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kitplane01
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United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pm

United Airlines says it will train 5,000 pilots this decade, including taking on applicants with no flying experience, and plans for half of them to be women or people of colour. -- https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/ ... -of-pilots

Do other airlines do this, or is UA the first American airline?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:17 pm

While I think this is mostly a positive thing, it should not have been published.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:21 pm

The question was ... do other American airlines do this?

Also, please remember that politics gets threads banned. Discussions of historic practices, possible effects, and problems/successes are probably in bound (but I am not a mod).
 
johns624
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:38 pm

Buried in the link near the bottom was that United "hopes" that half of them are women or minorities.
 
Trk1
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:49 pm

Good job United. It is about time that this gap be closed
 
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OA412
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:57 pm

Please leave politics out of the discussion. OP asked a very simple question that is not all political, so please just answer that question. Thank you!
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
rph99
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:36 pm

UA would be the first to publicly announce such a policy. Pros is that it fosters a more inclusive workforce. Cons is that it creates an environment where the best candidate may not be hired due to gender or race.
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:58 pm

Great initiative by United! I think they are the first
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:58 pm

I would have to say that I wonder how much of this is marketing and how much is genuine. Being woke is the craze du jour.

In the end, so long as they are qualified pilots, Im all for diversity.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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kordcj
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:17 pm

saying “they should only bring in the best candidate” is a low key negative implication that a company lowers hiring and qualification standards to bring in women or minorities, which I hope is never the case. Good for United for trying to diversify their pilot workgroup with qualified candidates.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
KFTG
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:21 pm

If United really wants to open up the talent pool, they need to start paying for 100% of flight training costs.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:22 pm

No flying experience? Huh?
 
orlandocfi
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:29 pm

The US military should lead the charge on this, considering a large chunk of pilots come from the military.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:31 pm

kordcj wrote:
saying “they should only bring in the best candidate” is a low key negative implication that a company lowers hiring and qualification standards to bring in women or minorities, which I hope is never the case. Good for United for trying to diversify their pilot workgroup with qualified candidates.


Is the implication that they were not choosing the most qualified candidates before?

Or that they decided not to do so in the future? Which is it? It's just a little bit confusing. They should low key emphasize that they will maintain best in industry hiring practices. But if they don't say that, yes, there is an implication that their selection methods will now change. This creates meaningful questions that customers would expect answers for.
 
rph99
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:33 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
kordcj wrote:
saying “they should only bring in the best candidate” is a low key negative implication that a company lowers hiring and qualification standards to bring in women or minorities, which I hope is never the case. Good for United for trying to diversify their pilot workgroup with qualified candidates.


Is the implication that they were not choosing the most qualified candidates before?

Or that they decided not to do so in the future? Which is it? It's just a little bit confusing. They should low key emphasize that they will maintain best in industry hiring practices. But if they don't say that, yes, there is an implication that their selection methods will now change. This creates meaningful questions that customers would expect answers for.



And the issue is...people can’t ask questions without being accused of being bigots. We have and continue to shut down conversations that would most likely foster a solution that actually provides meaningful enhancements to opening the cockpit door to so many more people from all walks of life.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:39 pm

kordcj wrote:
saying “they should only bring in the best candidate” is a low key negative implication that a company lowers hiring and qualification standards to bring in women or minorities, which I hope is never the case. Good for United for trying to diversify their pilot workgroup with qualified candidates.


Data point:
The military news site SOFREP reported that the army halted a gender-neutral training exercise because women were failing at a rate of 65% (https://sofrep.com/news/women-in-the-ar ... 20underway.). This was an evolution of the military's previous test, which was scored "based on age and gender."

Whether the army or a flight deck, standards SHOULD NOT be adjusted to accommodate diversity. Particularly in the army, intelligence matters more than race, gender, creed, etc. I don't care if it's 100% male or 100% female as long as the most qualified people have the job.
Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
Rhinomd11
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:43 pm

kordcj wrote:
saying “they should only bring in the best candidate” is a low key negative implication that a company lowers hiring and qualification standards to bring in women or minorities, which I hope is never the case. Good for United for trying to diversify their pilot workgroup with qualified candidates.

You cant be serious? This happens daily. It is called affirmative Action.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:44 pm

Regardless of skin color sexual orientation or social background they still have to pass training. If I signed off a United pilot after completing their IOE then they were qualified to be in that seat....period end of story.

They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.
 
DFW17L
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:45 pm

Merit matters.
 
Opus99
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:54 pm

DFW17L wrote:
Merit matters.

Tell me where they sad it doesn’t
 
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Revelation
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:55 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
I would have to say that I wonder how much of this is marketing and how much is genuine. Being woke is the craze du jour.

In the end, so long as they are qualified pilots, Im all for diversity.

Using trigger words such as "woke" is a great way to get the thread banished.

I agree, as long as the result is qualified pilots, I'm all in for diversity.

A diverse and qualified workforce is something United should be able to achieve, IMO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:15 pm

I can’t speak for the article linked (didn’t read it) but did read another one that was more about their flight school acquisition and scholarship. They committed 1.2 million and Chase matched that.

To CriticalPoint’s point, if the pilot isn’t going to make it, they’ll get washed out in training. No one is going to lower a flying standard at any point along the way (private, Instrument, commercial, atp, commuter on boarding, major on boarding). All United is doing is 1) providing access to training cheaper for groups in the past that haven’t had access, and 2) expressing a goal/hope that if step 1 works, they hope to have a 50/50 split of white male pilots to woman and people of color.

I am good with all that.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Capt.Fantastic
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:23 pm

Earlier today, United posted about this on their facebook page, but later deleted their remarks about diversity on the flight deck. Commenters were quick to criticize the post, pointing out that proficiency and skill should be at the forefront of their criteria. It's great to encourage diversity in aviation, and I hope United recruits many qualified women and minorities, but they presented this clumsily. From what I gathered from their facebook post (before they deleted it), the main criteria for new recruits was diversity. More than anything else, the flying public wants competent, well trained pilots sitting upfront. Telling customers the aim at your flight school is to fill quotas isn't going to bode well with them. Certainly, United can promote diversity while seeking the best candidates. This was not communicated well.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:26 pm

I hope their program really starts in high schools where they can inspire the career path early on.
Overall, private industry, when they want to, tend to do a much better job of moving things along than depending solely on public policy.

There will be some kids out there that this will forever change their lives. But it still has to be earned.
 
Yonderlust
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:30 pm

Snooze alert. And I'm one of the "minority" classes. To answer the OP question, don't know and I hope no other carrier makes this a priority. Just hire qualified pilots....full stop.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:32 pm

They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.


Unless they decide to not wash them out in the name of diversity. This is the great problem with these diversity initiatives. They sound great on paper until the rubber literally meets the road. Wash these candidates out and United isn't doing enough to help them succeed. Don't wash them out and the most qualified candidates aren't sitting up front.

The other issue is that being an equal opportunity employer bound by antidiscrimination laws, initiatives such as this risk being illegal unless written, construed, and applied exceptionally narrowly. Publicly owned corporations literally cannot hire anyone that they want - there are any number of state and federal equal opportunity laws that they must comply with, and reserving employment slots by any definition arguably risks violating those self-same laws. Time will tell what happens here. I make no predictions apart from otherwise qualified applicants who are not hired or retained by United will be doubtless lining up employment law attorneys by the bushel to sue on the basis of reverse discrimination; United's legal department is going to be very busy over the next few years...
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:35 pm

Capt.Fantastic wrote:
Earlier today, United posted about this on their facebook page, but later deleted their remarks about diversity on the flight deck. Commenters were quick to criticize the post, pointing out that proficiency and skill should be at the forefront of their criteria. It's great to encourage diversity in aviation, and I hope United recruits many qualified women and minorities, but they presented this clumsily. From what I gathered from their facebook post (before they deleted it), the main criteria for new recruits was diversity. More than anything else, the flying public wants competent, well trained pilots sitting upfront. Telling customers the aim at your flight school is to fill quotas isn't going to bode well with them. Certainly, United can promote diversity while seeking the best candidates. This was not communicated well.


These recruits will have zero flight time. Anyone can walk in off the street and give it a shot and they will either make it or they won’t. There is no short cut to getting your ratings and the FAA doesn’t care about diversity and they issue the license.

It’s a gamble if you don’t like it or can’t swing it you’re stuck with the loan.
 
Varsity1
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:39 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Regardless of skin color sexual orientation or social background they still have to pass training. If I signed off a United pilot after completing their IOE then they were qualified to be in that seat....period end of story.

They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.



Maybe 30 years ago they would.

Today Major Airline training is gentleman central. Most people they hire have 5,000+ hours of experience in fast jets.

I feel bad for the check airman and captains that will be tied up in this. They will bear the brunt of this liability. I've already heard horror stories from the JetBlue gateway program.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:43 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.


Unless they decide to not wash them out in the name of diversity. This is the great problem with these diversity initiatives. They sound great on paper until the rubber literally meets the road. Wash these candidates out and United isn't doing enough to help them succeed. Don't wash them out and the most qualified candidates aren't sitting up front.


That’s not how it works. United doesn’t issue the licenses they only issue the type ratings and those don’t come for years after the student walks in off the street.

If an Aviate pilot makes it into the flight deck of a United aircraft they will be more than qualified and if they aren’t then they will be retrained until United fires them.

If United wants to give a Pilot 100 sim sessions and a 1000hours of IOE that is their prerogative.
Last edited by CriticalPoint on Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:44 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Regardless of skin color sexual orientation or social background they still have to pass training. If I signed off a United pilot after completing their IOE then they were qualified to be in that seat....period end of story.

They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.



Maybe 30 years ago they would.

Today Major Airline training is gentleman central. Most people they hire have 5,000+ hours of experience in fast jets.

I feel bad for the check airman and captains that will be tied up in this. They will bear the brunt of this liability. I've already heard horror stories from the JetBlue gateway program.


This I can’t argue with.....I hope they continue to hire LCAs that can make the call
 
CALMSP
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:51 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Regardless of skin color sexual orientation or social background they still have to pass training. If I signed off a United pilot after completing their IOE then they were qualified to be in that seat....period end of story.

They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.



Maybe 30 years ago they would.

Today Major Airline training is gentleman central. Most people they hire have 5,000+ hours of experience in fast jets.

I feel bad for the check airman and captains that will be tied up in this. They will bear the brunt of this liability. I've already heard horror stories from the JetBlue gateway program.


there's already captains posting internally on flying together on the news page who aren't happy with the focus ensuring diversity over the right people. There could be tremendous efforts and time spent on training for a specific sex/race vs those who have had that experience like you mention. will be interesting to see how this pans out and whether or not UA would be willing to share the numbers.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:58 pm

The problem is pilots are overwhelmingly:

White

Male

Conservative

From rural or suburban areas


If you want to change that, you are going to have to open a flight school and pay for underrepresented minorities to train.

They can do it, but it will be costly.

Short of doing that, they could set as many slots aside as they want...They are not going to get 50% of their pilot new hires to be underrepresented minorities.

They won’t even get close to 50%...Because they just don’t exist in that size and scope
 
ChrisPBacon
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:00 pm

rph99 wrote:
UA would be the first to publicly announce such a policy. Pros is that it fosters a more inclusive workforce. Cons is that it creates an environment where the best candidate may not be hired due to gender or race.


Or experience, since they will be considering candidates with no flying experience. Personally, I wouldn’t want a job where I was hired because I checked a box and not because I was the most qualified candidate.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:20 pm

If United wants to give a Pilot 100 sim sessions and a 1000hours of IOE that is their prerogative.


True, but then United must do that FOR ALL similarly situated candidates regardless of race or gender or risk running afoul of those pesky antidiscrimination laws. That's all I'm saying. If they do, then great. If they don't, then it'll be a field day for the sue-happy lawyers. United must comply with said federal laws across the racial and gender spectrum.
 
richiemo
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:23 pm

[quote="jfklganyc"]The problem is pilots are overwhelmingly:

White

Male

Conservative

From rural or suburban areas


If you want to change that, you are going to have to open a flight school and pay for underrepresented minorities to train.

They can do it, but it will be costly.

Short of doing that, they could set as many slots aside as they want...They are not going to get 50% of their pilot new hires to be underrepresented minorities.

They won’t even get close to 50%...Because they just don’t exist in that size and scope[How do you know they're conservative??? How do you know>>>]
 
richiemo
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:25 pm

Someone says above pilots are mostly conservative. Says who???? Do they identify as such when they address the passengers. I've never heard that before. Maybe it identifies them as such on their name tag. I'll have to look closely. This kinda stereotyping....double-standards
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:30 pm

As a parent of two adult daughters (who are not working in aviation), I hope that more opportunities arise in every profession for qualified people who may not have been given a fair shot in the past.

The key will be in the execution of this United model. A fine line exists.
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    TTailedTiger
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    Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

    Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    As a parent of two adult daughters (who are not working in aviation), I hope that more opportunities arise in every profession for qualified people who may not have been given a fair shot in the past.

    The key will be in the execution of this United model. A fine line exists.


    If they are the most qualified then they won't have any issue. Do you believe United or any airline is passing on qualified pilot applicants based on gender or race? If that were true we would see tons of lawsuits.
     
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    jfklganyc
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    Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

    Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:48 pm

    richiemo wrote:
    Someone says above pilots are mostly conservative. Says who???? Do they identify as such when they address the passengers. I've never heard that before. Maybe it identifies them as such on their name tag. I'll have to look closely. This kinda stereotyping....double-standards


    I’m not stereotyping at all. I’ve been in the cockpit for 18 years. I flown with thousands of different pilots.

    I’m just telling you what their overall make up is.

    If you don’t want that piece of information...ignore it
     
    LCDFlight
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    Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:24 am

    SuseJ772 wrote:
    I can’t speak for the article linked (didn’t read it) but did read another one that was more about their flight school acquisition and scholarship. They committed 1.2 million and Chase matched that.

    To CriticalPoint’s point, if the pilot isn’t going to make it, they’ll get washed out in training. No one is going to lower a flying standard at any point along the way (private, Instrument, commercial, atp, commuter on boarding, major on boarding). All United is doing is 1) providing access to training cheaper for groups in the past that haven’t had access, and 2) expressing a goal/hope that if step 1 works, they hope to have a 50/50 split of white male pilots to woman and people of color.

    I am good with all that.


    And will the rates of wash-out be the same for all groups? That’s a very important metric, so of course the decision on who washes out would need to include what group they are in. You might need to hire more pilots at first (of ALL groups), in order to make more wash out, in order to get the numbers to line up while maintaining good standards of pilot training.

    Just saying “they will wash out in training” will not be accepted. Captain ratings will also need to be awarded like this, using “additional factors.” This is complicated. Or, I am willing to believe the process is currently corrupt throughout, and they will just be “removing bias.” That type of simple story is rarely good enough in these important matters.
     
    CriticalPoint
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    Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:45 am

    LCDFlight wrote:
    SuseJ772 wrote:
    I can’t speak for the article linked (didn’t read it) but did read another one that was more about their flight school acquisition and scholarship. They committed 1.2 million and Chase matched that.

    To CriticalPoint’s point, if the pilot isn’t going to make it, they’ll get washed out in training. No one is going to lower a flying standard at any point along the way (private, Instrument, commercial, atp, commuter on boarding, major on boarding). All United is doing is 1) providing access to training cheaper for groups in the past that haven’t had access, and 2) expressing a goal/hope that if step 1 works, they hope to have a 50/50 split of white male pilots to woman and people of color.

    I am good with all that.


    And will the rates of wash-out be the same for all groups? That’s a very important metric, so of course the decision on who washes out would need to include what group they are in. You might need to hire more pilots at first (of ALL groups), in order to make more wash out, in order to get the numbers to line up while maintaining good standards of pilot training.

    Just saying “they will wash out in training” will not be accepted. Captain ratings will also need to be awarded like this, using “additional factors.” This is complicated. Or, I am willing to believe the process is currently corrupt throughout, and they will just be “removing bias.” That type of simple story is rarely good enough in these important matters.


    It doesn’t matter what United wants it’s the FAA that issues licenses.
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

    Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:48 am

    TTailedTiger wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    As a parent of two adult daughters (who are not working in aviation), I hope that more opportunities arise in every profession for qualified people who may not have been given a fair shot in the past.

    The key will be in the execution of this United model. A fine line exists.


    If they are the most qualified then they won't have any issue. Do you believe United or any airline is passing on qualified pilot applicants based on gender or race? If that were true we would see tons of lawsuits.


    When you have a limited number of slots, some qualified pilot applicants will be passed over. I'm sure there are a boat load of Regional pilots on this site who would agree with me.

    As a HR hiring manager before I retired, it's never easy when you have more qualified people then you have positions.
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      DoctorVenkman
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      Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

      Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 am

      The people concern trolling this thread with questions like "how can I know they will be qualified to fly?" clearly didn't read the article or bother to understand what UA is doing here. They are creating a training academy with about half the positions reserved for under-represented groups. That is it. Assuming that UA will be hiring under-qualified pilots because of this is quite frankly a ridiculous assertion that is not based in any sort of reality. This is just an opportunity for under-represented groups to get training.
       
      MohawkWeekend
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      Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

      Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:42 am

      An excerpt From a article written in The Points Guy
      How (and why) Lufthansa trains its pilots in Phoenix, Arizona
      Mike Arnot
      Nov 28, 2019

      "The Lufthansa program begins in Germany, where pilots apply to join. Echoing Lippincott’s statement, Lufthansa takes only one in 10 applicants. Before acceptance, they’ll go through a battery of tests and interviews, both individual and in a group setting. The individual skills test gauges English ability, math and logical thinking, multitasking ability and even motor skills. The group testing phase considers behavior, teamwork and personality."

      It will be interesting to see how an American company does this with our laws and court rulings on bias in selection. Good luck to UAL
        300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
         
        bigb
        Posts: 1282
        Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

        Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of colo

        Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:48 am

        richiemo wrote:
        jfklganyc wrote:
        The problem is pilots are overwhelmingly:

        White

        Male

        Conservative

        From rural or suburban areas


        If you want to change that, you are going to have to open a flight school and pay for underrepresented minorities to train.

        They can do it, but it will be costly.

        Short of doing that, they could set as many slots aside as they want...They are not going to get 50% of their pilot new hires to be underrepresented minorities.

        They won’t even get close to 50%...Because they just don’t exist in that size and scope[How do you know they're conservative??? How do you know>>>]


        It is know in the aviation industry that in the US, majority of your pilots are white male and conservative. Take a look at APC for a little taste, it isn’t uncommon to walk into a crewroom and see Fox News on or hear their conversation on their views on current events (a lot of them have a right wing view.) A lot of those folks take issue to airlines diversity initiatives when it comes to hiring because they feel like their buddies are getting passed up by someone who is less qualifie who is gay, woman, or a person of color...
         
        User avatar
        kitplane01
        Topic Author
        Posts: 1820
        Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

        Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

        Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:03 am

        Aptivaboy wrote:
        They can hire anyone they want training will wash out those who are not qualified.


        Unless they decide to not wash them out in the name of diversity. This is the great problem with these diversity initiatives. They sound great on paper until the rubber literally meets the road. Wash these candidates out and United isn't doing enough to help them succeed. Don't wash them out and the most qualified candidates aren't sitting up front.

        The other issue is that being an equal opportunity employer bound by antidiscrimination laws, initiatives such as this risk being illegal unless written, construed, and applied exceptionally narrowly. Publicly owned corporations literally cannot hire anyone that they want - there are any number of state and federal equal opportunity laws that they must comply with, and reserving employment slots by any definition arguably risks violating those self-same laws. Time will tell what happens here. I make no predictions apart from otherwise qualified applicants who are not hired or retained by United will be doubtless lining up employment law attorneys by the bushel to sue on the basis of reverse discrimination; United's legal department is going to be very busy over the next few years...


        I'm not a lawyer, but what I read says this is not true. In particular "The Department of Labor provides sample affirmative action programs in order to assist employers wishing to comply with the code of federal regulations". https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/e ... plans.html
         
        User avatar
        kitplane01
        Topic Author
        Posts: 1820
        Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

        Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

        Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:05 am

        Question: Where I work and where my children work, all have programs to help hire underrepresented racial groups and gender groups. Do airlines not have these policies? I thought this was very common.
         
        DoctorVenkman
        Posts: 252
        Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 pm

        Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of colo

        Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:11 am

        bigb wrote:
        richiemo wrote:
        jfklganyc wrote:
        The problem is pilots are overwhelmingly:

        White

        Male

        Conservative

        From rural or suburban areas


        If you want to change that, you are going to have to open a flight school and pay for underrepresented minorities to train.

        They can do it, but it will be costly.

        Short of doing that, they could set as many slots aside as they want...They are not going to get 50% of their pilot new hires to be underrepresented minorities.

        They won’t even get close to 50%...Because they just don’t exist in that size and scope[How do you know they're conservative??? How do you know>>>]


        It is know in the aviation industry that in the US, majority of your pilots are white male and conservative. Take a look at APC for a little taste, it isn’t uncommon to walk into a crewroom and see Fox News on or hear their conversation on their views on current events (a lot of them have a right wing view.) A lot of those folks take issue to airlines diversity initiatives when it comes to hiring because they feel like their buddies are getting passed up by someone who is less qualifie who is gay, woman, or a person of color...


        Yeah, the reason the demographics are so white, male and conservative right now is because of the talent pipeline for US pilots comes from two main sources:

        1. Ex military pilots. The US military is largely male and conservative, so it follows that pilots from this background would have similar demographics.
        2. Flight school. Most flight schools cost $50k-100k and only provide 250 hours in the air. The ATP minimum is 1500 hours so you need to either pay out of pocket for the remaining hours or work low-paying jobs like a flight instructor or banner tower. There's also no federal aid to help with flight school costs. It can often take 8-10 years just to get out of debt from flight school if you take this route.

        Because of the upfront costs associated with #2, the long-term payback period of flight school, and lack of federal aid, many people from poorer backgrounds are not able to go down this path. There are plenty of people who would make excellent pilots who never even get their PPL because it is too expensive.

        What UA is trying to do here is to make the second path much more accessible to people from under-represented groups. It has nothing to do with pilot quality. It's a noble goal that I think will make the airline industry more inclusive and better off in the long run.
         
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        qf789
        Moderator
        Posts: 11827
        Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

        Re: United Airlines .. 2,500 new pilot slots reserved for women or people of color

        Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:14 am

        Topic will be locked due to the flamebait and personal attacks
        Forum Moderator

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