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asuflyer
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Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:24 pm

A DL 757 N651DL operating flight DL 8944 from SLC to MEM returned to SLC with damage to engine number 1 after a reported birdstrike. The aircraft was taking the Utah Jazz team to MEM and is one of the 757's in DL's 75C sports charter configuration.

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/brian_schnee/status ... 7249873923
https://twitter.com/SeanMoodyPhoto/stat ... 3677535235
 
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TheZ
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:47 pm

Yikes! That's some serious damage to the engine there. Glad they had a safe landing.
If you have to say "pun intended," it's not a good enough pun.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:00 am

This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)

I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed that Flightaware's Twitter feed initially described this as a "problem with the left engine", and then pointed out that it was a PW engine and that PW engines had had issues lately. So crazily wrong in ten thousand ways. They should be ashamed.
 
C525C
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:52 am

wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:16 am

C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


Delta....We’re Learning to Fly....and It Shows!
My other car is an A320-200
 
joeycapps
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:29 am

C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


I don't think it's fair to single out a US airline with a history as long as DL's, when in all fairness, the original quote included "...any US major...". I'm no DL fanboy (I don't subscribe to any single one 'club' on here) but I will say, all in all, we've seen pilots at their finest here in the US, especially in recent history... Across all airlines, as the op stated.
 
Antarius
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:32 am

C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


It's still far far far safer to fly commerical. You've come up with a list of 10 things for an airline that flies thousands of flights a day.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
UA735WL
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:52 am

wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)

I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed that Flightaware's Twitter feed initially described this as a "problem with the left engine", and then pointed out that it was a PW engine and that PW engines had had issues lately. So crazily wrong in ten thousand ways. They should be ashamed.


I seem to recall an amazing display of airmanship with a similar instance at YIP when the captain of a charter operator's MD-80 tried to rotate and found his elevators (or was it the stabilizer) jammed. I suppose DL does have deeper pockets than your average charter operator but otherwise I don't think any pilot at the mainline level is going to be unable to handle an event like this.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
SESGDL
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:09 am

C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy
 
Antarius
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:19 am

UA735WL wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)

I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed that Flightaware's Twitter feed initially described this as a "problem with the left engine", and then pointed out that it was a PW engine and that PW engines had had issues lately. So crazily wrong in ten thousand ways. They should be ashamed.


I seem to recall an amazing display of airmanship with a similar instance at YIP when the captain of a charter operator's MD-80 tried to rotate and found his elevators (or was it the stabilizer) jammed. I suppose DL does have deeper pockets than your average charter operator but otherwise I don't think any pilot at the mainline level is going to be unable to handle an event like this.


The statistics are very clear. Commerical aviation is safer than charters and GA.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
wjcandee
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:50 am

UA735WL wrote:
I seem to recall an amazing display of airmanship with a similar instance at YIP when the captain of a charter operator's MD-80 tried to rotate and found his elevators (or was it the stabilizer) jammed.


CPT Mark Radloff, and we should say his name because he took a lot of crap in the media for a long time for rejecting past V1, did absolutely the right thing that day. Thankfully, the NTSB went out of their way to praise him in their report and in the press release accompanying it, so he was thoroughly-vindicated.

Scary, though, that they were thisclose to that having been a highly-fatal accident. Radloff had a kajillion hours in DC9s and was the captain of the flight, and may have had a senior position in the company, but he was being "trained" on the MD80 and so was flying with a younger training captain with fewer hours than he. The training captain was technically the PIC of the flight, but company policy and the pilots' preflight briefing was that it was the Captain's decision whether to reject, and so it was Radloff's. With a jillion DC9 hours, he knew instantly when he pulled the yoke back that the plane's response wasn't normal, but he pulled the yoke even further, later telling NTSB that it "felt like there was a stack of bricks on the nose". All this within just seconds. When it didn't respond, he didn't hesitate and rejected the takeoff because he believed the aircraft to be incapable of flight. Not only were they past V1, they were very-far past V1 because they were delaying rotation for a higher takeoff speed due to potential windshear. NTSB said if he had waited 2-3 seconds, the outcome would have been very-different.

Captain Radloff also executed the reject so fast that he had the autothrottles disconnected and the thing going into reverse thrust before the PIC beside him could react to Radloff having said "Abort." That reaction was telling. The guy started to reach for the controls, saying, "&$^&#! Not above V1! Don't reject above V1 like that!" but he told NTSB he didn't grab the controls because he realized that Radloff already had it going into reverse and autothrottle disconnected. The NTSB generously credited him with "following the company SOP and the preflight briefing" that it was the captain's decision to abort, and with jumping on the brakes and supporting the captain's actions. Between the lines, it's pretty-apparent that the training captain very well might not have rejected, or at least not that fast, if he were the PF, and might have grabbed the controls if it wasn't already too late to do so. And that would have been fatal. So in the 50/50 between which pilot was flying the leg, the "they lived" pilot was.

Captain Radloff made a split-second abort decision, knowing that he was not going to be able to stop on the runway and that he was going to damage the aircraft, because he had the confidence to act instantly upon his determination that the aircraft could not fly.

The aircraft was in fact absolutely-incapable of flight, due to a defect that the crew could not have discovered in preflight (and the CVR reveals that their preflight activities were highly-professional and safety-and-regulations oriented), so it is really an extraordinarily-rare accident sequence, something that NTSB strongly-emphasized. No question that that particular incident was a demonstration of superior airmanship by someone at a charter carrier, and superior airpeople clearly exist there. But the majors do do an excellent job of training, AQP, and on and on, and it makes a difference, on average, in their safety. That was all I meant to say.

 
C525C
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:56 am

Antarius wrote:
The statistics are very clear. Commerical aviation is safer than charters and GA.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
Before we go on, can you please define "Commercial aviation", and use the term properly going forward? Thanks.

My response to wjcandee, in particular: " in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has." was purely anecdotal. If you cast a pilot group into that echelon, they should, theoretically, not be making the mistakes that were made. I'm not talking stats and data, I'm talking about people "sleeping better at night" due to perception. I can give passes on two of the incidents I listed (landing long at LGA and almost landing on a taxiway, but all ten I listed were purposely non-fatal, made the news, and were pilot error. Being human, and all, nobody is immune to it.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:57 am

BTW, I just went to reread about the accident mentioned above, and I ran across a very-nice Avweb article that gives a lot more detail but says some of the same nice things that NTSB did, with some discussion from some very-experienced pilots.

So if you're interested, here it is: https://www.avweb.com/recent-updates/bu ... re-heroes/
 
wjcandee
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:08 am

C525C wrote:
My response to wjcandee, in particular: " in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has." was purely anecdotal. If you cast a pilot group into that echelon, they should, theoretically, not be making the mistakes that were made. [...] Being human, and all, nobody is immune to it.


No dispute: humans make mistakes. As do machines. Indeed, all systems have error modes.

However, your argument conflates "perfect" with "better" and/or "safer". Nobody said that the DL program was perfect -- I said that DL (and US major carriers generally) are safer than the alternative. And that's just true. Maybe it's the hiring. Maybe it's the training. Maybe it's the SOP, the AQP, the regulatory environment. Maybe it's all of the above. And I don't see a need to split hairs about it.

And it's not a USA vs non-USA thing: the horrendous accident sequence involving a US Part 121 carrier in Houston is proof of failures in myriad places along the way -- at the carrier, at previous employers, perhaps in societal matters -- that put those two pilots in that cockpit together that day. Thank goodness they weren't flying a military 767 passenger charter, and it was pure happenstance that they weren't, given their carrier's protocols.

I think we're looking at this from different perspectives, and it's probably not worth debating, but that's a clarification of my thinking.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:14 am

SESGDL wrote:
C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy


I believe the problem came from insinuating this situation was beyond a charter pilot's ability.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:36 am

C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...

see there was a time when this trolling horse shit was deleted and crap ass posters were banned. Now the mods sit around with a thumb up there ass either not being smart enough to see how shitty this place is or the like 2 that are old school don't understand why this place became so shitty.

I just hope I'm alive to see this place finally crash an burn. Garbage web site from what it use to be and I really wish he would have never sold it.

SESGDL wrote:
C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy

exactly

TTailedTiger wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
C525C wrote:
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy


I believe the problem came from insinuating this situation was beyond a charter pilot's ability.


speaking of trolls.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:57 am

deltal1011man wrote:
C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...

see there was a time when this trolling horse shit was deleted and crap ass posters were banned. Now the mods sit around with a thumb up there ass either not being smart enough to see how shitty this place is or the like 2 that are old school don't understand why this place became so shitty.

I just hope I'm alive to see this place finally crash an burn. Garbage web site from what it use to be and I really wish he would have never sold it.

SESGDL wrote:
C525C wrote:
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy

exactly

TTailedTiger wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy


I believe the problem came from insinuating this situation was beyond a charter pilot's ability.


speaking of trolls.


Seconded. This'll get deleted too, but they deleted my post saying that WN would be in trouble if God forbid something happens to the MAX, and they never explained to me why.

They consolidate threads that have no reason to be consolidated, and yet, other trolls still post here.

This is a huge reason why contributors are leaving (HKcanada, Enilria etc). What a fall for this site.
 
D L X
Posts: 12719
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:57 am

deltal1011man wrote:
C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...

see there was a time when this trolling horse shit was deleted and crap ass posters were banned. Now the mods sit around with a thumb up there ass either not being smart enough to see how shitty this place is or the like 2 that are old school don't understand why this place became so shitty.

I just hope I'm alive to see this place finally crash an burn. Garbage web site from what it use to be and I really wish he would have never sold it.

SESGDL wrote:
C525C wrote:
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy

exactly

TTailedTiger wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

These are the kinds of posts that are a sincere indication of how much the quality of average posts on this site have declined.

DL, just like all the other major US carriers has an absolutely incredible safety record.

Jeremy


I believe the problem came from insinuating this situation was beyond a charter pilot's ability.


speaking of trolls.

I fail to see the trolling here. One poster says this is proof flying DL is safer. The poster you call a troll points out that they are susceptible to mistakes too, and presented facts.

Great airmanship here, no doubt. Everybody lived. But seriously, it’s not a good look to disparage the sports charter outfits that aren’t DL. The Michigan Bball charter example listed above is an illustrative data point, but there are thousands of sports charters each year to pull data from.

(Incidentally, the Michigan basketball team was rescued by Delta after the YIP crash. They played their game the next day on schedule, but they had to play in their practice “jerseys” since their equipment was stuck in the belly of the MD 80.)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:02 pm

C525C wrote:
overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping...


Are you thinking of the 2009 NW A320 incident where they overflew MSP because they were absorbed in use of the new bidding software?

https://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2009/ ... planation/
 
dafunk10
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:02 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:51 pm

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/jazz/2021 ... ight-were/

sounds like it was a scary situation for the team....their best player (Mitchell) ended up not making the trip on the replacement plane...sounds like he was shaken up and already had a fear of flying
 
Antarius
Posts: 3438
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:30 pm

C525C wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The statistics are very clear. Commerical aviation is safer than charters and GA.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
Before we go on, can you please define "Commercial aviation", and use the term properly going forward? Thanks.

My response to wjcandee, in particular: " in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has." was purely anecdotal. If you cast a pilot group into that echelon, they should, theoretically, not be making the mistakes that were made. I'm not talking stats and data, I'm talking about people "sleeping better at night" due to perception. I can give passes on two of the incidents I listed (landing long at LGA and almost landing on a taxiway, but all ten I listed were purposely non-fatal, made the news, and were pilot error. Being human, and all, nobody is immune to it.


You need someone to define commercial aviation? Seriously?
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:50 pm

D L X wrote:
One poster says this is proof flying DL is safer.


I don't see that statement. His statement was that everyone sleeps a little better. And that's true. DL pilots are, on average, probably better equipped to handle an inflight emergency than WQ or SY pilots. That doesn't mean that the outcome will be good every time for DL or bad every time for other operators.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
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Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:49 pm

Antarius wrote:
C525C wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The statistics are very clear. Commerical aviation is safer than charters and GA.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
Before we go on, can you please define "Commercial aviation", and use the term properly going forward? Thanks.

My response to wjcandee, in particular: " in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has." was purely anecdotal. If you cast a pilot group into that echelon, they should, theoretically, not be making the mistakes that were made. I'm not talking stats and data, I'm talking about people "sleeping better at night" due to perception. I can give passes on two of the incidents I listed (landing long at LGA and almost landing on a taxiway, but all ten I listed were purposely non-fatal, made the news, and were pilot error. Being human, and all, nobody is immune to it.


You need someone to define commercial aviation? Seriously?


I think the issue is that charters are a form of commercial aviation, but here the statement was made as if they aren’t. Part 121 (airline) is commercial and the safest. Followed by part 135 (charter) which is commercial and statistically less safe (but still safe). Followed by part 91 (GA) which can be commercial, but usually not commercial, and is the least safe (but still safe).
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 pm

Great job getting the plane back down safely. Well done!
 
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SuseJ772
Posts: 1035
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:09 pm

C525C wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes the NBA teams' insurers happy they have their insured players flying on a DL CMI operation. Sure, in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has. (Same would go for any US major; we have seen amazing airmanship from pilots at WN, AA, UA recently when the stuff got thick.)
That training and experience were on full display when they forgot to set the flaps at DFW in '88, landed short at LGA, landed long at LGA, overflies their destination by 250 miles because they were sleeping, landed on a taxiway at ATL, almost landed on a taxiway at ATL, landed at the wrong airport in South Dakota, crossed a runway at JFK without permission, dumps fuel over school kids, reports for duty at MSP drunk, etc...


Statistically speaking C525C, this is disingenuous. Wjcandee’s point is valid and they show in insurance rates per mile flown in part 121 vs 135.

It doesn’t mean every 121 pilot is better than every 135 pilot. It just means there is value in the further layer of training at a statistical level.

Just like me, a part 91 pilot. I am not offended by the idea that my wife is statistically safer flying with the Delta guys and gals than me. It doesn’t mean I am not safe. It doesn’t mean she shouldn’t fly with me. It just means that insurers believe she is safer flying DL than with me, and as such our insurance rates per passenger mile flown reflect that.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
slcguy
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:42 pm

How did this this thread get so off topic so quick? Went from a bird strike incident (significant) to a raging argument about charter vs commercial (anti-Delta) in just a few posts!
I agree A-net has gone down hill for sure.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3073
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:55 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
C525C wrote:
Before we go on, can you please define "Commercial aviation", and use the term properly going forward? Thanks.

My response to wjcandee, in particular: " in theory, any qualified pilot could handle this situation, but everyone sleeps a little better knowing the kind of training and experience a DL crew like this one has." was purely anecdotal. If you cast a pilot group into that echelon, they should, theoretically, not be making the mistakes that were made. I'm not talking stats and data, I'm talking about people "sleeping better at night" due to perception. I can give passes on two of the incidents I listed (landing long at LGA and almost landing on a taxiway, but all ten I listed were purposely non-fatal, made the news, and were pilot error. Being human, and all, nobody is immune to it.


You need someone to define commercial aviation? Seriously?


I think the issue is that charters are a form of commercial aviation, but here the statement was made as if they aren’t. Part 121 (airline) is commercial and the safest. Followed by part 135 (charter) which is commercial and statistically less safe (but still safe). Followed by part 91 (GA) which can be commercial, but usually not commercial, and is the least safe (but still safe).

Drifting far off-topic, but I came across an interesting link the other day. Discussion of how 91 actually works...
https://www.avweb.com/insider/part-91-a ... -dont-mix/
 
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SuseJ772
Posts: 1035
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:09 pm

kalvado wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

You need someone to define commercial aviation? Seriously?


I think the issue is that charters are a form of commercial aviation, but here the statement was made as if they aren’t. Part 121 (airline) is commercial and the safest. Followed by part 135 (charter) which is commercial and statistically less safe (but still safe). Followed by part 91 (GA) which can be commercial, but usually not commercial, and is the least safe (but still safe).

Drifting far off-topic, but I came across an interesting link the other day. Discussion of how 91 actually works...
https://www.avweb.com/insider/part-91-a ... -dont-mix/


I read that one too a few days ago. I mostly agree with it. I like Paul’s perspective on things.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1688
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:25 pm

777Mech wrote:
This is a huge reason why contributors are leaving (HKcanada, Enilria etc). What a fall for this site.


For those that may be interested, Enilria is over on Patreon now and putting out lots of good stuff.


https://www.patreon.com/Enilria
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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ADent
Posts: 1178
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: Delta 757 birdstrike at SLC

Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:50 pm

Sounds good, but I am too cheap to pay $120/year - even at $60 per year which is open again at the moment.

At $12 year maybe.

I support the original model here $25 one time.

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