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dtwtosomewhere
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:53 am

I think DL is allowing the ULCC an opening here. DL made huge cuts while some of the ULCC are almost back to 2019 levels while continuing to add. DL management looked for the savings and are now getting burned for not being able to deliver.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:03 am

NWAESC wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Since Delta now has pilots who are not current what was the point of the deal? Was it simply for the headlines Delta avoids involuntary furloughs and the good press those headlines generated?



Pretty much, but not before holding layoffs over the heads of the (unionized) pilots as an example for other workgroups.



The large UNA category was created as a byproduct of the no furlough language in the first CARES act. DL was not allowed to furlough any employees, in addition- the pilot contract doesn’t allow any pilots to be furloughed until every pilot junior to a pilot is also furloughed. To prepare for a mass furlough at the end of CARES1, they started pushing pilots into the UNA category. The UNA category was basically a holding pen to put a pilot that was not needed on their former equipment in to, while the company kept a more needed, but junior pilot, in that pilots category until they too could be furloughed. The UNA category is officially paid min monthly guarantee at the lowest FO pay rate (in this case, 717 FO at that pilots longevity). At the end of CARES1, DL came to an agreement with ALPA to not furlough in exchange for other cost savings. One of the cost savings was reducing the monthly guarantee of the UNA category while allowing the UNAs to seek other employment in addition to the DL pay.
 
catiii
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:17 am

[*]
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Why? Most airlines have been operating at a fraction of peak pandemic schedule. Most airlines have had flight and inflight on LTO. They have to requal. You don’t just turn the airline on again.
 
umichman
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:03 am

spinotter wrote:
umichman wrote:
The 75 flights represent 3% of their flights. While there will be cases of people forced to sit together on some flights, that's far from enough cancellations to force every flight to be full. The situation around Thanksgiving was far more dramatic with more than 500 flights being cancelled.


But with modern computer staffing programs why are even 3% of the Delta flights canceled with little advance notice? I am wondering about their management now!


As I speculated earlier, they could have had a number of pilots call in sick. Computer staffing programs aren't going to handle that very well. But I'm willing to blame management if it means Ed Bastian goes :)
Last edited by umichman on Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:06 am

3 holiday disasters in a row... Wow... How did they manage that?
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:06 am

catiii wrote:
[*]
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Why? Most airlines have been operating at a fraction of peak pandemic schedule. Most airlines have had flight and inflight on LTO. They have to requal. You don’t just turn the airline on again.

I think the issue people have is that taxpayers paid almost all personnel costs for airlines for the last 12 months to be able to “just turn the airline on again” for the recovery and save airlines from having to furlough and displace a bunch of pilots, which would take years to recover from from a training standpoint. Yet, here we are, understaffed, despite the taxpayers covering payroll. The problem is, airlines had to make decisions for survival and PSP came after the fact each time it was doled out. If airline mgmt and unions knew for sure taxpayers would fund what they ended up funding, we likely wouldn’t have seen near as many displacements and would have seen more effort to keep people current and qualified in their airframe. I don’t necessarily fault delta for all of that, but having their fleet as complex as they do with as many pilot groups as they had entering the pandemic (even still to this day minus the maddog and triple), as well as their decision to furlough and displace a lot (and put it into motion, until PSP saved the pilots who were left UNA), and their decision to continue to cap flight loads, all are part of how they put themselves into a position to not be able to fully handle the recovery, and that is on them. I doubt they will be the only ones with issues though if this recovery in travel continues. This summer should be quite interesting.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:58 am

The truth is, the mass cancelations at Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter could have and should have been prevented. A good many frontline pilots called this exact scenario playing out, and we're likely not out the woods this summer either. Every action concerning pilot headcount from April 2020 - January 2021 has been either backwards or illogical from a flight operations perspective. *I'll provide some context below, sorry for the length.

Delta pilots have long had a provision in their contract called Special Incentive Lines (SILs). These are essentially 1-month at a time voluntary paid leaves, with the amount of pay at the discretion of Delta. SILs exist as a win-win for both parties. Pilots who would like a paid break can get one, & Delta can reduce payroll during periods of overstaffing. This exists at most major airlines. At peak crisis of March 2020, ALPA and Delta met on ways to help cash burn. In short order, Delta and ALPA agreed to a LOA, which would offer SILs starting in May and beyond at 55 hours of pay a month. A bid was proffered to pilots. Then, early in April, Delta management shifted course, and canceled their SIL offering. The stated reason was that "didn't feel right" to offer paid LOAs to pilots while other employees were taking unpaid leaves at high numbers. (Nevermind that DL was promoting that unemployment compensation would be higher for most of those doing this, and it would help stretch out the CARES1 money). Pilots were encouraged to take unpaid LOAs, and hardly any did. Unemployment wouldn't cover nearly as much of a typical pilot salary, especially CAs. Junior FOs worried if they took voluntary leaves + unemployment, they could later be furloughed with unemployment exhausted. So for all of Summer 2020, all pilots were getting full pay, with miniscule numbers of leaves. SILs would have reduced payroll, and kept pilots ready to return to flying quickly without inducing training.

In May 2020, an enormous bid was given to pilots that would displace a large number of pilots, especially the very senior (all 777, WBs). This would trigger a waterfall of cascading displacements, and place the most junior 2,558 pilots into Unassigned status (UNA), a quasi furlough placeholder. The result was putting a large share of pilots into undesired aircraft and bases. Pilots were upset that an early retirement wasn't offered BEFORE reshuffling everyone. Why not reduce headcount of those at the top first? Doing it this way would clearly create much more unnecessary training. In July 2020, early retirement offered, ~2200 pilots accept, and 1800 leave in September. Oct 2020, a new bid comes out to replace retirements, and lots of pilots try to get back where they were before they got displaced. Announce 1,941 furloughs for Oct 1, deferred later to Nov 1. Oct 31st, 12 hours prior to furlough, deferred again to Nov 28th. Thanksgiving meltdown for lack of active pilots (due to having displaced thousands in May bid, and placing 2,558 into UNA). Deal reached after Thanksgiving to keep all would-be furloughees, but in a 30-hour pay month and let them sit on the sidelines. December 2020, CARES II passes, so these same UNA pilots sit at home waiting to be recalled with full pay. Christmas meltdown, for the exact same reason as Thanksgiving. A220 fleet had high number of jr FOs, so they had to park a good share of the fleet, still ongoing. By Feb 2021, announce all pilots needed back on the line ASAP, but it will take a until the end of summer, at which point hiring will likely begin in mass. Easter meltdown, same reasons as the other meltdowns. Looking at summer, the staffing situation will remain.

After the May 2020 displacrment bid, it was clear if demand came back within a year or 2, we'd be short and stuck with a training logjam. So, why did Delta do it this way? Logic would say offer early retirement to set a new permanent headcount, then offer SILs. Then, with this new active headcount, displace to what's needed. If demand comes back, offer less or no paid LOAs. That's the order of what most US airlines did.

This was all about optics to Flight Attendants, Ramp Agents and Mechanics. All of which don't have the staffing and training realities that pilots have. But the perception of pilots keeping their jobs, getting paid leaves etc, would create a perception that non- union work groups weren't given as much as the uniozed workgroup. Prior to COVID, there was rising pressure to unionize FAs (uniform fiasco) and Ramp (Video games & football posters anyone? ). Leadership wasn't willing to give them similar deals in COVID, especially as they were getting high numbers of frontline workers to sit at home and let Delta keep their earmarked CARES grant money. So, the pilot staffing priority changed from a short term cashburn while keeping nimble for recovery, to investing to win long term labor relations with other workgroups.
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
umichman
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:11 am

Well, it looks like we need to start at the top and Ed Bastian needs to go.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:20 am

cactusjuba - thanks for writing that out. I was going to try to articulate some of what is going on but you got alot of that covered in your post.
To be clear, I'm not defending DL, as this is rediculous, but the situation is actually pretty complex and has been compounded by a lot of the decisions they have made over the past year. Its not a simple matter as some may thing. The blame entirely falls on DL leadership, all the way to the top of the house. Frankly, I think a lot of people over the past 12 months are getting sick and tired of DL and all the various crap they've done, how they've handled their recovery to the pandemic terribly, and frankly a lot would love to continue to see them fall on their face if it means that Ed B. and a sub-set of other characters at the top of the house become persona non-grata and get kicked to the curb.

This situation was entirely self-inflicted by DL by many of the reasons above

The 777 retirement, which in isolation, you can argue made sense at the time, kicked off a massive displacement, of high-seniority pilots. Then add in how DL did the massive displacement last spring that closed a whole bunch of category/bases and it just created a massive amount of training events, pilots that were unable to fly since they hadn't been trained, and then pilots that needed to requal due to the lack of flying (particularly in certain WB fleets). The MD80/90 retirment made obvious sense, but again there was a sub-set of super high senioirty, ATL-based pilots that were sitting in that category that also kicked off a lot of displacements. Plus closing senior categories (7ER in DTW, MSP, SLC; CVG 73N). Then on top of that the A220 is highly training constrained, and could barely keep up with training even before all the displacements, and while they are taking delivery of all these new A220s, hence why they've had to park 8-10 A221s in storage since they don't have enough pilots trained to fly all of them.

Then add-in that they've been attempting to cover a portion of the increased flying in open-time instead of assigned to a line, then add-in holiday weekend vacation, and that there is less than normal taking of additional flying in open time since pilots would rather not voluntarily do additional flying and what you see is what you got.

DL arguably played this all to conservative, anticipating a much longer recovery, and also bet the farm at trying to be a bit too cute with all the restructuring they thought they could accomplish.

Sooner or later, some people at the top of the house need to go.....
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:26 am

Again, DL is 3 or 3 in failing to deliver over peak holidays. The airline that shouted from the mountaintops about "operational reliability" and still has posters in jetbridges about "canceling cancelations".

DL leadership needs to be cancelled.

I have zero faith that DL won't meltdown again at Memorial Day weekend, 4th of July week, and Labor Day weekend..

'come on man, you guys are better than this.....
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:28 am

umichman wrote:
Well, it looks like we need to start at the top and Ed Bastian needs to go.


It was fairly unlikely he was staying much past this year anyway. The recent events might accelerate that departure
 
jayunited
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:15 am

Web500sjc wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Since Delta now has pilots who are not current what was the point of the deal? Was it simply for the headlines Delta avoids involuntary furloughs and the good press those headlines generated?



Pretty much, but not before holding layoffs over the heads of the (unionized) pilots as an example for other workgroups.



The large UNA category was created as a byproduct of the no furlough language in the first CARES act. DL was not allowed to furlough any employees, in addition- the pilot contract doesn’t allow any pilots to be furloughed until every pilot junior to a pilot is also furloughed. To prepare for a mass furlough at the end of CARES1, they started pushing pilots into the UNA category. The UNA category was basically a holding pen to put a pilot that was not needed on their former equipment in to, while the company kept a more needed, but junior pilot, in that pilots category until they too could be furloughed. The UNA category is officially paid min monthly guarantee at the lowest FO pay rate (in this case, 717 FO at that pilots longevity). At the end of CARES1, DL came to an agreement with ALPA to not furlough in exchange for other cost savings. One of the cost savings was reducing the monthly guarantee of the UNA category while allowing the UNAs to seek other employment in addition to the DL pay.



You speak of cost savings but I think people are left wondering how much did Delta really save seeing that they now have a a whole slew of pilots who are no longer current.

For a Delta Pilot I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this was an okay (not great) but okay deal. They continued to be paid by Delta at the agreed upon minimum monthly rate and they could seek other employment. But for Delta Airlines this deal hasn't save them a dime in the long run because training cost to get those pilots current once again will wipe out any potential savings.

I appreciate your explaination but it really does look like this agreement was more smoke and mirrors than anything substantive that would help Delta Airlines as this industry enters the recovery phase.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:19 am

nwadeicer wrote:
They didn't expect traffic to pick up as fast as it has.


Maybe they should have gotten their news from a broader variety of sources. What was happening, and what was going to happen, was obvious to some of us.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:59 am

Cactusjuba wrote:

This was all about optics to Flight Attendants, Ramp Agents and Mechanics. All of which don't have the staffing and training realities that pilots have. But the perception of pilots keeping their jobs, getting paid leaves etc, would create a perception that non- union work groups weren't given as much as the uniozed workgroup. Prior to COVID, there was rising pressure to unionize FAs (uniform fiasco) and Ramp (Video games & football posters anyone? ). Leadership wasn't willing to give them similar deals in COVID, especially as they were getting high numbers of frontline workers to sit at home and let Delta keep their earmarked CARES grant money. So, the pilot staffing priority changed from a short term cashburn while keeping nimble for recovery, to investing to win long term labor relations with other workgroups.


^1000% this^

For people to truly understand the game theory behind the moves DL has made over the last 12-15 mos., you first need to understand this.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:47 am

jayunited wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
NWAESC wrote:


Pretty much, but not before holding layoffs over the heads of the (unionized) pilots as an example for other workgroups.



The large UNA category was created as a byproduct of the no furlough language in the first CARES act. DL was not allowed to furlough any employees, in addition- the pilot contract doesn’t allow any pilots to be furloughed until every pilot junior to a pilot is also furloughed. To prepare for a mass furlough at the end of CARES1, they started pushing pilots into the UNA category. The UNA category was basically a holding pen to put a pilot that was not needed on their former equipment in to, while the company kept a more needed, but junior pilot, in that pilots category until they too could be furloughed. The UNA category is officially paid min monthly guarantee at the lowest FO pay rate (in this case, 717 FO at that pilots longevity). At the end of CARES1, DL came to an agreement with ALPA to not furlough in exchange for other cost savings. One of the cost savings was reducing the monthly guarantee of the UNA category while allowing the UNAs to seek other employment in addition to the DL pay.



You speak of cost savings but I think people are left wondering how much did Delta really save seeing that they now have a a whole slew of pilots who are no longer current.

For a Delta Pilot I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this was an okay (not great) but okay deal. They continued to be paid by Delta at the agreed upon minimum monthly rate and they could seek other employment. But for Delta Airlines this deal hasn't save them a dime in the long run because training cost to get those pilots current once again will wipe out any potential savings.

I appreciate your explaination but it really does look like this agreement was more smoke and mirrors than anything substantive that would help Delta Airlines as this industry enters the recovery phase.



I was just trying to explain why DL has a large group of pilots who are not trained on any aircraft. We can agree- the cost savings afforded by a UNA group (or furlough)are being wiped away with ever operational melt down.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:58 am

NWAESC wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Since Delta now has pilots who are not current what was the point of the deal? Was it simply for the headlines Delta avoids involuntary furloughs and the good press those headlines generated?



Pretty much, but not before holding layoffs over the heads of the (unionized) pilots as an example for other workgroups.


Well yes, but DL's avoiding use of furloughs wasn't something that UA, AA, AS, Hawaiian, Spirit or Allegiant managed to achieve. They all used involuntary layoffs.

It's common to ask for the head of the CEO - very European, really, demonstrating that employees just refuse to be led - but this is fundamentally a technical issue from the mismatch of available pilots vs. type hours called for by the marketing schedule. Mix in some sick days or fewer pilots willing to pick up trips over a holiday and this is what you get. Airlines like to fly a little close to the sun in chasing revenue - think of the practices of RM (so many fare rules and fare buckets to practice legal price discrimination) and oversales.

If you want to fire the CEO of every carrier than has cancelled a hundred flights due to its own failures you won't have any major carrier CEOs left.

AA MD-80 wiring bundles, US/HP res system software integration, UA router connectivity, WN missed hydraulic systems inspections...
 
jayunited
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
[
Well yes, but DL's avoiding use of furloughs wasn't something that UA, AA, AS, Hawaiian, Spirit or Allegiant managed to achieve. They all used involuntary layoffs.

It's common to ask for the head of the CEO - very European, really, demonstrating that employees just refuse to be led - but this is fundamentally a technical issue from the mismatch of available pilots vs. type hours called for by the marketing schedule. Mix in some sick days or fewer pilots willing to pick up trips over a holiday and this is what you get. Airlines like to fly a little close to the sun in chasing revenue - think of the practices of RM (so many fare rules and fare buckets to practice legal price discrimination) and oversales.

If you want to fire the CEO of every carrier than has cancelled a hundred flights due to its own failures you won't have any major carrier CEOs left.

AA MD-80 wiring bundles, US/HP res system software integration, UA router connectivity, WN missed hydraulic systems inspections...



Your post sums sums up the entire problem and I do appreciate you trying to muddy the waters with all the additional fluff.

Delta paid their pilots to sit at home but decided not to keep them current. If you are going to keep your pilots and pay them why not then spring for the additional cost and keep them current? Whereas United (can't speak for other carriers) decided it was cost effective to keep its pilots and keep them current and furlough other employee groups. As a result of CARES act 2 furloughed United employees were brought back starting in December and United has managed to keep its pilots current.

So while Delta (and you) are gloating over the fact they avoided involuntary furloughs the decision to not keep their pilots current but instead keep other work groups is proving to be costly. Your post proves the point that Delta's decision was at least partially based off them wanting to avoid the negative headlines both American and United endured when those airlines furloughed thousands of employees.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 206
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

Well yes, but DL's avoiding use of furloughs wasn't something that UA, AA, AS, Hawaiian, Spirit or Allegiant managed to achieve. They all used involuntary layoffs.

It's common to ask for the head of the CEO - very European, really, demonstrating that employees just refuse to be led - but this is fundamentally a technical issue from the mismatch of available pilots vs. type hours called for by the marketing schedule. Mix in some sick days or fewer pilots willing to pick up trips over a holiday and this is what you get. Airlines like to fly a little close to the sun in chasing revenue - think of the practices of RM (so many fare rules and fare buckets to practice legal price discrimination) and oversales.

If you want to fire the CEO of every carrier than has cancelled a hundred flights due to its own failures you won't have any major carrier CEOs left.

AA MD-80 wiring bundles, US/HP res system software integration, UA router connectivity, WN missed hydraulic systems inspections...


Spirit did not involuntary furlough any employees, and certainly no pilots. Nor, to my knowledge did Allegiant, despite threats.

In the specific case of Spirit, their pilot union and COO/CEO came to an agreement in less than three days to offer no-work incentive lines and other contract changes to achieve cost savings and prevent furloughs. As such, my friends at NK speak highly of their management's flexibility and desire to run an operationally efficient and profitable airline. My friends at Delta are milking military leave for all its worth, and few if any have any faith in Bastian doing anything positive for the company.

To say "employees just refuse to be led" is the standard airline management mantra for consistent failures from management to do basic management tasks, while hoping some level of employee flexibility will carry the day when management skills, planning and execution consistently fail.
 
LNCS0930
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:36 pm

wjcandee wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:
They didn't expect traffic to pick up as fast as it has.


Maybe they should have gotten their news from a broader variety of sources. What was happening, and what was going to happen, was obvious to some of us.


Many people were saying it would pick up fast enough the carriers would be caught by surprise. They’d have been better off preparing too early as it was inevitably going to come back eventually at some stage this year anyway
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:02 pm

I think maybe this is a bit overblown in terms of the level of severity of the actual incident. Did something unacceptable happen operationally due to the unintended-but-foreseeable consequences of some management decisions? Absolutely.

Did DL buy a certain line about likely-disease-trajectories that was overblown, and did DL discount the spirit, resolve and courage of its countrymen? Absolutely. (Although I will say that Bastian's political maneuvering the last few days just kept DL from being a target of the media over this incident -- notice that? Nobody's mentioning it because he was a good boy.)

Was this incident limited to relatively-few flights and days? Yes, it was. It was limited to Sunday in terms of cancellations, and as far as middle seats sometimes being used, my reaction is that I hope people were given the opportunity to reschedule for another day at no penalty and, if so, then they're free to choose.

Otherwise, I have been in ATL in thunderstorms that have caused more disruption than this event -- and I have the hotel vouchers to prove it.

There have been 4 cancellations today at ATL -- all of them on "flexible, well-managed" Spirit.
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
trueblew
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:02 pm

32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Total and absolute mismanagement. This is not the Delta of years past. I am embarrassed for the front-line workers who are dealing with the major screw-ups of management.

As far as the surprise middle-seat unblocking goes, when a business like Delta falsely hypes up the supposed enhanced safety of middle seat blocking and charges a premium to promise to deliver that.... and then DOESN'T.... well, that's a problem. Massive black eye for Delta, and rightly so. They've jettisoned their integrity due to a third holiday staffing meltdown in six months. Which other airlines have had holiday meltdowns lately? Much less three. Ed Bastian should be dragged in front of a congressional committee (after all they've taken billions from the government lately) to answer for their mismanagement, but that of course won't happen.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:24 pm

wjcandee wrote:

Was this incident limited to relatively-few flights and days? Yes, it was. It was limited to Sunday in terms of cancellations, and as far as middle seats sometimes being used, my reaction is that I hope people were given the opportunity to reschedule for another day at no penalty and, if so, then they're free to choose.

Otherwise, I have been in ATL in thunderstorms that have caused more disruption than this event -- and I have the hotel vouchers to prove it.

There have been 4 cancellations today at ATL -- all of them on "flexible, well-managed" Spirit.


Well, Spirit is running a consistently improving product. Its not 100%. I doubt it will be as long as they both try to connect the dots and add new cities. I think at some point they will have to choose. That said, NK 3Q20 Completion factor was 99.8% and you're bringing your personal anecdote.

In this case, the singular of anecdote isn't data.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:26 pm

trueblew wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Total and absolute mismanagement. This is not the Delta of years past. I am embarrassed for the front-line workers who are dealing with the major screw-ups of management.

As far as the surprise middle-seat unblocking goes, when a business like Delta falsely hypes up the supposed enhanced safety of middle seat blocking and charges a premium to promise to deliver that.... and then DOESN'T.... well, that's a problem. Massive black eye for Delta, and rightly so. They've jettisoned their integrity due to a third holiday staffing meltdown in six months. Which other airlines have had holiday meltdowns lately? Much less three. Ed Bastian should be dragged in front of a congressional committee (after all they've taken billions from the government lately) to answer for their mismanagement, but that of course won't happen.

How come airlines furloughed any crew If all the salaries got bailed out anyways? Now they are going to have to retrain everyone AGAIN less than a year later
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:37 pm

32andBelow wrote:
trueblew wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Total and absolute mismanagement. This is not the Delta of years past. I am embarrassed for the front-line workers who are dealing with the major screw-ups of management.

As far as the surprise middle-seat unblocking goes, when a business like Delta falsely hypes up the supposed enhanced safety of middle seat blocking and charges a premium to promise to deliver that.... and then DOESN'T.... well, that's a problem. Massive black eye for Delta, and rightly so. They've jettisoned their integrity due to a third holiday staffing meltdown in six months. Which other airlines have had holiday meltdowns lately? Much less three. Ed Bastian should be dragged in front of a congressional committee (after all they've taken billions from the government lately) to answer for their mismanagement, but that of course won't happen.

How come airlines furloughed any crew If all the salaries got bailed out anyways? Now they are going to have to retrain everyone AGAIN less than a year later

Because airlines didn’t get payroll support to cover wages until after plans had to be made and executed. And each of the 3 times it was fairly temporary. They couldn’t make business decisions based on hope (more PSP and/or recovery). It was uncharted waters with the lack of revenue. But, Delta was a bit too aggressive with their displacements and furlough notices/UNA though in hindsight.

Edited to add: it wasn’t just DL. AA has guys on furlough. When PSP was approved, they m technically got paid instead of being furloughed, but they weren’t/aren’t flying and will have to requal.
Last edited by JoseSalazar on Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jetport
Posts: 211
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:38 pm

I received an email about a flight change in May this morning. Not the reschedule I want (departs 7 hours earlier) and can't change online. I am Gold Medallion and have a 1.5 hour call back time. Wonder how long non-status customers have to wait? Delta appears to be an operational disaster right now. They apparently did not plan at all for the possibility of a quick travel rebound this Spring/Summer.
 
SELMER40
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:50 pm

Would Richard A. have allowed all these issues? I do not believe he would.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
Alias1024
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:55 pm

jayunited wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
[
Well yes, but DL's avoiding use of furloughs wasn't something that UA, AA, AS, Hawaiian, Spirit or Allegiant managed to achieve. They all used involuntary layoffs.

It's common to ask for the head of the CEO - very European, really, demonstrating that employees just refuse to be led - but this is fundamentally a technical issue from the mismatch of available pilots vs. type hours called for by the marketing schedule. Mix in some sick days or fewer pilots willing to pick up trips over a holiday and this is what you get. Airlines like to fly a little close to the sun in chasing revenue - think of the practices of RM (so many fare rules and fare buckets to practice legal price discrimination) and oversales.

If you want to fire the CEO of every carrier than has cancelled a hundred flights due to its own failures you won't have any major carrier CEOs left.

AA MD-80 wiring bundles, US/HP res system software integration, UA router connectivity, WN missed hydraulic systems inspections...



Your post sums sums up the entire problem and I do appreciate you trying to muddy the waters with all the additional fluff.

Delta paid their pilots to sit at home but decided not to keep them current. If you are going to keep your pilots and pay them why not then spring for the additional cost and keep them current? Whereas United (can't speak for other carriers) decided it was cost effective to keep its pilots and keep them current and furlough other employee groups. As a result of CARES act 2 furloughed United employees were brought back starting in December and United has managed to keep its pilots current.

So while Delta (and you) are gloating over the fact they avoided involuntary furloughs the decision to not keep their pilots current but instead keep other work groups is proving to be costly. Your post proves the point that Delta's decision was at least partially based off them wanting to avoid the negative headlines both American and United endured when those airlines furloughed thousands of employees.


Delta had two factors that made it more appealing to not keep the UNA pilots current that would largely not have applied at United.

1) Many of the UNA pilots were on the MD88/90 fleet and would have required training for any fleet. Not the majority, but probably a few hundred.

2) The pay scale difference. At United the smallest aircraft from a pay standpoint is the A320/737 pay band. At Delta it is the 717. A structure similar to Delta's UNA scenario saves United very little money versus keeping the pilots active at minimum guarantee since the vast majority are on the A320/737 fleets and therefore already at the lowest pay scale. At Delta the majority were in higher paying fleets than the 717. Moving an A320, 737, or 757/767 first officer to UNA saved the company $1,000+ per month per pilot when you add in 401k contributions and payroll taxes.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2861
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:02 pm

32andBelow wrote:
trueblew wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Total and absolute mismanagement. This is not the Delta of years past. I am embarrassed for the front-line workers who are dealing with the major screw-ups of management.

As far as the surprise middle-seat unblocking goes, when a business like Delta falsely hypes up the supposed enhanced safety of middle seat blocking and charges a premium to promise to deliver that.... and then DOESN'T.... well, that's a problem. Massive black eye for Delta, and rightly so. They've jettisoned their integrity due to a third holiday staffing meltdown in six months. Which other airlines have had holiday meltdowns lately? Much less three. Ed Bastian should be dragged in front of a congressional committee (after all they've taken billions from the government lately) to answer for their mismanagement, but that of course won't happen.

How come airlines furloughed any crew If all the salaries got bailed out anyways? Now they are going to have to retrain everyone AGAIN less than a year later


CARES/PSP didn't cover 100% of salaries and furloughs were only done during the non-covered periods between the first and second round.

For everyone saying "oh just keep them trained", there are limited opportunities to do so. Sim time for qualification is not just endless, there are only so many sims and only so many instructors available. Even if you get them through sim time, the 100 hours in the first 90 days is a challenge if you don't have enough lines to support that, it isn't like you can just keep pulling pilots off trips and stick in a new CA/FO instead (without sending costs through the roof). That isn't unique to DL or to any other carrier, it is an industry-wide issue.

Where DL failed is in the failure to meet the requirements for the published schedule (not once, not twice but three times mind you). Crew planning gives network planning a "crew max" representing the max number of block hours that can be flown for a given day/period and network planning has to abide by that. Crew planning at that point has the responsibility once the schedule is live to ensure that their bid is best optimized for it and adequate reserves are available to cover the operation. A failure to put out a bid that covers the flying requirements would be beyond absurd, particularly after you just had two previous holiday struggles for the same issue when no other carriers had the same problem. Yesterday was a clear sunny day in most of the country so reserve usage due to weather was minimal and yet DL still managed to cancel 70 flights and a have a few hundred delays related to crew - no other airline had that issue.

Ultimately this is a crew planning failure again. Based on the numbers, it's pretty clear they were short around 80-90 crews yesterday after exhausting all reserves. Assuming slightly increased reserve staffing for the holiday period, my best guess would indicate they were short about 230-270 total crews from where they needed to be to still have reserves left over at the end of the day. That is 460-540 pilots (assuming 50/50 split between CA and FO) that simply weren't ready or scheduled or whatever the reason was. Can't cover up for that and DL rightfully deserves flak for it, just as every other carrier does for their preventable large operation meltdowns.

Being friends with some DL pilots that have been UNA for months, I don't have faith they will be ready for Memorial Day just due to the rate their training is progressing at. Their training seems notably slower progressing than every other carrier. Is DL short ground/sim instructors? If so that would explain a good portion of their slower progress.
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NWAESC
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:11 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:

If you want to fire the CEO of every carrier than has cancelled a hundred flights due to its own failures you won't have any major carrier CEOs left.

AA MD-80 wiring bundles, US/HP res system software integration, UA router connectivity, WN missed hydraulic systems inspections...


I'm not sure why you quoted me here, but I'm not part of the chorus calling for Bastain to resign. I was pointing out that the company repeatedly told employees that every non-union employee was "safe," while making sure to note that DALPA members were very likely going to get furloughed because of their pesky collective bargaining agreements.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
COflyerBOS
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:18 pm

Flew DTW-LAX. Paid for first because only reason I traveled was covid funeral. They seated me next to a woman who was not happy (nor was I but I don’t take frustrations out on FA). FA asked everyone in first if they minded being seated next to someone. Everyone said “yes.” I said I had no problem going in back but the back was full. In the end a guy in 1D said yes when offered miles. Only reason I had booked DL was the social distancing seating policy. Please don’t at me with it’s the flu. Just buried my brother.
 
birdup
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:40 pm

COflyerBOS wrote:
Flew DTW-LAX. Paid for first because only reason I traveled was covid funeral. They seated me next to a woman who was not happy (nor was I but I don’t take frustrations out on FA). FA asked everyone in first if they minded being seated next to someone. Everyone said “yes.” I said I had no problem going in back but the back was full. In the end a guy in 1D said yes when offered miles. Only reason I had booked DL was the social distancing seating policy. Please don’t at me with it’s the flu. Just buried my brother.


That’s rough. So sorry for your loss.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:56 pm

alasizon wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
trueblew wrote:

Total and absolute mismanagement. This is not the Delta of years past. I am embarrassed for the front-line workers who are dealing with the major screw-ups of management.

As far as the surprise middle-seat unblocking goes, when a business like Delta falsely hypes up the supposed enhanced safety of middle seat blocking and charges a premium to promise to deliver that.... and then DOESN'T.... well, that's a problem. Massive black eye for Delta, and rightly so. They've jettisoned their integrity due to a third holiday staffing meltdown in six months. Which other airlines have had holiday meltdowns lately? Much less three. Ed Bastian should be dragged in front of a congressional committee (after all they've taken billions from the government lately) to answer for their mismanagement, but that of course won't happen.

How come airlines furloughed any crew If all the salaries got bailed out anyways? Now they are going to have to retrain everyone AGAIN less than a year later


CARES/PSP didn't cover 100% of salaries and furloughs were only done during the non-covered periods between the first and second round.

For everyone saying "oh just keep them trained", there are limited opportunities to do so. Sim time for qualification is not just endless, there are only so many sims and only so many instructors available. Even if you get them through sim time, the 100 hours in the first 90 days is a challenge if you don't have enough lines to support that, it isn't like you can just keep pulling pilots off trips and stick in a new CA/FO instead (without sending costs through the roof). That isn't unique to DL or to any other carrier, it is an industry-wide issue.

Where DL failed is in the failure to meet the requirements for the published schedule (not once, not twice but three times mind you). Crew planning gives network planning a "crew max" representing the max number of block hours that can be flown for a given day/period and network planning has to abide by that. Crew planning at that point has the responsibility once the schedule is live to ensure that their bid is best optimized for it and adequate reserves are available to cover the operation. A failure to put out a bid that covers the flying requirements would be beyond absurd, particularly after you just had two previous holiday struggles for the same issue when no other carriers had the same problem. Yesterday was a clear sunny day in most of the country so reserve usage due to weather was minimal and yet DL still managed to cancel 70 flights and a have a few hundred delays related to crew - no other airline had that issue.

Ultimately this is a crew planning failure again. Based on the numbers, it's pretty clear they were short around 80-90 crews yesterday after exhausting all reserves. Assuming slightly increased reserve staffing for the holiday period, my best guess would indicate they were short about 230-270 total crews from where they needed to be to still have reserves left over at the end of the day. That is 460-540 pilots (assuming 50/50 split between CA and FO) that simply weren't ready or scheduled or whatever the reason was. Can't cover up for that and DL rightfully deserves flak for it, just as every other carrier does for their preventable large operation meltdowns.

Being friends with some DL pilots that have been UNA for months, I don't have faith they will be ready for Memorial Day just due to the rate their training is progressing at. Their training seems notably slower progressing than every other carrier. Is DL short ground/sim instructors? If so that would explain a good portion of their slower progress.

They could have made schedules were they flew the airplanes a couple days a month. But now they are going to spend millions retraining guys and sims will be just as delayed.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 272
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:32 pm

alasizon wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
trueblew wrote:

Total and absolute mismanagement. This is not the Delta of years past. I am embarrassed for the front-line workers who are dealing with the major screw-ups of management.

As far as the surprise middle-seat unblocking goes, when a business like Delta falsely hypes up the supposed enhanced safety of middle seat blocking and charges a premium to promise to deliver that.... and then DOESN'T.... well, that's a problem. Massive black eye for Delta, and rightly so. They've jettisoned their integrity due to a third holiday staffing meltdown in six months. Which other airlines have had holiday meltdowns lately? Much less three. Ed Bastian should be dragged in front of a congressional committee (after all they've taken billions from the government lately) to answer for their mismanagement, but that of course won't happen.

How come airlines furloughed any crew If all the salaries got bailed out anyways? Now they are going to have to retrain everyone AGAIN less than a year later


CARES/PSP didn't cover 100% of salaries and furloughs were only done during the non-covered periods between the first and second round.

For everyone saying "oh just keep them trained", there are limited opportunities to do so. Sim time for qualification is not just endless, there are only so many sims and only so many instructors available. Even if you get them through sim time, the 100 hours in the first 90 days is a challenge if you don't have enough lines to support that, it isn't like you can just keep pulling pilots off trips and stick in a new CA/FO instead (without sending costs through the roof). That isn't unique to DL or to any other carrier, it is an industry-wide issue.

Where DL failed is in the failure to meet the requirements for the published schedule (not once, not twice but three times mind you). Crew planning gives network planning a "crew max" representing the max number of block hours that can be flown for a given day/period and network planning has to abide by that. Crew planning at that point has the responsibility once the schedule is live to ensure that their bid is best optimized for it and adequate reserves are available to cover the operation. A failure to put out a bid that covers the flying requirements would be beyond absurd, particularly after you just had two previous holiday struggles for the same issue when no other carriers had the same problem. Yesterday was a clear sunny day in most of the country so reserve usage due to weather was minimal and yet DL still managed to cancel 70 flights and a have a few hundred delays related to crew - no other airline had that issue.

Ultimately this is a crew planning failure again. Based on the numbers, it's pretty clear they were short around 80-90 crews yesterday after exhausting all reserves. Assuming slightly increased reserve staffing for the holiday period, my best guess would indicate they were short about 230-270 total crews from where they needed to be to still have reserves left over at the end of the day. That is 460-540 pilots (assuming 50/50 split between CA and FO) that simply weren't ready or scheduled or whatever the reason was. Can't cover up for that and DL rightfully deserves flak for it, just as every other carrier does for their preventable large operation meltdowns.

Being friends with some DL pilots that have been UNA for months, I don't have faith they will be ready for Memorial Day just due to the rate their training is progressing at. Their training seems notably slower progressing than every other carrier. Is DL short ground/sim instructors? If so that would explain a good portion of their slower progress.


$1k a month is generous. Many were already on the 717 and low paying fleets. Some were on 1st year pay, so it's the same no matter what fleet. They lost money overall. Ex: when they gave most of the 220 pilots UNA, they then had to fill these spots as the fleet was being used 100% & taking deliveries. Instead they forced people to replace the UNA, train them, and then those same pilots are fleeing in mass back to their previous fleet. And now they are recalling these UNA back to the 220. A revolving door of training, absolutely pointless. Lets be clear, they could have offered SILS instead of UNA, and instead of 65hr @ 717 pay theyd be 55 hours (or even a lesser value) and it would have been voluntary. And this would have kept more people in their seats to avery this self-inflicted training logjam. And it's not like they didn't know this would/could happen..ALPA and regular line pilots were fiercely and constantly badgering management for it! But they dismissed it at every turn. Ed said they weren't fair to the Delta Family, and we WON'T do them. The Flt Ops leaders mocked the concept in a townhall, saying "whats a SILs?"

Let me also squash the notion that pilots aren't working more on the holidays and days off. That's statistically false. For the months of Nov 2020, Dec 2020, January 2021, and Feb 2021..pilots have set monthly records for amounts of flown GreenSlips (voluntary overtime trips). How is that even possible when you are flying half the 2019 schedule? As more data comes in, I'm sure March & April will also be all-time records.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:25 pm

And just my opinion: Why May 1st to unblock all seats? All adults who want a vaccine still won't universally have access to one. It seemed a month or two early based on the virtue of holding out for herd mmunity.

I think we just saw why. If they can't staff this weekend, they won't have a chance in the surging May bid period. They've been running greenslips to staff the airline the last 6 months since they've had little to no pilot reserves. The next step is cancel flights. They want to grow the schedule, but literally cannot reactivate their parked planes without pilots to fly them. And boom, middle seat is now open!
 
catiii
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:40 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
catiii wrote:
[*]
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Why? Most airlines have been operating at a fraction of peak pandemic schedule. Most airlines have had flight and inflight on LTO. They have to requal. You don’t just turn the airline on again.

I think the issue people have is that taxpayers paid almost all personnel costs for airlines for the last 12 months to be able to “just turn the airline on again” for the recovery and save airlines from having to furlough and displace a bunch of pilots, which would take years to recover from from a training standpoint. Yet, here we are, understaffed, despite the taxpayers covering payroll. The problem is, airlines had to make decisions for survival and PSP came after the fact each time it was doled out. If airline mgmt and unions knew for sure taxpayers would fund what they ended up funding, we likely wouldn’t have seen near as many displacements and would have seen more effort to keep people current and qualified in their airframe. I don’t necessarily fault delta for all of that, but having their fleet as complex as they do with as many pilot groups as they had entering the pandemic (even still to this day minus the maddog and triple), as well as their decision to furlough and displace a lot (and put it into motion, until PSP saved the pilots who were left UNA), and their decision to continue to cap flight loads, all are part of how they put themselves into a position to not be able to fully handle the recovery, and that is on them. I doubt they will be the only ones with issues though if this recovery in travel continues. This summer should be quite interesting.


No, the government funding was to stop furloughs. Not to subsidize the operation or have crews trained to turn the operation on again when demand returned.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:44 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
But they dismissed it at every turn. Ed said they weren't fair to the Delta Family, and we WON'T do them. The Flt Ops leaders mocked the concept in a town hall, saying "what's a SILs?"


translation: "We don't want the AFA gaining any more ground than they already have."

I initially thought the TownHalls were a great idea, but they became kind of self-serving pretty fast.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:08 pm

catiii wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
catiii wrote:
[*]

Why? Most airlines have been operating at a fraction of peak pandemic schedule. Most airlines have had flight and inflight on LTO. They have to requal. You don’t just turn the airline on again.

I think the issue people have is that taxpayers paid almost all personnel costs for airlines for the last 12 months to be able to “just turn the airline on again” for the recovery and save airlines from having to furlough and displace a bunch of pilots, which would take years to recover from from a training standpoint. Yet, here we are, understaffed, despite the taxpayers covering payroll. The problem is, airlines had to make decisions for survival and PSP came after the fact each time it was doled out. If airline mgmt and unions knew for sure taxpayers would fund what they ended up funding, we likely wouldn’t have seen near as many displacements and would have seen more effort to keep people current and qualified in their airframe. I don’t necessarily fault delta for all of that, but having their fleet as complex as they do with as many pilot groups as they had entering the pandemic (even still to this day minus the maddog and triple), as well as their decision to furlough and displace a lot (and put it into motion, until PSP saved the pilots who were left UNA), and their decision to continue to cap flight loads, all are part of how they put themselves into a position to not be able to fully handle the recovery, and that is on them. I doubt they will be the only ones with issues though if this recovery in travel continues. This summer should be quite interesting.


No, the government funding was to stop furloughs. Not to subsidize the operation or have crews trained to turn the operation on again when demand returned.

I never said anything about subsidizing the operation (although that’s a different argument, and some of the operations were in fact subsidized).

The purpose of “stopping furloughs” was not just to save jobs for the sake of saving airline worker jobs, but so that when the recovery came, the airline industry wouldn’t be in shambles and unable to meet demand, which would further hinder the economic recovery for the country. Airline workers weren’t selected to be saved because they were special. Or just randomly, it was because letting airlines furlough a lot would have far reaching impacts on our economy with the length of time necessary to displace/furlough, retrain, retrain, and retrain with each subsequent bid to build back up. It would have destroyed the legacies and our entire aviation infrastructure would have been screwed. The point of it was to prevent the job loss so that wouldn’t happen and enough people would stay current and qualified. That’s how it was sold.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:53 pm

JoseSalazar - you are spot on. That exactly how I understood from reading the airlines petitions. It seems the other airlines used their subsidies (that's what it was) to be able to gear back up better than DL
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    COflyerBOS
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    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:36 pm

    birdup wrote:
    COflyerBOS wrote:
    Flew DTW-LAX. Paid for first because only reason I traveled was covid funeral. They seated me next to a woman who was not happy (nor was I but I don’t take frustrations out on FA). FA asked everyone in first if they minded being seated next to someone. Everyone said “yes.” I said I had no problem going in back but the back was full. In the end a guy in 1D said yes when offered miles. Only reason I had booked DL was the social distancing seating policy. Please don’t at me with it’s the flu. Just buried my brother.


    That’s rough. So sorry for your loss.


    Thank you. Delta crew handled it with class. Posted mostly to prove that Delta is drawing customers due to their current policy. In my small 321 sample, 100% didn’t want a neighbor.
     
    Alias1024
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    Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

    Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:51 pm

    Cactusjuba wrote:
    alasizon wrote:
    32andBelow wrote:
    How come airlines furloughed any crew If all the salaries got bailed out anyways? Now they are going to have to retrain everyone AGAIN less than a year later


    CARES/PSP didn't cover 100% of salaries and furloughs were only done during the non-covered periods between the first and second round.

    For everyone saying "oh just keep them trained", there are limited opportunities to do so. Sim time for qualification is not just endless, there are only so many sims and only so many instructors available. Even if you get them through sim time, the 100 hours in the first 90 days is a challenge if you don't have enough lines to support that, it isn't like you can just keep pulling pilots off trips and stick in a new CA/FO instead (without sending costs through the roof). That isn't unique to DL or to any other carrier, it is an industry-wide issue.

    Where DL failed is in the failure to meet the requirements for the published schedule (not once, not twice but three times mind you). Crew planning gives network planning a "crew max" representing the max number of block hours that can be flown for a given day/period and network planning has to abide by that. Crew planning at that point has the responsibility once the schedule is live to ensure that their bid is best optimized for it and adequate reserves are available to cover the operation. A failure to put out a bid that covers the flying requirements would be beyond absurd, particularly after you just had two previous holiday struggles for the same issue when no other carriers had the same problem. Yesterday was a clear sunny day in most of the country so reserve usage due to weather was minimal and yet DL still managed to cancel 70 flights and a have a few hundred delays related to crew - no other airline had that issue.

    Ultimately this is a crew planning failure again. Based on the numbers, it's pretty clear they were short around 80-90 crews yesterday after exhausting all reserves. Assuming slightly increased reserve staffing for the holiday period, my best guess would indicate they were short about 230-270 total crews from where they needed to be to still have reserves left over at the end of the day. That is 460-540 pilots (assuming 50/50 split between CA and FO) that simply weren't ready or scheduled or whatever the reason was. Can't cover up for that and DL rightfully deserves flak for it, just as every other carrier does for their preventable large operation meltdowns.

    Being friends with some DL pilots that have been UNA for months, I don't have faith they will be ready for Memorial Day just due to the rate their training is progressing at. Their training seems notably slower progressing than every other carrier. Is DL short ground/sim instructors? If so that would explain a good portion of their slower progress.


    $1k a month is generous. Many were already on the 717 and low paying fleets. Some were on 1st year pay, so it's the same no matter what fleet.


    If anything $1k a month was an underestimate. Even for the first year guys and gals the savings was close to $800 a month. Barring an amazingly high take rate on SILs you’d have seen a huge excess of reserves due to contractual line construction limits (both monthly and rolling 12 month average). That means those pilots are collecting 72 hour reserve guarantee instead of 65 hours as a UNA.

    Literally any pilot past their first year was a savings in excess of $1000 per month considering the extra hours for reserve guarantee plus payroll taxes and retirement. Throw in reduced pay rates for anyone not on the 717 and the savings only go up.

    To be clear, this is not a comment on whether it was penny wise but pound foolish given the training/staffing problems that have occurred. Merely an explanation of why this was a road Delta would have pursued but United would not.
    It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
     
    catiii
    Posts: 3845
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    Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

    Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:59 am

    JoseSalazar wrote:
    catiii wrote:
    JoseSalazar wrote:
    I think the issue people have is that taxpayers paid almost all personnel costs for airlines for the last 12 months to be able to “just turn the airline on again” for the recovery and save airlines from having to furlough and displace a bunch of pilots, which would take years to recover from from a training standpoint. Yet, here we are, understaffed, despite the taxpayers covering payroll. The problem is, airlines had to make decisions for survival and PSP came after the fact each time it was doled out. If airline mgmt and unions knew for sure taxpayers would fund what they ended up funding, we likely wouldn’t have seen near as many displacements and would have seen more effort to keep people current and qualified in their airframe. I don’t necessarily fault delta for all of that, but having their fleet as complex as they do with as many pilot groups as they had entering the pandemic (even still to this day minus the maddog and triple), as well as their decision to furlough and displace a lot (and put it into motion, until PSP saved the pilots who were left UNA), and their decision to continue to cap flight loads, all are part of how they put themselves into a position to not be able to fully handle the recovery, and that is on them. I doubt they will be the only ones with issues though if this recovery in travel continues. This summer should be quite interesting.


    No, the government funding was to stop furloughs. Not to subsidize the operation or have crews trained to turn the operation on again when demand returned.

    I never said anything about subsidizing the operation (although that’s a different argument, and some of the operations were in fact subsidized).

    The purpose of “stopping furloughs” was not just to save jobs for the sake of saving airline worker jobs, but so that when the recovery came, the airline industry wouldn’t be in shambles and unable to meet demand, which would further hinder the economic recovery for the country. Airline workers weren’t selected to be saved because they were special. Or just randomly, it was because letting airlines furlough a lot would have far reaching impacts on our economy with the length of time necessary to displace/furlough, retrain, retrain, and retrain with each subsequent bid to build back up. It would have destroyed the legacies and our entire aviation infrastructure would have been screwed. The point of it was to prevent the job loss so that wouldn’t happen and enough people would stay current and qualified. That’s how it was sold.


    Except to meet demand you have to have staff, especially inflight ant flight ops, current and qualified to ramp up operations on a moments notice. How do you do that? You subsidize cash negative flying to keep an airline flying it’s full schedule and keep crews current. Or you push everyone through sim training and subsidize the cost of that.

    None of that was the intent of CARES. It was solely to be a UI pass through to prevent furloughs. Period. No one on Capitol Hill or in either Administration had a policy objective of making certain that airlines were sufficiently staffed when demand returned.
     
    catiii
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    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:00 am

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    JoseSalazar - you are spot on. That exactly how I understood from reading the airlines petitions. It seems the other airlines used their subsidies (that's what it was) to be able to gear back up better than DL


    Link to those “petitions?”
     
    jagraham
    Posts: 1181
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    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:56 pm

    A lot of you are forgetting a couple of things. First, at this time last year, the survival of any airline was in doubt. Requiring DL to fly a schedule sufficient to keep virtually all pilots current would put the company at risk. Would DL have survived to step up flying in an instant if they had not cut back as much as they did? Maybe, but that is quite debatable. Especially when the 2020 predictions had normalcy returning in 2022 or maybe 2023.

    Second, as a few have touched on, the collective bargaining agreement requires displacement when there is excess pilots. Unless the pilots want to agree to something else. Doesn't matter what the effect is on operations. Or recovery. Keep in mind that the more senior pilots would not become 221 FOs; they would become 221 captains, and the existing captains would become 221 FOs. Very little incentive for the more senior pilot to go to UNO when he could demand to be a 221 captain being paid at a 221 captain rate. The musical chairs were inevitable unless DL were to subsidize everyone where they were at. At the worst possible time cash flow wise.
    Last edited by jagraham on Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    jagraham
    Posts: 1181
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    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:56 pm

    Note that I am not excusing DL committing to a flying schedule they could not staff
     
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    lightsaber
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    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:22 pm

    Please post on topic.
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    User avatar
    lightsaber
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    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:07 pm

    This topic is about one day of cancellations. Please stay on topic
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    SELMER40
    Posts: 251
    Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

    Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

    Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:55 pm

    Has anyone from Delta made a statement as to why 4 April happened?
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