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doulasc
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[email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:21 am

I was going through old TWA timetables and notcied TWA served Toledo Ohio in the 1950s with Martin 404s,by 1961 when TWA retired
their Martins they pulled out of Toledo.I aslo noticed Lake Central did not serve Toledo til the late 1950s,maybe that might have
had something to do with TWA leaving Toledo.TWA returned to TOL after deregulation in 1979 but lasted several years.Today TOL
doesnt have much airline service.
 
FlyingViking
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 am

I remember seeing a TWA DC-9-10 in Toledo in March of 1988.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:51 am

A 1985 schedule shows three flights at TOL. A 727-200 to CLE and 727-100 and -200 service to STL. Looks like the CLE flight turned back to TOL and overnighted there.

Page 7 in the Skyliner:

http://digital.shsmo.org/digital/collection/twa/id/8230 (lots of unusual L1011 flights in that schedule)
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
ASFlyer
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:11 am

TWA had service at TOL for a while. I think it was operated by 727-100's and 727-200's for the majority of the time. Service was nonstop to STL and then, for a brief time they offered TOL-CLE-JFK once daily.
 
Q
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:11 am

 
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TWA302
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:51 pm

From a January 2001 Toledo Blade article
TWA was one of the earliest airlines to serve Toledo, but it has not flown a local flight since yanking two daily roundtrips to St. Louis in 1989. The airline does operate six daily round trips between St. Louis and Detroit Metropolitan-Wayne County Airport.

Trans World introduced stops at Toledo Municipal Airport, now Metcalf Field, in 1939 as part of its transcontinental service. In 1961, it withdrew from Toledo Express Airport, to which the city's commercial flights had moved in 1955.

The airline returned in 1979 with flights to St. Louis, but withdrew the next year, citing poor financial performance. TWA returned again in 1983 with the two daily flights that ended six years later, and were supplemented briefly in 1989 by a Trans World Express commuter flight, also to St. Louis.

It is a subscription site
https://www.toledoblade.com/business/Economy/2001/01/11/Toledo-s-TWA-history-spans-50-year-period/stories/200101110049
 
MIflyer12
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:03 pm

doulasc wrote:
Today TOL doesnt have much airline service.


Proximity to DTW, a hub with ~120 n/s destinations, and a good amount of LCC fare competition. It's a story that can be repeated a dozen times.

Pre-dereg the country had lots of weird routes, and little choice of carriers in small airports. 7% returns on 55% load factors -- those were the days of easy money.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:11 pm

Along with TWA I think Frontier and Air Florida operating out of Toledo was pretty epic.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:15 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
doulasc wrote:
Today TOL doesnt have much airline service.


Proximity to DTW, a hub with ~120 n/s destinations, and a good amount of LCC fare competition. It's a story that can be repeated a dozen times.

Pre-dereg the country had lots of weird routes, and little choice of carriers in small airports. 7% returns on 55% load factors -- those were the days of easy money.


Actually Toledo's real growth came after deregulation when many carriers added service there. Serving TOL is not really puzzling as it was another way to serve Detroit's Southern most communities between Detroit and Toledo when carriers couldn't get access into Detroit during the regulation era.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:23 pm

DL_Mech wrote:

A 1985 schedule shows three flights at TOL. A 727-200 to CLE and 727-100 and -200 service to STL. Looks like the CLE flight turned back to TOL and overnighted there.

Page 7 in the Skyliner:

http://digital.shsmo.org/digital/collection/twa/id/8230 (lots of unusual L1011 flights in that schedule)


It looks like the TOL-CLE-flight continued on to JFK, then returned JFK-CLE-TOL. Toledo's connection to Europe and The Middle East. I wonder how many TOL pax continued across the Atlantic?
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer Night's Dream
 
SFOThinker
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:46 pm

I recall that Eastern served TOL. At one point they ran DC-8s nonstop to Florida. Late 1960s?
 
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jaybird
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:37 pm

That happened with a lot of smaller communities. Originally served by the then Big 4 - American, Eastern, TWA and United. Then as airplanes got bigger and turboprops came into being - the CAB authorized a transfer of service from the majors to the local service carriers - Mohawk, Allegheny, Piedmont, North Central, Lake Central, Ozark, Frontier, etc. I remember an Eastern-Mohawk CAB case which gave most of upstate NY, VT, NH to Mohawk. The Big 4 didn't want to keep low capacity equipment around any longer - they wanted to upgrade to propjets and jets. Most of this happened in the 60s.
 
RJNUT
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:49 pm

the good news back in the days before deregulation was that all the majors and regionals interlined completely so one ticket got you quite far along on your journey.
 
flyfresno
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:06 pm

This newsletter is fascinating. I'm particularly surprised at how much service certain cities had and how little others had...looks like PSP, PIA, and TUS all had 3 flights per day while MKE, MSY, and RDU only had 2 or 1 (and MSP had zero?!). Also, a bit surprised to see no transatlantic out of STL, I figured they would have had at least one flight headed that way. The 727s within Europe are also pretty cool, as is the multi-stop to Kuwait City. What a cool artifact!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: [email protected]

Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:24 pm

International was pretty much JFK, ORD and LAX during regulation. MIA and HOU to Latin America.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: [email protected]

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:07 am

SFOThinker wrote:
I recall that Eastern served TOL. At one point they ran DC-8s nonstop to Florida. Late 1960s?


They did DC9s and 727s from Toledo to Florida most stopped in CMH first before heading to Tampa and Miami Florida. I think there were 3 flights out of Toledo at the most.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: [email protected]

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:09 am

flyfresno wrote:
This newsletter is fascinating. What a cool artifact!


I like the daily 747 from ORD to STL.

I checked the OAG, and there was a Ozark DC-9 and a DL 732 on the same route at the same time. Which one would you choose?
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: [email protected]

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:48 am

One of the coolest flights I ever had was a TWA 727-100 from CLE to STL. We made an unscheduled stop in Toledo to pick up passengers stranded due to an aircraft maintenance issue in TOL. It was a crystal clear day and we never got above a couple of thousand feet along the south shore of Lake Erie. Felt like we were on just a long base leg it was so short a flight.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    ORDPlanesTrains
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    Re: [email protected]

    Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:38 am

    NCAD95 wrote:
    SFOThinker wrote:
    I recall that Eastern served TOL. At one point they ran DC-8s nonstop to Florida. Late 1960s?


    They did DC9s and 727s from Toledo to Florida most stopped in CMH first before heading to Tampa and Miami Florida. I think there were 3 flights out of Toledo at the most.


    Growing up south of TOL, it was always a great day when we would go to the airport to pick up my Grandmother after her flight from CMH. My uncle was a pilot for American, but would get her tickets on Eastern at a price that was cheaper than driving to Columbus to pick her up. She was usually on a DC-9 if my memory servers me correctly. Have some of her old CMH-TOL tickets somewhere. Great memories.
     
    TW870
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    Re: [email protected]

    Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:53 am

    OzarkD9S wrote:
    DL_Mech wrote:

    A 1985 schedule shows three flights at TOL. A 727-200 to CLE and 727-100 and -200 service to STL. Looks like the CLE flight turned back to TOL and overnighted there.

    Page 7 in the Skyliner:

    http://digital.shsmo.org/digital/collection/twa/id/8230 (lots of unusual L1011 flights in that schedule)


    It looks like the TOL-CLE-flight continued on to JFK, then returned JFK-CLE-TOL. Toledo's connection to Europe and The Middle East. I wonder how many TOL pax continued across the Atlantic?


    TOL-CLE-JFK is a perfect example of how TWA used its JFK gateway in the 1980s. They had mainline service once a day to many U.S. cities, often with combination service (like PDX-SEA-JFK or MSP-IND-JFK). This system had two major flaws. First, it was wholly undesirable to New York-based business travelers, as cities were served once a day (often with 1-stop service) with afternoon/evening departures only. Second, while tag-on services put smaller cities like TOL on the European service map, they were likely already on that map if they were connected to big hubs such as DFW, ORD, or ATL. Moreover, this was before the gentrification of eastern and southern Brooklyn. There was very little business travel demand for JFK domestic, as wealthy New Yorkers overwhelmingly favored LGA. The whole thing lent for a large connecting operation at JFK for TWA, but one that rarely turned a profit. Because of much more wealth in southern Queens, southern Brooklyn, and eastern Brooklyn, Delta and JetBlue have set up a much more efficient operation that serves many markets multiple times a day.
     
    Tan Flyr
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    Re: [email protected]

    Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:45 pm

    TWA also served FWA and a number of other similar sized cites from the 30's/40's (especially after WWII as more equipment available). And as someone pointed out continues until the phase out of the 404's ( and maybe a few CV440's??) These cities were scattered all over and also included places like FAT in California. Years ago there was a gentleman at our church that was hired on after the war and was a Martin 404 pilot and flew a number of those midwestern routes out of MDW. AS I recall some of those routes in the mid
    west meshed with TWA's "Ohio valley" service to PIT,CMH,DAY, Lunken (Cincinnati) and CVG, and IND.

    My friend had some quite interesting stories about those flights in those days..always said the 404 was a dream to fly.

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