determined by the core engine too. If that is e.g. slightly narrower than the XWB, that could improve BPR. I think Airbus foresees a A350-1000 stretch over time. That or 777X could be launching customers for a bigger RR engine. https://www.flightglobal.com/systems-an ... 31.article There is upside potential when the market recovers and new A380 are no longer for sale.
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Baldr
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:18 pm

mxaxai wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus will not have to resort to doing what Boeing did on the 737MAX and moving the engine forward and upwards.

While modern CFD allows engineers to avoid the old rule-of-thumb approach regarding the position of an engine, the aerodynamic interaction of the wing and engine nacelle remains quite delicate.

The "forward and upwards" that Boeing chose on the MAX is not just to keep the nacelle from bumping into the wing but also to ensure a satisfactory airflow in the gap.

It is quite possible that an A350neo will have to modify the position of the engine, though likely not as pronounced as on the 737.


Actually, the "forward and upwards" will be even more pronounced with an UltraFan-powered A350neo than with the LEAP-1B engine on the MAX.

https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4310/8/1/2
 
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Revelation
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:46 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It doesn't seem wise when RR claims they don't have much cash around.

It also isn't wise to stop developing new products. UF has been underway for the better part of a decade now. It makes sense to carry on at least some work to learn what can be learned from the work so far. Tooling up for a production run without a committed program to hang the engine on would not be wise.

Vladex wrote:
This was always meant for A380 NEO but apparently it was not meant to be.

A380 was a square peg forced into a round hole. As noted the same engines can go onto A350 with a bit of careful work on geometry and that would kill the A380neo just like 77W killed A380ceo. There was no workaround for some of the poor design choices made for A380 and for the relatively small market it was positioned into. It was always vulnerable from below, now the last one ever has left TLS.

FGITD wrote:
The engine would be shipped separate from the fan blades. Brings down to a much more manageable size, but does mean it takes a bit longer to do a swap since you have to disassemble/reassemble more of the entire engine.

A ge90 with the mounting stand for example fits on a 20ft Pallet that can go into most cargo aircraft. The transport rack for the fan blade assembly can fit on a standard pmc pallet.

It gets more complicated when you have to replace the cowling etc.

Yeah, or when the engine change has to happen in an undeveloped location such as Iqaluit in northern Canada. Then an AN-124 comes in handy:

Image
Ref: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/u ... oeing.html

FGITD wrote:
My apologies, I’ll refrain from sharing my professional experiences on this forum in the future.

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ILNFlyer
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:11 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
From the article:
"The engine will be suitable for both larger aircraft and the single aisle planes used for short-haul flights."

Single aisle aircraft with the worlds largest jet engine?


Well yeah. Kind is like monster trucks, where modders take a 12-year-olds drawing of a truck and bring it to life; the world needs a plane with larger diameter engines than fuselage.


Perfect for the DC-9. :stirthepot:
 
Vladex
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
Vladex wrote:
This was always meant for A380 NEO but apparently it was not meant to be.

A380 was a square peg forced into a round hole. As noted the same engines can go onto A350 with a bit of careful work on geometry and that would kill the A380neo just like 77W killed A380ceo. There was no workaround for some of the poor design choices made for A380 and for the relatively small market it was positioned into. It was always vulnerable from below, now the last one ever has left TLS.



I am not sure it can go on A350 and at least we agree that it can't fit on 787. A350 has ground clearance for up to 140" engines but A380 has clearance for up to 180" so not at all the same. 777 is dying or is already dead. It had only 123 deliveries in 4 years since the beginning of 2017 and the future looks just as bleak. A380 was killed by risk averse airlines and then by risk averse new team at Airbus. It was designed for another time with a new stretch and fitting engines like this Ultrafan.
 
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william
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:26 pm

keesje wrote:
Engine BPR is determined by the core engine too. If that is e.g. slightly narrower than the XWB, that could improve BPR. I think Airbus foresees a A350-1000 stretch over time. That or 777X could be launching customers for a bigger RR engine. https://www.flightglobal.com/systems-an ... 31.article There is upside potential when the market recovers and new A380 are no longer for sale.


Keejse, where have you been? Nice to see you posting again.
Last edited by william on Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mxaxai
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:28 pm

Vladex wrote:
I am not sure it can go on A350 and at least we agree that it can't fit on 787. A350 has ground clearance for up to 140" engines but A380 has clearance for up to 180" so not at all the same. 777 is dying or is already dead. It had only 123 deliveries in 4 years since the beginning of 2017 and the future looks just as bleak. A380 was killed by risk averse airlines and then by risk averse new team at Airbus. It was designed for another time with a new stretch and fitting engines like this Ultrafan.

The engine is designed to be scalable from narrowbodies to the largest (current) widebodies. The demonstrator is aimed at an A350 (or 777) application but if Boeing asked for a new 787 engine, RR could deliver.
Ultrafan is designed to be a family of related engines similar to the T1000 / T7000 / TXWB, except with more flexibility at the top and bottom end.
 
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william
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm

The only Boeing product this could go on is the 787 or NMA. The 777X is locked in with GE. Then again, GE and PW know how to read PR documents too, and will have a competitive response.

How much longer can one stretch the A350-1000? As Keejse stated, with the A380 gone, the VLA market is now the domain of the 777X and A350-1000. An A350NEO will be a compelling product if the specs on this engine pans out.
Last edited by william on Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Misterven1
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:36 pm

I assume this engine specially developed by RR for Airbus A350 and Boeing 777X?
 
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william
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:40 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Vladex wrote:
I am not sure it can go on A350 and at least we agree that it can't fit on 787. A350 has ground clearance for up to 140" engines but A380 has clearance for up to 180" so not at all the same. 777 is dying or is already dead. It had only 123 deliveries in 4 years since the beginning of 2017 and the future looks just as bleak. A380 was killed by risk averse airlines and then by risk averse new team at Airbus. It was designed for another time with a new stretch and fitting engines like this Ultrafan.

The engine is designed to be scalable from narrowbodies to the largest (current) widebodies. The demonstrator is aimed at an A350 (or 777) application but if Boeing asked for a new 787 engine, RR could deliver.
Ultrafan is designed to be a family of related engines similar to the T1000 / T7000 / TXWB, except with more flexibility at the top and bottom end.


Safran/GE, PW and RR in the narrowbody market, this will be interesting.
 
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Polot
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:15 pm

Vladex wrote:
This was always meant for A380 NEO but apparently it was not meant to be. No , it doesn't fit 787 and just barely A350 but only 19" ground clearance .. An engine like this could make an electric wide body finally a possibility by 2030.

The engine at this particular size was never intended for an A380neo application. The A380 does not need ~85k+ Lbf of thrust for each engine. An A380neo would use the same engines that RR would throw on a 787 (or A330neo2)
 
RJMAZ
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:31 pm

UA748i wrote:
Im curious as to what capabilities this will give the A350 going forward.

Both A350 models will end up highly capable just like the A340-500 and 777LR. Airlines will then move towards lighter frames with the next replacement cycle once again as they do not need such extreme capability.

I predict that many airlines will purchase the 787-10NEO to replace their current A350-900 aircraft in 10 years time.
 
Baldr
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:05 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
UA748i wrote:
Im curious as to what capabilities this will give the A350 going forward.

Both A350 models will end up highly capable just like the A340-500 and 777LR. Airlines will then move towards lighter frames with the next replacement cycle once again as they do not need such extreme capability.

I predict that many airlines will purchase the 787-10NEO to replace their current A350-900 aircraft in 10 years time.


I would predict that in 10 years, the A350-900 will likely be superceded by a 280 metric tonne MTOW, 11-frame stretched, UltraFan-powered A350-800XXL-neo which would have the same length as the current A350-1000 -- and that the A350-1000 will likely be superceded by a 319 MTOW, 9-frame stretched, UltraFan-powered A350-2000neo.

The A350-900neo and the A350-1000neo would indeed become niche aircraft. However, the outcome with respect to replacement aircraft for the A350-900 would very likely be quite different than what you seem to believe might happen.

I would also predict that in 10 years, Airbus will replace the A330 with a new family of aircraft derived from the A350 (i.e. A360X) and attack the 787 from "below" with better optimised airframes than a 787-8NG and a 787-9NG (i.e. both airframes being "overbuilt" and too heavy structure -- i.e too much wing volume, MLG optimised for MTOW of 787-10NG etc.)

This notional A360X would have the same fuselage as the A350, but would have a slightly smaller wing (by area; not by span) -- i.e. some 10 percent less than the 370 m2 wing area of the A330 wing. It would be optimised around a 60,000 lbf to 65,000 lbf thrust UltraFan engine and a significantly lower MTOW than the 787 family. The largest model would have the same capacity as the 787-9/A330-900neo, while the smaller model would have the same capacity as the 787-8/A330-800neo
 
RJMAZ
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:31 am

Baldr wrote:
I would predict that in 10 years, the A350-900 will likely be superceded by a 280 metric tonne MTOW, 11-frame stretched, UltraFan-powered A350-800XXL-neo which would have the same length as the current A350-1000 -- and that the A350-1000 will likely be superceded by a 319 MTOW, 9-frame stretched, UltraFan-powered A350-2000neo.

That is a big development cost to go with the new engines. A 280t A350-900 stretched to -1000 length would be good. The problem is Airbus would nearly be forced to produce these stretch models or they will lose their advantage.



Baldr wrote:
I would also predict that in 10 years, Airbus will replace the A330 with a new family of aircraft derived from the A350 (i.e. A360X) and attack the 787 from "below" with better optimised airframes than a 787-8NG and a 787-9NG (i.e. both airframes being "overbuilt" and too heavy structure -- i.e too much wing volume, MLG optimised for MTOW of 787-10NG etc.)

This notional A360X would have the same fuselage as the A350, but would have a slightly smaller wing (by area; not by span) -- i.e. some 10 percent less than the 370 m2 wing area of the A330 wing. It would be optimised around a 60,000 lbf to 65,000 lbf thrust UltraFan engine and a significantly lower MTOW than the 787 family. The largest model would have the same capacity as the 787-9/A330-900neo, while the smaller model would have the same capacity as the 787-8/A330-800neo

I actually think Airbus will use the A330 fuselage cross section for this future middle model. The A330-800 does not sell because it has too much range but the size itself is perfect. I expect Airbus to produce a lightweight high AR 52m span carbon wing for the A330 with an A300 sized landing gear for a MTOW under 200t. Efficiency would gain 10% just from being optimised lighter. The A330-800 fuselage length would then be in the perfect range sweet spot like the original A330-200. The longer fuselage length would then have a range around 5000nm and would be the great CASM regional aircraft.

A360 is a fitting name as they went larger and more capable with the A300 to A330. So they are doing a 180 by going less capable and then moving forward from that point.
 
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reidar76
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:34 pm

I can't understand why anyone would think the 140" ultrafan isn't for the A350?

Airbus and RR signed an collaboration agreement in April 2018 for integration and testing of the ultrafan. This is the largest architectural shift for RR since the 1960s, so Airbus wont launch the A350neo before they know that RR can deliver, when they can deliver, and at which performance and efficiency level.

The ultrafan is slightly delayed due to the coronavirus, and Airbus and RR just extended the Trent XWB exclusivity to 2030, in order to adjust the timeline.

I find it highly likely Airbus is hard at work preparing the A350 for this large engine, and optimising all parts of the aircraft and engine integration.

For those that worry how an engine with a 140" fan diameter is going to be transported from the factory in Dahlewitz, Germany to Toulouse, France, I only have to say Beluga. One Beluga can transport many engines to one go, arriving in Toulouse a couple of hours later.
 
Vladex
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:08 pm

Polot wrote:
Vladex wrote:
This was always meant for A380 NEO but apparently it was not meant to be. No , it doesn't fit 787 and just barely A350 but only 19" ground clearance .. An engine like this could make an electric wide body finally a possibility by 2030.

The engine at this particular size was never intended for an A380neo application. The A380 does not need ~85k+ Lbf of thrust for each engine. An A380neo would use the same engines that RR would throw on a 787 (or A330neo2)


I think the next A380 would have been full 80m length A380-900 which would require such thrust, just a projection on my part.
 
CowAnon
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:22 pm

william wrote:
Is the variable pitch reverse still off the table for now?

Correct, the dropping was reported a couple of years ago: viewtopic.php?t=1415467#p21091165

fanofjets wrote:
The Airbus A340 was originally to be powered by an engine called the SuperFan. With the UltraFan, we have come a long way since then!

In the 1980s, Rolls-Royce also proposed an engine called the ContraFan, which would've had direct-drive, ducted contra-rotating fans aft of the engine core. The ContraFan was to have a bypass ratio of 15-16 and a diameter of over 14 feet (168 inches). It also would've used its variable-pitch blades for thrust reversers.

https://archive.org/details/forbes143ap ... 9/mode/1up (Forbes, 5/29/89)
https://archive.org/details/forbes143ap ... 3/mode/1up

I wonder why RR didn't continue with this engine, since its gearless architecture probably would've been easier to develop. Here's a picture of the ContraFan:

https://books.google.com/books?id=KxhpECCOC4YC&pg=PA54 (New Scientist, 5/7/87)
 
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Polot
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:48 pm

Vladex wrote:
Polot wrote:
Vladex wrote:
This was always meant for A380 NEO but apparently it was not meant to be. No , it doesn't fit 787 and just barely A350 but only 19" ground clearance .. An engine like this could make an electric wide body finally a possibility by 2030.

The engine at this particular size was never intended for an A380neo application. The A380 does not need ~85k+ Lbf of thrust for each engine. An A380neo would use the same engines that RR would throw on a 787 (or A330neo2)


I think the next A380 would have been full 80m length A380-900 which would require such thrust, just a projection on my part.

Unlikely. Because of the much better fuel economy a stretched A380neo would never have needed the MTOW originally envisioned. The A380 was completely overbuilt with the expectation that it would be quickly stretched with the same early 2000s engine tech and fuel burn.

As I said this particular engine was never developed with the A380 in mind. RR refused to commit to a A380neo and decided for their next major project to make a A350/777 suitable engine as the lead engine. That should provide enough insight as to what RR leadership thought about the A380’s future commercial prospects.
 
Marcus
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:57 pm

Where can I find a side by side comparison for size between this and other similar engines?
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LAX772LR
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It doesn't seem wise when RR claims they don't have much cash around.

It also isn't wise to stop developing new products.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Exactly.

If you want to see what happens when a company stops innovating in order to preserve cash, then look to McDonnell-Douglas. How well did that work out?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:41 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It doesn't seem wise when RR claims they don't have much cash around.

It also isn't wise to stop developing new products.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Exactly.

If you want to see what happens when a company stops innovating in order to preserve cash, then look to McDonnell-Douglas. How well did that work out?


What is this engine supposed to go on? Neither Boeing or Airbus has even hinted about needing such an engine. A product that no one asked for isn't good business either. They'd be much better off developing a new engine for the NSA. As it stands right now it wouldn't do Boeing or Airbus any good to design a new narrowbody as current engine technology would not do much to shift the economics.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:52 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
What is this engine supposed to go on?

Have you not read the last 80 posts or so? Should give you a likely (albeit non-official) idea.



TTailedTiger wrote:
Neither Boeing or Airbus has even hinted about needing such an engine.

I believe the word "publicly" is missing from that statement.



TTailedTiger wrote:
A product that no one asked for

Again, why are you so seemingly sure that that's a factual statement?

I mean the fact that they'd temporarily shelved development on this application, only to quickly pick it up again, should be something of a first clue that it may not be as accurate as professed.....
Last edited by LAX772LR on Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Revelation
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:54 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
What is this engine supposed to go on? Neither Boeing or Airbus has even hinted about needing such an engine. A product that no one asked for isn't good business either. They'd be much better off developing a new engine for the NSA. As it stands right now it wouldn't do Boeing or Airbus any good to design a new narrowbody as current engine technology would not do much to shift the economics.

We really don't know what Boeing or Airbus are asking for, do we?
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Vladex
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pm

Polot wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Polot wrote:
The engine at this particular size was never intended for an A380neo application. The A380 does not need ~85k+ Lbf of thrust for each engine. An A380neo would use the same engines that RR would throw on a 787 (or A330neo2)


I think the next A380 would have been full 80m length A380-900 which would require such thrust, just a projection on my part.

Unlikely. Because of the much better fuel economy a stretched A380neo would never have needed the MTOW originally envisioned. The A380 was completely overbuilt with the expectation that it would be quickly stretched with the same early 2000s engine tech and fuel burn.

As I said this particular engine was never developed with the A380 in mind. RR refused to commit to a A380neo and decided for their next major project to make a A350/777 suitable engine as the lead engine. That should provide enough insight as to what RR leadership thought about the A380’s future commercial prospects.


Better fuel economy is not proportionally related to the thrust requirements., correct me if I am wrong . Also whenever I saw A380 climb which is a lot of times, I always thought that it needed more thrust, correct me if I am wrong . I am not sure if that was design or an air control requirement but it looked slow and plodding to take off so more thrust would be welcome .
 
Douglas7Seas
Posts: 124
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pm

Good luck to Rolls Royce.
Be different; Be nice.
 
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Polot
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:16 pm

Vladex wrote:
Polot wrote:
Vladex wrote:

I think the next A380 would have been full 80m length A380-900 which would require such thrust, just a projection on my part.

Unlikely. Because of the much better fuel economy a stretched A380neo would never have needed the MTOW originally envisioned. The A380 was completely overbuilt with the expectation that it would be quickly stretched with the same early 2000s engine tech and fuel burn.

As I said this particular engine was never developed with the A380 in mind. RR refused to commit to a A380neo and decided for their next major project to make a A350/777 suitable engine as the lead engine. That should provide enough insight as to what RR leadership thought about the A380’s future commercial prospects.


Better fuel economy is not proportionally related to the thrust requirements., correct me if I am wrong . Also whenever I saw A380 climb which is a lot of times, I always thought that it needed more thrust, correct me if I am wrong . I am not sure if that was design or an air control requirement but it looked slow and plodding to take off so more thrust would be welcome .

Broadly speaking, wing design and max weight determine thrust requirements. The A380 has excellent take off performance (thanks to its huge oversized wing), it doesn’t need more thrust. You were probably looking at a derated take off.

Better fuel economy means you can travel further with less fuel (less weight).
 
Vladex
Posts: 531
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:22 pm

Current A350 with 118" RR Trent XWB. I have a hard time imagining 140" RR Ultrafan fitting in, even if it's pushed upwards and forward.
Image
Image

For reference , the same 118" Trent XWB on A380 makes it non issue.
Image
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
What is this engine supposed to go on? Neither Boeing or Airbus has even hinted about needing such an engine. A product that no one asked for isn't good business either. They'd be much better off developing a new engine for the NSA. As it stands right now it wouldn't do Boeing or Airbus any good to design a new narrowbody as current engine technology would not do much to shift the economics.

We really don't know what Boeing or Airbus are asking for, do we?


Well the A380 is out of production and the 777X isn't exactly selling off the shelf. Boeing and Airbus would be out of their minds to build a new plane in the VLA category. So again, what's the engine going on?
 
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Polot
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:42 pm

Vladex wrote:
Current A350 with 118" RR Trent XWB. I have a hard time imagining 140" RR Ultrafan fitting in, even if it's pushed upwards and forward.
Image
Image

For reference , the same 118" Trent XWB on A380 makes it non issue.
Image

That is only 22 more inches- not all 22 inches have to fit below the lower edge of the current engine. Pushing the engine forward and up will give it plenty of room. The reengined aircraft will have less ground clearance than the current A350 thought.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:06 pm

Vladex wrote:
Current A350 with 118" RR Trent XWB. I have a hard time imagining 140" RR Ultrafan fitting in, even if it's pushed upwards and forward.

Meh. Looks mean nothing.

Who would've looked at a 737-100 and immediately thought "oh yeah, that design can totally handle another 29inches in fan diameter".... but yet, here we are.

If a 737Jurassic could take 29 more inches, despite all of Boeing's ensuing foibles; it won't be much of a leap for Airbus to get 22inches under an A350.



TTailedTiger wrote:
Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
What is this engine supposed to go on? Neither Boeing or Airbus has even hinted about needing such an engine. A product that no one asked for isn't good business either. They'd be much better off developing a new engine for the NSA. As it stands right now it wouldn't do Boeing or Airbus any good to design a new narrowbody as current engine technology would not do much to shift the economics.

We really don't know what Boeing or Airbus are asking for, do we?


Well the A380 is out of production and the 777X isn't exactly selling off the shelf. Boeing and Airbus would be out of their minds to build a new plane in the VLA category. So again, what's the engine going on?

The answer hasn't changed since the first time you asked. Scroll up.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Vladex
Posts: 531
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:26 am

Polot wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Polot wrote:
Unlikely. Because of the much better fuel economy a stretched A380neo would never have needed the MTOW originally envisioned. The A380 was completely overbuilt with the expectation that it would be quickly stretched with the same early 2000s engine tech and fuel burn.

As I said this particular engine was never developed with the A380 in mind. RR refused to commit to a A380neo and decided for their next major project to make a A350/777 suitable engine as the lead engine. That should provide enough insight as to what RR leadership thought about the A380’s future commercial prospects.


Better fuel economy is not proportionally related to the thrust requirements., correct me if I am wrong . Also whenever I saw A380 climb which is a lot of times, I always thought that it needed more thrust, correct me if I am wrong . I am not sure if that was design or an air control requirement but it looked slow and plodding to take off so more thrust would be welcome .

Broadly speaking, wing design and max weight determine thrust requirements. The A380 has excellent take off performance (thanks to its huge oversized wing), it doesn’t need more thrust. You were probably looking at a derated take off.

Better fuel economy means you can travel further with less fuel (less weight).


I live on the flight path of YYZ so sometimes I catch EK A380 on the weekends and it's always the lowest and the most plodding takeoff out of all of them. I am not complaining , it's a sight to behold and allows for better viewing. Is it because it's full of fuel and people (it's always sold out)? Is it because of wind vortex and noise levels including winds? is it because of fuel economy? There is definitely some underlying noise with A380 that is awesome and frightening at the same time.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:27 am

Vladex wrote:
Is it because it's full of fuel and people (it's always sold out)? Is it because of wind vortex and noise levels including winds? is it because of fuel economy? There is definitely some underlying noise with A380 that is awesome and frightening at the same time.

A fully laden A380 would have absolutely no problem getting out of YYZ to DXB with shining performance.... if asked to do so.

But with 3300m+ of available runway, at 173m elevation--- why ask it to?

Wear&tear on the engines is your primary "concern," if we're to call it that; there can be considerations for noise, but that depends on the specific situation, at spending more time at low altitude can actually increase noise for some communities. Just depends.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
sutrakhk
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:32 am

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:47 am

Maybe a twin jet A380?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:04 am

sutrakhk wrote:
Maybe a twin jet A380?

The engine is designed for variants up to 100,000 lbs of thrust. That's comparable to the Trent XWB-97, the GE-9X and the GE-90. These are all found on regular large widebodies, the A350-1000, the 777-9 and 777-300ER.

If you wanted to develop a twin A380 variant, you'd need more than 150,000 lbs of thrust, perhaps even 200,000 lbs; far beyond this or any other existing jet engine.
 
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JerseyFlyer
Posts: 1627
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 7:24 pm

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:26 am

RR are clearly envisaging a range of sizes for this technology. For any airframe there will be a trade-off between fan diameter and airframe size, as we saw with the different LEAP versions for the NEO and MAX.

I am sure Airbus and RR are capable of optimising these parameters for applications ranging from A350 downwards.
 
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Polot
Posts: 11543
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:45 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
RR are clearly envisaging a range of sizes for this technology. For any airframe there will be a trade-off between fan diameter and airframe size, as we saw with the different LEAP versions for the NEO and MAX.

Unlike the LEAP on the NEO vs Max there will also be broadly different thrust ratings though, so it’s more complicated than smaller less efficient fan but lighter engine. A 787/A330 optimized engine may perform identical or better than the A350/777 optimized engine.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 948
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:58 am

Probably a proof of concept engine for testing purposes, before they scale down to the appropriate sizes. As it stands, the earliest probable application for this engine is the Boeing NMA if it gets launched.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:58 pm

FGITD wrote:
My apologies, I’ll refrain from sharing my professional experiences on this forum in the future.

Why? Because you didn't like one, pretty logical, reply?

Isn't "Maybe I should have been more clear..." a better option instead of "I quit"?
 
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Revelation
Posts: 25797
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:24 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
So again, what's the engine going on?

Absolutely nothing but a ground test stand.

The engine has a lot of technologies new to RR: CRFP fan blades, gear, new workload distribution in the core, etc.

As we saw with PW's GTF, all these new things can have some teething problems once put together.

The tech has been tested individually, this is the first time it's all being tested together.

Makes sense to test the high end of the product line, so that's what it is sized for.

It makes more sense if you stop thinking of it as a product and start thinking of it as a engineering testbed.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: RR begins building worlds largest jet engine

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:10 pm

CowAnon wrote:
william wrote:
Is the variable pitch reverse still off the table for now?

Correct, the dropping was reported a couple of years ago: viewtopic.php?t=1415467#p21091165

fanofjets wrote:
The Airbus A340 was originally to be powered by an engine called the SuperFan. With the UltraFan, we have come a long way since then!

In the 1980s, Rolls-Royce also proposed an engine called the ContraFan, which would've had direct-drive, ducted contra-rotating fans aft of the engine core. The ContraFan was to have a bypass ratio of 15-16 and a diameter of over 14 feet (168 inches). It also would've used its variable-pitch blades for thrust reversers.

https://archive.org/details/forbes143ap ... 9/mode/1up (Forbes, 5/29/89)
https://archive.org/details/forbes143ap ... 3/mode/1up

I wonder why RR didn't continue with this engine, since its gearless architecture probably would've been easier to develop. Here's a picture of the ContraFan:

https://books.google.com/books?id=KxhpECCOC4YC&pg=PA54 (New Scientist, 5/7/87)


Very cool thanks for the pic. I wonder what made this engine unworkable as well.

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