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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 05, 2021 5:46 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
The information given so far, however, indicates a specific issue, and a specific fix. The latest objection raised has not been reported as an insufficiency in the fix or a question whether the same concern exists elsewhere (already answered affirmative, and included in the AD), but as concern over what would happen if not fixed (Reuters: "The FAA has ...asked for additional analysis over whether other jet subsystems would be affected by the grounding issue").

I read this differently than you do. The proposed fix says there are three areas that need to be fixed. I don't see how it rules out other places that also may need fixing. I read the request for additional analysis as FAA searching for other subsystems that may need fixing beyond the three that have been already discovered.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 05, 2021 6:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
The information given so far, however, indicates a specific issue, and a specific fix. The latest objection raised has not been reported as an insufficiency in the fix or a question whether the same concern exists elsewhere (already answered affirmative, and included in the AD), but as concern over what would happen if not fixed (Reuters: "The FAA has ...asked for additional analysis over whether other jet subsystems would be affected by the grounding issue").

I read this differently than you do. The proposed fix says there are three areas that need to be fixed. I don't see how it rules out other places that also may need fixing. I read the request for additional analysis as FAA searching for other subsystems that may need fixing beyond the three that have been already discovered.


I see two possible readings of, "whether other just subsystems would be affected by the ground issue":

(1) Whether a fault occurring due to improper grounding on one of the known 3 panels causes faults in other systems. Fix the grounding issue, and this concern is moot.

(2) Whether other subsystems have the same grounding issue. This is more of a record review exercise than an analysis. More importantly, this does not prevent implementing the fix of the known issues - it would make no sense to forbid fixing a potential safety issue because you also want to look for separate safety issues.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Wed May 05, 2021 10:50 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
I see two possible readings of, "whether other just subsystems would be affected by the ground issue":

(1) Whether a fault occurring due to improper grounding on one of the known 3 panels causes faults in other systems. Fix the grounding issue, and this concern is moot.

I'm not sure why that would be of anything but academic interest. I imagine the fix would be in the 1E6 error rate category.

iamlucky13 wrote:
(2) Whether other subsystems have the same grounding issue. This is more of a record review exercise than an analysis. More importantly, this does not prevent implementing the fix of the known issues - it would make no sense to forbid fixing a potential safety issue because you also want to look for separate safety issues.

Are you suggesting this further exercise will find nothing to add to the fix?
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iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 12:00 am

Revelation wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
I see two possible readings of, "whether other just subsystems would be affected by the ground issue":

(1) Whether a fault occurring due to improper grounding on one of the known 3 panels causes faults in other systems. Fix the grounding issue, and this concern is moot.

I'm not sure why that would be of anything but academic interest. I imagine the fix would be in the 1E6 error rate category.


Precisely. The use of the specific article "the" instead of the general article "a" would suggest this interpretation (whether "the" problem currently known would cause issues with other systems), but the risk after fixing it should be extremely low.

Revelation wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
(2) Whether other subsystems have the same grounding issue. This is more of a record review exercise than an analysis. More importantly, this does not prevent implementing the fix of the known issues - it would make no sense to forbid fixing a potential safety issue because you also want to look for separate safety issues.

Are you suggesting this further exercise will find nothing to add to the fix?


No, I'm suggesting that if the exercise is looking for other things that need fixing, it should not mean holding up fixing the things we already know need fixing.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 1:48 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
I see two possible readings of, "whether other just subsystems would be affected by the ground issue":

(1) Whether a fault occurring due to improper grounding on one of the known 3 panels causes faults in other systems. Fix the grounding issue, and this concern is moot.

I'm not sure why that would be of anything but academic interest. I imagine the fix would be in the 1E6 error rate category.

Precisely. The use of the specific article "the" instead of the general article "a" would suggest this interpretation (whether "the" problem currently known would cause issues with other systems), but the risk after fixing it should be extremely low.

If we're going to parse words, it could also be that other subsystems potentially have "the ground issue" i.e. at some point in time fasteners replaced rivets, and now FAA wants a renewed analysis of what may have been done to verify the grounding situation for these other subsystems.

iamlucky13 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
(2) Whether other subsystems have the same grounding issue. This is more of a record review exercise than an analysis. More importantly, this does not prevent implementing the fix of the known issues - it would make no sense to forbid fixing a potential safety issue because you also want to look for separate safety issues.

Are you suggesting this further exercise will find nothing to add to the fix?

No, I'm suggesting that if the exercise is looking for other things that need fixing, it should not mean holding up fixing the things we already know need fixing.

Seems like an optimistic interpretation to me, given that those fixes are on hold right now.
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sxf24
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 2:48 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
(2) Whether other subsystems have the same grounding issue. This is more of a record review exercise than an analysis. More importantly, this does not prevent implementing the fix of the known issues - it would make no sense to forbid fixing a potential safety issue because you also want to look for separate safety issues.

Are you suggesting this further exercise will find nothing to add to the fix?


No, I'm suggesting that if the exercise is looking for other things that need fixing, it should not mean holding up fixing the things we already know need fixing.


This has been the historic approach for OEMs and regulators: if you find a problem, you determine the root cause and correct. You don’t keep searching for unrelated problems is a good way to be forever paralyzed.
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 2:53 pm

sxf24 wrote:
This has been the historic approach for OEMs and regulators: if you find a problem, you determine the root cause and correct. You don’t keep searching for unrelated problems is a good way to be forever paralyzed.

Historically, Boeing largely self-certified, pressured Congress for even more self-certification, and pressured senior FAA management to meet its schedule demands.

I guess one reason we study history is because things do change.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 6:09 pm

sxf24 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Are you suggesting this further exercise will find nothing to add to the fix?


No, I'm suggesting that if the exercise is looking for other things that need fixing, it should not mean holding up fixing the things we already know need fixing.


This has been the historic approach for OEMs and regulators: if you find a problem, you determine the root cause and correct. You don’t keep searching for unrelated problems is a good way to be forever paralyzed.


The problem seems to be that Boeing either does not know, or perhaps does not care about proper grounding. I assume a wake up call for the FAA.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 7:27 pm

Significant MAX movement today out of Boeing Field. More than it has been over the past few weeks. About 5 test flights today, the past few weeks it has been none or 1, lucky if you get 2 and a new frame flew out of Renton today
 
nikeherc
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 06, 2021 7:45 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:

The problem seems to be that Boeing either does not know, or perhaps does not care about proper grounding. I assume a wake up call for the FAA.


That is a cynical statement. Of course Boeing knows about electrical grounding and cares about it. A manufacturing process was changed for some reason and it impacted grounding in a limited number of areas. With something as complex as an airliner, things may interact in strange ways. It would appear that overall grounding was fine until this change was made, which was probably for ease of assembly. Engineer of manufacture is a complex engineering discipline in itself and not all changes are as benign as they might at first seem.

Since the error was found when a new airplane would not start, one would assume that the problem was not one that manifested itself in every aircraft at every use. It has the potential to cause a problem, which it did in at least one known instance. The problem was identified and a fix is in progress.
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 12:07 am

nikeherc wrote:
The problem was identified and a fix is in progress.


I'd say the entire extent of the issue is being evaluated. Once the extent of the issues (more than just the one backup panel now) are known, then direction will be given towards fixing the issue. At present, they are deciding on how many fixes there are to administer.

I first saw the announcement of the grounding 4 weeks ago, April 9th.... So does that mean that these 90 affected planes have already been grounded for almost a month already? Good grief. Hard to be a MAX owner these days.
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 6:14 am

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
The problem was identified and a fix is in progress.


I'd say the entire extent of the issue is being evaluated. Once the extent of the issues (more than just the one backup panel now) are known, then direction will be given towards fixing the issue. At present, they are deciding on how many fixes there are to administer.

I first saw the announcement of the grounding 4 weeks ago, April 9th.... So does that mean that these 90 affected planes have already been grounded for almost a month already? Good grief. Hard to be a MAX owner these days.

A service bulletin was approved by the FAA last week. They have requested extra documentation that it does not affect anywhere else. How do you think they discovered the other places in the first place?

Yes, the 90 planes have been grounded for a month, those same airlines will still come back and buy more. Hope you’re not losing sleep for them though
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am

Opus99 wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
The problem was identified and a fix is in progress.


I'd say the entire extent of the issue is being evaluated. Once the extent of the issues (more than just the one backup panel now) are known, then direction will be given towards fixing the issue. At present, they are deciding on how many fixes there are to administer.

I first saw the announcement of the grounding 4 weeks ago, April 9th.... So does that mean that these 90 affected planes have already been grounded for almost a month already? Good grief. Hard to be a MAX owner these days.

A service bulletin was approved by the FAA last week. They have requested extra documentation that it does not affect anywhere else. How do you think they discovered the other places in the first place?

Yes, the 90 planes have been grounded for a month, those same airlines will still come back and buy more. Hope you’re not losing sleep for them though


Of course they do, it could almost be a tactic for Boeing to ground aircraft so that the customers get credits and have to use them on new aircraft. WN getting MAX-7 so cheap they did not even had to make an RFP because they knew no one could or would match the discounts. Everyone that orders MAX now and had some on order before (returning customers) get the deals of a lifetime. Unfortunately for Boeing that does not bring any money (most probably they even lose money on every frame delivered as seen by the negative cash flow at the moment), but it keeps the production line running.

I would say the month grounding got some airlines (or lessors) another 300'000-400'000$ (MAX lease rates are at around 250'000$: https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/why-leasing-market-is-shedding-737-max-orders/138023.article) credit per aircraft. Luckily for Boeing only 90 were out there and not all 400+ affected ones.

Now together with the work to find a fix, certification, inspection of the aircraft, fixing the aircraft, compensation etc. the damage for Boeing is probably over 100m$. In normal times that is a miniscule amount, but when you are already burning money like wildfire, this does not help and cripples the turn around.

If it drags on for another month (though I do not think so) it could add another quarter till Boeing is cash flow positive.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 10:29 am

This is just a continuing spiral.... when does Boeing get its act together?
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 10:39 am

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
This is just a continuing spiral.... when does Boeing get its act together?

Can we get the timings of this right as well please. This change Incorporation happened before Boeing’s restructuring and refocus plan really started. This is not a continuing spiral. Their refocus is what is actually allowing them to deal with this appropriately. It sucks yes. Should it have been more scrutinised yes, but in 2019, there were clearly a lot of things Boeing was doing wrong
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 10:49 am

Can they fix the new way of mounting their equipment or will they go back to the original method?
 
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 11:11 am

Perhaps you should start by asking, in the new reality, will the FAA allow Boeing to return to the old method?
Once you have an answer to that question, one can then ask, can Boeing actually fix the problem?

Now that the FAA is more deeply involved in Boeing activities, in this reality we cannot still talk about what Boeing did prior, we now have to deal with the new MAX reality, and in this reality, the FAA as of now is in both hands and feet.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Fri May 07, 2021 11:22 am

par13del wrote:
Perhaps you should start by asking, in the new reality, will the FAA allow Boeing to return to the old method?
Once you have an answer to that question, one can then ask, can Boeing actually fix the problem?

Now that the FAA is more deeply involved in Boeing activities, in this reality we cannot still talk about what Boeing did prior, we now have to deal with the new MAX reality, and in this reality, the FAA as of now is in both hands and feet.

They can fix it and they have fixed it
 
hooverman
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 08, 2021 7:46 am

Opus99 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Perhaps you should start by asking, in the new reality, will the FAA allow Boeing to return to the old method?
Once you have an answer to that question, one can then ask, can Boeing actually fix the problem?

Now that the FAA is more deeply involved in Boeing activities, in this reality we cannot still talk about what Boeing did prior, we now have to deal with the new MAX reality, and in this reality, the FAA as of now is in both hands and feet.

They can fix it and they have fixed it


Are the planes flying? If yes they fixed it. If no they haven't fixed it.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 08, 2021 8:49 am

hooverman wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Perhaps you should start by asking, in the new reality, will the FAA allow Boeing to return to the old method?
Once you have an answer to that question, one can then ask, can Boeing actually fix the problem?

Now that the FAA is more deeply involved in Boeing activities, in this reality we cannot still talk about what Boeing did prior, we now have to deal with the new MAX reality, and in this reality, the FAA as of now is in both hands and feet.

They can fix it and they have fixed it


Are the planes flying? If yes they fixed it. If no they haven't fixed it.

Okay. There is a fix.
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 08, 2021 8:54 am

par13del wrote:
Perhaps you should start by asking, in the new reality, will the FAA allow Boeing to return to the old method?
Once you have an answer to that question, one can then ask, can Boeing actually fix the problem?

Now that the FAA is more deeply involved in Boeing activities, in this reality we cannot still talk about what Boeing did prior, we now have to deal with the new MAX reality, and in this reality, the FAA as of now is in both hands and feet.



We have been presented with stories that there was the overwhelming pressure right from the top of BCA to do everything as cheaply as possible and to have it finished yesterday - with MCAS the worst, but certainly not the only example coming to light.


I hope that I am not being too optimistic, but I see every reason to assess the current situation as one where safety is everything at BCA in 2021, rather than a "nice to have" which really had been sidelined - at least in the minds of the most senior staff.

All that pressure has gone - or should have.
Anyone still operating like that is actually letting their workmates and BCA down, as well as the travelling public and the airlines buying the planes.

And risks jail-time.

:tombstone:

cheers
Billy
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 08, 2021 9:18 am

brindabella wrote:
par13del wrote:
Perhaps you should start by asking, in the new reality, will the FAA allow Boeing to return to the old method?
Once you have an answer to that question, one can then ask, can Boeing actually fix the problem?

Now that the FAA is more deeply involved in Boeing activities, in this reality we cannot still talk about what Boeing did prior, we now have to deal with the new MAX reality, and in this reality, the FAA as of now is in both hands and feet.



We have been presented with stories that there was the overwhelming pressure right from the top of BCA to do everything as cheaply as possible and to have it finished yesterday - with MCAS the worst, but certainly not the only example coming to light.


I hope that I am not being too optimistic, but I see every reason to assess the current situation as one where safety is everything at BCA in 2021, rather than a "nice to have" which really had been sidelined - at least in the minds of the most senior staff.

All that pressure has gone - or should have.
Anyone still operating like that is actually letting their workmates and BCA down, as well as the travelling public and the airlines buying the planes.

And risks jail-time.

:tombstone:

cheers

Exactly and I use the 787 as an example of that change. That was the only aircraft really making them money at the time. Especially during covid. They halted deliveries for 6 months. It wasn’t meant to take that long but management allowed the engineers to do their work and during the earnings call they said the engineers started off slow because of how complex the fix is but are coming down a learning curve. So each fix is faster than the previous because they’ve developed a more thorough understanding. Like I’ve said a previous Boeing would not give engineers that space.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sat May 08, 2021 11:33 pm

Has Alaska finally gotten it's 4 MAX Planes in the air yet?
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 10:07 am

nikeherc wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:


That is a cynical statement. Of course Boeing knows about electrical grounding and cares about it. A manufacturing process was changed for some reason and it impacted grounding in a limited number of areas. With something as complex as an airliner, things may interact in strange ways. It would appear that overall grounding was fine until this change was made, which was probably for ease of assembly. Engineer of manufacture is a complex engineering discipline in itself and not all changes are as benign as they might at first seem.

Since the error was found when a new airplane would not start, one would assume that the problem was not one that manifested itself in every aircraft at every use. It has the potential to cause a problem, which it did in at least one known instance. The problem was identified and a fix is in progress.


So what is cynical about my statement?
A change to the grounding structure of the instrumentation panel by production, that seemingly has not gone through a review process. Is there a review process for small changes at Boeing would be the question.
A quality control that does seemingly do not check grounding. What does quality control do at Boeing, is it insufficient or are they overruled. If this would be the only case out of Boeing in regards to quality, that would be a different thing.

The failure is found when a 737MAX will not start, because the insufficient grounding keeps part of the instrumentation or control system from working.
That could have happened in the air. Failures that manifest themselves not all the time are about the worst.
I would hardly accept your limited area description, as when investigated, the fault seems to be widespread through the instrumentation panels.

In regards to complexity of engineering. Because things interact in complex ways, you exactly keep things you can control simple for example grounding.
You follow certain rules in regards to grounding. You define dedicated grounding paths. You make sure that all grounding points are blank metal. You connect grounding points by strips and wires and do not rely to much on structures.

And the main point, engineers do not assume that small changes are benign, they check.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 10:16 am

sxf24 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Are you suggesting this further exercise will find nothing to add to the fix?


No, I'm suggesting that if the exercise is looking for other things that need fixing, it should not mean holding up fixing the things we already know need fixing.


This has been the historic approach for OEMs and regulators: if you find a problem, you determine the root cause and correct. You don’t keep searching for unrelated problems is a good way to be forever paralyzed.


I assume they looking at the grounding practices for the 737 and check if the grounding is OK in the rest of the frame.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 12:58 pm

To explain my perhaps harsh views on Boeings grounding provisions on the 737 and perhaps with the thought that the design of the 737 is from 1967 or based on the design on the 707 from 1957. A lot of water has run down the rivers since than and a lot of changes in regards to electrics and electronics have happened since than.
Engineering lives not only by science, but from decades and centuries of experience.

A small story from my experience. 20 years ago we set up some high power electrical equipment using three electrical power cabinets spaced quite a way appart. The cabinets were grounded together connected through the galvanised steel ladders carrying the wires between the cabinets and other electrical equipment. The steel ladders were bolted together or when not directly bolted together connected by copper strips. My electrical engineer thought he had provided rather solid grounding.
The inspector came and ordered unbroken long copper strips between the grounding points of the cabinets and on to the outside ground.

My electrical engineer was mumbling to me about know it alls. So I said to him go lets check and measure before we put down the grounding stripes. And we measured some resistance and shooting high voltage spikes and measuring them, some distortion.
Putting down the stripes, both connected to the cabinets grounding points and to every single ladder, both the slight resistance and the distortion was gone.
My electrical engineer still works for me on the bigger projects, but he has changed his views on proper grounding a bit since than. Grounding stripes are used to connect grounding points, even if metallic structures connect those points. The number of connections in the grounding path can result in unexpected resistance, just one loose or otherwise bad connection for example.

I have the feeling that some practices, common in the fifties and sixties, are not applicable today, and that especially the need for proper grounding in electronics has evolved since electronics have evolved.

My connection to aviation, other than having been a pilot on small private planes, is through aircraft refueling equipment and equipment for fuel storage facilities, a small side business here in Iceland. Grounding all and everything to not have accidents through sparks from mostly static electricity is thought about daily.
I am a mechanical engineer by profession.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 2:45 pm

brindabella wrote:
We have been presented with stories that there was the overwhelming pressure right from the top of BCA to do everything as cheaply as possible and to have it finished yesterday - with MCAS the worst, but certainly not the only example coming to light.

I hope that I am not being too optimistic, but I see every reason to assess the current situation as one where safety is everything at BCA in 2021, rather than a "nice to have" which really had been sidelined - at least in the minds of the most senior staff.

All that pressure has gone - or should have.
Anyone still operating like that is actually letting their workmates and BCA down, as well as the travelling public and the airlines buying the planes.

And risks jail-time.

:tombstone:

Since you are going with exaggerations, I'll flip them around -- do you really think Boeing is now telling its engineers they no longer need to be concerned about budget or schedule? In essence this is what you are claiming above. Personally, I'm going to go forward knowing budget and schedule are always going to be significant factors in real world engineering.

IMO Boeing successfully managed to make a bunch of drunken texts about training standards become the focus of the MCAS investigation, rather than management pressuring engineers both inside Boeing and at FAA to meet budget and/or schedule demands. We clearly have never gotten to the bottom of the failures on the engineering side that led to MCAS in the first place. It looks like the "three second guy" will take his secrets with him to his grave. Our useless Congress could have gotten to the bottom of things, but instead we had made-for-TV moments with wailing victim's families and cynical questions from rich Senators about the CEO's pay package.

mjoelnir wrote:
So what is cynical about my statement?
A change to the grounding structure of the instrumentation panel by production, that seemingly has not gone through a review process . Is there a review process for small changes at Boeing would be the question.
A quality control that does seemingly do not check grounding. What does quality control do at Boeing, is it insufficient or are they overruled. If this would be the only case out of Boeing in regards to quality, that would be a different thing.

The failure is found when a 737MAX will not start, because the insufficient grounding keeps part of the instrumentation or control system from working.
That could have happened in the air. Failures that manifest themselves not all the time are about the worst.
I would hardly accept your limited area description, as when investigated, the fault seems to be widespread through the instrumentation panels.

In regards to complexity of engineering. Because things interact in complex ways, you exactly keep things you can control simple for example grounding.
You follow certain rules in regards to grounding. You define dedicated grounding paths. You make sure that all grounding points are blank metal. You connect grounding points by strips and wires and do not rely to much on structures.

And the main point, engineers do not assume that small changes are benign, they check.

A cynic would say the change has not gone through a review process, rather than the change was insufficiently reviewed. A cynic would say that quality control does not check grounding, rather than quality control did an insufficient check for grounding. That's what is cynical about your statements, you choose to create the impression that nothing was done rather than it was done inadequately.

As you say, engineering is complex, things interact in complex ways, little things like paint applied incorrectly can invalidate a lot of work. As you say, there could have been a way for this to cause issues in the air, so it's good that it's being addressed now while the planes are on the ground. It seems FAA is determined that Boeing learn a lesson on this one, good for them!

As someone with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, I can say we didn't spend much if any time on grounding. Just like physics undergrads assume no friction, EE undergrads largely assume zero ohms to ground, that's the difference between academia and industry.
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ATSS
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 5:54 pm

I spent several decades working for the FAA. In the days of tube equipment, grounding was no big deal. As equipment became more sophisticated grounding importance came to the forefront. We spent thousands of hours and millions of dollars up grading grounding.systems. The same thing applies to air frames both currently and historically. One thing for sure, a coated surface will not provide good grounding to any digital components in any environment.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 6:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
A cynic would say the change has not gone through a review process, rather than the change was insufficiently reviewed. A cynic would say that quality control does not check grounding, rather than quality control did an insufficient check for grounding. That's what is cynical about your statements, you choose to create the impression that nothing was done rather than it was done inadequately.

As you say, engineering is complex, things interact in complex ways, little things like paint applied incorrectly can invalidate a lot of work. As you say, there could have been a way for this to cause issues in the air, so it's good that it's being addressed now while the planes are on the ground. It seems FAA is determined that Boeing learn a lesson on this one, good for them!

As someone with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, I can say we didn't spend much if any time on grounding. Just like physics undergrads assume no friction, EE undergrads largely assume zero ohms to ground, that's the difference between academia and industry.


I have trouble to decide what is better, not having been reviewed, or having been reviewed and the problem not found. The same for quality control.
Is something done badly better than not done at all. The former gives you a false security of things been done.
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 6:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A cynic would say the change has not gone through a review process, rather than the change was insufficiently reviewed. A cynic would say that quality control does not check grounding, rather than quality control did an insufficient check for grounding. That's what is cynical about your statements, you choose to create the impression that nothing was done rather than it was done inadequately.

As you say, engineering is complex, things interact in complex ways, little things like paint applied incorrectly can invalidate a lot of work. As you say, there could have been a way for this to cause issues in the air, so it's good that it's being addressed now while the planes are on the ground. It seems FAA is determined that Boeing learn a lesson on this one, good for them!

As someone with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, I can say we didn't spend much if any time on grounding. Just like physics undergrads assume no friction, EE undergrads largely assume zero ohms to ground, that's the difference between academia and industry.


I have trouble to decide what is better, not having been reviewed, or having been reviewed and the problem not found. The same for quality control.
Is something done badly better than not done at all. The former gives you a false security of things been done.


What do you think quality control does?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Sun May 09, 2021 11:07 pm

sxf24 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A cynic would say the change has not gone through a review process, rather than the change was insufficiently reviewed. A cynic would say that quality control does not check grounding, rather than quality control did an insufficient check for grounding. That's what is cynical about your statements, you choose to create the impression that nothing was done rather than it was done inadequately.

As you say, engineering is complex, things interact in complex ways, little things like paint applied incorrectly can invalidate a lot of work. As you say, there could have been a way for this to cause issues in the air, so it's good that it's being addressed now while the planes are on the ground. It seems FAA is determined that Boeing learn a lesson on this one, good for them!

As someone with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, I can say we didn't spend much if any time on grounding. Just like physics undergrads assume no friction, EE undergrads largely assume zero ohms to ground, that's the difference between academia and industry.


I have trouble to decide what is better, not having been reviewed, or having been reviewed and the problem not found. The same for quality control.
Is something done badly better than not done at all. The former gives you a false security of things been done.


What do you think quality control does?


It should find faults and defects, making sure that frames with defects are not delivered. In the best case detecting faults as they occur, as early as possible in the production.
In regards to grounding, quality control should detect faulty grounding.

If we look at the 787 quality disaster and this 737 grounding problem, quality control at Boeing seems to be quite bad or not existing.

It follows the news a while ago, that Boeing was expecting to remove or cut down on quality control because of cost. Modern production methods would make quality control unnecessary. I think we see the results.
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 12:37 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I have trouble to decide what is better, not having been reviewed, or having been reviewed and the problem not found. The same for quality control.
Is something done badly better than not done at all. The former gives you a false security of things been done.


What do you think quality control does?


It should find faults and defects, making sure that frames with defects are not delivered. In the best case detecting faults as they occur, as early as possible in the production.
In regards to grounding, quality control should detect faulty grounding.

If we look at the 787 quality disaster and this 737 grounding problem, quality control at Boeing seems to be quite bad or not existing.

It follows the news a while ago, that Boeing was expecting to remove or cut down on quality control because of cost. Modern production methods would make quality control unnecessary. I think we see the results.


That’s a nice conceptual view of quality control that does not reflect a real world applicability.
 
avi8
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 12:40 pm

So no news on when the MAXs are gonna fly again? It seems like a really long grounding.
avi8
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 12:42 pm

avi8 wrote:
So no news on when the MAXs are gonna fly again? It seems like a really long grounding.

Over 100 MAXs are flying everyday
 
avi8
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 12:55 pm

Opus99 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
So no news on when the MAXs are gonna fly again? It seems like a really long grounding.

Over 100 MAXs are flying everyday

Tell that to Southwest who has half of their MAX fleet on the ground.
avi8
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 12:58 pm

avi8 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
So no news on when the MAXs are gonna fly again? It seems like a really long grounding.

Over 100 MAXs are flying everyday

Tell that to Southwest who has half of their MAX fleet on the ground.

Well, your blanket statement is still incorrect. If I tell that to southwest they’ll probably agree because it’s true also it has had minimal effect on their operations so. I mean hey. They had what 58 Maxes? Well I mean they have about 700 737s so I’m sure they’re so upset. Please, mix that with an economic downturn.

When the bulletin is out, you will know. If you haven’t seen anything yet then there’s no update.
 
avi8
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 1:02 pm

Opus99 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Over 100 MAXs are flying everyday

Tell that to Southwest who has half of their MAX fleet on the ground.

Well, your blanket statement is still incorrect. If I tell that to southwest they’ll probably agree because it’s true also it has had minimal effect on their operations so. I mean hey. They had what 58 Maxes? Well I mean they have about 700 737s so I’m sure they’re so upset. Please


Someone woke up grumpy. All I’m saying is this issue just keeps getting longer and longer, and I’m sure airlines would prefer to put a MAX on a route versus an NG because of the savings in fule. Every cent counts.
avi8
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 1:16 pm

avi8 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Tell that to Southwest who has half of their MAX fleet on the ground.

Well, your blanket statement is still incorrect. If I tell that to southwest they’ll probably agree because it’s true also it has had minimal effect on their operations so. I mean hey. They had what 58 Maxes? Well I mean they have about 700 737s so I’m sure they’re so upset. Please


Someone woke up grumpy. All I’m saying is this issue just keeps getting longer and longer, and I’m sure airlines would prefer to put a MAX on a route versus an NG because of the savings in fule. Every cent counts.

Feeling good so far, thanks. Well, The FAA came back to ask for documentation they could’ve asked for from the beginning so Boeing has to go back and do more analysis after already submitting a bulletin for approval which the FAA approved but FAA doesn’t want to seem like they don’t know what they’re doing
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 4:27 pm

Opus99 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Well, your blanket statement is still incorrect. If I tell that to southwest they’ll probably agree because it’s true also it has had minimal effect on their operations so. I mean hey. They had what 58 Maxes? Well I mean they have about 700 737s so I’m sure they’re so upset. Please


Someone woke up grumpy. All I’m saying is this issue just keeps getting longer and longer, and I’m sure airlines would prefer to put a MAX on a route versus an NG because of the savings in fule. Every cent counts.

Feeling good so far, thanks. Well, The FAA came back to ask for documentation they could’ve asked for from the beginning so Boeing has to go back and do more analysis after already submitting a bulletin for approval which the FAA approved but FAA doesn’t want to seem like they don’t know what they’re doing


Don’t forget the wasted week because someone at the FAA was on vacation.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 5:03 pm

sxf24 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

What do you think quality control does?


It should find faults and defects, making sure that frames with defects are not delivered. In the best case detecting faults as they occur, as early as possible in the production.
In regards to grounding, quality control should detect faulty grounding.

If we look at the 787 quality disaster and this 737 grounding problem, quality control at Boeing seems to be quite bad or not existing.

It follows the news a while ago, that Boeing was expecting to remove or cut down on quality control because of cost. Modern production methods would make quality control unnecessary. I think we see the results.


That’s a nice conceptual view of quality control that does not reflect a real world applicability.


It perhaps does not reflect Boeings world, but it does reflect the real world quite well. At least at companies who take the quality of their products seriously.
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 5:58 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

It should find faults and defects, making sure that frames with defects are not delivered. In the best case detecting faults as they occur, as early as possible in the production.
In regards to grounding, quality control should detect faulty grounding.

If we look at the 787 quality disaster and this 737 grounding problem, quality control at Boeing seems to be quite bad or not existing.

It follows the news a while ago, that Boeing was expecting to remove or cut down on quality control because of cost. Modern production methods would make quality control unnecessary. I think we see the results.


That’s a nice conceptual view of quality control that does not reflect a real world applicability.


It perhaps does not reflect Boeings world, but it does reflect the real world quite well. At least at companies who take the quality of their products seriously.


I don’t know what Boeing’s quality control processes are, but I can guarantee it’s not a set of workers watching everything a mechanic does. That’s not how quality assurance works in the real world.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 6:19 pm

sxf24 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

That’s a nice conceptual view of quality control that does not reflect a real world applicability.


It perhaps does not reflect Boeings world, but it does reflect the real world quite well. At least at companies who take the quality of their products seriously.


I don’t know what Boeing’s quality control processes are, but I can guarantee it’s not a set of workers watching everything a mechanic does. That’s not how quality assurance works in the real world.


Did I say that?
Let us take an example. You have a machine tool producing parts. For some application every machined part gets inspected numbered and certified. For other applications random parts are inspected. For something like grounding path you at least measure resistance after or during installation.
Do you really want to start a discussion what is done in the real world? Quality control is a set of workers, if a mechanic is needed a mechanic, if an engineer is needed an engineer, that checks the work that has been done. It can be every part, it can be random. It can be measurements, it can be stress tests, it can be röntgen for for example welds, there are many possibilities what a quality control can check upon. The aim is always to remove faults, as early in the production process as possible..
If nothing like the above is done, than there is no quality control existing. And yes I talk about the real world. During my years as an engineer, I also have worked in quality control, in a company that takes that seriously. If a part or assembly was found faulty, it was discarded or moved aside to be repaired if that was possible. At that factory nobody would dare to override quality control.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Mon May 10, 2021 7:36 pm

If some comments on this thread in respect to quality control and FAA professionalism reflect actual Boeing staff and management views on quality control and the role of the FAA, thank goodness the FAA is more proactive, is brave enough to take a second look, and isn't just rubber stamping Boeing's wish list.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Tue May 11, 2021 1:18 am

mjoelnir wrote:
And yes I talk about the real world. During my years as an engineer, I also have worked in quality control, in a company that takes that seriously. If a part or assembly was found faulty, it was discarded or moved aside to be repaired if that was possible. At that factory nobody would dare to override quality control.


So no issue was ever able to get past that system? That company should have stopped manufacturing whatever they manufactured and gone into the QA consulting business. They could have made a fortune. Just automobile manufacturers alone would pay a lot of money to know they would never have to deal with a recall again. Hospitals could eliminate medical errors completely. The possibilities are boundless.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Tue May 11, 2021 5:07 am

hivue wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
And yes I talk about the real world. During my years as an engineer, I also have worked in quality control, in a company that takes that seriously. If a part or assembly was found faulty, it was discarded or moved aside to be repaired if that was possible. At that factory nobody would dare to override quality control.


So no issue was ever able to get past that system? That company should have stopped manufacturing whatever they manufactured and gone into the QA consulting business. They could have made a fortune. Just automobile manufacturers alone would pay a lot of money to know they would never have to deal with a recall again. Hospitals could eliminate medical errors completely. The possibilities are boundless.


I think you would be astonished, how little goes past a good quality control. You would also be astonished how much at least some automobile producers spend on quality control. Toyota pulls out cars or components that do not pass inspection to the side and only fixed to specification they join the stream again.
Yes in some areas you are supposed to catch everything, with inspection certificates following each and every part, starting of with analyzing the material before you work it. In other areas you are satisfied to catche most of the faults.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 pm

Back in the dark ages, say 1940s to 1970s car were typically considered old and unfixable (except by backyard mechanics - and that can be a fun topic) when they got to 75K miles, maybe a good chunk earlier. Now it is expected that any car/small truck should go at least 150K, and for really good ones upward to 300K. And all of that without any major rebuilds. Automotive learned quality control.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 5:15 am

FAA has cleared Boeing’s fox for this issue. Hopefully this is the last of the problems on the MAX. https://t.co/Q7REe2mZBc
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am

Good news. Let's go and bring deliveries up and running again.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 7:29 am

Nice to finally put that to bed. Hopefully we can close this MAX safety chapter once and for all. Vamos Boeing!
 
Alfons
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Boeing's 737 Max has new problem that will require electrical inspection

Thu May 13, 2021 11:10 am

ikolkyo wrote:
FAA has cleared Boeing’s fox for this issue. Hopefully this is the last of the problems on the MAX. https://t.co/Q7REe2mZBc


Interesting part from above article:

In February, the FAA said it was tracking all Boeing 737 MAX airplanes using satellite data under an agreement with air traffic surveillance firm Aireon LLC.


Does anyone know what this means technically? Realtime inflight tracking (I thought that's not possible over large water areas)? And if yes, for what purpose?

Thanks.
Alfons

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