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airbazar
Posts: 10317
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:44 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Anyway, anybody being able to get one of the covid vaccines and declines it, has to get his/her head examined. I live in the country with the lowest death rate in regards to infections and here still 0.46 % have died.
In the USA, if we look at the death toll from covid, 170 have died out of every 100.000, or 0.17 % of the whole population.
In regards to know infections, including people without symptoms, 1.8 % have died. That is still 18 times the death rate of influenza.
Counting the dead does not count the people having debilitating symptoms even after a mild bout of covid and we do not know the long term effects.


By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Anyway, anybody being able to get one of the covid vaccines and declines it, has to get his/her head examined. I live in the country with the lowest death rate in regards to infections and here still 0.46 % have died.
In the USA, if we look at the death toll from covid, 170 have died out of every 100.000, or 0.17 % of the whole population.
In regards to know infections, including people without symptoms, 1.8 % have died. That is still 18 times the death rate of influenza.
Counting the dead does not count the people having debilitating symptoms even after a mild bout of covid and we do not know the long term effects.


By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.

The vaccine is just exercise for your immune system
 
sanssouci
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:24 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:01 pm

Federal law prohibits employers - including hospitals - from requiring employee vaccinations with vaccines that are not fully licensed. None of the available Covid-19 vaccines are currently fully licensed, therefore any corporate policy or a requirement for employees to get vaccinated will not stand in court.

With respect to international travel, in most cases there will be more than enough vaccinated employees to crew flights to vaccine-requiring countries (if and when such requirement becomes applicable to crews). In any event, before airlines worry about complying with entry requirements of other countries, they must first comply with the laws of their home jurisdiction. As it stands right now it is illegal in the US to require a Covid-19 vaccine (or any EUA vaccine) as a condition of employment.

This article was written by Aaron Siri of Siri LLP (https://www.sirillp.com). It summarizes the current state of law quite well.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/fed ... er-an-eua/

Stay safe and please be kind to each other.
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:24 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:21 pm

airbazar wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Anyway, anybody being able to get one of the covid vaccines and declines it, has to get his/her head examined. I live in the country with the lowest death rate in regards to infections and here still 0.46 % have died.
In the USA, if we look at the death toll from covid, 170 have died out of every 100.000, or 0.17 % of the whole population.
In regards to know infections, including people without symptoms, 1.8 % have died. That is still 18 times the death rate of influenza.
Counting the dead does not count the people having debilitating symptoms even after a mild bout of covid and we do not know the long term effects.


By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.


And when you spread it to someone who doesn't run half marathons and they have serious repercussions from it how would you feel? Infectious diseases are not an every man for himself problem. Everyone needs to take steps like masks, social distancing, quarantines, vaccines ect to slow the spread overall helping those who are vulnerable. Not doing so is incredibly selfish and pretty dickish, IMO.
 
travaz
Posts: 998
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:52 pm

I worked in an office that in my opinion was fairly safe due to low number of people in the office and already having "social distance" by design. However our 750 drivers were in contact with the public. Many drivers got sick but fortunately we only had one death. Public transportation is our business. I retired last Oct and RAN out to get a vaccine when it became available to me. I have my own opinions on vaccines and personal rights but I believe it is our civic duty to help protect our fellow humans. Just go out and get the damn vaccine and let us all return to a normal life.
 
Tyroneguy
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:04 pm

Capricorn wrote:
What if the Air Crew becomes unable to fulfill its job because of vaccine hesitation? I am sure some countries like Australia, Israel or Hong Kong will require Vaccine upon entry. I fully support my body my choice, but I can see that it will create big troubles for airlines to potentially staff certain flights. That potentially gives ground to dismiss employees as they become unable to perform their job. Maybe that is not a big problem in the US, where there is a huge domestic market, but for airlines primarily flying internationally non-vaccinated employees will become a big problem.



At my US airline, before you accept a transfer to a base that serves a country like China, you have to acknowledge that you have all visas necessary to support that flying. AND, if you're caught without the visas, you skip level one discipline and go straight to level two. I can see something similar happening with vaccines. Simply put, if you don't have the vaccine required by foreign governments, you don't work those flights. That'll be fun to watch play out in hubs like Atlanta, Houston and Dallas.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3399
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:06 pm

airbazar wrote:
By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.


TB cases in the US are less than 10,000 per year. This comparison has no value. It is the same number of COVID cases that surface in the US in 3 hours.

Here is healthy: My kids' soccer coach, early 40s in top health ended up at the ICU with COVID.

In Brazil the elderly have vanished from ICUs. They are vaccinated. Most people in ICUs are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It is the Brazilian virus variant. Do you think it has not spread to other countries?
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:14 pm

incitatus wrote:
airbazar wrote:
By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.


TB cases in the US are less than 10,000 per year. This comparison has no value. It is the same number of COVID cases that surface in the US in 3 hours.

Here is healthy: My kids' soccer coach, early 40s in top health ended up at the ICU with COVID.

In Brazil the elderly have vanished from ICUs. They are vaccinated. Most people in ICUs are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It is the Brazilian virus variant. Do you think it has not spread to other countries?

The guys being willfully ignorant cannot be helped. They will find out the hard way. Like Sarah palin and Donald Trump did.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9489
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:16 pm

lightsaber wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I read a nice comparison that people here should understand. The added risk to you getting a blood clot after an AstraZeneca inoculation, is comparable to sitting through one long distance flight.

If you find the link, please share.

I am of the opinion AZ's clot risks can be mititgated (aspirin and light excercise).

Lightsaber


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coro ... 28418.html
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1866
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:19 pm

incitatus wrote:
In Brazil the elderly have vanished from ICUs. They are vaccinated. Most people in ICUs are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It is the Brazilian virus variant. Do you think it has not spread to other countries?

Same thing is happening here. This is just the State of Ohio, but I imagine the whole country is similar.
https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2 ... roups.html
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9489
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:29 pm

airbazar wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Anyway, anybody being able to get one of the covid vaccines and declines it, has to get his/her head examined. I live in the country with the lowest death rate in regards to infections and here still 0.46 % have died.
In the USA, if we look at the death toll from covid, 170 have died out of every 100.000, or 0.17 % of the whole population.
In regards to know infections, including people without symptoms, 1.8 % have died. That is still 18 times the death rate of influenza.
Counting the dead does not count the people having debilitating symptoms even after a mild bout of covid and we do not know the long term effects.


By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.


If you can point out to me how 33.000.000 got infected and 500.000 USA citizen died of tuberculosis in a year, than I can understand your rationale perhaps?

You should perhaps do some reading. https://www.cdc.gov/tb/statistics/default.htm

If you have to ask how many former healthy people that have been active in sports have died from covid, I can only answer plenty and with the new mutations in bigger numbers. But that is beside the point. Getting infected you can infect others. Protection from covid will work through herd immunity.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4488
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:35 pm

A guy I work with, I would describe him as a beast. Fit, early 30’s - strong as an Ox. Can climb 14,000 ft Mountains without breaking a sweat - he got COVID over the summer and thought he was about to die. Couldn’t get out of his chair and walk more than a few feet without running out of breath. He had to have someone place chairs in his hallway so he could make rest stops on the way to and from the kitchen and bathroom. That is scary. It is complete and utter nonsense that young, healthy people cannot be affected by this.

Everyone should take this seriously.
 
planecane
Posts: 1653
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:41 pm

I'd suggest a way to encourage vaccination but not require them. Put a policy in place that if you decline to be vaccinated and have to miss work due to contracting SARS-CoV-2/COVID, you have to take unpaid leave or use your sick/personal time. If you get vaccinated and end up contracting the virus (some small percentage still will) and have to miss work you get paid leave.

Nobody is forced to do anything but they are incentivized to get vaccinated.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:44 pm

planecane wrote:
I'd suggest a way to encourage vaccination but not require them. Put a policy in place that if you decline to be vaccinated and have to miss work due to contracting SARS-CoV-2/COVID, you have to take unpaid leave or use your sick/personal time. If you get vaccinated and end up contracting the virus (some small percentage still will) and have to miss work you get paid leave.

Nobody is forced to do anything but they are incentivized to get vaccinated.

Just pay people. I bet a ton of employees would do it for a Hundo. Or a confirmed round trip non rev ticket.
 
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mercure1
Posts: 5135
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:45 pm

At least in France, employers generally cannot mandate immunization.

Mandatory immunization requirements only apply to a very small number of citizens such as those that work in healthcare, and then for basic items like tetanus and hepatitis B.

Even French healthcare workers are very vaccine hesitant, with barely 1/3 COVID vaccinated compared to 95% in the UK.
mercure f-wtcc
 
planecane
Posts: 1653
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:45 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
A guy I work with, I would describe him as a beast. Fit, early 30’s - strong as an Ox. Can climb 14,000 ft Mountains without breaking a sweat - he got COVID over the summer and thought he was about to die. Couldn’t get out of his chair and walk more than a few feet without running out of breath. He had to have someone place chairs in his hallway so he could make rest stops on the way to and from the kitchen and bathroom. That is scary. It is complete and utter nonsense that young, healthy people cannot be affected by this.

Everyone should take this seriously.


It's not that young, healthy people "cannot" be seriously effected by COVID, it's that they are far less likely to be than older or unhealthy people by an order of magnitude or two. Everybody I know or know of who has had it was a mild case with the worst symptoms being a bad headache and loss of taste and smell. That doesn't mean that none of the people in my circle could have gotten a serious case. They absolutely could have.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:52 pm

planecane wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
A guy I work with, I would describe him as a beast. Fit, early 30’s - strong as an Ox. Can climb 14,000 ft Mountains without breaking a sweat - he got COVID over the summer and thought he was about to die. Couldn’t get out of his chair and walk more than a few feet without running out of breath. He had to have someone place chairs in his hallway so he could make rest stops on the way to and from the kitchen and bathroom. That is scary. It is complete and utter nonsense that young, healthy people cannot be affected by this.

Everyone should take this seriously.


It's not that young, healthy people "cannot" be seriously effected by COVID, it's that they are far less likely to be than older or unhealthy people by an order of magnitude or two. Everybody I know or know of who has had it was a mild case with the worst symptoms being a bad headache and loss of taste and smell. That doesn't mean that none of the people in my circle could have gotten a serious case. They absolutely could have.

And those symptoms are way worse than the vaccine losing one of your senses is pretty serious. It’s a sign of nerve damage. My buddy still can’t smell 6 months later.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1420
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:53 pm

KFTG wrote:
DalDC9Bos wrote:
I see the fed govt in the US and similar countries stepping in soon and mandating vaccination for pilots and cabin crew. The feds would be protected by sovereign immunity from lawsuits and reiterate that aviation is a vital industry to interstate commerce and national interests.

No other justification or explanation would be needed at that point. Refuse a federal background check and you lose the job offer. Refuse a vaccine against a deadly pandemic and you lose your job. Choice is allowed, but results in termination. Thousands of unemployed who have been vaccinated would gladly take those positions.

1. Fully vaccinated here, 2 doses.
2. This is not the hill you want to die on; a gov't forcing its citizens (they work for us) to get a vaccine that is not fully-approved is a pandora's box you do not want to open.


Thank you for taking the jab! I’m assuming you are of the mindset that vaccination is a personal risk/benefit choice. I think that folks shouldn’t resort to fear mongering either for or against the COVID-19 vaccines and simply provide people with sensible info to make their choices because in the US (1) the rationale for COVID-19 vaccination AND the keeping of mask mandates and social distancing restrictions is to mitigate the creation and spread of increasingly lethal mutations (i.e variants), (2) there are known long-hauler issues for the many that do survive COVID-19 infections and (3) all of the COVID-19 vaccinations available in the US are approved for emergency use and that does not mean that they have been fully approved by the FDA in the same way other medications have been approved (i.e. completed phase 4 trials). That nuance is in the consent forms individuals must initial and sign prior to being vaccinated.

My fear is long hauler symptoms and potential lung damage from COVID-19. I also understand vaccination hesitancy because we don’t know much about how the very promising, but novel, mRNA technology will interact with the human body over the long term.

Vaccination should be a conflicted choice of risk and benefits, but ultimately a person must be prepared to live with the consequences of their decisions. Companies and governments forcibly making decisions for their employees or citizens respectively, will ultimately be counterproductive.
 
Lootess
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:05 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Companies don't have much to stand on currently to make it mandatory to have a vaccine. All of the vaccines are currently only approved for emergency use. They are considered experimental. Even the US military can not mandate that emergency use vaccines are required.

I highly doubt that even when they are completely approved few companies will make them mandatory. The legal fight just isn't worth it. Most will highly encourage the vaccines and possibly reward the employees that do get it.


Incorrect. Most notable universities already require MMR immunity to enroll, and now with Notre Dame, Rutgers, Duke, and others making COVID vaccines required it’s just a matter of time.

Also Pfizer has enough data for formal FDA approval application, based on their last peer reviewed study last week.
 
elbandgeek
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:26 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:29 pm

Make them mandatory and if someone doesn't want to then they can deal with being fired and excluded from the rest of society. I don't care if it's only "emergency" approved, we know they work and the rest of the approvals are formalities at this point.

Antivaxxers have 0 right to ruin things for the rest of us.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4739
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:17 pm

32andBelow wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The vaccine is free. The long term effects are well documented. You are simply choosing to be uneducated. I wouldn’t considered more dead Americans than ww2 a non event.

Should I have phrased the deaths in units of 9/11s? Would that have been easier to understand? People die. in 2019 951 9/11s of people died in total. Kind of hard to document long term effects on a vaccine that has been barely available to the public.

It’s 500,000 excess deaths. All your flus and whatever else is already accounted for. And what long term effects do you think there are going to be from the tiny amount of injected material? You act like the inventors don’t know what the ingredients are.


People act as if a group of random strangers got together and threw a bunch of random ingredients together as a wild guess. We have the world’s leading experts with decades of experience, practically unlimited funding and no shortage of trial participants, who can confidently make safe vaccines. The big question was are they effective.

NWAESC wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
And on the other hand I do not know anyone with any sort of long term effects, or anyone who has died. Anecdotes are terrible evidence


Lucky you. I sincerely hope it stays that way. You're an exception and not the rule.


I personally knew one person who died of COVID and I’m two degrees separated by at least a dozen more. I can’t say the same for any past flu seasons.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DoctorVenkman
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Anyway, anybody being able to get one of the covid vaccines and declines it, has to get his/her head examined. I live in the country with the lowest death rate in regards to infections and here still 0.46 % have died.
In the USA, if we look at the death toll from covid, 170 have died out of every 100.000, or 0.17 % of the whole population.
In regards to know infections, including people without symptoms, 1.8 % have died. That is still 18 times the death rate of influenza.
Counting the dead does not count the people having debilitating symptoms even after a mild bout of covid and we do not know the long term effects.


By your rational, anyone who does not have the TB vaccine should have their head examined too because TB kills far more people every year than Covid.
Let me ask you something: How many healthy 50 year olds that can run a half marathon in 1:30, have died of Covid? I have no problem with people who feel that they need the vaccine and won't stoop to insulting them only because they have a different opinion. I even encouraged my parents to get it. Some people really need it. But for me personally I trust the best disease fighting machine that exists: my immune system.


Thousands of healthy young people have died from COVID in the US. Zero have died from the vaccine. Hundreds of thousands of survivors have long-term symptoms. Zero people have long term symptoms from the vaccine. The numbers are very clear: the vaccine reduces your risk from COVID regardless of your age or health.

I am in my 30's and very healthy and happily got the vaccine, even though my personal risk is very low. I'm still better off with the vaccine. There is no rationality in your decision to "trust your immune system" over taking the vaccine (btw, if you weren't aware, vaccines train your immune system... they don't replace it). It's your personal decision to make, but please don't pretend like it's any sort of rational decision based on science.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21708
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Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:55 pm

Please post a link with factual information or state it is your opinion.
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
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Lighthouse
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:38 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:17 pm

It should be down to the individual airline to decide their terms and conditions, both for their staff and customers. If I was running an airline it would be mandatory for staff and either a vaccine or proof of exemption AND a recent negative test.
 
Kraken27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:14 pm

Tyroneguy wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
What if the Air Crew becomes unable to fulfill its job because of vaccine hesitation? I am sure some countries like Australia, Israel or Hong Kong will require Vaccine upon entry. I fully support my body my choice, but I can see that it will create big troubles for airlines to potentially staff certain flights. That potentially gives ground to dismiss employees as they become unable to perform their job. Maybe that is not a big problem in the US, where there is a huge domestic market, but for airlines primarily flying internationally non-vaccinated employees will become a big problem.



At my US airline, before you accept a transfer to a base that serves a country like China, you have to acknowledge that you have all visas necessary to support that flying. AND, if you're caught without the visas, you skip level one discipline and go straight to level two. I can see something similar happening with vaccines. Simply put, if you don't have the vaccine required by foreign governments, you don't work those flights. That'll be fun to watch play out in hubs like Atlanta, Houston and Dallas.


My girlfriend is a flight attendant [cabin crew as we call it in the UK] for an international carrier. It's in her contract that she has to keep her paperwork in order for all destinations the airline serves. So this includes Visas - i.e. a B2 one for the USA & vaccinations - the airline does cover costs of vaccination & Visa appointments. When visiting any foreign country on travel, be it for business or tourism, you have to comply with the local laws and regulations irrespective of what you think of them. Turn up unvaccinated in a country that requires one & the airline would take a very dim view, as you'd be refused entry & be on the return flight home. This would impact your colleagues on their return flight a day or two later as they would be a crew member down.

It's only the same as trying to turn up in, say, the UAE who have a zero alcohol limit for driving a car and trying to drive when complying to your home countries alcohol limit for driving. Different countries, different laws.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7395
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:39 pm

Do airline crews have to get their own visas? Really? I flew corporate and we had two passports and a vendor (3G, I think in Houston) that did all the visa legwork. Send them a passport, they FedEx’d it back with the required visas.
 
Kraken27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do airline crews have to get their own visas? Really? I flew corporate and we had two passports and a vendor (3G, I think in Houston) that did all the visa legwork. Send them a passport, they FedEx’d it back with the required visas.


At the airline my girlfriend works for yes, they have to get their own Visas - especially for the USA, they require an in-person interview at the Embassy in London. They get a paid day off to attend the appointment & all travel & application fees refunded by the airline, who also provide a Sponsor letter.

It was quite different some years ago when my father was working - his employer used a Visa agent company & the passport would just be returned via courier with the visa in it. He did have a second passport, but only for Visas that may be "troublesome" to countries like the USA - at the time typically certain Middle-Eastern countries.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 645
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:28 am

Honestly I'm shocked at just how many anti-vaxxers are on this site, I would have thought that getting vaccinated against a potentially deadly disease should be a no-brainer much like vaccination against smallpox in the past or polio and measles now.
RIP 9V-SKA
2007 - 2019
 
2175301
Posts: 2052
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:56 am

sanssouci wrote:
Federal law prohibits employers - including hospitals - from requiring employee vaccinations with vaccines that are not fully licensed. None of the available Covid-19 vaccines are currently fully licensed, therefore any corporate policy or a requirement for employees to get vaccinated will not stand in court.

With respect to international travel, in most cases there will be more than enough vaccinated employees to crew flights to vaccine-requiring countries (if and when such requirement becomes applicable to crews). In any event, before airlines worry about complying with entry requirements of other countries, they must first comply with the laws of their home jurisdiction. As it stands right now it is illegal in the US to require a Covid-19 vaccine (or any EUA vaccine) as a condition of employment.

This article was written by Aaron Siri of Siri LLP (https://www.sirillp.com). It summarizes the current state of law quite well.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/fed ... er-an-eua/

Stay safe and please be kind to each other.


I'm not sure you are quoting the right - or all the applicable statutes. I live in the USA and my wife works part time in a hospital.

She tells me that the hospital she works at limits health care workers in certain areas to only fully vaccinated people (Covid-19 Ward, Emergency Room, currently expanding to Surgery, and soon to expand to other areas). They have told the staff that they will work to find you a position in another area of the hospital if you are not vaccinated, if they can; but, will not guarantee you employment if they cannot find work suitable to your skills and pay rate.

There are very few medical staff who have declined vaccination since the medical staff (including my wife) has seen some of the worst results of Covid-19.

So, I take it from a very large medical company in the USA that they do think that they can dictate which staff positions require vaccination, and can end your employment if they cannot provide you with employment based on your previous position and qualifications.

I see no reason why Airlines could not do the same with the positions that have close interaction with a lot of passengers or other people.

As far as Covid-19 effects. I'm one of the "long haulers" with degraded mental ("brain fog") and other physical capabilities from developing Covid-19 early March 2020. It is clearly limiting my ability to earn $.

I've already gotten the 1st vaccine shot. 2nd one is scheduled. In 30-40% of cases the vaccine greatly reduces of eliminates the "long hauler" symptoms. I'm hoping that I'm one of those.

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2749
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:08 am

Lootess wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Companies don't have much to stand on currently to make it mandatory to have a vaccine. All of the vaccines are currently only approved for emergency use. They are considered experimental. Even the US military can not mandate that emergency use vaccines are required.

I highly doubt that even when they are completely approved few companies will make them mandatory. The legal fight just isn't worth it. Most will highly encourage the vaccines and possibly reward the employees that do get it.


Incorrect. Most notable universities already require MMR immunity to enroll, and now with Notre Dame, Rutgers, Duke, and others making COVID vaccines required it’s just a matter of time.

Also Pfizer has enough data for formal FDA approval application, based on their last peer reviewed study last week.


Moderna too should be close to applying for full FDA approval. I'm in the Moderna phase 3 trial and was called at the end of December about unblinding the study. I planned on unblinding at the time of the appointment scheduled for 6 months after my second injection. Towards the end of February, I was called about unblinding at the 6 month mark and was told they had to be separate appointments. Considering they draw 8 vials of blood each time I come in for a checkup, I didn't want them on back to back days, so I scheduled the 6 month appointment for the first week of March and the unblinding for the middle of March.

The next day I got a call from the trial center and was told that Moderna wanted everyone unblinded by the end of the next week which was the the first week of March. I just switched he two appointments. Anyway I got unblinded and I was right about guessing that I had gotten the vaccine and not the placebo. They gave me the card that documented my vaccinations. I would expect Moderna will have their application in soon for full FDA certification.
 
Lootess
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:12 am

Some people are just going to run out of options to defend, saying silly things like 'well it's not FDA approved'.

It's going to be approved, because once the pandemic is no longer considered an emergency, only fully approved products can remain on the market. As I said before Pfizer has enough data to submit a formal FDA approval. The others is just a matter of time, come this time by 2022 there will likely be at-least one approved in the market, and then the dominoes will fall. Soft mandates have started, and universities have already started to mandate for the Fall semester.

The new efficacy data, plus a safety analysis comprising data from more than 12,000 people who were fully immunized for at least six months, allow the companies to file a drug application with the FDA to turn the shot’s emergency use authorization into a full approval, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla, Ph.D., said in a statement.


https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/pfizer-biontech-eye-official-covid-19-vaccine-nod-as-efficacy-stands-strong-including
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8684
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:41 am

Wife and I got Round 1 last week.....ready to move on and get this damn thing over with.
I'm over the media, the non-sense, the anti-vaxers, the people battling everything. I try to tune it all out but man there are a lot of rabble rouses.

Employers aren't going to mandate it now. All bets are off by next year.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:44 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Wife and I got Round 1 last week.....ready to move on and get this damn thing over with.
I'm over the media, the non-sense, the anti-vaxers, the people battling everything. I try to tune it all out but man there are a lot of rabble rouses.

Employers aren't going to mandate it now. All bets are off by next year.

Employees are already starting to mandate it. Everyone saying that can’t mandate it is just stating an opinion.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:44 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Wife and I got Round 1 last week.....ready to move on and get this damn thing over with.
I'm over the media, the non-sense, the anti-vaxers, the people battling everything. I try to tune it all out but man there are a lot of rabble rouses.

Employers aren't going to mandate it now. All bets are off by next year.

Employers are already starting to mandate it. Everyone saying that can’t mandate it is just stating an opinion.

Uncruise in Washington is mandating it for crews.
 
2175301
Posts: 2052
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:06 am

People are correct that they have the freedom to chose to get the vaccine or not.

They also have the freedom to leave their current employment and find another if their current employer mandates the vaccine and they don't have a provable legitimate medical reason why not. You cannot say that someone took away your freedom to chose. You will always be free to chose... which has always limited peoples employment options who made certain choices.

Religious reasons have already been rejected by the courts for other vaccines. Your religious freedoms do not give you the right to potentially infect someone else with a serious disease.

Have a great day,
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4488
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:20 am

2175301 wrote:
People are correct that they have the freedom to chose to get the vaccine or not.

They also have the freedom to leave their current employment and find another if their current employer mandates the vaccine and they don't have a provable legitimate medical reason why not. You cannot say that someone took away your freedom to chose. You will always be free to chose... which has always limited peoples employment options who made certain choices.

Religious reasons have already been rejected by the courts for other vaccines. Your religious freedoms do not give you the right to potentially infect someone else with a serious disease.

Have a great day,


Agree. And at what point do religious reasons lose their ability to defy policy and require accommodation?

According to my religion I should make the same as a boss, and have every day off paid that ends in Y. So, expect a call from my lawyer.

At some point the burden can no longer be put on the employer and some responsibility should be borne by the person who requires accommodation. I am not smart enough to know where to draw the line, but a vaccine that ensures the safety of customers and employees doesn’t seem unreasonable. Should hand washing after wiping your butt also be excluded for religious practices?
 
N757ST
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:20 am

I’m airline crew... and I’m fully vaccinated with the Pfizer vaccine. Have been since early February. There is a small but very vocal anti vax community among crew, forcing them to get the vaccine would just reinforce their numerous fears and conspiracy theories. There are better ways to handle it, let them do their own thing and if a destination requires the shot let them feel it in their wallet when they are removed without pay. Eventually they will come around or they won’t, and honestly that’s fine especially with the level of efficacy especially surrounding the MNRA shots. I’m all for encouragement by airlines financially or otherwise like time off granted to get the shot, but a mandate will be counter productive and it’s just wrong. I personally think it’s stupid not to get it, but my thoughts are mine alone, people should always be give a choice.
 
Kraken27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:06 am

In the UK employers can mandate certain requirements for staff, as long as it does not discriminate on sex, race, religion, sexual orientation etc. Just look at a job listing anywhere and it will doubtless indicate a minimum level of qualifications / experience to be considered for the job. No-one moans about an employer asking for this.

Again, un the UK an employer can terminate you if the requirements for your job change & they cannot find you suitable alternative employment (or you decline to take the alternative position they offer). As an example, at a previous employer [UK company] we were out-sourced to a new employer who did government IT work. This required us to get quite a high level of UK government security clearance. Some of my colleagues could not get this due to previous minor criminal offences / their financial records. The employer sought to find them alternative work that did not need security clearance - in some cases they could, but some were terminated.

Back to airlines - all UK flight deck crew have to pass an annual medical (up to age 60, then every 6months until you reach 65 when your medical is revoked). For Cabin Crew it's a medical at least every 5 years (most airlines reduce this timeframe). If either crew fail a medical they're obviously grounded & the airline then has to look to offer them an alternative role as above, which may not always be possible.
 
gcb5196
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:45 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:24 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Honestly I'm shocked at just how many anti-vaxxers are on this site, I would have thought that getting vaccinated against a potentially deadly disease should be a no-brainer much like vaccination against smallpox in the past or polio and measles now.


Just because someone doesn't want to be coerced into getting the vaccine doesn't make them an anti-vaxxer though I do know they do exist. I have had other vaccinations, so I am clearly not an anti-vaxxer. What I won't be though is forced into something, or manipulated into something. Being cautious doesn't make someone selfish, it makes them human. My wife wanted to get stabbed the second the vaccine was available, that was her choice and with a little teasing I supported her decision. Even when she had the chance she waited until she was ready. Does that make her selfish for not getting the vaccine at the first opportunity? I like many others are being very cautious and when I feel like it is right for me I will get it. I was taught when I was young that force always meets with resistance, for all of you that are passionate about seeing to it that every single living creature on the planet get the vaccine may I suggest a little compassion and a little patience. We see person turning on person because someone isn't following "their rules", people screeching on both sides about masks and rights and social distancing and shut downs and your going to kill someone if you don't do exactly as I say. No wonder people are tired of all this. I said from the very beginning, and this is for me and my situation in my small part of the world, if they from the very beginning had said look we don't know what this is or how it will affect people but this is what we think will work the best for now. And then said we recommend XY and Z. I would have been all for it and I'm sure many others would have been too. There will always be those who just don't care, but let's have a little more faith in people that they are smart enough to make decisions for themselves, that they really do want to do what's best for their neighbor. The one's that won't anyway surely aren't going to change their mind by force, coercion and manipulation. I know for sure that as soon as restrictions were a you must and masks were a you will there were plenty of people that went nope. And the forcing of the vaccine will meet with the same resistance. If you truly want as many people to get vaccinated as possible educate, share your opinion, disagree but respect their choice and opinion and realize even after all you can do there will still be people that disagree with you and you are going to have to get over that.
Off my soap box now. Please stay safe out there everyone. Be a little kinder and be a little more patient. For the record I lost a close family member to covid in January, he had just retired. A close friend of my daughter lost her father he was in his 50's. And I know of several other acquaintances who lost their lives to covid. On the other hand a very good friend of mine quickly passed from cancer too far spread when detected in February. I didn't even know he was sick. And because of life I hadn't visited him for a few years which I deeply regret now. My sister's husband passed away earlier last year from cancer leaving her with 2 young girls to now raise during these uncertain and already stressful times for her. My wife's grandmother, who she was very close to, passed away from a heart condition last April. Due to the shutdown and border restrictions she couldn't see her, hold her hand and say good bye. I know I am not the only one affected by this, I know there are many others far worse off than I am from this. Life is too short for any of this crap.
Safe journeys.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:00 am

If you are unable to travel to the destinations to do your job, then the airlines have the right to fire you I believe.

There are still many countries that require proof of vaccines or 14 days isolation. Which mean that the crew who refused to get vaccines wouldn't be able to perform their job.
 
planecane
Posts: 1653
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:46 am

I am by no means anti-vax or anti-COVID vax. I have had both shots of Moderna as of last week. However, the recent news of the US pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine due to a rare blood clotting disorder in six women who took it (one died and one in critical condition) and the issues in Europe with the AstraZeneca vaccine do illustrate that the concern some people have taking vaccines that are not fully approved aren't completely unfounded.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:43 pm

I work in healthcare - not frontline but my job role does take me into clinical areas, Had both shots of Pfiizer via work with no side effects.

Working in healthcare you really see (when in clinical areas) the effect that COVID has had.

For those that argue that vaccines are not effective in reducing transmission - our area in the UK had a rate of nearly 800 / 100,000 in January this year - it is now down to 19 / 100,000 - some of this is undoubtedly due to the lock down but the figure we now have is lower than in either of the previous lockdowns we have been under even with more movement and schools back etc. so the vaccine must have had some effect on reducing our rate.

With regards to airlines I think that in the end it will come down to the entry requirements of the countries that crews are flying to as well as a business decision - given the choice between an airline that has staff and passengers fully vaccinated and one that does not I know which I would choose.
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
User avatar
Chasensfo
Posts: 299
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:10 pm

At least in the US, if your airline flies international routes, you need a passport, if you can no longer hold a passport or you commit a crime that bars you from entering a place like Canada, well, you're fired. If you now require a vaccine for your airline to sensibly operate a route in your aircraft type, you'll probably need a vaccine. The airline isn't going to deal with your quarantine when flights restart normally and countries require the crews be vaccinated. Don't see a way around it, other than taking unpaid leave. If they let you.
 
raylee67
Posts: 980
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:48 pm

Airlines, especially those from the western world, probably will leave it to the employees to decide. But many airlines in more "restrictive" places may start requiring employees (or even passengers) to get vaccinated. We know EK and SQ are already doing that with staff. QR will probably do the same. And airlines like TK and EY may follow once vaccines are widely available.

For western airlines, there may be some difficulties with international routes too. Many countries may eventually require that only vaccinated people can enter the country. This would pose a problem for airlines operating long range flights. They can only schedule crews who are vaccinated onto those flights. Australia already said they will only allow vaccinated people in once they open border, so I suppose UA, AA and DL can only schedule vaccinated crews on flights to Australia. This would reduce opportunities for crews who don't get vaccinated, regardless of their rank. They cannot fly routes which they will be denied entry into the destination countries. I would expect similar entry restriction eventually happening to many East Asian countries.
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AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:27 pm

planecane wrote:
I am by no means anti-vax or anti-COVID vax. I have had both shots of Moderna as of last week. However, the recent news of the US pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine due to a rare blood clotting disorder in six women who took it (one died and one in critical condition) and the issues in Europe with the AstraZeneca vaccine do illustrate that the concern some people have taking vaccines that are not fully approved aren't completely unfounded.


and I think that's what some people have some hesitancy. Its more of I just want to see a little bit more come out before I take mine. Also, there's going to be plenty that do not want to take it if they still have to live under restrictive shutdowns or unable to return to normalcy.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5273
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:47 pm

CALMSP wrote:
planecane wrote:
I am by no means anti-vax or anti-COVID vax. I have had both shots of Moderna as of last week. However, the recent news of the US pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine due to a rare blood clotting disorder in six women who took it (one died and one in critical condition) and the issues in Europe with the AstraZeneca vaccine do illustrate that the concern some people have taking vaccines that are not fully approved aren't completely unfounded.


and I think that's what some people have some hesitancy. Its more of I just want to see a little bit more come out before I take mine. Also, there's going to be plenty that do not want to take it if they still have to live under restrictive shutdowns or unable to return to normalcy.

Nah at this point those people are just moving the goal posts again and again. 200,000,000 shots have been given in the USA. what do they need 400,000,000?
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:52 pm

32andBelow wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
planecane wrote:
I am by no means anti-vax or anti-COVID vax. I have had both shots of Moderna as of last week. However, the recent news of the US pausing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine due to a rare blood clotting disorder in six women who took it (one died and one in critical condition) and the issues in Europe with the AstraZeneca vaccine do illustrate that the concern some people have taking vaccines that are not fully approved aren't completely unfounded.


and I think that's what some people have some hesitancy. Its more of I just want to see a little bit more come out before I take mine. Also, there's going to be plenty that do not want to take it if they still have to live under restrictive shutdowns or unable to return to normalcy.

Nah at this point those people are just moving the goal posts again and again. 200,000,000 shots have been given in the USA. what do they need 400,000,000?


take a look at the news this morning, or more reports coming out of people who are fully vaccinated now testing positive. As more of these scenarios play out, its only going to keep hesitation. Government needs to come out and say if you are 100% vaccinated, you can live your life like its 2019. Then, I think you'd see an immediate jump.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:00 pm

CALMSP wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

and I think that's what some people have some hesitancy. Its more of I just want to see a little bit more come out before I take mine. Also, there's going to be plenty that do not want to take it if they still have to live under restrictive shutdowns or unable to return to normalcy.

Nah at this point those people are just moving the goal posts again and again. 200,000,000 shots have been given in the USA. what do they need 400,000,000?


take a look at the news this morning, or more reports coming out of people who are fully vaccinated now testing positive. As more of these scenarios play out, its only going to keep hesitation. Government needs to come out and say if you are 100% vaccinated, you can live your life like its 2019. Then, I think you'd see an immediate jump.


But that would be a lie. Some people will still get ill, but far fewer will die. That has always been true. The goal posts should be that if we get 80% vaccinated then this really will be about as contagious as the flu and most people can return to their old lives. At 30% vaccinated covid is still 2x more contagious.
 
11C
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:24 pm

Citrus1492 wrote:
26point2 wrote:
In the US there is some debate about the legality of mandating employees to get vaccinated. This issue is still developing as far as I understand it and it looks like it may be left up to the individual states to declare their policy.

What is the position with regards to airlines, their employees and the COVID vaccine? Will/are airlines requiring employees to get vaccinated?

My body, my choice. I will not be a lab rat for big pharma.
You can always say its against your religion. If your employer cans you, after telling them that, I see a large settlement in your future.


So how do we justify mandatory TB tests for medical personnel? How do we justify DOT mandated drug and alcohol testing? How do we justify anything with that philosophy? Do you also apply my body, my choice to a woman’s reproductive rights? And can everything be avoided by merely claiming, “its against my religion?” Do military members get to refuse vaccinations against bio agents? You make it sound so simple, but I would argue that it’s not.
 
travaz
Posts: 998
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: Will airlines require COVID vaccine for employees?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:26 pm

I live in Arizona and our Covid numbers are going down nicely. The last reported death was April 6. The number of cases is down greatly and hospitalizations are also down. Over 2.5 Arizonans have had at least 1 shot. 850,000 people had Covid. Our population is steadily approaching a high number of immunized people. The State has removed the mask mandate, however any business can mandate a mask to enter. Talking to friends and acquaintance everyone just want this to be over and most have gotten the vaccine. One of the problems in AZ is the huge number of untested migrants illegally entering our Southern border. This increases the chance of variants and other diseases. This fact is driving a lot of residents to get the vaccine( Anyone over 16 can get the vaccine in AZ) . Several Employers struggling with the question of required vaccines. I see no problem with an employer mandating vaccination and would hope that the trend continues to increase the number of vaccinated people.

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