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Opus99 wrote:mjoelnir wrote:The grounding problem keeps expanding.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-737 ... lista_pos2
quote: The same production changes also impacted the grounding path of the aircraft’s main instrument panel and the rack that houses the standby power unit, Boeing found during its recent assessments. Those areas must be inspected and modified as well, Boeing said.
And they FAA seems to be dragging it's feet, as it is traditional with problems regarding Boeing.
Boeing itself seems to learned its lesson, grounding frames is better than risking the next crash.
Seems the FAA does not believe it’s worth a grounding
jeffrey0032j wrote:This affects the planes delivered post grounding. Planes delivered pre-grounding are not affected and are still flying. As some of the post grounding planes were built 2 years ago, ie next in line from the pre grounding planes, it seems less like an actual physical issue than something that was incorrectly checked off or left out from a checklist.
FluidFlow wrote:I couldnt access the whole wsj article but a friend told me it affects 460 jets, 90 of which are delivered and Boeing does not know yet how long the fix will take and what impact it will have on airlines.
Opus99 wrote:FluidFlow wrote:I couldnt access the whole wsj article but a friend told me it affects 460 jets, 90 of which are delivered and Boeing does not know yet how long the fix will take and what impact it will have on airlines.
WSJ article says two days for fix
Opus99 wrote:https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/20/boeing-ceo-retirement-age-cfo-smith-retiring.html
CNBC confirms in a video at the bottom of the article that United CEO Scott Kirby says the grounded MAXes with electrical issues will be back at the end of the month
mjoelnir wrote:My question would be, is Boeing or the FAA able to learn from mistakes?
A change so minor that it didn’t require an FAA approval or a review by Boeing employees deputized as agency representatives, is the excuse.
A change that leads to instruments not being grounded is perhaps minor, but I would assume quite dangerous.
And I thought that nothing is allowed to change on an airplane without aproval.
Polot wrote:mjoelnir wrote:My question would be, is Boeing or the FAA able to learn from mistakes?
A change so minor that it didn’t require an FAA approval or a review by Boeing employees deputized as agency representatives, is the excuse.
A change that leads to instruments not be
ing grounded is perhaps minor, but I would assume quite dangerous.
And I thought that nothing is allowed to change on an airplane without aproval.
OEMs/Vendors make small manufacturing changes all the time without running to regulatory authorities, it’s part of the process to streamline and increase output while reducing costs. Equipment breaks and gets repaired/replaced. New employees can be operating equipment. If they had to report and get approval for every change done the FAA/EASA would be swamped and nothing would ever get done. It could be down to something as simple as changing a brush or nozzle that was used to apply coating.
Nomadd wrote:There's way too much back of the cereal box nonsense in here. Grounds that don't meet spec are probably not going to be detectable by measuring and don't have to mean immediate danger. A ground needs to be done so it will still be good decades from now trouble from improperly done ones don't have to be a case for shutting down the whole batch. There are a dozen reasons that someone might want to have a little resistance in a ground path, and current capacity in grounds or optimal resistance isn't always obvious.
Too many usual suspects are pretending to know things they really don't.
Nomadd wrote:There's way too much back of the cereal box nonsense in here. Grounds that don't meet spec are probably not going to be detectable by measuring and don't have to mean immediate danger. A ground needs to be done so it will still be good decades from now trouble from improperly done ones don't have to be a case for shutting down the whole batch. There are a dozen reasons that someone might want to have a little resistance in a ground path, and current capacity in grounds or optimal resistance isn't always obvious.
Too many usual suspects are pretending to know things they really don't.
Ertro wrote:Nomadd wrote:There's way too much back of the cereal box nonsense in here. Grounds that don't meet spec are probably not going to be detectable by measuring and don't have to mean immediate danger. A ground needs to be done so it will still be good decades from now trouble from improperly done ones don't have to be a case for shutting down the whole batch. There are a dozen reasons that someone might want to have a little resistance in a ground path, and current capacity in grounds or optimal resistance isn't always obvious.
Too many usual suspects are pretending to know things they really don't.
None of what you say sounds like anything an electrical engineer would every imagine saying.
Improper grounding might be difficult to detect by measuring and that is a MASSIVE HUGE PROBLEM.
What might happen is that the marginal grounding causes intermittent problems. For example any vibration could cause grounding to flicker at the frequency of the vibration. If there is any device even in some backup rack that has marginal grounding if it is powered on and not just in cold standby the intermittent grounding might change amperage through the device which will then cause power rail voltages also to fluctuate at the frequency of the grounding problem and this power rail voltage fluctuation can cause whatever strange problems anywhere. Or the mechanism how the problem travels to another rack might be through a communication bus between equipments.
In the case of really bad luck that grounding might seem to work if the plane is sitting still at hangar making troubleshooting impossible. Only way to solve the issue is to tear everything apart so the speck of paint in wrong hidden place can be seen when it is not covered by whatever is normally on top of it. The place where there is some strange anomaly happening can be at completely different rack than where the marginal grounding problem is.
iamlucky13 wrote:Revelation wrote:The statement of the media (This change was executed in such a way that it did not provide a complete electrical grounding path to the unit) seems to conflict with the statement of Boeing (inspections are needed to verify “that a sufficient ground path exists” for this control unit).
I'd read that as "may not" rather than "did not". As you noted, Boeing knows more about this than the media does.Revelation wrote:Either way, I would think AMEs are able to replace fasteners with rivets so the way back should not be difficult.
Threaded fasteners can be used for grounding, too, but if the rivets were accomplishing it by filling a hole drilled at installation, then bolts might instead need paint cleaned around the hole.
(Boeing CEO David Calhoun) said Boeing is “finalizing the plans and documentation with the FAA” for a relatively quick fix that will allow airlines to return their airplanes to service.
On CNBC, Calhoun said that work will take only 3 to 4 days per airplane once the FAA approves Boeing’s fix — which consists of changing some fasteners that mount electrical control units behind the pilot in the cockpit and ensuring the units are electrically grounded.
Calhoun said he expects FAA approval in “relatively short order,” so that Boeing can catch up on MAX deliveries in time for the summer recovery in air travel that U.S. airlines are focused on.
Revelation wrote:ST's report on the quarterly results ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ore-losses ) says:(Boeing CEO David Calhoun) said Boeing is “finalizing the plans and documentation with the FAA” for a relatively quick fix that will allow airlines to return their airplanes to service.
On CNBC, Calhoun said that work will take only 3 to 4 days per airplane once the FAA approves Boeing’s fix — which consists of changing some fasteners that mount electrical control units behind the pilot in the cockpit and ensuring the units are electrically grounded.
Calhoun said he expects FAA approval in “relatively short order,” so that Boeing can catch up on MAX deliveries in time for the summer recovery in air travel that U.S. airlines are focused on.
Seems these fasteners aren't easy to access if it is taking 3-4 days per plane to change them out.
I wonder if we'll ever see the details on the fix or not.
Revelation wrote:ST's report on the quarterly results ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ore-losses ) says:(Boeing CEO David Calhoun) said Boeing is “finalizing the plans and documentation with the FAA” for a relatively quick fix that will allow airlines to return their airplanes to service.
On CNBC, Calhoun said that work will take only 3 to 4 days per airplane once the FAA approves Boeing’s fix — which consists of changing some fasteners that mount electrical control units behind the pilot in the cockpit and ensuring the units are electrically grounded.
Calhoun said he expects FAA approval in “relatively short order,” so that Boeing can catch up on MAX deliveries in time for the summer recovery in air travel that U.S. airlines are focused on.
Seems these fasteners aren't easy to access if it is taking 3-4 days per plane to change them out.
I wonder if we'll ever see the details on the fix or not.
iamlucky13 wrote:Revelation wrote:ST's report on the quarterly results ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ore-losses ) says:(Boeing CEO David Calhoun) said Boeing is “finalizing the plans and documentation with the FAA” for a relatively quick fix that will allow airlines to return their airplanes to service.
On CNBC, Calhoun said that work will take only 3 to 4 days per airplane once the FAA approves Boeing’s fix — which consists of changing some fasteners that mount electrical control units behind the pilot in the cockpit and ensuring the units are electrically grounded.
Calhoun said he expects FAA approval in “relatively short order,” so that Boeing can catch up on MAX deliveries in time for the summer recovery in air travel that U.S. airlines are focused on.
Seems these fasteners aren't easy to access if it is taking 3-4 days per plane to change them out.
I wonder if we'll ever see the details on the fix or not.
If the FAA issues an Airworthiness Directive, then we'll at least get some detail in that document. Since Boeing launched into this fix without waiting for an FAA determination whether a grounding was even necessary, I don't know if it would be normal for there to be an AD about an issue that is already being fixed.
iamlucky13 wrote:If the FAA issues an Airworthiness Directive, then we'll at least get some detail in that document. Since Boeing launched into this fix without waiting for an FAA determination whether a grounding was even necessary, I don't know if it would be normal for there to be an AD about an issue that is already being fixed.
Opus99 wrote:FluidFlow wrote:I couldnt access the whole wsj article but a friend told me it affects 460 jets, 90 of which are delivered and Boeing does not know yet how long the fix will take and what impact it will have on airlines.
WSJ article says two days for fix
seahawks7757 wrote:Opus99 wrote:FluidFlow wrote:I couldnt access the whole wsj article but a friend told me it affects 460 jets, 90 of which are delivered and Boeing does not know yet how long the fix will take and what impact it will have on airlines.
WSJ article says two days for fix
What fix? Currently Boeing does not have an FAA approved fix. Hence why the entire Alaska fleet is still grounded and all new deliveries have been halted.
Opus99 wrote:seahawks7757 wrote:Opus99 wrote:WSJ article says two days for fix
What fix? Currently Boeing does not have an FAA approved fix. Hence why the entire Alaska fleet is still grounded and all new deliveries have been halted.
That was what the WSJ article said...he couldn’t access the whole article but now we are hearing 3-4 days
seahawks7757 wrote:Opus99 wrote:seahawks7757 wrote:
What fix? Currently Boeing does not have an FAA approved fix. Hence why the entire Alaska fleet is still grounded and all new deliveries have been halted.
That was what the WSJ article said...he couldn’t access the whole article but now we are hearing 3-4 days
Still not FAA approved yet though. Hopefully they will get approval soon so they can actually fix this issue.
Opus99 wrote:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-28/faa-issues-repair-order-for-boeing-737-max-jet-electrical-parts
Noshow wrote:100 customer aircraft grounded and deliveries halted turned out to be a big issue finally. Four workdays per aircraft is more than a little rework.
It will be okay but this is not the news they need now. Luckily for them the travelling public will not notice anything this time.
Opus99 wrote:Noshow wrote:100 customer aircraft grounded and deliveries halted turned out to be a big issue finally. Four workdays per aircraft is more than a little rework.
It will be okay but this is not the news they need now. Luckily for them the travelling public will not notice anything this time.
FAA says 24 hours. 4 days was from an article
oschkosch wrote:Obviously this is the worst publicity immediately after grounding for Boeing ever imaginable....
And the timeline for the fix sounds rather fuzzy. Hours or days is a big difference!
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 39.articleBoeing says it is “premature” to estimate how long repairs to the jets might take, but adds that the maintenance work could take “a matter of hours or days”.
Noshow wrote:100 customer aircraft grounded and deliveries halted turned out to be a big issue finally. Four workdays per aircraft is more than a little rework.
It will be okay but this is not the news they need now. Luckily for them the travelling public will not notice anything this time.
kiowa wrote:Have they started up again?
Revelation wrote:kiowa wrote:Have they started up again?
Since FAA has not signed off on a fix, I think 'no' is a safe answer.
REDHL wrote:Revelation wrote:kiowa wrote:Have they started up again?
Since FAA has not signed off on a fix, I think 'no' is a safe answer.
To put my two cents on your point, they just reported that the matter will take a little longer than expected, since the FAA asked Boeing to provide additional analysis and documentation to see if the MAX's subsystems would not be affected by the electrical grounding issue.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-05/
REDHL wrote:Revelation wrote:kiowa wrote:Have they started up again?
Since FAA has not signed off on a fix, I think 'no' is a safe answer.
To put my two cents on your point, they just reported that the matter will take a little longer than expected, since the FAA asked Boeing to provide additional analysis and documentation to see if the MAX's subsystems would not be affected by the electrical grounding issue.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-05/
iamlucky13 wrote:REDHL wrote:Revelation wrote:Since FAA has not signed off on a fix, I think 'no' is a safe answer.
To put my two cents on your point, they just reported that the matter will take a little longer than expected, since the FAA asked Boeing to provide additional analysis and documentation to see if the MAX's subsystems would not be affected by the electrical grounding issue.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-05/
I'm confused. That sounds like the kind of information they should want if Boeing was arguing it doesn't need fixing, or if there was a disagreement over whether or not to allow flights to continue prior to fixing the issue.
sxf24 wrote:iamlucky13 wrote:REDHL wrote:
To put my two cents on your point, they just reported that the matter will take a little longer than expected, since the FAA asked Boeing to provide additional analysis and documentation to see if the MAX's subsystems would not be affected by the electrical grounding issue.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-05/
I'm confused. That sounds like the kind of information they should want if Boeing was arguing it doesn't need fixing, or if there was a disagreement over whether or not to allow flights to continue prior to fixing the issue.
I don’t think the FAA is acting normally in this or other situations. They’ve given lower level employees greater authority to ask questions and request information which is leading to a cumbersome, confusing, and erratic process for nearly any decision. The normal folks will say we have what we need and then some other person will pop in and ask for new analysis, restarting the entire process. This is being seen to varying degrees with everything the FAA is doing.
Opus99 wrote:viewtopic.php?t=1459349&start=700
The last post from Jay gives some sort of insight. Apparently FAA and Boeing being extra careful and don’t want to look like they’re rushing things.
Opus99 wrote:This review is interesting. If they want more analysis that it doesn’t affect other parts, won’t the fix still fix it anyway or is it more complicated than that? It must be
Revelation wrote:Opus99 wrote:viewtopic.php?t=1459349&start=700
The last post from Jay gives some sort of insight. Apparently FAA and Boeing being extra careful and don’t want to look like they’re rushing things.
It would not surprise me if this one caused some sort of reaction within the FAA. Recall one thing they did after the tragedy was remove Boeing's ability to sign off on the planes it manufactured. Now, FAA itself signs off on each airplane. In other words, this all happened on FAA's watch. They must feel pretty burned and wonder how they let this happen. It seems to be turning into a tutorial on electrical grounding for everyone involved.Opus99 wrote:This review is interesting. If they want more analysis that it doesn’t affect other parts, won’t the fix still fix it anyway or is it more complicated than that? It must be
We have no way of knowing if the analysis is directly related to the manufacturing change, or if it is FAA just double-checking that other subsystems have sufficient electrical grounding.
hooverman wrote:sxf24 wrote:iamlucky13 wrote:
I'm confused. That sounds like the kind of information they should want if Boeing was arguing it doesn't need fixing, or if there was a disagreement over whether or not to allow flights to continue prior to fixing the issue.
I don’t think the FAA is acting normally in this or other situations. They’ve given lower level employees greater authority to ask questions and request information which is leading to a cumbersome, confusing, and erratic process for nearly any decision. The normal folks will say we have what we need and then some other person will pop in and ask for new analysis, restarting the entire process. This is being seen to varying degrees with everything the FAA is doing.
I guess nothing happened in the past that made it come this far?
Opus99 wrote:https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1459349&start=700
The last post from Jay gives some sort of insight. Apparently FAA and Boeing being extra careful and don’t want to look like they’re rushing things.
This review is interesting. If they want more analysis that it doesn’t affect other parts, won’t the fix still fix it anyway or is it more complicated than that? It must be