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PA815
Topic Author
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Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:43 am

My brother was scheduled to fly to MIA tomorrow morning on Delta but his flight canceled. He was automatically rebooked but hasn’t spoken to anyone about the reason for the cancellation. Flights are full this weekend with Spring Break so I guess he’s lucky to still get into MIA tomorrow night.

Looked on Flight Aware and see there are over 70 canceled flights on Sunday. Weather looks good across most of the country and neither United nor American have any canceled flights.

Am I missing something? Has anyone heard what happened?

https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/DAL/cancelled
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 257
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:51 am

Pilot shortage. Same thing happened at Thanksgiving and then Christmas. Delta is unblocking middle seats the next two days to try and compensate.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 636
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:56 am

What a fiasco. Thanksgiving, Christmas and now Easter. Everyone who bought tickets thinking the middle seat would be blocked is going to be very pissed this weekend.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 859
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:18 am

Glad Delta is unblocking middle seats to reaccommodate people. They didn't do that over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course, the usual suspects will complain on Twitter, but I think it's worth it.
Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
Detroit313
Posts: 636
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:50 am

maps4ltd wrote:
Glad Delta is unblocking middle seats to reaccommodate people. They didn't do that over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course, the usual suspects will complain on Twitter, but I think it's worth it.


Glad that they promised people that the middle seat would be open when they spent their money to buy the ticket and now they can't keep their promise?

It is going to be a nightmare fot agents and flight attendants. Passengers will have meltdowns when they realize someone is next to them.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 556
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:01 am

Detroit313 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Glad Delta is unblocking middle seats to reaccommodate people. They didn't do that over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course, the usual suspects will complain on Twitter, but I think it's worth it.


Glad that they promised people that the middle seat would be open when they spent their money to buy the ticket and now they can't keep their promise?

It is going to be a nightmare fot agents and flight attendants. Passengers will have meltdowns when they realize someone is next to them.


Most people will be just fine with it - and with so many seats open that were going to go unsold, if somebody is uncomfortable, odds are they can be moved somewhere else on the plane between folks who are. I’m guessing there will be another “here take these SkyPesos for your trouble” email from Ed in the coming weeks for folks flying this weekend

That said - I struggle to understand why you would do this if only ~75 (2-3%) of flights are canceled tomorrow. There should be plenty of slack to accommodate that... even with the holiday. My guess is that 75 is going to be a whole lot more by tomorrow night and Monday... otherwise they wouldn’t have needed the seats.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:35 am

Detroit313 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Glad Delta is unblocking middle seats to reaccommodate people. They didn't do that over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course, the usual suspects will complain on Twitter, but I think it's worth it.


Glad that they promised people that the middle seat would be open when they spent their money to buy the ticket and now they can't keep their promise?

It is going to be a nightmare fot agents and flight attendants. Passengers will have meltdowns when they realize someone is next to them.


I agree. Alot of these same posters claim DL gets a yield premium because of its seat blocking but then claim DL pax are not going to be upset at not getting what they supposedly paid more money for.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:04 am

I can not believe there are people who are OK with this. Delta sold you a product and then played bait and switch because it couldn't deliver what it sold you. This is one of the biggest reasons I don't trust Delta when buying a ticket because this has happened to me before with them. This is not the way to run a company if you are claiming good will with your customers and employees. If you need to be home for the holiday's don't trust Delta with your travel plans because they may not deliver and they have proved that 3 holiday's in a row now. Very sad for such a well run company.
 
tphuang
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:55 am

Just imagine what will happen when DL tires to run a much larger schedule than this for the summer. There is a whole lot of training events to go to get all those displaced pilots current. And they will also have to start hiring quickly again to replace all the people that retired or took early out or left for other reasons. I think it will be quite challenging for them to get back to 15 to 20% below 2019 capacity level this summer as their route planning team have claimed they will do. This is the downside of DL having such a drastic head count reduction. They reduced cash flow for a few months, but will deal with the consequences now.

And AA will have the same problem. They displaced even more pilots. And their schedule will ramp up much faster than DL's schedule. Even with fewer fleet type, there is a lot of training involved to get 2000 pilots back current. The only major difference I can tell is AA's pilots having signed off relaxing the scope clause.

UA is actually the best position here, since they haven't retired any of their fleet and kept all their pilots current. But they have been more conservative on the capacity than the other 2.
 
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NCAD95
Posts: 238
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:17 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
I can not believe there are people who are OK with this. Delta sold you a product and then played bait and switch because it couldn't deliver what it sold you. This is one of the biggest reasons I don't trust Delta when buying a ticket because this has happened to me before with them. This is not the way to run a company if you are claiming good will with your customers and employees. If you need to be home for the holiday's don't trust Delta with your travel plans because they may not deliver and they have proved that 3 holiday's in a row now. Very sad for such a well run company.


Are you complaining about middle seats, or flight cancellations? Take a look at some of the on-time and cancellation data posted by carriers, the data now populating the DOT-required performance fields on flight selection screens.

See, for example, AA 5984 LBB-DFW. (Yes, I have a trip to Lubbock.) On time 25%. Late 38%. Cancelled 25%.

For the month of January (the most recent DOT data in the Air Travel Consumer Report), across the DL network 0.2% of flights were cancelled, the best among reporting carriers. For AA it was 1.4%; UA 1.8%.

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/do ... 20ATCR.pdf


In my opinion the cancelation stats are meaningless because a airline can literally delay a flight for ever as long as it operates it doesn't get counted. Give me some missed connection data or how late flights are departing.
 
jayunited
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:44 am

tphuang wrote:
Just imagine what will happen when DL tires to run a much larger schedule than this for the summer. There is a whole lot of training events to go to get all those displaced pilots current. And they will also have to start hiring quickly again to replace all the people that retired or took early out or left for other reasons. I think it will be quite challenging for them to get back to 15 to 20% below 2019 capacity level this summer as their route planning team have claimed they will do. This is the downside of DL having such a drastic head count reduction. They reduced cash flow for a few months, but will deal with the consequences now.

And AA will have the same problem. They displaced even more pilots. And their schedule will ramp up much faster than DL's schedule. Even with fewer fleet type, there is a lot of training involved to get 2000 pilots back current. The only major difference I can tell is AA's pilots having signed off relaxing the scope clause.

UA is actually the best position here, since they haven't retired any of their fleet and kept all their pilots current. But they have been more conservative on the capacity than the other 2.


As much as I appreciate you saying United is in the best position, that may not necessarily be true. From July 2020 through August of 2021 United will have lost a total of 1600 pilots either do to pilots taking the early outs and/or pilots reaching the mandatory retirement age. This is why United will start hiring pilots soon but that will not help us this coming summer as it takes months for a new hire pilot class to graduate as get out into the field.
 
Deltran757
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:46 am

Detroit313 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Glad Delta is unblocking middle seats to reaccommodate people. They didn't do that over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course, the usual suspects will complain on Twitter, but I think it's worth it.


Glad that they promised people that the middle seat would be open when they spent their money to buy the ticket and now they can't keep their promise?

It is going to be a nightmare fot agents and flight attendants. Passengers will have meltdowns when they realize someone is next to them.


For a agent like me. Not really. In 2020 yes, but now here in 2021, most pax are getting use to the norm of full flights as more and more people are traveling. I work CRJ200s all the way up to 764 here in Atlanta. I barely run across issues with pax complaining about sitting next to someone that’s not in the same reservation.
To see the world... One plane at a time
 
astaz
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:07 pm

Deltran757 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Glad Delta is unblocking middle seats to reaccommodate people. They didn't do that over Thanksgiving and Christmas. Of course, the usual suspects will complain on Twitter, but I think it's worth it.


Glad that they promised people that the middle seat would be open when they spent their money to buy the ticket and now they can't keep their promise?

It is going to be a nightmare fot agents and flight attendants. Passengers will have meltdowns when they realize someone is next to them.


For a agent like me. Not really. In 2020 yes, but now here in 2021, most pax are getting use to the norm of full flights as more and more people are traveling. I work CRJ200s all the way up to 764 here in Atlanta. I barely run across issues with pax complaining about sitting next to someone that’s not in the same reservation.


My guess is most people wouldn’t say anything because they don’t want to be rude, but secretly are angry/frustrated/annoyed with the airline. Delta sold a product “Empty Middle Seats Until 4/30/21” and the passenger got stuck with someone in the middle seat.

I was annoyed the time I booked a big front seat on Spirit, and I got on board and it didn’t exist. I still took the flight, but I was annoyed, and I remember that every time I consider booking a spirit ticket.

Not saying customers will never come back, just saying when you’re sold one thing and given another, it sticks with you. Most aren’t gonna walk off the plane because the don’t have social distance, but, if they paid a premium to fly delta versus the other guys because of “Empty Middle Seats”, they’re going to be annoyed.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:19 pm

astaz wrote:
Deltran757 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:

Glad that they promised people that the middle seat would be open when they spent their money to buy the ticket and now they can't keep their promise?

It is going to be a nightmare fot agents and flight attendants. Passengers will have meltdowns when they realize someone is next to them.


For a agent like me. Not really. In 2020 yes, but now here in 2021, most pax are getting use to the norm of full flights as more and more people are traveling. I work CRJ200s all the way up to 764 here in Atlanta. I barely run across issues with pax complaining about sitting next to someone that’s not in the same reservation.


My guess is most people wouldn’t say anything because they don’t want to be rude, but secretly are angry/frustrated/annoyed with the airline. Delta sold a product “Empty Middle Seats Until 4/30/21” and the passenger got stuck with someone in the middle seat.



I was annoyed the time I booked a big front seat on Spirit, and I got on board and it didn’t exist. I still took the flight, but I was annoyed, and I remember that every time I consider booking a spirit ticket.

Not saying customers will never come back, just saying when you’re sold one thing and given another, it sticks with you. Most aren’t gonna walk off the plane because the don’t have social distance, but, if they paid a premium to fly delta versus the other guys because of “Empty Middle Seats”, they’re going to be annoyed.


That and the fact people just want to get where they are going on a holiday. I come from a time where the customer experience really matter to the airline so I make a mental note every time I am treated just like a number and not a paying customer. While most people we say well you get what you pay for that maybe true but the airline should not trying to sell me something that they are not willing to provide. It's like buying a loaf of bread and when you get to the store they say sorry we only have half loafs left sorry for the inconvenience.
 
twicearound
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:37 pm

FA shortage as well this weekend. They’re offering incentive pay for them to come to work.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:13 pm

It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now
 
umichman
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:14 pm

The 75 flights represent 3% of their flights. While there will be cases of people forced to sit together on some flights, that's far from enough cancellations to force every flight to be full. The situation around Thanksgiving was far more dramatic with more than 500 flights being cancelled.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:38 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
astaz wrote:
Deltran757 wrote:

For a agent like me. Not really. In 2020 yes, but now here in 2021, most pax are getting use to the norm of full flights as more and more people are traveling. I work CRJ200s all the way up to 764 here in Atlanta. I barely run across issues with pax complaining about sitting next to someone that’s not in the same reservation.


My guess is most people wouldn’t say anything because they don’t want to be rude, but secretly are angry/frustrated/annoyed with the airline. Delta sold a product “Empty Middle Seats Until 4/30/21” and the passenger got stuck with someone in the middle seat.



I was annoyed the time I booked a big front seat on Spirit, and I got on board and it didn’t exist. I still took the flight, but I was annoyed, and I remember that every time I consider booking a spirit ticket.

Not saying customers will never come back, just saying when you’re sold one thing and given another, it sticks with you. Most aren’t gonna walk off the plane because the don’t have social distance, but, if they paid a premium to fly delta versus the other guys because of “Empty Middle Seats”, they’re going to be annoyed.


That and the fact people just want to get where they are going on a holiday. I come from a time where the customer experience really matter to the airline so I make a mental note every time I am treated just like a number and not a paying customer. While most people we say well you get what you pay for that maybe true but the airline should not trying to sell me something that they are not willing to provide. It's like buying a loaf of bread and when you get to the store they say sorry we only have half loafs left sorry for the inconvenience.


Yeah I grew up in SBN with North Central DC9's and CV580's . Because Delta was blocking middle seats and taking out a center row on RJ's they have moved up their pre-pandemic plans and are using Endeavor CRJ900's on SBN-ATL flights and the flights are filling up so I'm sure they are glad to get the revenue from those seats.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:45 pm

32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


It happened at Delta's Regionals too. Skywest was short on FA's for part of this pandemic so Delta had their subsidiary Endeavor fill in. This probably saved Delta money. Now that traffic has returned Delta has had to use larger Endeavor Regional Jets on some routes as blocking a whole aisle of seats on a 50-seat CRJ200 just didn't cut it. Plus they can sell premium seats which the customers like on the CRJ900. Unblocking one of the middle aisles on that jets allows them to sell all 76 seats which is good for revenue.
 
nwadeicer
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:00 pm

32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Delta had way more people take the early out package than they expected. That plus the voluntary leaves and they are running short. They didn't expect traffic to pick up as fast as it has. There was an internal job opening list of quite a few stations, I believe the phase two of listings is up right now thru next week. I know ATL lost well north of 1000 employees, both above and below wing, MSP well over 500.
I miss the Red Tail
 
Biophobe99
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:04 pm

From my understanding there are a lot of issues with staffing right now due to continued possible covid exposure and mandatory quarantine, vaccination side effects absences and mandatory pilot absence for 48 hours after any vaccination. Its also exacerbated by the fact that DL has a tendency to utilize a lean staffing model. Customers affected will not be pleased but DL does have a way of making a good effort to compensate people for the inconvenience as well as up gauging aircraft where possible to get people where they want to go. I expect to see quite a few 767-300ERs in and out of Florida this weekend.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:34 pm

DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms
 
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NCAD95
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:55 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It’s absolutely unreal that any airline has any type of staffing shortage right now


Delta had way more people take the early out package than they expected. That plus the voluntary leaves and they are running short. They didn't expect traffic to pick up as fast as it has. There was an internal job opening list of quite a few stations, I believe the phase two of listings is up right now thru next week. I know ATL lost well north of 1000 employees, both above and below wing, MSP well over 500.


And that's fine but you know that going in if your a well run company and you schedule accordingly but what Delta appears to have done here is sold more seats than it could provide. We can make all the excuses we want about staffing issues but you mean to tell me Delta doesn't know what they had to work with. You don't platy the bait and switch that is very poor business ethics and it should be seen exactly for what it is. Delta knows exactly what they are doing because they've done it three times now.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:56 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms


Sorry I would have expected better from a full service carrier that prides itself on being an industry leader.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:10 pm

Blocking the middle seats also has allowed them to jack up their prices to make up for the lost revenue.
 
RobertS975
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Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:16 pm

Delta has excelled in many ways through this pandemic, but these holiday meltdowns are just about unforgivable.
 
ethernal
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:23 pm

umichman wrote:
The 75 flights represent 3% of their flights. While there will be cases of people forced to sit together on some flights, that's far from enough cancellations to force every flight to be full. The situation around Thanksgiving was far more dramatic with more than 500 flights being cancelled.


Pre-COVID Delta would have thrown a conniption over 3% cancelled flights during a holiday weekend and is one of the reasons why people flew them. Barring mother nature completely throwing a wrench in everything, Delta would get you to your destination hell or high water - even if it meant flying an empty rescue flight for 6 hours to pick you up. This is the airline that ran 220+ days with zero mainline cancellations and more than 150+ days with zero mainline and regional cancellations ("brand perfect" days they used to call them). Games with 20+ hour delays aside, this is an airline where nearly half of the days of the year they literally had zero cancellations across their entire mainline and regional ops.

Easter weekend, Thanksgiving, and Christmas holidays were always circled on the calendar as "don't *$%@ up days" where they would pre-authorize any expense, any overtime, and any fleet shenanigans to keep cancellations down to 0 - or damn close to it.

Cancelling 3% of their flights for a predictable reason for the third time in the past six months makes me scared for what Delta's priorities will be going forward.

Removing the seat block makes things even worse because now that 3% of impacted flights spills over to impact most/all of their flights. Delta sold a promise, people paid extra for it (25%+ RASM revenue premium), and now they broke the promise. Delta better be real quick with material compensation, or even better, be asking for volunteers at the gate proactively with compensation to account for it. I'd be slightly more okay with removing the seat blocking if there was a major WX issue, but a predictable pilot shortage... not so much.
Last edited by ethernal on Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 645
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:24 pm

Biophobe99 wrote:
From my understanding there are a lot of issues with staffing right now due to continued possible covid exposure and mandatory quarantine, vaccination side effects absences and mandatory pilot absence for 48 hours after any vaccination. Its also exacerbated by the fact that DL has a tendency to utilize a lean staffing model. Customers affected will not be pleased but DL does have a way of making a good effort to compensate people for the inconvenience as well as up gauging aircraft where possible to get people where they want to go. I expect to see quite a few 767-300ERs in and out of Florida this weekend.

Staffing issues have nothing to do with covid exposure or quarantine.
 
NoNonsense
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:42 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:25 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Just imagine what will happen when DL tires to run a much larger schedule than this for the summer. There is a whole lot of training events to go to get all those displaced pilots current. And they will also have to start hiring quickly again to replace all the people that retired or took early out or left for other reasons. I think it will be quite challenging for them to get back to 15 to 20% below 2019 capacity level this summer as their route planning team have claimed they will do. This is the downside of DL having such a drastic head count reduction. They reduced cash flow for a few months, but will deal with the consequences now.

And AA will have the same problem. They displaced even more pilots. And their schedule will ramp up much faster than DL's schedule. Even with fewer fleet type, there is a lot of training involved to get 2000 pilots back current. The only major difference I can tell is AA's pilots having signed off relaxing the scope clause.

UA is actually the best position here, since they haven't retired any of their fleet and kept all their pilots current. But they have been more conservative on the capacity than the other 2.


As much as I appreciate you saying United is in the best position, that may not necessarily be true. From July 2020 through August of 2021 United will have lost a total of 1600 pilots either do to pilots taking the early outs and/or pilots reaching the mandatory retirement age. This is why United will start hiring pilots soon but that will not help us this coming summer as it takes months for a new hire pilot class to graduate as get out into the field.



jayunited,

Actually the start of hiring now may help fill-in some need sooner but it primarily is the beginning of the future need for 2022. The LOA with ALPA is covering most of this summer.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 272
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
I can not believe there are people who are OK with this. Delta sold you a product and then played bait and switch because it couldn't deliver what it sold you. This is one of the biggest reasons I don't trust Delta when buying a ticket because this has happened to me before with them. This is not the way to run a company if you are claiming good will with your customers and employees. If you need to be home for the holiday's don't trust Delta with your travel plans because they may not deliver and they have proved that 3 holiday's in a row now. Very sad for such a well run company.


Are you complaining about middle seats, or flight cancellations? Take a look at some of the on-time and cancellation data posted by carriers, the data now populating the DOT-required performance fields on flight selection screens.

See, for example, AA 5984 LBB-DFW. (Yes, I have a trip to Lubbock.) On time 25%. Late 38%. Cancelled 25%.

For the month of January (the most recent DOT data in the Air Travel Consumer Report), across the DL network 0.2% of flights were cancelled, the best among reporting carriers. For AA it was 1.4%; UA 1.8%.

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/do ... 20ATCR.pdf


DL has been leading in most metrics for the past few years within the legacies so seeing them struggle to provide reliable service for the past few major holidays is concerning. AA outperformed DL in cancellations for NOV20 and DEC20. DFW is the hub that AA has prioritized for funneling passengers through but the performance for that airport are actually some of the worst systemwide. You should see the baggage performance or MBRs at DFW compared to other hubs.

https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/air-travel ... 20-numbers
 
tphuang
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Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:31 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms


They are going to have this all summer unless the route planners calm down and stop scheduling flight they simply are not capable of flying.

DL led the industry in the number of early outs they had, which is part of the reason their salary obligations went down 1/3. Guess what, now the chicken come to roost. You can't have 1500+? early out and attrition + another 1700+ UNAs and expect to have enough pilots to cover your flying need ahead of the summer rush when demand suddenly explodes. How are they going to get all those pilots trained in 2 months to cover the increased flying they've been talking?

This is not an industry wide issue. Not every airlines reduced their head count by 1/3 and then expect to fly at 85% pre-COVID schedule. Might just be an DL and AA issue.
 
umichman
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:51 pm

It seems when there have been "staffing issues" in the past, they have generally manifest themselves at the end of the month when too many staff are at max hours to handle scheduled flights. This looks to be a different kind of "issue" involving not getting enough staff to work holidays or too many calling in sick (or some combination thereof). It's not clear to me that simply recalling more staff will solve this particular issue.
Last edited by umichman on Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 645
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:58 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms

Yes - this summer will be a struggle for all carriers.
 
ethernal
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:03 pm

umichman wrote:
It seems when there have been "staffing issues" in the past, they have generally manifest themselves at the end of the month when too many staff are at max hours to handle scheduled flights. This looks to be a different kind of "issue" involving not getting enough staff to work holidays or too many calling in sick (or some combination thereof).


Part of it comes down to the new normal of loosey-goosey schedules. All airlines got into the habit of way overscheduling and then just saying they'll clean it up 30-45 days before departure. Everything was copacetic right until it wasn't because demand surged faster than expected. Delta is struggling the most here between their voluntary capacity restrictions (seat blocking) and significant early retirement and voluntary leave programs that had strong uptake (this isn't making excuses - Delta screwed up royally here - just stating the facts).

I have several flights booked in May. All but one of them got adjusted on schedule change Saturday yesterday (including one in the first week of May). Definitely some panic in trying to get things cleaned up and actually flyable I think. Pre-COVID Delta's (and other majors) schedules were pretty locked 3 months before departure. Now, schedules are fluid until T-4 weeks at a minimum.
 
codc10
Posts: 3066
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:11 pm

tphuang wrote:
UA is actually the best position here, since they haven't retired any of their fleet and kept all their pilots current. But they have been more conservative on the capacity than the other 2.


It's not exactly true that all UA pilots are current, as a number have been awarded new seats/fleets and are awaiting training. There were pretty significant displacements last year, plus retirements and early outs, which have led to a ton of movement over the past few months and a very busy training center.

UA might be in a good position to flex up capacity (on a comparative basis) but it is similarly, albeit temporarily, limited by training output. That's why I find AA's announcement of its "ungrounding" of its fleet to be a bit misleading, as it doesn't mean AA can simply flip a switch and have all of its remaining fleet actually in revenue service by Memorial Day. The legacies are going to be capacity-constrained this summer, I think, as a knock-on effect of the rapid COVID drawdown and the necessarily slow process associated with spooling back up.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5300
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:35 pm

tphuang wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms


They are going to have this all summer unless the route planners calm down and stop scheduling flight they simply are not capable of flying.

DL led the industry in the number of early outs they had, which is part of the reason their salary obligations went down 1/3. Guess what, now the chicken come to roost. You can't have 1500+? early out and attrition + another 1700+ UNAs and expect to have enough pilots to cover your flying need ahead of the summer rush when demand suddenly explodes. How are they going to get all those pilots trained in 2 months to cover the increased flying they've been talking?

This is not an industry wide issue. Not every airlines reduced their head count by 1/3 and then expect to fly at 85% pre-COVID schedule. Might just be an DL and AA issue.

Bring the voluntary leave people back. Didn’t delta have flight attendants in the catering department at one point?
 
ozark1
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:45 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
What a fiasco. Thanksgiving, Christmas and now Easter. Everyone who bought tickets thinking the middle seat would be blocked is going to be very pissed this weekend.

Well since they were the only carrier that kept the policy this long ( WN dropped it recently) that sure wouldn’t upset me.
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:45 pm

32andBelow wrote:
tphuang wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms


They are going to have this all summer unless the route planners calm down and stop scheduling flight they simply are not capable of flying.

DL led the industry in the number of early outs they had, which is part of the reason their salary obligations went down 1/3. Guess what, now the chicken come to roost. You can't have 1500+? early out and attrition + another 1700+ UNAs and expect to have enough pilots to cover your flying need ahead of the summer rush when demand suddenly explodes. How are they going to get all those pilots trained in 2 months to cover the increased flying they've been talking?

This is not an industry wide issue. Not every airlines reduced their head count by 1/3 and then expect to fly at 85% pre-COVID schedule. Might just be an DL and AA issue.

Bring the voluntary leave people back. Didn’t delta have flight attendants in the catering department at one point?



UNA was not voluntary, and a UNA pilot is no longer qualified on any fleet. The UNAs need to rebid on to a fleet and go through the full training footprint.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7228
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:48 pm

32andBelow wrote:
tphuang wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms


They are going to have this all summer unless the route planners calm down and stop scheduling flight they simply are not capable of flying.

DL led the industry in the number of early outs they had, which is part of the reason their salary obligations went down 1/3. Guess what, now the chicken come to roost. You can't have 1500+? early out and attrition + another 1700+ UNAs and expect to have enough pilots to cover your flying need ahead of the summer rush when demand suddenly explodes. How are they going to get all those pilots trained in 2 months to cover the increased flying they've been talking?

This is not an industry wide issue. Not every airlines reduced their head count by 1/3 and then expect to fly at 85% pre-COVID schedule. Might just be an DL and AA issue.

Bring the voluntary leave people back. Didn’t delta have flight attendants in the catering department at one point?


Yeah, it's that simple - bring the voluntary leave people back. Those voluntary leave people did exactly that - they left the company voluntarily. Yes, you can bring back some of the FAs that might have gone to other departments internally, but a lot of those people left. There's a good chance they have new jobs now and they've moved on with their lives. There's a chance that some would want to come back, but odds are they'd still have to go through training and certification again, and that alone takes time.

Comparing AA to DL, AA only got rid of the 757/767 and A330s during this time, which was a small portion of the fleet (the MAX8 outage helped keep those 757s around, but the 757/767 fleet was on its way out, and the A330 fleet is small). Delta got rid of the 777 (small fleet), 737-700 (absorbed into the greater 737 pool so no major impact), sped up the MD-88/90 (they were going but the -90s were supposed to be around this summer) and roughly half of the 717s (45 ships there), while also absorbing a new type (A220) into the fleet - there's a lot more moving parts on the DL side.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5300
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:18 pm

At the end of the day the whole retraining pilots thing is going to wind up costing the airlines more than just riding it out
 
SELMER40
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:03 pm

RobertS975 wrote:
Delta has excelled in many ways through this pandemic, but these holiday meltdowns are just about unforgivable.

Are the pilot shortages being caused by the holidays coming at the end of the pilot bid month? One would believe 4 April would come at the beginning of a bid but, it may be at the end of the previous bid.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:28 pm

SELMER40 wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
Delta has excelled in many ways through this pandemic, but these holiday meltdowns are just about unforgivable.

Are the pilot shortages being caused by the holidays coming at the end of the pilot bid month? One would believe 4 April would come at the beginning of a bid but, it may be at the end of the previous bid.


My understanding is pilots tend not to pick up extra shifts during holiday periods. Other times there are plenty willing to pick up trips.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:37 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
What a fiasco. Thanksgiving, Christmas and now Easter. Everyone who bought tickets thinking the middle seat would be blocked is going to be very pissed this weekend.

Well since they were the only carrier that kept the policy this long ( WN dropped it recently) that sure wouldn’t upset me.


That's like saying because WN and NK don't have F, you're fine with other airlines downgrading you to Y.

What other airlines do or don't do has no relevance to DL failing to deliver the product they advertised. They chose to market and sell empty middle seats.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
jayunited
Posts: 3361
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:15 pm

Web500sjc wrote:

UNA was not voluntary, and a UNA pilot is no longer qualified on any fleet. The UNAs need to rebid on to a fleet and go through the full training footprint.



What?? I thought the whole purpose of no involuntary furloughs was to help Delta avoid this exact scenario where they would need to spend a ton of money sending pilots though full training.

Although United has and will loose a quite a few pilots through either our early out programs and mandatory retirement we have managed to keep our pilots current which should help save United some money on training cost.

I though Delta Airlines when they made the deal with their pilots basically followed United's blue print to avoid the cost associated with having to send pilot through the full training all over again.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:19 pm

32andBelow wrote:
tphuang wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL appears to be having a few of these during holidays.

However the staffing issue is a house of cards industry wide and I would anticipate to see a lot more of this as everything picks up more this spring and summer.

There are going to be some good operational meltdowns in the months ahead especially if we have some good rounds of thunderstorms


They are going to have this all summer unless the route planners calm down and stop scheduling flight they simply are not capable of flying.

DL led the industry in the number of early outs they had, which is part of the reason their salary obligations went down 1/3. Guess what, now the chicken come to roost. You can't have 1500+? early out and attrition + another 1700+ UNAs and expect to have enough pilots to cover your flying need ahead of the summer rush when demand suddenly explodes. How are they going to get all those pilots trained in 2 months to cover the increased flying they've been talking?

This is not an industry wide issue. Not every airlines reduced their head count by 1/3 and then expect to fly at 85% pre-COVID schedule. Might just be an DL and AA issue.

Bring the voluntary leave people back. Didn’t delta have flight attendants in the catering department at one point?


And have them pay back over $100,000 that most people got? Ooof.
 
SELMER40
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Sunday April-04 Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:35 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
SELMER40 wrote:
RobertS975 wrote:
Delta has excelled in many ways through this pandemic, but these holiday meltdowns are just about unforgivable.

Are the pilot shortages being caused by the holidays coming at the end of the pilot bid month? One would believe 4 April would come at the beginning of a bid but, it may be at the end of the previous bid.


My understanding is pilots tend not to pick up extra shifts during holiday periods. Other times there are plenty willing to pick up trips.

That is my point. If 4 April was at the beginning of a bid, all flights should have been covered by bids.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
tphuang
Posts: 6185
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:44 pm

jayunited wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:

UNA was not voluntary, and a UNA pilot is no longer qualified on any fleet. The UNAs need to rebid on to a fleet and go through the full training footprint.



What?? I thought the whole purpose of no involuntary furloughs was to help Delta avoid this exact scenario where they would need to spend a ton of money sending pilots though full training.

Although United has and will loose a quite a few pilots through either our early out programs and mandatory retirement we have managed to keep our pilots current which should help save United some money on training cost.

I though Delta Airlines when they made the deal with their pilots basically followed United's blue print to avoid the cost associated with having to send pilot through the full training all over again.

Not at all. They put all the displaced pilots in this category with no equipment, so they can save money. Now, they just put in a really large bid that will probably take a lot of expensive training to the equipment they ended up with. And on top of that, they also lost many pilots through a very generous early out and other natural attrition.

That's why I said ua worked something out better than what delta ended up with. They are going to spend a lot of money retraining over this next year.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3361
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:50 pm

tphuang wrote:
Not at all. They put all the displaced pilots in this category with no equipment, so they can save money. Now, they just put in a really large bid that will probably take a lot of expensive training to the equipment they ended up with. And on top of that, they also lost many pilots through a very generous early out and other natural attrition.

That's why I said ua worked something out better than what delta ended up with. They are going to spend a lot of money retraining over this next year.



I didn't keep up with Delta and their negotiations with their pilots I just knew they had reached an agreement to avoid involuntary furloughs and just assumed the deal reached was nearly identical to United's deal with their pilots.

Since Delta now has pilots who are not current what was the point of the deal? Was it simply for the headlines Delta avoids avoids involuntary furloughs and the good press those headlines generated?

Even when other work groups were furlough at United leadership made it 100% clear United could not afford to layoff pilots because the cost associated with getting those pilots current again is so great, the money an airline thinks they are saving by furloughing they would spend at least double that trying to get their pilots current. I just assumed Delta had a similar deal that would keep their pilots current.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 848
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:44 pm

umichman wrote:
The 75 flights represent 3% of their flights. While there will be cases of people forced to sit together on some flights, that's far from enough cancellations to force every flight to be full. The situation around Thanksgiving was far more dramatic with more than 500 flights being cancelled.


But with modern computer staffing programs why are even 3% of the Delta flights canceled with little advance notice? I am wondering about their management now!
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 848
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Sunday Delta Cancellations?

Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:50 pm

Antarius wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
What a fiasco. Thanksgiving, Christmas and now Easter. Everyone who bought tickets thinking the middle seat would be blocked is going to be very pissed this weekend.

Well since they were the only carrier that kept the policy this long ( WN dropped it recently) that sure wouldn’t upset me.


That's like saying because WN and NK don't have F, you're fine with other airlines downgrading you to Y.

What other airlines do or don't do has no relevance to DL failing to deliver the product they advertised. They chose to market and sell empty middle seats.


Agree 100%. Customers should pursue legal remedies. Does this bait-and-switch (no middle neighbor, sorry middle neighbor) constitute illegal business practice? Class action?

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