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DL757NYC
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Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:32 pm

I saw on airfleets that 3 LR’s the newest 777’s Delta had delivered circa 2009/10 are going to FED EX to be converted to freighters. Is this even possible? I was under the impression there was no freighter conversion program.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LAX772LR
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:48 pm

There is a program for 777-300ER converted freighters; which makes sense, as there's more of those than all DC10/MD11s combined.

I wasn't aware that the 772LR had been included in such a proposal, if indeed it has. I'd be doubtful, considering how few of them there are.

Definitely wouldn't get excited over such an announcement until there's an official corroborative source.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SEPilot
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm

Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it. It might be possible under the conversion developed for the 77W. They are essentially the same plane. Just the length is different.
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WorldFlier
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
I saw on airfleets that 3 LR’s the newest 777’s Delta had delivered circa 2009/10 are going to FED EX to be converted to freighters. Is this even possible? I was under the impression there was no freighter conversion program.


Aren't the LR and F very similar? What would make this a challenge?

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B77L
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:55 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
What would make this a challenge?

Finding someone willing to justify the cost of certifying it, considering how few units there are to spread that cost over.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Antarius
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:04 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
I saw on airfleets that 3 LR’s the newest 777’s Delta had delivered circa 2009/10 are going to FED EX to be converted to freighters. Is this even possible? I was under the impression there was no freighter conversion program.


Aren't the LR and F very similar? What would make this a challenge?

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B77L


Certification.

Takes time and money. When you have a max feedstock of 60, it's unlikely that anyone will embark on this.
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CrimsonNL
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:07 pm

Could this not simply be for part-out in support of the existing FX 777 fleet, rather then a conversion? I don't think PAX LR's are in hot demand these days, so they probably got a good deal.
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:33 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
Could this not simply be for part-out in support of the existing FX 777 fleet, rather then a conversion? I don't think PAX LR's are in hot demand these days, so they probably got a good deal.


Given there is no current P2F for the 77L, buying DL's frames as spare part donors would seem to be a more logical reason.
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:35 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
Could this not simply be for part-out in support of the existing FX 777 fleet, rather then a conversion? I don't think PAX LR's are in hot demand these days, so they probably got a good deal.


100%. I’ve heard this FX 77L from DL rumor for a bit and couldn’t make heads or tails on how in the world this could be true. This ‘buy it and harvest parts from it’ idea honestly makes the most sense. There’s no way (I’ll regret saying this later lol) that FX would pay all that $$$ for such a low feedstock of 77Ls as other posters have stated.

The only way that a conversion program could be feasible is if they took Delta’s, Air Canada’s (which may or may not be retired, currently ‘stored’), and maybe some from other airlines (EK/QR/AI anyone?). If they were to basically take 75% of the -LRs out there and convert them, I could see a VERY slim possibility that it could happen (just because then the cost for the certification/conversion program is decently lower than buying 30+ new build aircraft).
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:07 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
CrimsonNL wrote:
Could this not simply be for part-out in support of the existing FX 777 fleet, rather then a conversion? I don't think PAX LR's are in hot demand these days, so they probably got a good deal.


100%. I’ve heard this FX 77L from DL rumor for a bit and couldn’t make heads or tails on how in the world this could be true. This ‘buy it and harvest parts from it’ idea honestly makes the most sense. There’s no way (I’ll regret saying this later lol) that FX would pay all that $$$ for such a low feedstock of 77Ls as other posters have stated.

The only way that a conversion program could be feasible is if they took Delta’s, Air Canada’s (which may or may not be retired, currently ‘stored’), and maybe some from other airlines (EK/QR/AI anyone?). If they were to basically take 75% of the -LRs out there and convert them, I could see a VERY slim possibility that it could happen (just because then the cost for the certification/conversion program is decently lower than buying 30+ new build aircraft).


FedEx has 45 B777F's active in their fleet and are due to have 10 more delivered new from Boeing between now and 2025, so it seems that their long-haul, heavy lift requirements are pretty much worked out until the latter half of this decade. FedEx did take delivery of a used B777F from Etihad in January of this year, but it is currently parked.

As mentioned, the B777LR's have much commonality with the B777F in terms of engines, subsystems and parts, so if FX is planning to buy Delta's B777LR fleet, it will probably be for their parts. As many others have opined, I doubt FX would underwrite a B777LR to PF conversion program. Besides, rumor has it that Boeing is strongly considering getting into the B777-300ER/BCF business in the near future to compete with GECAS.
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:09 pm

Boeing could convert a 777-200LR to 777F under the airplane's type certificate. Still may not be cost effective,
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:24 pm

Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:39 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
There’s no way (I’ll regret saying this later lol) that FX would pay all that $$$ for such a low feedstock of 77Ls as other posters have stated.


The MD-10 program would like to discuss this with you. :stirthepot:

(I know there was already a DC-10 freighter conversion program and the MD-10 program was an additional cockpit upgrade).
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:56 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
Besides, rumor has it that Boeing is strongly considering getting into the B777-300ER/BCF business in the near future to compete with GECAS.

Would this be something they could fit into the 787's former production area at PAE?



MO11 wrote:
Boeing could convert a 777-200LR to 777F under the airplane's type certificate.

Not without an additional certification process.

But no one's disputing that the conversion could be done, and relatively simply; it's just who'd bother paying for it?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:02 pm

zkojq wrote:
Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?


You would think that Boeing, could come up with an package to convert both the 77E/L into 77F model.

It’s not like Boeing has much other bussiness at the moment ....
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:06 pm

It would seem to me that if true, and given the low resale market on the pax -LRs, that this a way for FX to get 6 spare engines and 3 full sets of gear at market value with the added benefit of a full frame of spare parts tossed in for pennies on the dollar.
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:12 pm

zkncj wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?


You would think that Boeing, could come up with an package to convert both the 77E/L into 77F model.

It’s not like Boeing has much other bussiness at the moment ....


The 77E and 77L are different aircraft with different engines etc. As it's been said plenty of times up thread - it is definitely doable for the 77L; it's not worth it.

For the second point, happy now that you got it out of your system? :roll:
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:47 pm

eightcone wrote:
It would seem to me that if true, and given the low resale market on the pax -LRs, that this a way for FX to get 6 spare engines and 3 full sets of gear at market value with the added benefit of a full frame of spare parts tossed in for pennies on the dollar.


Yes, FX has a large enough fleet of pricey 777F that it is well worth getting a good supply of spare parts for contingencies, damages, rotation of major systems thru maintenance. Their 777F fleet is their crown jewel that they plan to run for many years. I expect until 2040.
 
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:50 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
There is a program for 777-300ER converted freighters; which makes sense, as there's more of those than all DC10/MD11s combined.

I wasn't aware that the 772LR had been included in such a proposal, if indeed it has. I'd be doubtful, considering how few of them there are.

Definitely wouldn't get excited over such an announcement until there's an official corroborative source.

Would the LR be able to be converted under a 200 or 300 conversion program? On paper it's a 200 but it's mostly a shrunk 300ER.
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:54 pm

DocLightning wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
There’s no way (I’ll regret saying this later lol) that FX would pay all that $$$ for such a low feedstock of 77Ls as other posters have stated.


The MD-10 program would like to discuss this with you. :stirthepot:

(I know there was already a DC-10 freighter conversion program and the MD-10 program was an additional cockpit upgrade).



Ok, so that is actually a more relevant point than at first meets the eye. Namely, that the MD-10 is not a DC-10 in the strictest sense where capability and commonality are concerned —ditto MD-11. It is in many senses, its own subfleet.

It is not a huge deal, as they have obviously made it work, and very well, within their system.

As it regards to the 77L to BCF, there would be similar differences, although those would be limited to capability vs new-build 77Fs. FX, being a much more of a parcel carrier, should not have a problem with this. They can leave the that floor with a more minimal level of reinforcement —a la 77W to BCF— and be fine.

As is typical of a.net, we are taking an exaggerated focus on a particular detail and ignoring the 35,000ft view. There is no regulatory reason a 77L to F/BCF program cannot be added to what GECAS are doing and what BCA have said they wish to do for the 77W in that regard. The cost of building up a conversion to test is there, but if there are customers waiting, it is not as problematic as unduly feared. In this case, the feasibility question centers more on would FX want to do that, vs simply taking on 777-300BCFs instead. There is not a lot of difference in operational requirement and acquisition cost and they would add some uplift. And as well, a goodly percentage of 77L spares components would have effectivity for such a fleet.


eightcone wrote:
It would seem to me that if true, and given the low resale market on the pax -LRs, that this a way for FX to get 6 spare engines and 3 full sets of gear at market value with the added benefit of a full frame of spare parts tossed in for pennies on the dollar.


There is a small cost associated with changing the powerplant ratings, but it is hardly new territory, yes.


zkncj wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?


You would think that Boeing, could come up with an package to convert both the 77E/L into 77F model.


That has studied before. It is not impossible, but given the age of the 77Es, it may be difficult to entice customers to that in a world of A333Fs & 777-300BCFs inexpensively available on either end...


LAX772LR"
Would this be something they could fit into the 787's former production area at PAE?
[/quote]

Along with a Wal-Mart and a few Horse Tracks, sure. Unless BCA are serious about relocating their Renton line there, they will not be short space anytime soon.


[quote="LAX772LR wrote:

But no one's disputing that the conversion could be done, and relatively simply; it's just who'd bother paying for it?


It would be an added cost to the 77W conversion program. That does add cost, but not anything like enough to be a show-stopper. The issue is that most potential customers will see that and simply decide to buy up to the extra volume the 777-300BCF adds —even if MTOWS are similar/same.
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:08 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
On paper it's a 200 but it's mostly a shrunk 300ER.

Other way around.

Despite the 77W debuting first; from a design standpoint, the 773 platform is a stretch of the baseline 772.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:00 pm

This was the hot topic on the last Delta 777 flight back in October. I heard it was a done deal back then.
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Antarius
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
As is typical of a.net, we are taking an exaggerated focus on a particular detail and ignoring the 35,000ft view.


That's actually what's going on in your post. A.net is focused on the technical ability and possibility while ignoring the commerical implications completely.
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FLALEFTY
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:35 pm

DocLightning wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
There’s no way (I’ll regret saying this later lol) that FX would pay all that $$$ for such a low feedstock of 77Ls as other posters have stated.


The MD-10 program would like to discuss this with you. :stirthepot:

(I know there was already a DC-10 freighter conversion program and the MD-10 program was an additional cockpit upgrade).


The MD-10 conversion program required extensive mods to the DC-10. It was a program launched right before Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas merged and was continued after the merger. FedEx (who turned out to be the only customer) originally planned to have 50 MD-10 conversions, but the program stopped after the 33rd delivery to FedEx.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 02txt.html
 
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:58 pm

Antarius wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
As is typical of a.net, we are taking an exaggerated focus on a particular detail and ignoring the 35,000ft view.


That's actually what's going on in your post. A.net is focused on the technical ability and possibility while ignoring the commerical implications completely.



I do not know what 'Commerical' means. Nevertheless. . .

This thread asks what could be done, and why/how. Not what you think is happening next week. If you know of some reason why RA's will change their rules WRT these mods, or why an LR cannot be used for a parts, or why a -300BCF is suddenly less commercially preferable to a modded LR, by all means, do tell.

If you have a difficulty seeing this, I would invite you to re-read what was actually written —slowly if need be—, rather than building some story out of one line. I have observed a propensity for that.

In any case, commercial and technical elements were well covered the first time.

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
On paper it's a 200 but it's mostly a shrunk 300ER.

Other way around.

Despite the 77W debuting first; from a design standpoint, the 773 platform is a stretch of the baseline 772.


I had always seen around various water coolers that that was more along the lines of the 340NG program. Concurrent development of a functionally singular product for divergent market needs. Obviously that does not apply to the A-market iterations from the 1990ies.
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DenverTed
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:45 am

Since the 773ER is 50K heavier than an LR, does this give the LR a higher freight capacity and landing weight by close to 50K?
And, how many 773ER freight conversions are likely, 50, 100, what's a ballpark number?
 
Starfuryt
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:24 am

DenverTed wrote:
Since the 773ER is 50K heavier than an LR, does this give the LR a higher freight capacity and landing weight by close to 50K?
And, how many 773ER freight conversions are likely, 50, 100, what's a ballpark number?


This is an interesting question actually, on paper 77F is 20k lbs lighter than 777-300ERSF, with MTOW of 10k lbs below which in theory means it can take 10k lbs more cargo at the same fuel load.
Note that 777-300 ERSF doesn't have the same OEW as 77W (370k vs 336k lbs). I'd love to know where the freighter conversion sheds 35k pounds, that's a fairly significant number.
 
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
On paper it's a 200 but it's mostly a shrunk 300ER.

Other way around.

Despite the 77W debuting first; from a design standpoint, the 773 platform is a stretch of the baseline 772.


In some ways you are 50% right and 50% wrong.

The 777-300 (773) is a straight stretch of the 777-200.

The 777-300ER (77W) and 777-200LR are almost a 777NG, not that they were ever marketed as such. They were designed as a common platform, and neither is a stretch or shrink of the other.
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LAX772LR
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:11 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
On paper it's a 200 but it's mostly a shrunk 300ER.

Other way around.

Despite the 77W debuting first; from a design standpoint, the 773 platform is a stretch of the baseline 772.


In some ways you are 50% right and 50% wrong.

The 777-300 (773) is a straight stretch of the 777-200.

The 777-300ER (77W) and 777-200LR are almost a 777NG, not that they were ever marketed as such. They were designed as a common platform, and neither is a stretch or shrink of the other.

No they weren't. Nothing of the sort in fact.
They're virtually the same frames, wing, empennage, etc as the original base and stretched platform.

Primary differences are gear, internal reinforcement, added wingtip devices, and of course engine. Different, but nowhere remotely near the engineering differences between based and current that went into an actual "NG" like the 737, or even the newer A340s.

The -NG for the model would however be the current 777X; with a completely different wing, new build materials, etc.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hannah9898
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:40 am

Some of airfleets sources are false. But if it's the 77W, it would be solded to Russian airlines or ended up for conversion like older NG's. But for 77L, idk.
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:25 pm

zkojq wrote:
Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?


There actually isn’t that much 777-200ER feedstock available with enough remaining life compared to 777-300ERs. The biggest 777-200ER operators like AA, UA and BA have likely put too many cycles on the airplanes already. The number of remaining airplanes is limited.
 
UA444
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:12 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
There’s no way (I’ll regret saying this later lol) that FX would pay all that $$$ for such a low feedstock of 77Ls as other posters have stated.


The MD-10 program would like to discuss this with you. :stirthepot:

(I know there was already a DC-10 freighter conversion program and the MD-10 program was an additional cockpit upgrade).


The MD-10 conversion program required extensive mods to the DC-10. It was a program launched right before Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas merged and was continued after the merger. FedEx (who turned out to be the only customer) originally planned to have 50 MD-10 conversions, but the program stopped after the 33rd delivery to FedEx.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 02txt.html

FX had at one time 50+ MD-10-10s alone, not including their -30s
 
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:46 pm

UA444 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

The MD-10 program would like to discuss this with you. :stirthepot:

(I know there was already a DC-10 freighter conversion program and the MD-10 program was an additional cockpit upgrade).


The MD-10 conversion program required extensive mods to the DC-10. It was a program launched right before Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas merged and was continued after the merger. FedEx (who turned out to be the only customer) originally planned to have 50 MD-10 conversions, but the program stopped after the 33rd delivery to FedEx.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 02txt.html

FX had at one time 50+ MD-10-10s alone, not including their -30s


My online source wrote the MD-10 program ended at 33 units and that was in error. Hand counting the retired MD-11's with the active ones, it appears that FedEx had around 82 MD-10's in their fleet at one time, or another.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Federal-Express
 
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:48 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?


There actually isn’t that much 777-200ER feedstock available with enough remaining life compared to 777-300ERs. The biggest 777-200ER operators like AA, UA and BA have likely put too many cycles on the airplanes already. The number of remaining airplanes is limited.


That's just plainly untrue.

Cycles won't be a problem. A quick check of N751AN (picked since it is an even 20 years old) shows it's got fewer than 10,000 cycles on it. And only 75,000 hours. We're converting 767s with closer to 20,000 cycles on them and one with over 130,000 hours before it went under the knofe. The 772ER fleet has plenty of life left if a conversion program starts.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:18 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Surely a conversation program for 77Es would be more viable thanks to more feedstock to amortize it over and lower values?


There actually isn’t that much 777-200ER feedstock available with enough remaining life compared to 777-300ERs. The biggest 777-200ER operators like AA, UA and BA have likely put too many cycles on the airplanes already. The number of remaining airplanes is limited.


That's just plainly untrue.

Cycles won't be a problem. A quick check of N751AN (picked since it is an even 20 years old) shows it's got fewer than 10,000 cycles on it. And only 75,000 hours. We're converting 767s with closer to 20,000 cycles on them and one with over 130,000 hours before it went under the knofe. The 772ER fleet has plenty of life left if a conversion program starts.


Perhaps you didn’t see the statement comparing the 777-200ER to 777-300ER. The 777-300ER has available feedstock with more remaining life. By the time AA and BA sell off 777-200ERs, they probably won’t be good feedstock. There are some 777-200ERs on the used market, but not a strong pipeline like the 777-300ER. 777-300ERs also have common engines, which helps.

You are right that airlines have become pretty desperate for 767 feedstock and are converting much older planes than we’d typically see based on historical trends. 15-20 year old airplanes are usually the sweet spot. If we look at launching a 777 freighter conversion program, the 777-300ER conversion program will last over a decade. The 777-200ER feedstock isn’t as good as the 777-300ER.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:06 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

There actually isn’t that much 777-200ER feedstock available with enough remaining life compared to 777-300ERs. The biggest 777-200ER operators like AA, UA and BA have likely put too many cycles on the airplanes already. The number of remaining airplanes is limited.


That's just plainly untrue.

Cycles won't be a problem. A quick check of N751AN (picked since it is an even 20 years old) shows it's got fewer than 10,000 cycles on it. And only 75,000 hours. We're converting 767s with closer to 20,000 cycles on them and one with over 130,000 hours before it went under the knofe. The 772ER fleet has plenty of life left if a conversion program starts.


Perhaps you didn’t see the statement comparing the 777-200ER to 777-300ER. The 777-300ER has available feedstock with more remaining life. By the time AA and BA sell off 777-200ERs, they probably won’t be good feedstock. There are some 777-200ERs on the used market, but not a strong pipeline like the 777-300ER. 777-300ERs also have common engines, which helps.

You are right that airlines have become pretty desperate for 767 feedstock and are converting much older planes than we’d typically see based on historical trends. 15-20 year old airplanes are usually the sweet spot. If we look at launching a 777 freighter conversion program, the 777-300ER conversion program will last over a decade. The 777-200ER feedstock isn’t as good as the 777-300ER.


\What available stock do you speak of? 77Ws are not going to be retired in large numbers anytime soon, sure there have already some that have but the vast majority of the aircraft have plenty of life in them and found new homes very quickly. It's still an extremely economical aircraft and it will be in service for quite a long time. There will be a huge influx in available 77E stock from AA, UA and BA alone when they call it quits on the 77E probably within the next 10 years.
 
Noshow
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:16 pm

Could this conversion mainly be intended to get factory built 777F prices down?
At this moment I'd expect all new wide bodies to be sale priced? But who knows, maybe freighters, especially high performance 777F, are not?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:24 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

That's just plainly untrue.

Cycles won't be a problem. A quick check of N751AN (picked since it is an even 20 years old) shows it's got fewer than 10,000 cycles on it. And only 75,000 hours. We're converting 767s with closer to 20,000 cycles on them and one with over 130,000 hours before it went under the knofe. The 772ER fleet has plenty of life left if a conversion program starts.


Perhaps you didn’t see the statement comparing the 777-200ER to 777-300ER. The 777-300ER has available feedstock with more remaining life. By the time AA and BA sell off 777-200ERs, they probably won’t be good feedstock. There are some 777-200ERs on the used market, but not a strong pipeline like the 777-300ER. 777-300ERs also have common engines, which helps.

You are right that airlines have become pretty desperate for 767 feedstock and are converting much older planes than we’d typically see based on historical trends. 15-20 year old airplanes are usually the sweet spot. If we look at launching a 777 freighter conversion program, the 777-300ER conversion program will last over a decade. The 777-200ER feedstock isn’t as good as the 777-300ER.


\What available stock do you speak of? 77Ws are not going to be retired in large numbers anytime soon, sure there have already some that have but the vast majority of the aircraft have plenty of life in them and found new homes very quickly. It's still an extremely economical aircraft and it will be in service for quite a long time. There will be a huge influx in available 77E stock from AA, UA and BA alone when they call it quits on the 77E probably within the next 10 years.


Emirates is retiring 777-300ERs when they are 12-16 years old and creating strong feedstock. Qatar is retiring all their 777s by 2024. Other airlines like Virgin Australia, Eva, Cathay Pacific, ANA are also retiring or returning some 77Ws to lessors. There is some fantastic feedstock available for 777-300ER freighter conversions. This feedstock has much more useable life than 777-200s. Although Delta has created some good feedstock, the 777-300ER has been the more attractive model for freighter conversion. That’s probably why FedEx would buy the Delta planes for parts.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:28 pm

Noshow wrote:
Could this conversion mainly be intended to get factory built 777F prices down?
At this moment I'd expect all new wide bodies to be sale priced? But who knows, maybe freighters, especially high performance 777F, are not?


It probably gets spare part pricing down.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2824
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:28 pm

ikolkyo wrote:

\What available stock do you speak of? 77Ws are not going to be retired in large numbers anytime soon, sure there have already some that have but the vast majority of the aircraft have plenty of life in them and it's still an extremely economical aircraft. It will be in service for quite a long time. There will be a huge influx in available 77E stock from AA, UA and BA alone when they call it quits on the 77E probably within the next 10 years.



Does it have to be soon though?

As their role is largely superseded by 779s & A35K, the 77Ws will start coming out of service. Just not all at once. A program like this will likely be available over the next few decades and probably is not dependent on huge volumes of stock. If anything, it likely helps to keep a smaller, more regular flow, as these will not be frames that have been sitting idle for long stretches.

While nearly the same argument can be made for the 77E, there are a few more hold-ups. If they do not mod/replace the floor —doable but cost prohibitive and time consuming— the MTOW left will be very similar to what is available from the 77W conversion. That at first appears to be a disadvantage for the 77W conversion until we get to where these are mainly destined for parcel carriers. They will want the extra space to sell more volume with —especially users like Amazon— rather than being more limited by the -200 series main deck.

For any power lifting freight needs, the 77F —and likely 778 in the future— already have that covered.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Although Delta has created some good feedstock, the 777-300ER has been the more attractive model for freighter conversion. That’s probably why FedEx would buy the Delta planes for parts.


And it would hardly be the first time FX has bought planes for parts either.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
ihmcallister
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Re: DELTA 777LR’s to FED EX????

Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:54 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
I saw on airfleets that 3 LR’s the newest 777’s Delta had delivered circa 2009/10 are going to FED EX to be converted to freighters. Is this even possible? I was under the impression there was no freighter conversion program.


Aren't the LR and F very similar? What would make this a challenge?

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B77L

Yes they are. The factory-delivered 777-F is based on the -LR airframe, rather than the -ER. With the 777-300 freighter conversion coming, applying it to the -200LR will be straightforward, like the 767-200/300 was. There are quite a few 777-200LR airframes out there for FedEx to snap up as they become available (Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, Air India, Air Canada, etc.) It would certainly follow how they built up previous fleets.
Last edited by ihmcallister on Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:11 pm

Delta's last six 777-200LRs are all GE powered with the GE 90-110B1 power plant. FedEx's 777s are powered by the GE 90-110B1L power plant. Thus the core engines of the Delta 777's are basically the same engine or power plant and could be upgraded to the later engine that FedEx uses or used for parts along with the rest of the aircraft. FedEx is making a smart move by buying the aircraft. FedEx may buy all six of Delta's GE powered 777s. :old:
Last edited by NWAROOSTER on Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:12 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

Perhaps you didn’t see the statement comparing the 777-200ER to 777-300ER. The 777-300ER has available feedstock with more remaining life. By the time AA and BA sell off 777-200ERs, they probably won’t be good feedstock. There are some 777-200ERs on the used market, but not a strong pipeline like the 777-300ER. 777-300ERs also have common engines, which helps.

You are right that airlines have become pretty desperate for 767 feedstock and are converting much older planes than we’d typically see based on historical trends. 15-20 year old airplanes are usually the sweet spot. If we look at launching a 777 freighter conversion program, the 777-300ER conversion program will last over a decade. The 777-200ER feedstock isn’t as good as the 777-300ER.


\What available stock do you speak of? 77Ws are not going to be retired in large numbers anytime soon, sure there have already some that have but the vast majority of the aircraft have plenty of life in them and found new homes very quickly. It's still an extremely economical aircraft and it will be in service for quite a long time. There will be a huge influx in available 77E stock from AA, UA and BA alone when they call it quits on the 77E probably within the next 10 years.


Emirates is retiring 777-300ERs when they are 12-16 years old and creating strong feedstock. Qatar is retiring all their 777s by 2024. Other airlines like Virgin Australia, Eva, Cathay Pacific, ANA are also retiring or returning some 77Ws to lessors. There is some fantastic feedstock available for 777-300ER freighter conversions. This feedstock has much more useable life than 777-200s. Although Delta has created some good feedstock, the 777-300ER has been the more attractive model for freighter conversion. That’s probably why FedEx would buy the Delta planes for parts.


The VA frames will most for sure see conversion, the small cargo doors on those are not very attractive. However, I struggle to see mass retirement of 77Ws if(when) air travel ramps back up to Pre-Covid times. It's already starting ramp up extremely quickly and a lot of these calls for retirement were made when demand was its absolute worse. Also I have seen anything about that states EVA and CX are returning any 77Ws, plus with the delay of the arrival of 777Xs I think some of the previously announced 77W retirement plans get altered. Time will tell, but I question the amount stock in the near future that you're extremely confident about. Especially since there are airlines like BA that would probably pick up some second hand 77Ws.
 
ihmcallister
Posts: 28
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:18 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

\What available stock do you speak of? 77Ws are not going to be retired in large numbers anytime soon, sure there have already some that have but the vast majority of the aircraft have plenty of life in them and it's still an extremely economical aircraft. It will be in service for quite a long time. There will be a huge influx in available 77E stock from AA, UA and BA alone when they call it quits on the 77E probably within the next 10 years.



Does it have to be soon though?

As their role is largely superseded by 779s & A35K, the 77Ws will start coming out of service. Just not all at once. A program like this will likely be available over the next few decades and probably is not dependent on huge volumes of stock. If anything, it likely helps to keep a smaller, more regular flow, as these will not be frames that have been sitting idle for long stretches.

While nearly the same argument can be made for the 77E, there are a few more hold-ups. If they do not mod/replace the floor —doable but cost prohibitive and time consuming— the MTOW left will be very similar to what is available from the 77W conversion. That at first appears to be a disadvantage for the 77W conversion until we get to where these are mainly destined for parcel carriers. They will want the extra space to sell more volume with —especially users like Amazon— rather than being more limited by the -200 series main deck.

For any power lifting freight needs, the 77F —and likely 778 in the future— already have that covered.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Although Delta has created some good feedstock, the 777-300ER has been the more attractive model for freighter conversion. That’s probably why FedEx would buy the Delta planes for parts.


And it would hardly be the first time FX has bought planes for parts either.


The factory-built 777-F is based on the -200LR, not the -200ER. Adding ex-airline 777-200LR's, either for parts or conversion would be a very FedEx-like move.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:44 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Delta's last six 777-200LRs are all GE powered with the GE 90-110B1 power plant. FedEx's 777s are powered by the GE 90-110B1L power plant. Thus the core engines of the Delta 777's are basically the same engine or power plant and could be upgraded to the later engine that FedEx uses or used for parts along with the rest of the aircraft. FedEx is making a smart move by buying the aircraft. FedEx may buy all six of Delta's GE powered 777s. :old:


All 777-200LRs are GE powered, so DL had 10.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:07 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Perhaps you didn’t see the statement comparing the 777-200ER to 777-300ER. The 777-300ER has available feedstock with more remaining life. By the time AA and BA sell off 777-200ERs, they probably won’t be good feedstock.

Repeating it, isn't going to make it any less inaccurate than the first time you said it.

Those 77Es have relatively less cycles/hours than many of the former widebodies that FX/5X have garnered in the recent decades, and there's a higher number of them still potentially available than of all MD11s ever built.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DenverTed
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:29 pm

If they did a 772ER freighter conversion, would they have to pick an engine? Which would be the top pick, RR?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Perhaps you didn’t see the statement comparing the 777-200ER to 777-300ER. The 777-300ER has available feedstock with more remaining life. By the time AA and BA sell off 777-200ERs, they probably won’t be good feedstock.

Repeating it, isn't going to make it any less inaccurate than the first time you said it.

Those 77Es have relatively less cycles/hours than many of the former widebodies that FX/5X have garnered in the recent decades, and there's a higher number of them still potentially available than of all MD11s ever built.


You don’t have to agree if you don’t want to, although the fact that there is a 777-300ER freighter conversion program and no 777-200 freighter conversion program should provide some evidence.

https://blog.geaviation.com/product/goi ... -to-cargo/

But early this summer, one specimen arrived at an Israeli airfield set for a dramatic transformation into an air cargo freighter. The plane is a prototype for a program to convert 15 of the giant planes into a cargo configuration that will each be able to carry 100 tons of goods around the globe. As the 777-300ER replaced the iconic four-engine 747 jumbo jet for passenger airlines, the 777-300ERSF — with the “SF” indicating “special freighter” — is set to bring the same twin-engine efficiencies to cargo operators.


The Delta planes are unlikely to head to freighter conversion unlike the former Emirates 77W currently being converted
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:00 pm

DenverTed wrote:
If they did a 772ER freighter conversion, would they have to pick an engine?

If they get enough of them, no.
Their 757s, as an example, have multiple engine providers.


DenverTed wrote:
Which would be the top pick, RR?

Probably, as DL and SQ has RRs available now; BA, AA, LY, etc will have plenty in the relatively near term.

Plenty of GEs to go around for such a potential program too though, from BA, AF, KL, AZ, etc.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Are Delta's 777LRs going to FedEx?

Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:04 pm

DenverTed wrote:
If they did a 772ER freighter conversion, would they have to pick an engine? Which would be the top pick, RR?


I don’t know, but historically Boeing has been more interested in converting GE and Pratt powered airplanes than Rolls Royce. For example Boeing only converts Pratt and Ge powered 767s. There is no 777-200 freighter conversion program and even if one gets launched we don’t know if they would do RR powered 777s like what Delta has
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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