Another airline in India going big - plan to order 108 aircraft split between A220's and E290's !
https://simpleflying.com/india-trujet-a220-e190/

Hope they've done their homework and look at where Kingfisher and Jet Airways have failed !

Do you mean E190s?

Can they operate such a big fleet? Weren’t there laws that would prevent such expansion... they were founded only some 8 years ago and operate only a handful of ATRs at the moment...

Can India sustain another big airline?
There are now Air India, SpiceJet, IndiGo, Vistara and GoAir, all quite big airlines.

Mayday111 wrote:

Do you mean E190s?

E290 is appropriate for the E-190 E2

TC957 wrote:

Another airline in India going big - plan to order 108 aircraft split between A220's and E290's !
https://simpleflying.com/india-trujet-a220-e190/

Hope they've done their homework and look at where Kingfisher and Jet Airways have failed !

Please note: simpleflying is not liked here...it is not really a "primary source" and they are often enough a little bit late.
It is also discussed in the A220 Sales Campaign thread (three days ago).
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1457803&p=22734631#p22731971
Simple Flying is OK, to use at start but than I would always try to find the original sources and I would post only the original one or the original one and the Simple as additional English source.

jbs2886 wrote:

Mayday111 wrote:

Do you mean E190s?

E290 is appropriate for the E-190 E2

According original sources, 54x A220 (not mentioned if A220-100 or 300) and 54x E190E2.

jbs2886 wrote:

Mayday111 wrote:

Do you mean E190s?

E290 is appropriate for the E-190 E2

I was confused but didn't realize that was the ICAO code for it.

Learned something!

T4thH wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Another airline in India going big - plan to order 108 aircraft split between A220's and E290's !
https://simpleflying.com/india-trujet-a220-e190/

Hope they've done their homework and look at where Kingfisher and Jet Airways have failed !

Please note: simpleflying is not liked here...it is not really a "primary source" and they are often enough a little bit late.
It is also discussed in the A220 Sales Campaign thread (three days ago).
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1457803&p=22734631#p22731971
Simple Flying is OK, to use at start but than I would always try to find the original sources and I would post only the original one or the original one and the Simple as additional English source.

jbs2886 wrote:

Mayday111 wrote:

Do you mean E190s?

E290 is appropriate for the E-190 E2

According original sources, 54x A220 (not mentioned if A220-100 or 300) and 54x E190E2.

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

What would be the reasoning behind buying two similar models? Wouldn't one standardized fleet make a lot more sense?

jbs2886 wrote:

T4thH wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Another airline in India going big - plan to order 108 aircraft split between A220's and E290's !
https://simpleflying.com/india-trujet-a220-e190/

Hope they've done their homework and look at where Kingfisher and Jet Airways have failed !

Please note: simpleflying is not liked here...it is not really a "primary source" and they are often enough a little bit late.
It is also discussed in the A220 Sales Campaign thread (three days ago).
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1457803&p=22734631#p22731971
Simple Flying is OK, to use at start but than I would always try to find the original sources and I would post only the original one or the original one and the Simple as additional English source.

jbs2886 wrote:

E290 is appropriate for the E-190 E2

According original sources, 54x A220 (not mentioned if A220-100 or 300) and 54x E190E2.

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

The Ex Korean one.. 55017.. It is dead. It is still owned by Bombardier and will be scrapped, if not already done. The frame will never be completed. It is the same with the other never completed frames 50007, 50008 and 50009. Seems they are not any more parked in Montreal and are already scrapped now.
Regarding the 6x RedWing NTU, three of them are already leased to Green African Airlines (already last year) and will be taken up in the next few month.
The other three were scheduled to Air Madagascar; as Air madagascar is in financial trouble, two will now go (most likely) to the Nigrian airlines Ibom Air.

So than only one is left.
But if I remember correctly regarding the original interview, Truejet will take new build ones. So as it is India (and there are high taxes on ne build "owned aircrafts"), these will be all owned by lessors at the end, so either Sale and lease back or directly ordered by lessors for TrueJet. This is common for all of the biig airlines of India, to avoid the taxes, most jets are leased.

T4thH wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

T4thH wrote:

Please note: simpleflying is not liked here...it is not really a "primary source" and they are often enough a little bit late.
It is also discussed in the A220 Sales Campaign thread (three days ago).
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1457803&p=22734631#p22731971
Simple Flying is OK, to use at start but than I would always try to find the original sources and I would post only the original one or the original one and the Simple as additional English source.


According original sources, 54x A220 (not mentioned if A220-100 or 300) and 54x E190E2.

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

The Ex Korean one.. 55017.. It is dead. It is still owned by Bombardier and will be scrapped, if not already done. The frame will never be completed. It is the same with the other never completed frames 50007, 50008 and 50009. Seems they are not any more parked in Montreal and are already scrapped now.
Regarding the 6x RedWing NTU, three of them are already leased to Green African Airlines (already last year) and will be taken up in the next few month.
The other three were scheduled to Air Madagascar; as Air madagascar is in financial trouble, two will now go (most likely) to the Nigrian airlines Ibom Air.

So than only one is left.
But if I remember correctly regarding the original interview, Truejet will take new build ones. So as it is India (and there are high taxes on ne build "owned aircrafts"), these will be all owned by lessors at the end, so either Sale and lease back or directly ordered by lessors for TrueJet. This is common for all of the biig airlines of India, to avoid the taxes, most jets are leased.

Thanks for the info. Trujet investors clearly said Airbus identified aircraft for delivery early immediately, any idea which ones they may be?

Boeing744 wrote:

What would be the reasoning behind buying two similar models? Wouldn't one standardized fleet make a lot more sense?

I can't come up with one. I guess it gives you pricing power in the future, but as we've seen with Southwest, Ryanair and Indigo, that's clearly not worth as much as a single fleet.

Antarius wrote:

Boeing744 wrote:

What would be the reasoning behind buying two similar models? Wouldn't one standardized fleet make a lot more sense?

I can't come up with one. I guess it gives you pricing power in the future, but as we've seen with Southwest, Ryanair and Indigo, that's clearly not worth as much as a single fleet.

Given the reported numbers for both the A220 and E2 are the same, I expect that it has signed some very tentative LOIs with both manufacturers, which will probably end with only one order. If they choose both, I doubt that there will be all 108 units will join the fleet, more likely they will take both of the ones that are immediately available and then lean more towards one type in later years.

On a different note, it would be good to see TruJet actually operate a TruJet for once!

jbs2886 wrote:

T4thH wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

The Ex Korean one.. 55017.. It is dead. It is still owned by Bombardier and will be scrapped, if not already done. The frame will never be completed. It is the same with the other never completed frames 50007, 50008 and 50009. Seems they are not any more parked in Montreal and are already scrapped now.
Regarding the 6x RedWing NTU, three of them are already leased to Green African Airlines (already last year) and will be taken up in the next few month.
The other three were scheduled to Air Madagascar; as Air madagascar is in financial trouble, two will now go (most likely) to the Nigrian airlines Ibom Air.

So than only one is left.
But if I remember correctly regarding the original interview, Truejet will take new build ones. So as it is India (and there are high taxes on ne build "owned aircrafts"), these will be all owned by lessors at the end, so either Sale and lease back or directly ordered by lessors for TrueJet. This is common for all of the biig airlines of India, to avoid the taxes, most jets are leased.

Thanks for the info. Trujet investors clearly said Airbus identified aircraft for delivery early immediately, any idea which ones they may be?

As I understood (I have not read it again), Airbus will be able to give them some regular but early production slots.
What has been seen in last years, an airline can get a production slot around 1 year to 1.25 years (first flight/delivery) in front of an order. Around one year will be needed as some parts (especially for the engines) need some time. The A220 pre-FAL building (former Bombardier CRJ production line building) is now in conversion, concrete work seems to be done and first machines are already delivered. It will be completed in part and start around end of this year, and in next years more and more of the pre-work (and machines) will be moved from the production line to the Pre-FAL. After this (start of the Pre-FAL, will be used for Mobile and Montreal and is in Montreal), the A220 production in Montreal and Mobile can be subsequently increased in next years from around maximum 5 per month now to 14 per month (expected to be reached, last scheduled for 2025). So the production numbers per month will increase in 2022 and more slots will be available.

so: "aircraft for delivery early immediately" means only, that TruJet will be able to get some of the next possible (regarding the one year preparation time) production slots available. So if they would order now, it is likely, first A220 will ready to be taken up in Q2 2022.

jbs2886 wrote:

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

Airbus does not have any "Red Wings NTU". All six are owned by GTLK and flown to Maastricht and Enschede for storage. Only one is known to be leased out soon, msn 55072 now carries registration EX-22002 for Air Manas, Kyrgystan.

I read about this potential order over the weekend and could not understand the commercial rationale of having A223s + E2-90s + AT7s.

Wouldn't it make more sense to standardize across 2 types i.e.

E90/E95-E2s + ATRs or A221/A223s + ATRs

behramjee wrote:

I read about this potential order over the weekend and could not understand the commercial rationale of having A223s + E2-90s + AT7s. Wouldn't it make more sense to standardize across 2 types i.e. E90/E95-E2s + ATRs or A221/A223s + ATRs

The only reason I can think of is delivery dates. If they are in a big, big hurry, getting aircraft from both manufacturers could shorten the time needed for production.

alfa164 wrote:

behramjee wrote:

I read about this potential order over the weekend and could not understand the commercial rationale of having A223s + E2-90s + AT7s. Wouldn't it make more sense to standardize across 2 types i.e. E90/E95-E2s + ATRs or A221/A223s + ATRs

The only reason I can think of is delivery dates. If they are in a big, big hurry, getting aircraft from both manufacturers could shorten the time needed for production.

Given COVID, I can't see that being the case.

I think the post a few up makes sense. They may not fill both LOIs in entirety and eventually standardize on a single fleet.

UA947 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

Airbus does not have any "Red Wings NTU". All six are owned by GTLK and flown to Maastricht and Enschede for storage. Only one is known to be leased out soon, msn 55072 now carries registration EX-22002 for Air Manas, Kyrgystan.

Three of them have been already leased last year to Green African Airways. Regarding COVID, the start has been delayed by one year.

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/gtlk-europe-leases-three-airbus-a220-300s-to-start-up-african-airline/The Airline expects to receive the certificate this or next month, will commence with first flights this summer and two of the three leased ATR-72 600 have been seen last days freshly painted in Green African colors in South Africa.
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10117380
The A220 crews have been trained or are just in training un Europe by Air Baltic. I have recently seen some pictures.

I am not sure about the potential though, especially during covid times for the next 1 to 3 years. India already has too many airlines and many Indian carriers in the past had grandiose plans, only to go banktrupt soon. They need to take a slow and steady approach (not too slow like GoAir), but not this fast either.

ATR has been good for TruJet, and they will retain ATR, may be supplement with A220 or Embraer, but not both.

Boeing744 wrote:

What would be the reasoning behind buying two similar models? Wouldn't one standardized fleet make a lot more sense?

behramjee wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to standardize across 2 types i.e.

That gets back to the A.net mentality of "commonality uber alles!"

There are however substantive reasons why a carrier may choose to order directly competitive models; chief among them being delivery time. Also the desire to not be beholden to the risk of a particular model/engine/etc, considering the groundings of everything from 787s, to 737MAXs, to struggles when 787 Tent and 777 PW engines.

LAX772LR wrote:

Boeing744 wrote:

What would be the reasoning behind buying two similar models? Wouldn't one standardized fleet make a lot more sense?

behramjee wrote:

Wouldn't it make more sense to standardize across 2 types i.e.

That gets back to the A.net mentality of "commonality uber alles!"

There are however substantive reasons why a carrier may choose to order directly competitive models; chief among them being delivery time. Also the desire to not be beholden to the risk of a particular model/engine/etc, considering the groundings of everything from 787s, to 737MAXs, to struggles when 787 Tent and 777 PW engines.

Commonality über alles tends to be a successful model. It's the airlines that operate 10 a320s that get starry eyed and buy 777s that end up broke.

The only airlines that have made it in India over the long term operate single fleets.

Antarius wrote:

Commonality über alles tends to be a successful model. It's the airlines that operate 10 a320s that get starry eyed and buy 777s that end up broke.

Except that that has nothing to do with the issue at hand here:
That's moving into a completely different market segment, using C-market aircraft of vastly different weight/capability/utilization/etc.... not taking two things that compete in the exact same manner/space/market/role and playing them off to one's advantage.

hohd wrote:

I am not sure about the potential though, especially during covid times for the next 1 to 3 years. India already has too many airlines and many Indian carriers in the past had grandiose plans, only to go banktrupt soon. They need to take a slow and steady approach (not too slow like GoAir), but not this fast either.

ATR has been good for TruJet, and they will retain ATR, may be supplement with A220 or Embraer, but not both.

Except the airline and its investors have specifically said both.

LAX772LR wrote:

Antarius wrote:

Commonality über alles tends to be a successful model. It's the airlines that operate 10 a320s that get starry eyed and buy 777s that end up broke.

Except that that has nothing to do with the issue at hand here:
That's moving into a completely different market segment, using C-market aircraft of vastly different weight/capability/utilization/etc.... not taking two things that compete in the exact same manner/space/market/role and playing them off to one's advantage.

Can you name an LCC that has succeeded operating multiple aircraft type in the same market segment off the bat? You have some that transition, but I can't think of anyone who has a capital intensive starting split fleet.

Antarius wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Antarius wrote:

Commonality über alles tends to be a successful model. It's the airlines that operate 10 a320s that get starry eyed and buy 777s that end up broke.

Except that that has nothing to do with the issue at hand here:
That's moving into a completely different market segment, using C-market aircraft of vastly different weight/capability/utilization/etc.... not taking two things that compete in the exact same manner/space/market/role and playing them off to one's advantage.

Can you name an LCC that has succeeded operating multiple aircraft type in the same market segment off the bat? You have some that transition, but I can't think of anyone who has a capital intensive starting split fleet.

Breeze!

sxf24 wrote:

Antarius wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Except that that has nothing to do with the issue at hand here:
That's moving into a completely different market segment, using C-market aircraft of vastly different weight/capability/utilization/etc.... not taking two things that compete in the exact same manner/space/market/role and playing them off to one's advantage.

Can you name an LCC that has succeeded operating multiple aircraft type in the same market segment off the bat? You have some that transition, but I can't think of anyone who has a capital intensive starting split fleet.

Breeze!

I don't believe they've even started operations yet. And if so, they're far too new to determine if they are successful.

Antarius wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Antarius wrote:

Commonality über alles tends to be a successful model. It's the airlines that operate 10 a320s that get starry eyed and buy 777s that end up broke.

Except that that has nothing to do with the issue at hand here:
That's moving into a completely different market segment, using C-market aircraft of vastly different weight/capability/utilization/etc.... not taking two things that compete in the exact same manner/space/market/role and playing them off to one's advantage.

Can you name an LCC that has succeeded operating multiple aircraft type in the same market segment off the bat? You have some that transition, but I can't think of anyone who has a capital intensive starting split fleet.

Ever heard of JetBlue? ...they introduced their second fleet type when they were a younger age than TruJet is now, by several years in fact.
And before you bother: no, the markets were not different, as there was plenty of crossover and interchange between the two of them.

Its not like the airline has been doing well with its ATR operations either..


TruJet may raise ₹250 crore to stay afloat
Its fleet contains aircraft of the ATR family . In September 2020, the airline had dues to the tune of over ₹270 crore to its lessors. The lessors grounded five out of seven aircraft over unpaid dues. Later, with negotiations and payment of dues, the aircraft were released.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 794648.ece

trinidadeG wrote:

Its not like the airline has been doing well with its ATR operations either..


TruJet may raise ₹250 crore to stay afloat
Its fleet contains aircraft of the ATR family . In September 2020, the airline had dues to the tune of over ₹270 crore to its lessors. The lessors grounded five out of seven aircraft over unpaid dues. Later, with negotiations and payment of dues, the aircraft were released.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 794648.ece

During a pandemic. Either way, there is a new investor running the airline now.

EBT wrote:

Antarius wrote:

Boeing744 wrote:

What would be the reasoning behind buying two similar models? Wouldn't one standardized fleet make a lot more sense?

I can't come up with one. I guess it gives you pricing power in the future, but as we've seen with Southwest, Ryanair and Indigo, that's clearly not worth as much as a single fleet.

Given the reported numbers for both the A220 and E2 are the same, I expect that it has signed some very tentative LOIs with both manufacturers, which will probably end with only one order. If they choose both, I doubt that there will be all 108 units will join the fleet, more likely they will take both of the ones that are immediately available and then lean more towards one type in later years.

I don´t see how a 114 and a 160 (or 135) seat aircraft are really similar. Much more dissimilar than flying the 737-8 and A321n in size, and probably more engine spare parts interchangeable than between an LEAP-1A and 1B too.

best regards
Thomas

jbs2886 wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

Its not like the airline has been doing well with its ATR operations either..


TruJet may raise ₹250 crore to stay afloat
Its fleet contains aircraft of the ATR family . In September 2020, the airline had dues to the tune of over ₹270 crore to its lessors. The lessors grounded five out of seven aircraft over unpaid dues. Later, with negotiations and payment of dues, the aircraft were released.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 794648.ece

During a pandemic.

Not really. TruJet has been losing money for many years now. They had planned to grow their fleet to 18 ATRs by 2020 but barely managed 7.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 199025.cms


The quoted article too mentions its 2019 losses.

Either way, there is a new investor running the airline now.

We don't really know for sure if the new 'investor' is running the show, except for this one 'exclusive interview'.

I'd wait for MEIL to make a statement, or for the airline to confirm that they're indeed going in for the expansion. As an investor, INTERUPS is entitled to appoint people to the board, hence the ex Indian Airlines executives. But it doesn't mean the investor gets to 'run the show".

jbs2886 wrote:

T4thH wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

Right, I posted in the A220 thread. Per CH aviation, Airbus and Embraer have identified 14 aircraft in total that can be delivered almost immediately. I believe the A220 is the -300 as Airbus has the 6 Red Wings NTU and 1 Korean Air, but not sure what condition that’s in. I don’t believe there are any -100s.

The Ex Korean one.. 55017.. It is dead. It is still owned by Bombardier and will be scrapped, if not already done. The frame will never be completed. It is the same with the other never completed frames 50007, 50008 and 50009. Seems they are not any more parked in Montreal and are already scrapped now.
Regarding the 6x RedWing NTU, three of them are already leased to Green African Airlines (already last year) and will be taken up in the next few month.
The other three were scheduled to Air Madagascar; as Air madagascar is in financial trouble, two will now go (most likely) to the Nigrian airlines Ibom Air.

So than only one is left.
But if I remember correctly regarding the original interview, Truejet will take new build ones. So as it is India (and there are high taxes on ne build "owned aircrafts"), these will be all owned by lessors at the end, so either Sale and lease back or directly ordered by lessors for TrueJet. This is common for all of the biig airlines of India, to avoid the taxes, most jets are leased.

Thanks for the info. Trujet investors clearly said Airbus identified aircraft for delivery early immediately, any idea which ones they may be?

It doesn't have to be already built and stored aircraft. It could just as well be shortly upcoming deliveries to another customer that wants to delay. Think Air Baltic, Air France, Czech Airlines, Air Vanuatu etc. Air travel is down, lots of customers wouldn't mind pushing deliveries out a bit. From what I can see, there are 5 A220s for Air Baltic, Air Austral and Swiss soon to be delivered. Maybe some customers would even be willing to "sell back" some already delivered aircraft in exchange for new deliveries at a later point.

tommy1808 wrote:

EBT wrote:

Antarius wrote:

I can't come up with one. I guess it gives you pricing power in the future, but as we've seen with Southwest, Ryanair and Indigo, that's clearly not worth as much as a single fleet.

Given the reported numbers for both the A220 and E2 are the same, I expect that it has signed some very tentative LOIs with both manufacturers, which will probably end with only one order. If they choose both, I doubt that there will be all 108 units will join the fleet, more likely they will take both of the ones that are immediately available and then lean more towards one type in later years.

I don´t see how a 114 and a 160 (or 135) seat aircraft are really similar. Much more dissimilar than flying the 737-8 and A321n in size, and probably more engine spare parts interchangeable than between an LEAP-1A and 1B too.

best regards
Thomas

Agreed.

It’s not that surprising that an airline would consider having both the E2 and the A220. I know that the A220 variant under consideration is not specified, but I can’t imagine they would consider something other than the 300. The 100 is really just for carriers who need its performance for certain missions, and who probably already have the 300. The 100 is a shrink. The 300 is the base model.

So, I will assume we’re comparing the E190 E2 vs the A220-300. In this case, it’s apples and oranges. Better comparisons for the A220-300 are the B737-7 and A319NEO.

I don’t think so many people would think it was weird to have a fleet with both the B737-7 and the E190 E2.

jbs2886 wrote:

Mayday111 wrote:

Do you mean E190s?

E290 is appropriate for the E-190 E2

Thanks for teaching me something new.