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Polot
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 11:14 am

Alfons wrote:
Does anyone know what this means technically? Realtime inflight tracking (I thought that's not possible over large water areas)? And if yes, for what purpose?

Most 737Maxs are not being operated over large water areas- it is not a long range intercontinental widebody. The FAA is making sure there are not a lot of inflight anomalies after the MCAS fix.
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 4:57 pm

I know we have an estimation of the labor for the fixes ( 9 to 24 hours per airplane ) but do we have any details of what the fix entails? Adding new grounding paths, restoring old deleted or insufficient grounding paths, changing fasteners, scraping paint, what?
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 7:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
I know we have an estimation of the labor for the fixes ( 9 to 24 hours per airplane ) but do we have any details of what the fix entails? Adding new grounding paths, restoring old deleted or insufficient grounding paths, changing fasteners, scraping paint, what?


Is it two locations or three?
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Vicenza
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 7:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
I know we have an estimation of the labor for the fixes ( 9 to 24 hours per airplane ) but do we have any details of what the fix entails? Adding new grounding paths, restoring old deleted or insufficient grounding paths, changing fasteners, scraping paint, what?


Am curious, but how do you 'delete an old, or insufficient grounding path'....or restore it?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 8:28 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I know we have an estimation of the labor for the fixes ( 9 to 24 hours per airplane ) but do we have any details of what the fix entails? Adding new grounding paths, restoring old deleted or insufficient grounding paths, changing fasteners, scraping paint, what?


Am curious, but how do you 'delete an old, or insufficient grounding path'....or restore it?

One possibility is an existing ground path just offered too much resistance or too little current handling so needed to be replaced. There's a reason why ground straps come in different sizes. Power is current squared times resistance so a small increase in current can make a large difference in required power handling. Maybe there was some change somewhere along the line from Jurassic to MAX that went un-detected?

Adding things back refers to the possibility that the change to simplify manufacturing may have deleted ground paths (i.e. rely on fasteners to provide ground path rather than explicit ground straps) that now need to be restored.

These are just guesses. I was hoping we'd be able to learn more about the fix, but it seems like Team B has kept the details to itself, at least so far.
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 1:20 am

AvWk quoted The Air Current saying the fix includes adding 20 studs and 6 jumpers on the panel behind the co-pilots seat and 5 studs and 6 jumpers on the main instrument panel.

This affected 106 deliveried planes (90 in use) and 370 undelivered planes.
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 3:18 am

ikolkyo wrote:
FAA has cleared Boeing’s fix for this issue. Hopefully this is the last of the problems on the MAX. https://t.co/Q7REe2mZBc


from the article

"The electrical issue emerged after Boeing changed a manufacturing method as it worked to speed up production of the jetliner, a third person said. A fourth person said the change improved a hole-drilling process"

I sense this is something serious here.

This should not be something left to Boeing anymore. All max issues have been caused by attempts to speed things up and it keeps grounding the aircraft more and more.

I hope the FAA is involved with any upcoming changes and "improvements" on the MAX before Boeing does them especially any improvements done in the name of speeding up production.
 
milhaus
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 3:52 am

Hmm, inadeqate grounding path should be reason why those selsyns in AOA sensors failed so often on MAXs. I do not believe that Lion Air engineer did not perform test after replacement, this test is quite easy to be done. I know that shop which repaired this sensor was closed by FAA, but there is no confirmation that sensor was faulty after overhail
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 3:58 am

milhaus wrote:
Hmm, inadeqate grounding path should be reason why those selsyns in AOA sensors failed so often on MAXs. I do not believe that Lion Air engineer did not perform test after replacement, this test is quite easy to be done. I know that shop which repaired this sensor was closed by FAA, but there is no confirmation that sensor was faulty after overhail

If that were the case it would be in the accident reports. You shouldn't make stuff up and speculate like that.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 5:12 am

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... to-flight/

This article gives a deep dive. Honestly, the production change was so unnecessary because all it did was change the order in which they did things. I don’t know how this will have sped up the process of building the plane
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 5:13 am

randomdude83 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
FAA has cleared Boeing’s fix for this issue. Hopefully this is the last of the problems on the MAX. https://t.co/Q7REe2mZBc


from the article

"The electrical issue emerged after Boeing changed a manufacturing method as it worked to speed up production of the jetliner, a third person said. A fourth person said the change improved a hole-drilling process"

I sense this is something serious here.

This should not be something left to Boeing anymore. All max issues have been caused by attempts to speed things up and it keeps grounding the aircraft more and more.

I hope the FAA is involved with any upcoming changes and "improvements" on the MAX before Boeing does them especially any improvements done in the name of speeding up production.

Except if you actually look at this problem please help me identify how this would speed up the process
 
milhaus
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 5:20 am

To planecane:How You can find it on plane which is completely destroyed? Being an AML with 10 years on maintenance control centre experience I have to say that inadeqate grounding is sometimes reason for erratic system behiavour and its really hard to find it.
 
KDAL
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 5:36 am

milhaus wrote:
To planecane:How You can find it on plane which is completely destroyed? Being an AML with 10 years on maintenance control centre experience I have to say that inadeqate grounding is sometimes reason for erratic system behiavour and its really hard to find it.

The vast majority of aircraft manufactured before the MCAS grounding are unaffected by this production change. So, no, this is not related in the slightest. This change was implemented in early '19. Both accident aircraft were manufactured before that.
All opinions and views expressed are my own and not representative of those of Southwest Airlines Co., its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 11:33 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/faa-approves-boeings-fix-for-737-max-electrical-flaw-clearing-the-way-for-return-to-flight/

This article gives a deep dive. Honestly, the production change was so unnecessary because all it did was change the order in which they did things. I don’t know how this will have sped up the process of building the plane


The number of holes bored was reduced and only one set of boring operations instead of two. The old way was boring, painting, assembling and boring again for clean metal connection. The new operation was boring, painting and assembling, no clean grounding path.

It seems, that there were also some "old" grounding problems to clean up. Two straps connecting the rack onward. If one strap broke, the other would not carry the full grounding load. Perhaps from the old days when fewer instruments/controllers needed grounding.

One quote:

In 2018, an internal quality-control audit that monitored 1,200 “Bond and Ground” jobs on the 747, 767 and 777 airplane programs in Everett found that only 93 percent of the sampled jobs were properly performed, failing to meet the prescribed engineering target.

points to a lax attitude at Boeing in regards to grounding and inspection of that work.
 
saab2000
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 12:03 pm

Polot wrote:
Alfons wrote:
Does anyone know what this means technically? Realtime inflight tracking (I thought that's not possible over large water areas)? And if yes, for what purpose?

Most 737Maxs are not being operated over large water areas- it is not a long range intercontinental widebody. The FAA is making sure there are not a lot of inflight anomalies after the MCAS fix.


The MAX series of aircraft will be used a lot over water, especially between the US mainland and Hawaii. I am glad for the extra scrutiny of all things MAX because it's an airplane I will fly a lot between now and my retirement from aviation in a decade or so.
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 12:45 pm

Alfons wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
FAA has cleared Boeing’s fox for this issue. Hopefully this is the last of the problems on the MAX. https://t.co/Q7REe2mZBc

Interesting part from above article:

In February, the FAA said it was tracking all Boeing 737 MAX airplanes using satellite data under an agreement with air traffic surveillance firm Aireon LLC.

Does anyone know what this means technically? Realtime inflight tracking (I thought that's not possible over large water areas)? And if yes, for what purpose?

Thanks.
Alfons

More info from

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... satellites

The Federal Aviation Administration is using a network of satellites capable of tracking planes in even the most remote regions as if they were under surveillance by local radars, according to the agency. The data is being provided by Virginia-based Aireon LLC, the FAA said in an emailed statement on Friday.

Aireon, which reached an agreement in November to provide the FAA with expanded flight data, is tracking Max flights for unusual events, such as rapid descents, said Vincent Capezzuto, the company’s chief technology officer. The monitoring began Jan. 29, Capezzuto said during a Feb. 12 webinar hosted by Aviation Week.

“Recently, we engaged with them on a 737 Max monitor,” he said. “You can literally monitor it on a situational awareness display.”

If any unusual events occur on the plane, “safety engineers and inspectors will use the early notification to further analyze the incident,” the FAA said.

The analogy to radar isn't a bad one, given the radar makes periodic sweeps. I'm thinking they have the airplane send periodic position reports, along with instantaneous notification of abnormal events. This is possible, they are using the Iridium satellite network when out of range of land based stations. Apparently it is affordable enough, but I don't have any insight on what it costs.

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/faa-approves-boeings-fix-for-737-max-electrical-flaw-clearing-the-way-for-return-to-flight/

This article gives a deep dive. Honestly, the production change was so unnecessary because all it did was change the order in which they did things. I don’t know how this will have sped up the process of building the plane

The number of holes bored was reduced and only one set of boring operations instead of two. The old way was boring, painting, assembling and boring again for clean metal connection. The new operation was boring, painting and assembling, no clean grounding path.

It seems, that there were also some "old" grounding problems to clean up. Two straps connecting the rack onward. If one strap broke, the other would not carry the full grounding load. Perhaps from the old days when fewer instruments/controllers needed grounding.

One quote:

In 2018, an internal quality-control audit that monitored 1,200 “Bond and Ground” jobs on the 747, 767 and 777 airplane programs in Everett found that only 93 percent of the sampled jobs were properly performed, failing to meet the prescribed engineering target.

points to a lax attitude at Boeing in regards to grounding and inspection of that work.

We should point out some of the stuff posted in this thread earlier was right, other stuff was wrong.

It did have to do with painting/priming as @BoeingGuy said shortly after the news broke.

It did not have anything to do with fasteners, that was false information.

The Gates article quotes a source as saying the 737 family has relied on the frames themselves to conduct electricity thus be a part of the ground plane, but the path became degraded due to the priming change, and the new change adds ground straps to assure good electrical conductivity.

I presume use of these grounding straps will be the new production standard, but the Gates article does not say that explicitly.

It'd be interesting to know if the net effect (speedups during assembly of racks minus time to install new ground straps) makes the whole change series a net loser in terms of assembly time and labor.

The Gates article says the problem was found when the backup power system was being tested prior to final customer delivery. It did not say if this test involved trying to start an engine or not.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 12:57 pm

randomdude83 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
FAA has cleared Boeing’s fix for this issue. Hopefully this is the last of the problems on the MAX. https://t.co/Q7REe2mZBc


from the article

"The electrical issue emerged after Boeing changed a manufacturing method as it worked to speed up production of the jetliner, a third person said. A fourth person said the change improved a hole-drilling process"

I sense this is something serious here.

This should not be something left to Boeing anymore. All max issues have been caused by attempts to speed things up and it keeps grounding the aircraft more and more.

I hope the FAA is involved with any upcoming changes and "improvements" on the MAX before Boeing does them especially any improvements done in the name of speeding up production.

The Gates article quoted a FAA source as saying that this was "a minor design change that did not require regulatory approval" and now FAA would conduct an audit of Boeing's process for making such design changes across its product line.

Seems they have conducted a successful CYA maneuver.

ADent wrote:
AvWk quoted The Air Current saying the fix includes adding 20 studs and 6 jumpers on the panel behind the co-pilots seat and 5 studs and 6 jumpers on the main instrument panel.

This affected 106 deliveried planes (90 in use) and 370 undelivered planes.

Thanks for the detailed information.

Seems to be a good time to be in the ground strap business.
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milhaus
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 3:41 pm

12 jumpers does not add so much business as there are hundreds maybe thousands on each aircraft already.
 
jetskipper
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 3:58 pm

All UA 737 MAX9s are back in service.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 5:19 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/faa-approves-boeings-fix-for-737-max-electrical-flaw-clearing-the-way-for-return-to-flight/

This article gives a deep dive. Honestly, the production change was so unnecessary because all it did was change the order in which they did things. I don’t know how this will have sped up the process of building the plane


The article doesn't give a deep enough dive on its own to understand really what and why.

I've got some exposure to manufacturing planning, and when I read the description it immediately jumped out at me that whatever the exact part in question was, it most likely was being fabricated to overall shape, coated, and then holes drilled.

Perhaps this is the sort of part that previously did not have the holes drilled until installation, which due to the size of many of the parts and how tight the tolerances often are, is common in aerostructures. Or possibly drilling post-coating was specifically for the grounding path, and there simply was not clear enough documentation kept or a thorough enough documentation review done (assuming the current rack design was implemented in the NG, we're talking about records going back 20 years) to catch that when the fabrication change was decided on. What we do know is that the change was made early in the grounding, before Boeing seemed to have taken the message to heart that they need a renewed emphasis on thoroughness.

Regardless, machining a part, coating it, and then sending it back for more machining is extra work. Drilling upon installation, if that was the original method, is even more work, slows down final assembly line flow, and creates extra FOD control requirements. I know not just Boeing, but also Airbus, Embraer, and all the structures suppliers are regularly looking for opportunities to reduce the complexity of fabrication and assembly plans for cost and time savings, and opportunities to reduce FOD in the first place.

Revelation wrote:
The Gates article quoted a FAA source as saying that this was "a minor design change that did not require regulatory approval" and now FAA would conduct an audit of Boeing's process for making such design changes across its product line.

Seems they have conducted a successful CYA maneuver.


The CYA maneuver would be "The FAA verified Boeing has a process in place for making design changes and wrote a sternly worded letter that the process should be followed." Auditing the processes means reviewing how they are intended to work and whether that is sufficient, and verifying they actually do follow the processes. It should also include for this instance, determining how the escape happened.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 14, 2021 11:55 pm

From Gates's article:

Dwight Schaeffer, a retired Boeing senior manager who headed the company’s former avionics unit, said adding such grounding wires has become the standard way these electronics panels are designed.

More recently designed planes than the 737 “don’t use the rack as a ground path,” Schaeffer said. “They use these bonding straps instead.”


I know that criticizing the MAX as the latest chewing gum and bailing wire prop-up of a half century old airplane design long ago got tiresome for many people, but it sounds like someone at BCA said hey, when you get handed lemons make lemonade -- let's take the opportunity the MCAS grounding has provided to move this part of the manufacturing process into the 21st century.
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planecane
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 15, 2021 4:31 am

milhaus wrote:
To planecane:How You can find it on plane which is completely destroyed? Being an AML with 10 years on maintenance control centre experience I have to say that inadeqate grounding is sometimes reason for erratic system behiavour and its really hard to find it.

Because the investigators would have analyzed the design of the sensors and how they were connected electrically. They may not have known for sure if it caused the failure but if it was possible it would have been noted.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 15, 2021 7:42 pm

AA's N318SF is the first affected Max to return to revenue service today.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 15, 2021 7:45 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
jeffrey0032j wrote:
AA's N318SF is the first affected Max to return to revenue service today.

Blue Air MAX 8 delivered earlier this year also operated this morning into London Heathrow.
 
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ATSS
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 16, 2021 1:32 am

Two of Alaska's Max 9 have been repaired. N915AK has returned to SEA and N918AK is in the air. Both aircraft repaired in OKC.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 19, 2021 2:12 pm

Regarding UA's 30 739MAX units:
12 of 13 that were not involved in groundings are flying. (One parked in SAN today).

17 units that were grounded:
- 5 are flying today (plus 1 that is parked in PDX for the day)
- 7 have not flown or resumed revenue service since grounding. DEN X2, IAH X2, IAD, SFO and PHX.
- 3 others (after positioning ferries) are at TPA, LAX and IAD.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 19, 2021 2:16 pm

24 man hours per plane and 200 dollars material cost according to AD sounds doable.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 19, 2021 7:34 pm

Deliveries resume today with a Southwest 737MAX heading to Phoenix from Boeing field
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 19, 2021 8:08 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
Regarding UA's 30 739MAX units:
12 of 13 that were not involved in groundings are flying. (One parked in SAN today).

17 units that were grounded:
- 5 are flying today (plus 1 that is parked in PDX for the day)
- 7 have not flown or resumed revenue service since grounding. DEN X2, IAH X2, IAD, SFO and PHX.
- 3 others (after positioning ferries) are at TPA, LAX and IAD.

https://twitter.com/byerussell/status/1 ... 59493?s=21

Reuters reporting United say all have been fixed. I genuinely thought it would take longer than that
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 19, 2021 8:35 pm

Thanks Opus99, it may take a week to get them all back into the air, but good to hear repairs are complete.
 
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REDHL
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 21, 2021 2:15 pm

Four of seven Copa's recently acquired MAX 9 aircraft have returned back into service:

    HP-9909CMP - Scheduled to fly to PUJ today
    HP-9910CMP - RTS yesterday with a flight to MIA
    HP-9911CMP - RTS yesterday with a flight to MIA
    HP-9913CMP - RTS yesterday with a flight to LAX

HP-9907CMP, HP-9908CMP, and HP-9912CMP are yet to be reactivated.
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 21, 2021 2:31 pm

Opus99 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
Regarding UA's 30 739MAX units:
12 of 13 that were not involved in groundings are flying. (One parked in SAN today).

17 units that were grounded:
- 5 are flying today (plus 1 that is parked in PDX for the day)
- 7 have not flown or resumed revenue service since grounding. DEN X2, IAH X2, IAD, SFO and PHX.
- 3 others (after positioning ferries) are at TPA, LAX and IAD.

https://twitter.com/byerussell/status/1 ... 59493?s=21

Reuters reporting United say all have been fixed. I genuinely thought it would take longer than that

Yes, and TFA says AA has installed the fixes on 14 of 18 impacted aircraft.

I'm still interested in seeing the detailed Service Bulletin.

Given how fast these aircraft are RTS, the 24 hours of labor per aircraft thing seems to be a worst case estimate.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
TMccrury
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 21, 2021 3:14 pm

Grounding issues can be a legit nightmare to find sometimes. I work in the audio engineering and last night we had a buzz coming from an instrument. We spent 30 minutes tracing it back to the origin of a broken wire on one pin of a mic cable. I've had other times where we spent days looking for the ground loop. In 1999, I was on a US Navy ship for sea trials. The amount of grounding was astounding. Everything thing was 3 conductor plus a separate ground wire in addition. So, I'm glad they found it the problem and have been able to rectify the issue.
 
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 23, 2021 2:54 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
All of United's 30 739MAXs are flying 5/23/21.

Seems this issue is fading into the rear view mirror.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
SWADawg
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 23, 2021 3:18 pm

Boy that was one short grounding, badabump... Be sure to tip your waitress on the way out. :bigthumbsup:
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 23, 2021 3:22 pm

All of AA's affected Max were back in service by yesterday.

WN's first affected frame to return to service is N8812Q, which flew its first RTS flight yesterday.
 
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REDHL
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 23, 2021 6:11 pm

CM's HP-9907CMP and HP-9908CMP returned to service today.

HP-9912CMP is the only one pending for reintroduction.
 
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REDHL
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:37 pm

All of CM's MAX 9s affected by the issue are now back into service.

HP-9912CMP, the last frame pending, has returned to revenue service today with a LAX-bound flight.

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