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sfojvjets
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:00 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:27 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Honest question, is there actually a spike? Sure, from the US, but I imagine its just replaced a lot of Japanese (Asian generally) tourism that is virtually nil. I could see Maui as getting a spike though because it was pretty much mostly US anyways.

Yep, sorry, I should've specified US.


Gotcha, I've been curious if there is a total spike because certainly the US airlines have added so much capacity.

I think it depends on an island-to-island basis. For example, HNL probably has not surpassed pre-covid levels due to the high dependence on Japanese/intl visitors. OGG, KOA, and LIH, though, probably have benefitted the most from the US spike since there was little to no reliance on international visitors pre-covid. It would be interesting to see if any of the last three are above pre-covid levels... OGG was definitely bustling as I've never seen it before. There were insanely long lines (and poorly equipped airport infrastructure to handle them) and all the inbound widebodies (and some larger narrowbodies too I guess?) were waiting for gates. My UA 752 waited on the apron about 20 minutes for a 772 to push back, and I saw a Hawaiian 332 from SEA that had to wait at least 40 minutes for an opening. Crowds everywhere. I may be wrong, but I don't remember OGG being like this at all pre-covid.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 510
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:00 pm

sfojvjets wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
It has everything to do with UA's network. Some posters think that demand to HI has a celling created by a rental car shortage. As one of the biggest carriers between the U.S. mainland and HI the shor5 term impact on UA's network could be significant. If you don't think this will effect UA I would be interested to hear why. You may be right.

As someone who is in Maui as I'm typing this, I can assure you that demand to HI definitely does not have a ceiling. Rental cars simply aren't that important. If you take away the rental car, you get a vacation that is simply more resort-oriented... and that isn't a turn-off for most people. When the beach is steps away, the pool is down 5 floors, the gym is around the corner, and there are food options in all sections of the hotel, rental cars do not become important. At the very least, people may be inconvenienced during their vacation, but as long as the tour operators are around, it is not at all a deterrent for people to visit, as evidenced by the spike in visitors to the islands.

Sure there are people who will still be happy to go to HI without a car, but it is silly to say that there are not people who will choose different options because of the car problem. The question is, will UA hit the HI celling with what they have planned, or not? I don't think they will, but I am just guessing, and we can't deny that there is a ceiling.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:42 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
It has everything to do with UA's network. Some posters think that demand to HI has a celling created by a rental car shortage. As one of the biggest carriers between the U.S. mainland and HI the shor5 term impact on UA's network could be significant. If you don't think this will effect UA I would be interested to hear why. You may be right.

As someone who is in Maui as I'm typing this, I can assure you that demand to HI definitely does not have a ceiling. Rental cars simply aren't that important. If you take away the rental car, you get a vacation that is simply more resort-oriented... and that isn't a turn-off for most people. When the beach is steps away, the pool is down 5 floors, the gym is around the corner, and there are food options in all sections of the hotel, rental cars do not become important. At the very least, people may be inconvenienced during their vacation, but as long as the tour operators are around, it is not at all a deterrent for people to visit, as evidenced by the spike in visitors to the islands.

Sure there are people who will still be happy to go to HI without a car, but it is silly to say that there are not people who will choose different options because of the car problem. The question is, will UA hit the HI celling with what they have planned, or not? I don't think they will, but I am just guessing, and we can't deny that there is a ceiling.


Can we talk about United’s routes and fleets instead of how to vacation without a rental car please?
 
Aliqiout
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:33 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
sfojvjets wrote:
As someone who is in Maui as I'm typing this, I can assure you that demand to HI definitely does not have a ceiling. Rental cars simply aren't that important. If you take away the rental car, you get a vacation that is simply more resort-oriented... and that isn't a turn-off for most people. When the beach is steps away, the pool is down 5 floors, the gym is around the corner, and there are food options in all sections of the hotel, rental cars do not become important. At the very least, people may be inconvenienced during their vacation, but as long as the tour operators are around, it is not at all a deterrent for people to visit, as evidenced by the spike in visitors to the islands.

Sure there are people who will still be happy to go to HI without a car, but it is silly to say that there are not people who will choose different options because of the car problem. The question is, will UA hit the HI celling with what they have planned, or not? I don't think they will, but I am just guessing, and we can't deny that there is a ceiling.


Can we talk about United’s routes and fleets instead of how to vacation without a rental car please?

Do you think UA has scheduled too many flights to HI? Not enough?
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:37 pm

A PW 77E is scheduled to perform a test flight today, however it is operating over 5 hours late after a lengthy creeping delay.

N796UA is scheduled to operate UA2714 ORD-LAX with UA's own test pilots at the controls.

I'm trying to ascertain if this aircrafts cowling has been fixed or strengthened here in Chicago or if United is ferrying the aircraft to LAX for eventual repairs. What I do know is with the limited space available to UA at LAX it is highly unlikely UA is simply moving this aircraft from ORD to LAX to simply put it in short term store it at LAX.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:05 am

United reported in talks to purchase 100-150 additional 737Max

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jbs2886
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:26 am

LAXintl wrote:
United reported in talks to purchase 100-150 additional 737Max

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK


What's interesting is that it is studying "several" models and "Boeing's portion" of the order is expected to be 150 MAX. So can we expect an Airbus or Embraer order, too? If Boeing takes 150 MAX that would make 200 MAX this year ordered.

Absolutely incredible UA is getting very aggressive. AA and DL slashed fleets and while DL has a significant number of upcoming deliveries, it pales in comparison to UA particularly as UA didn't slash its fleet. The question to me is whether AA or DL decide to get aggressive, too?
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:43 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Absolutely incredible UA is getting very aggressive. AA and DL slashed fleets and while DL has a significant number of upcoming deliveries, it pales in comparison to UA particularly as UA didn't slash its fleet. The question to me is whether AA or DL decide to get aggressive, too?


It is quite amazing to look at the post-pandemic fleets. If you account for all of AA and DL's retirements and presume all three are bringing their fleets back, UA will have a bigger mainline fleet than DL. Post-merger, UA has always stayed the smallest at around ~750 frames. Now it's up to what, about 820 (if you include all the PW 777s.) UA's weakness compared to the other two has also always been domestic capacity, and maybe they're finally going to catch up and outpace them.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 7M9 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90 ——— AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:14 am

That news is going to blow some minds.
 
airboss787
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:00 am

sldispatcher wrote:
That news is going to blow some minds.


Are you saying you have inside knowledge of this deal?
Star Alliance Gold
 
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ryanflyer
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:52 am

airboss787 wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
That news is going to blow some minds.


Are you saying you have inside knowledge of this deal?


Sometimes you just can’t ask, and have to take things for what it’s worth. There’s lots of folks here that have inside knowledge. On the flip side there’s lots of airmchair CEOs here. No clue if he has inside info, but he probably can’t talk about it if he does. Nor should he. Just take it for what it’s worth.
 
airboss787
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:08 pm

ryanflyer wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
That news is going to blow some minds.


Are you saying you have inside knowledge of this deal?


Sometimes you just can’t ask, and have to take things for what it’s worth. There’s lots of folks here that have inside knowledge. On the flip side there’s lots of airmchair CEOs here. No clue if he has inside info, but he probably can’t talk about it if he does. Nor should he. Just take it for what it’s worth.


Yes, I am aware of that and I am not asking for inside information, other than some clarity maybe on whether his statement was an opinion, a hope or a fact. Maybe I worded it wrong, just wanted to know what exactly that person meant.
Star Alliance Gold
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:11 pm

airboss787 wrote:
ryanflyer wrote:
airboss787 wrote:

Are you saying you have inside knowledge of this deal?


Sometimes you just can’t ask, and have to take things for what it’s worth. There’s lots of folks here that have inside knowledge. On the flip side there’s lots of airmchair CEOs here. No clue if he has inside info, but he probably can’t talk about it if he does. Nor should he. Just take it for what it’s worth.


Yes, I am aware of that and I am not asking for inside information, other than some clarity maybe on whether his statement was an opinion, a hope or a fact. Maybe I worded it wrong, just wanted to know what exactly that person meant.


No special inside news. The fact United would be shopping for that many planes in the summer of 2021 is going to really make some people go ‘wow’!
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:15 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
United reported in talks to purchase 100-150 additional 737Max

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK


What's interesting is that it is studying "several" models and "Boeing's portion" of the order is expected to be 150 MAX. So can we expect an Airbus or Embraer order, too? If Boeing takes 150 MAX that would make 200 MAX this year ordered.

Absolutely incredible UA is getting very aggressive. AA and DL slashed fleets and while DL has a significant number of upcoming deliveries, it pales in comparison to UA particularly as UA didn't slash its fleet. The question to me is whether AA or DL decide to get aggressive, too?


I'm not sure it is aggressive at all, pre-pandemic United had the smallest narrowbody fleet compared to DL and AA. The previous Boeing MAX orders for the 8s, 9s, and 10s were mostly going towards growth at least that is what United told employees. The A321XLR order is to replace our entire 752 fleet but UA really wants to focus that fleet on secondary European Markets and maybe even South America. If this order materializes this order would most likely be use to replace some older narrowbody aircraft like some 738s and A320/19s.

Also according to Reuters United is also in talks with Airbus as well for around 50 or so A321NEOs, this would be in addition to the 50 A321XLR already on order. I would imagine if UA does order some A321NEOs those would be used on domestic routes including some Hawaii routes.

It may seem like it is aggressive but both AA and DL have a much younger average fleet age when compared to United. Come 2024 or 2025 United is going to need to start phasing out many of these older model A320/19s and 738s.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/
 
Golfmikey
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:52 pm

788

N45905 Expected to depart XMN with Polaris on 6/13 UAL 2739..788 Polaris and PE now complete
 
UAinAUS
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:44 pm

UAX Update:

E145XR:
N27200 entered revenue service with CommutAir

CR5:
N503MJ exited AMA in EvoBlu livery. Ferried STL awaiting service entry.

E175:
All 153 E175s (excluding the SC model) have been returned to 76-seat configuration (12/16/48)
 
audidudi
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:11 pm

The next ex-EasyJet A319, N6308U, ferried from QLA>KEF>CLE today, and will ferry from CLE>GYR tomorrow:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n6308u
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:43 am

United 777-200 N214UA filed HNL-VCV 8AM - 4:21PM as UA2715 for storage. This is one of the PW engine birds, being moved to VCV for continued storage I presume.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n214ua
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling college and airplanes • Love the 747 & 777-9
 
Okcflyer
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:48 am

jayunited wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
United reported in talks to purchase 100-150 additional 737Max

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK


What's interesting is that it is studying "several" models and "Boeing's portion" of the order is expected to be 150 MAX. So can we expect an Airbus or Embraer order, too? If Boeing takes 150 MAX that would make 200 MAX this year ordered.

Absolutely incredible UA is getting very aggressive. AA and DL slashed fleets and while DL has a significant number of upcoming deliveries, it pales in comparison to UA particularly as UA didn't slash its fleet. The question to me is whether AA or DL decide to get aggressive, too?


I'm not sure it is aggressive at all, pre-pandemic United had the smallest narrowbody fleet compared to DL and AA. The previous Boeing MAX orders for the 8s, 9s, and 10s were mostly going towards growth at least that is what United told employees. The A321XLR order is to replace our entire 752 fleet but UA really wants to focus that fleet on secondary European Markets and maybe even South America. If this order materializes this order would most likely be use to replace some older narrowbody aircraft like some 738s and A320/19s.

Also according to Reuters United is also in talks with Airbus as well for around 50 or so A321NEOs, this would be in addition to the 50 A321XLR already on order. I would imagine if UA does order some A321NEOs those would be used on domestic routes including some Hawaii routes.

It may seem like it is aggressive but both AA and DL have a much younger average fleet age when compared to United. Come 2024 or 2025 United is going to need to start phasing out many of these older model A320/19s and 738s.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/


I’m of the opinion that should UA order 50-60 more standard A321neos, it’s highly likely they’re looking to go with GTF power on that fleet.

They should be getting some PW credits for the 4077 sh*tshow that can apply, and it gives them some diversity and additional leverage over CFM. 100-110 frames is more than enough scale to offset the commonality concerns. Not to mention, the GTF is the ideal engine for the 2019-ordered XLR’s due to its superior burn rate in cruise.
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:36 pm

I sincerely apologize for being dense, perhaps someone will be kind enough to dumb this down for me?

Pre Covid, Pre 737MAX disasters, UA had (I thought) 150 orders for the 737MAX-9 & 10. An undisclosed amount of MAX-10’s would be fitted with the new Lie-Flat First seats.
Also: 50 of the A321XLR all with Lie-Flat First

Then a “top off” of 35 737MAX’s

TODAY, we are looking at a very big additional order ON TOP of what I previously stated (if I was correct)

This LATEST order is for 200 ac…MORE? A mix of 737MAX 8 & 9’s and about 50 additional Airbus A320neo (mix not determined yet?)

And 15 Supersonic Overture (and options for 35 more) if the aircraft proves itself!

So, as I have read above, UA has added many used NB aircraft (and it MUST have cost a lot to fix them up because they are very nicely renovated + maintenance and paint) and 3 used 767-300ERs.

My head is spinning! Who would have thought post merger United would be such a different airline today?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:40 pm

Hopefully they will start the integration of the former WN 737-700s they’re acquiring.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:46 pm

STT757 wrote:
Hopefully they will start the integration of the former WN 737-700s they’re acquiring.


I actually really like 7377s! How many did UA buy to FLY?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:11 pm

VC10er wrote:
STT757 wrote:
Hopefully they will start the integration of the former WN 737-700s they’re acquiring.


I actually really like 7377s! How many did UA buy to FLY?


They’re acquiring 20 737-700s that are coming off leases at WN. I believe they were all former FL.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
x1234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:21 pm

I'm curious currently in a COVID season, how are the yields on UA's TPAC/TATL flights?
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:52 pm

x1234 wrote:
I'm curious currently in a COVID season, how are the yields on UA's TPAC/TATL flights?


No one on this thread is going to answer this question with any kind of absolute certainty. If you want to know how yields are doing on UA's TPAC/TATL flgihts you will just have to wait for United's Q2 earnings report which is at least 4 weeks away from being released.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:31 pm

jayunited wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I'm curious currently in a COVID season, how are the yields on UA's TPAC/TATL flights?


No one on this thread is going to answer this question with any kind of absolute certainty. If you want to know how yields are doing on UA's TPAC/TATL flgihts you will just have to wait for United's Q2 earnings report which is at least 4 weeks away from being released.


Let’s change the question to LFs lol!
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:02 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
jayunited wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I'm curious currently in a COVID season, how are the yields on UA's TPAC/TATL flights?


No one on this thread is going to answer this question with any kind of absolute certainty. If you want to know how yields are doing on UA's TPAC/TATL flgihts you will just have to wait for United's Q2 earnings report which is at least 4 weeks away from being released.


Let’s change the question to LFs lol!


Load factors are something we can discuss without having to wait for United to release official numbers.

United does not split out TPAC load factors those numbers are lump in with the over all total load factors I'm assuming it is because UA is only operating a few TPAC passenger routes.

However UA does split out TATL load factors for revenue passengers and the load factors are vary wildly depending on the day of the week. This upcoming week UA's revenue load factors on all our TATL passenger service routes on Tuesday will top out at 39% that is our lowest TATL load factor this up coming week. The highest revenue TATL load factor is expected on next Saturday at 55.3%. All other days next week fall in between those numbers, but this represents a substantial improvement over this time last month where during the 3rd week of May our highest TATL load factor for that week was on a Friday at 36.8% and our lowest load factor that week was on Sunday of all days at 27.4%.

So over the span of 4 weeks our TATL revenue load factors have improved somewhat, but obviously we still have a long way to go.

Since we are talking passenger numbers some more good news for the first time since the pandemic began UA's revenue passenger count at SFO will exceed 15,000 revenue O&D passengers every day next week with Saturday's numbers topping 17,000 O&D passengers. Over at DEN UA's revenue O&D passenger count will top also for the first time since the pandemic 40,000 revenue passengers in a single day on tomorrow which is Sunday June 13th and IAH topping out at 39,790 revenue passengers in a single day tomorrow as well.
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 303
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:36 am

UAX Update:

E145XR:
N11192 entered revenue service with CommutAir

CR5:
N503MJ entered revenue service with GoJet (now 46 active CRJ-550s in the fleet)
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:16 am

jayunited wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
jayunited wrote:

No one on this thread is going to answer this question with any kind of absolute certainty. If you want to know how yields are doing on UA's TPAC/TATL flgihts you will just have to wait for United's Q2 earnings report which is at least 4 weeks away from being released.


Let’s change the question to LFs lol!


Load factors are something we can discuss without having to wait for United to release official numbers.

United does not split out TPAC load factors those numbers are lump in with the over all total load factors I'm assuming it is because UA is only operating a few TPAC passenger routes.

However UA does split out TATL load factors for revenue passengers and the load factors are vary wildly depending on the day of the week. This upcoming week UA's revenue load factors on all our TATL passenger service routes on Tuesday will top out at 39% that is our lowest TATL load factor this up coming week. The highest revenue TATL load factor is expected on next Saturday at 55.3%. All other days next week fall in between those numbers, but this represents a substantial improvement over this time last month where during the 3rd week of May our highest TATL load factor for that week was on a Friday at 36.8% and our lowest load factor that week was on Sunday of all days at 27.4%.

So over the span of 4 weeks our TATL revenue load factors have improved somewhat, but obviously we still have a long way to go.

Since we are talking passenger numbers some more good news for the first time since the pandemic began UA's revenue passenger count at SFO will exceed 15,000 revenue O&D passengers every day next week with Saturday's numbers topping 17,000 O&D passengers. Over at DEN UA's revenue O&D passenger count will top also for the first time since the pandemic 40,000 revenue passengers in a single day on tomorrow which is Sunday June 13th and IAH topping out at 39,790 revenue passengers in a single day tomorrow as well.


Thanks so much! Any records or LFs for EWR?
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:40 pm

With what appears to be pricing power returning (in many smaller markets at least), I’m assuming this summer season is going to be good or even better than anticipated for United?

I’m trying to get to Lake Champlain area in late July.
BTV, ALB, BDL, etc are all north of $900 RT per person. Amazing what 4 months difference can make.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:05 pm

772A/PW
N210UA sked GUM-VCV 2702/14 and 2703/14 via HNL for relocated storage.
​​​​​​​This leaves N780UA as the last remaining PW powered 772A/ER unit in the Pacific at HNL.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1470
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:11 pm

VC10er wrote:
I sincerely apologize for being dense, perhaps someone will be kind enough to dumb this down for me?

Pre Covid, Pre 737MAX disasters, UA had (I thought) 150 orders for the 737MAX-9 & 10. An undisclosed amount of MAX-10’s would be fitted with the new Lie-Flat First seats.
Also: 50 of the A321XLR all with Lie-Flat First

Then a “top off” of 35 737MAX’s

TODAY, we are looking at a very big additional order ON TOP of what I previously stated (if I was correct)

This LATEST order is for 200 ac…MORE? A mix of 737MAX 8 & 9’s and about 50 additional Airbus A320neo (mix not determined yet?)

And 15 Supersonic Overture (and options for 35 more) if the aircraft proves itself!

So, as I have read above, UA has added many used NB aircraft (and it MUST have cost a lot to fix them up because they are very nicely renovated + maintenance and paint) and 3 used 767-300ERs.

My head is spinning! Who would have thought post merger United would be such a different airline today?


Well they have over 600 narrowbodies that will need replacing at some point...yes they are still taking on used ones and many are pretty new, but you have to get orders in early (and can take advantage of lower prices due to COVID and the MAX situation)...but with that they only have orders to replace about half of that and that doesn't plan for any growth or upgauging from regional flying. So there's definitely a need for more orders.
 
jbs2886
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:13 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I sincerely apologize for being dense, perhaps someone will be kind enough to dumb this down for me?

Pre Covid, Pre 737MAX disasters, UA had (I thought) 150 orders for the 737MAX-9 & 10. An undisclosed amount of MAX-10’s would be fitted with the new Lie-Flat First seats.
Also: 50 of the A321XLR all with Lie-Flat First

Then a “top off” of 35 737MAX’s

TODAY, we are looking at a very big additional order ON TOP of what I previously stated (if I was correct)

This LATEST order is for 200 ac…MORE? A mix of 737MAX 8 & 9’s and about 50 additional Airbus A320neo (mix not determined yet?)

And 15 Supersonic Overture (and options for 35 more) if the aircraft proves itself!

So, as I have read above, UA has added many used NB aircraft (and it MUST have cost a lot to fix them up because they are very nicely renovated + maintenance and paint) and 3 used 767-300ERs.

My head is spinning! Who would have thought post merger United would be such a different airline today?


Well they have over 600 narrowbodies that will need replacing at some point...yes they are still taking on used ones and many are pretty new, but you have to get orders in early (and can take advantage of lower prices due to COVID and the MAX situation)...but with that they only have orders to replace about half of that and that doesn't plan for any growth or upgauging from regional flying. So there's definitely a need for more orders.


Many of those aircraft don’t need replacing anytime soon. Using your theory the whole fleet needs replacing at some point so there’s a need for more orders.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:11 pm

June marks the 5-year anniversary of the Polaris seat product public intro by Oscar.

Like the previous Diamond seat, we have seen a pretty slow install. Sad that not all the fleet is equipped yet especially the majority of key 787-9 still missing.

Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
gwrudolph
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:11 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
I sincerely apologize for being dense, perhaps someone will be kind enough to dumb this down for me?

Pre Covid, Pre 737MAX disasters, UA had (I thought) 150 orders for the 737MAX-9 & 10. An undisclosed amount of MAX-10’s would be fitted with the new Lie-Flat First seats.
Also: 50 of the A321XLR all with Lie-Flat First

Then a “top off” of 35 737MAX’s

TODAY, we are looking at a very big additional order ON TOP of what I previously stated (if I was correct)

This LATEST order is for 200 ac…MORE? A mix of 737MAX 8 & 9’s and about 50 additional Airbus A320neo (mix not determined yet?)

And 15 Supersonic Overture (and options for 35 more) if the aircraft proves itself!

So, as I have read above, UA has added many used NB aircraft (and it MUST have cost a lot to fix them up because they are very nicely renovated + maintenance and paint) and 3 used 767-300ERs.

My head is spinning! Who would have thought post merger United would be such a different airline today?


Well they have over 600 narrowbodies that will need replacing at some point...yes they are still taking on used ones and many are pretty new, but you have to get orders in early (and can take advantage of lower prices due to COVID and the MAX situation)...but with that they only have orders to replace about half of that and that doesn't plan for any growth or upgauging from regional flying. So there's definitely a need for more orders.


Many of those aircraft don’t need replacing anytime soon. Using your theory the whole fleet needs replacing at some point so there’s a need for more orders.


Well there is validity to the lead time on orders claim he makes. Figure by the time this order is signed, sealed, delivered, and a 3 year lead time you are talking 2025-26 deliveries on the inside. By that time, many of the older 319/320s will be 30 years old and even the younger 2001 builds will be 25 years old. So, now is the time for planning replacements for some of those older aircraft.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:21 pm

United did not become nearly aggressive enough with Polaris installs until 2018 or so, and purchasing decisions were made in 2015/2016, well into the development of the Polaris product, that ensured some Diamond shipsets would not be fully depreciated until, like, now.

Even still, the fleet would likely have been fully converted by earlier this year were it not for COVID-related suspension of capex. It’s also unfortunate that some 29 Polaris-equipped 777-200ERs are sitting in the desert right now due to the PW4000 debacle. That extra slack in the fleet might have allowed the 789 mod lines to resume sooner than the fall, as currently planned.
 
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STT757
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:23 pm

LAXintl wrote:
June marks the 5-year anniversary of the Polaris seat product public intro by Oscar.

Like the previous Diamond seat, we have seen a pretty slow install. Sad that not all the fleet is equipped yet especially the majority of key 787-9 still missing.

Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.


The A350s might be the platform to launch a new product, 2027.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:32 pm

LAXintl wrote:
June marks the 5-year anniversary of the Polaris seat product public intro by Oscar.

Like the previous Diamond seat, we have seen a pretty slow install. Sad that not all the fleet is equipped yet especially the majority of key 787-9 still missing.

Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.


This is both a fair and an unfair assessment at the the same time. It is fair because the rollout of Polaris in 2016 was slow walked it is something Oscar talked about after his tenor with United Airlines. And then there are of course the rumors of decisions being made in 2015 and early 2016 that resulted all 789 deliveries between 2017 and most of 2019 being delivered with Diamond seats instead of Polaris Seats when Polaris could have debuted on the 789 in 2017 right after its initial debut on the 77W in 2016. Your criticism of the 789s is in my opinion is spot on because Oscar should have put his foot down in 2015 or early enough in 2016 to make sure all 789 deliveries from 2017 onward were delivered with Polaris.

The part that makes this unfair is COVID and the disruption COVID has caused. If not for the pandemic and subsequent down turn in travel UA's entire widebody fleet would have been completed by July of this year. Even though I 100% agree with your criticism of the 789s the original plan before COVID called for the 789s to be completed by the middle of spring 2021 and the 764s which were schedule to begin Polaris conversion in November of 2020 were scheduled to be completed by July of 2021. Prior to COVID United's plan was to have the entire international fleet equip with Polaris by the start of the busy summer 2021 travel season.

Without question the rollout of Polaris was chaotic, and riffled with infighting behind the scenes with some people thinking Oscar was spending to much money. So yes the rollout could have gone smoother and quicker if Oscar had taken more control. However by November of 2018 United had really picked up the pace and was turning out aircraft equip with Polaris every 15 to 20 days. At one point there were five PW 777 lines running at XMN, three 763 lines at HKG, and another three 777 GE lines up and running at HKG as well, and in 2019 as the PW 777s were completed XMN began switching lines over so they could modify our 787 fleet then COVID shut everything down for a few months.
 
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UPlog
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:44 pm

The B/E Diamond seat install was also a painfully slow process at United. I wish they would have learned and been much more aggressive with Polaris.

Running a split product especially while hyping Polaris and its benefits while only having a fraction of fleet equipped and brand new 787s still arriving with the old diamond seat was a recipe for customer disappointment and confusion.

While it obviously cant be accomplished overnight, the project should not be one that runs for 5-years. Imo it should have been all completed within a max 3-year period.
I fly your boxes
 
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intotheair
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:40 am

LAXintl wrote:
Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.


I think the design of the Polaris seat is still very good. I flew the high J 763 on SFO-JFK a few weeks ago, and it's a very stunning cabin, especially for such an old plane. The seat has plenty of space, storage, and privacy. What's not to like? Other airlines like AF are just getting around to installing basically the same seat.

I have a hard time imagining how they'd be able to significantly improve it anytime soon. The LY version and the long-delayed new LH seat look pretty similar with a little more space, but I doubt UA would want to sacrifice too much more density. Doors seem to be the current must-have trend in J, but I don't think that would be a huge improvement that would justify a significant overhaul. I don't think UA would ever go for anything too premium or out there like QR's QSuite either.

What UA needs to focus on is improving the soft product and ensuring it remains consistent. It always seems to waver every few years. Getting the IPTE seats off the 77As if they return should also be a priority.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 7M9 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90 ——— AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:31 pm

UPlog wrote:
The B/E Diamond seat install was also a painfully slow process at United. I wish they would have learned and been much more aggressive with Polaris.

Running a split product especially while hyping Polaris and its benefits while only having a fraction of fleet equipped and brand new 787s still arriving with the old diamond seat was a recipe for customer disappointment and confusion.

While it obviously cant be accomplished overnight, the project should not be one that runs for 5-years. Imo it should have been all completed within a max 3-year period.


Completing a project like Polaris in 3 years for an airline with a pretty aggressive international schedule like UA had pre-pandemic is not realistic. Take for example the summer of 2019 United had a pretty aggressive Polaris/PE installation schedule and 2019 was a very busy summer for United. I believe if I remember correctly because there were so many 77Es out of service for Polaris/PE United leaned very heavily on our 789s which resulted in the airline only have 1 spare 789 frame, I think we had 2 or 3 spare 77E and around 4 spare 763s. United was ferrying 787s between LAX, SFO, IAD, and DEN. We were ferrying 77Es (both GE and PW) between EWR, IAD, ORD, IAH, and SFO, and 763s between EWR, IAD, ORD, and IAH. There were plenty of days in 2019 United was forced to cancel numerous international long haul flights because to many aircraft were out of service and we didn't have enough spares to cover the out of service aircraft. For United to complete a project like Polaris in 3 years max as you stated we would have had to suspend or outright cancel at least 1/3 of all our international long haul flights for the 2 or 3 years that you've given us to complete the project

You are also forgetting the FAA requires airlines to obtain an STC for each fleet type whenever they alter or modify something from its original design. It takes time to for an airline to receive an STC from the FAA in some cases it has been 3-4 months between the first frame reentering service receiving the STC and the second frame enter service.

Also in the case of the 763s and both the GE and PW 77Es the Polaris 763 installation schedule coincided with the airframes heavy maintenance check. Since the heavy maintenance check requires the aircraft be stripped down it is bare bones why schedule a aircraft for Polaris/PE installation one year when the very next year that same frame will have to go back to have the entire interior stripped out again for a heavy maintenance check? United widebody fleet averages a D Check or heavy maintenance around every 7-9 years depending several factors. And by the way a D Check on a widebody frame can cost an airline $3-$6 million dollars per frame depending on the aircraft. By combining the Polaris/PE schedule with the heavy maintenance schedule an airline can lower the cost of refurbishing a widebody fleet. With United having over 200 widebody frames the cost of separating out a refurbishment from a heavy maintenance check would be astronomical.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:56 pm

" United is expecting to take deliveries of 40 MAX jets in 2022 and 54 in 2023. "
It has accelerated deliveries of the MAX, and is going to order many more, along with the A321.
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codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:10 pm

jayunited wrote:
UPlog wrote:
The B/E Diamond seat install was also a painfully slow process at United. I wish they would have learned and been much more aggressive with Polaris.

Running a split product especially while hyping Polaris and its benefits while only having a fraction of fleet equipped and brand new 787s still arriving with the old diamond seat was a recipe for customer disappointment and confusion.

While it obviously cant be accomplished overnight, the project should not be one that runs for 5-years. Imo it should have been all completed within a max 3-year period.


Completing a project like Polaris in 3 years for an airline with a pretty aggressive international schedule like UA had pre-pandemic is not realistic. Take for example the summer of 2019 United had a pretty aggressive Polaris/PE installation schedule and 2019 was a very busy summer for United. I believe if I remember correctly because there were so many 77Es out of service for Polaris/PE United leaned very heavily on our 789s which resulted in the airline only have 1 spare 789 frame, I think we had 2 or 3 spare 77E and around 4 spare 763s. United was ferrying 787s between LAX, SFO, IAD, and DEN. We were ferrying 77Es (both GE and PW) between EWR, IAD, ORD, IAH, and SFO, and 763s between EWR, IAD, ORD, and IAH. There were plenty of days in 2019 United was forced to cancel numerous international long haul flights because to many aircraft were out of service and we didn't have enough spares to cover the out of service aircraft. For United to complete a project like Polaris in 3 years max as you stated we would have had to suspend or outright cancel at least 1/3 of all our international long haul flights for the 2 or 3 years that you've given us to complete the project

You are also forgetting the FAA requires airlines to obtain an STC for each fleet type whenever they alter or modify something from its original design. It takes time to for an airline to receive an STC from the FAA in some cases it has been 3-4 months between the first frame reentering service receiving the STC and the second frame enter service.

Also in the case of the 763s and both the GE and PW 77Es the Polaris 763 installation schedule coincided with the airframes heavy maintenance check. Since the heavy maintenance check requires the aircraft be stripped down it is bare bones why schedule a aircraft for Polaris/PE installation one year when the very next year that same frame will have to go back to have the entire interior stripped out again for a heavy maintenance check? United widebody fleet averages a D Check or heavy maintenance around every 7-9 years depending several factors. And by the way a D Check on a widebody frame can cost an airline $3-$6 million dollars per frame depending on the aircraft. By combining the Polaris/PE schedule with the heavy maintenance schedule an airline can lower the cost of refurbishing a widebody fleet. With United having over 200 widebody frames the cost of separating out a refurbishment from a heavy maintenance check would be astronomical.


This is a great point, and needs to be emphasized... United's widebody fleet is massive, and prior to the pandemic, whenever prompted, I don't think anyone has been able to point to a project of similar scale that was completed in a more expeditious manner.

With that said, United's pace of retrofits prior to 2018 was pretty languid, and combined with the long-lead announcement of the product (June 2016) it's easy to see what has created the perception of a slow rollout.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:07 pm

There also was a delay in Polaris seats that added to the delayed implementation.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:08 pm

I believe one of the significant missteps surrounding Polaris was the companies strong out-of-the-gate marketing for a product that was so elusive for customers to experience with the very small fleet count having been refitted.

Sure the pillows and updated food offerings are nice, but 90% of what people looked for was the seat, and this led to many disappointing experiences. Smartly, UA backed off the aggressive marketing pitch, though it took alteast two years and certainly many thousands of customer complaints for it to sink in.

And speaking of Polaris food and soft product, its been continually trimmed back since launch also. Not a great omen for something that was pitched as an exclusive onboard experience.

intotheair wrote:
I think the design of the Polaris seat is still very good. I flew the high J 763 on SFO-JFK a few weeks ago, and it's a very stunning cabin, especially for such an old plane. The seat has plenty of space, storage, and privacy. What's not to like? Other airlines like AF are just getting around to installing basically the same seat.

I have a hard time imagining how they'd be able to significantly improve it anytime soon. The LY version and the long-delayed new LH seat look pretty similar with a little more space, but I doubt UA would want to sacrifice too much more density. Doors seem to be the current must-have trend in J, but I don't think that would be a huge improvement that would justify a significant overhaul. I don't think UA would ever go for anything too premium or out there like QR's QSuite either.


To be honest, the seat underwhelmed me. Too narrow and crowded cabin for my taste. I much prefer reverse herringbone offerings such as AA, AC, CX, etc.

Industry move has been to de-densify premium cabins. UA obviously did not follow that path and chose something that would allow them to keep parity with IPTE seat count.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Coalways
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:41 pm

CALTECH wrote:
" United is expecting to take deliveries of 40 MAX jets in 2022 and 54 in 2023. "
It has accelerated deliveries of the MAX, and is going to order many more, along with the A321.


That’s awesome lots of lift the next 2 years and going to be a nice ride with the AVODs screens from nose to tail….
 
amtravels
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:47 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.


I don’t know too much about the technical nature of the design of the seat, but is it realistic that United could come out with a Polaris Suite? Aka a version of the existing seat with a door added a la Delta or Jet Blue?
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:25 pm

amtravels wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.


I don’t know too much about the technical nature of the design of the seat, but is it realistic that United could come out with a Polaris Suite? Aka a version of the existing seat with a door added a la Delta or Jet Blue?

It doesn't look like Safran offers a door for the Optima seat (aka United Polaris) but they do offer a door on their Versa seat that doesn't look like it would be horribly difficult to retrofit.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:27 pm

amtravels wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Considering premium seat products often only survive 10-years until the next generations are introduced, UA likely needs to start looking at Polaris-II soon if not already.


I don’t know too much about the technical nature of the design of the seat, but is it realistic that United could come out with a Polaris Suite? Aka a version of the existing seat with a door added a la Delta or Jet Blue?


I think the Optima product line has a door option, but I don’t know if any airlines have selected it yet, or if it would be compatible with the existing Polaris seat.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, and Discussion Thread - Q2 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:05 pm

Some trivia for those who like knowing this stuff, approximate numbers...

NOSE TIRES

FLEET TYPE....................................LBS............KGS................$
737-700/800/900/900ER NOSE..........75............34...................$6,160
737-8/9 MAX NOSE............................70............32...................$4,575
757-200/300 NOSE...........................120............55...................$2,550
767-300/400 NOSE...........................180........... 82.................. $6,300
777-/200ER NOSE............................245..........112.................. $2,800
777-300ER NOSE.............................295..........134.................$11,700
777-200/-200ER NOSE.....................240..........109...................$5,100
787-8/9/10 NOSE..............................205............93...................$8,400
A319/320 NOSE..................................95............43...................$2,100

MAIN TIRES

FLEET TYPE....................................LBS........... KGS..............$
737-700/800 CARBON MAIN...........385.............175.............. $20,500
737-9 MAX MAIN..............................340.............154.............. $25,700
737-900/900ER CARBON MAIN......385.............175...............$17,500
757-300-GR MAIN............................285.............129.................$1,350
767-300 MAIN...................................415.............188.................$6,550
777/767-400 MAIN............................460.............209.................$4,900
777-300ER MAIN..............................510.............231...............$32,600
777A-200 MAIN.................................460.............209...............$12,400
777B-200ER MAIN............................465.............211.................$9,950
787-8 MAIN.......................................440.............200...............$22,700
787-9/10 MAIN..................................540.............245...............$24,000
A319/320 MAIN.................................330.............150.................$4,300

BRAKES

FLEET TYPE......................................LBS.............KGS..............$
737-7/8/900+900ER CARBON............240..............109..............$6,860
757-300-GR.........................................220..............100..............$3,420
767-300...............................................305...............138............$22,820
777/767-400........................................325...............147............$15,140
777-300ER..........................................355...............161............$95,960
787-8...................................................350...............159..........$103,610
787-9/10..............................................420...............190..........$124,670
A319/320.............................................255...............116............$27,580
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