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ScottB
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:08 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
You mean muddy the waters to the point that it would be almost impossible to come up with accurate figures to compare apples with apples? Were there also no emissions in building the aircraft, building the airports, building the oils wells, production platforms and refineries... building the super tankers and the oil pipelines?

I'm a huge aviation nut but I wont come up with arguments that put me on the same level as a NIMBY complaining about an airport that was built before my house.

The infrastructure has already been built. Much of the world is working towards emissions targets that were set after that effort was made. No need to take into account something that cannot be undone.


Well, there should be some consideration given to the emissions created by building new infrastructure -- if that infrastructure is intended to replace existing facilities which have not reached the end of their useful lifespan. This is particularly true if one expects even more efficient options to become available by the time the existing aircraft, generation facility, truck, bus, car, etc. reaches the expected end of service. In other words, it's probably bad to junk a 5-year-old plane or car just to realize 1% more efficiency from a new one. By the same token, perhaps building a pipeline still makes sense if the overall lifetime emissions created by building the pipeline and operating it are lower than those which would occur by using less efficient methods of transporting petroleum like rail or truck.
 
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zkojq
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:10 pm

The TGV network is a classic case of "if you build it, they will come". Compared to similar sized countries, the French domestic air travel market is quite small for this reasons.

Whilst I'm not opposed to this, I do generally think that its better to just put a price on carbon emissions and let the free market do its thing (with said carbon tax being spent on planting trees and other carbon mitigation efforts).

For all the naysayers, the new TGVs are really, really comfortable. Between the amount of personal space and legroom you get, the quietness, being able to actually fit into the bathroom, wifi etc it really is no contest between the TGVs and flying - unless you're an avgeek.

P.S. can we please have a high speed line down to Nice? Six hours to Paris isn't very competitive.

Virtual737 wrote:
I'm a huge aviation nut but I wont come up with arguments that put me on the same level as a NIMBY complaining about an airport that was built before my house.

The infrastructure has already been built. Much of the world is working towards emissions targets that were set after that effort was made. No need to take into account something that cannot be undone.


:checkmark:
First to fly the 787-9
 
VSMUT
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:12 pm

Capricorn wrote:
Well, if the TGV stops at CDG then I see less of a problem. But from my experience it is a pain in the ass to travel by train with a lot of luggage, much more comfortable by plane.


But is it really? I mean you have to lug your own suitcase onto the train, but there is much more space on the train. Keep in mind that the flights in question here are likely flown by CRJs. That means very little space in the cabin for hand luggage, so gate-checked luggage or dropping it off at the plane.


Capricorn wrote:
Furthermore, inbound passenger, often coming from another continent, have a preference to directly arrive at the destination. If AF for example can't offer LYS-CDG any longer that probably means transfer passengers need to be funnelled through AMS more.


What's more direct to the destination than arriving by train? Anyway, connecting passengers will still be allowed, and AF already has a lot of flights from secondary French cities to Amsterdam.


B737MAX wrote:
Short haul flights are responsible for a very, very little part of the global pollution in aviation.
It just doesn't make any sense.


Aviation has to contribute. Short haul can be replaced with trains, long haul can't.

Just to keep the perspective, these are flights competing with train rides of less than 2:30. It takes an hour from Paris city centre to CDG Terminal 2G. Add at least another hour waiting at the airport and probably at least 30 minutes to get to the city centre at the destination. In other words, getting to and from the airport eats up the same amount of time without even including the time of the flight (or the 20 minutes it takes to get to/from the runways in CDG).
Even between Paris and Toulouse, the fastest train only takes around 30 minutes longer than the realistic shortest flight including transport to and from the airports, and Toulouse isn't even attached to a HSR line!


B737MAX wrote:
People should have the choice. Not be forced to use their "high speed" trains while planes are available.
This sounds completely crazy to me.


Railways in the EU are being liberalized. DB and SNCF are beginning to enter each others markets, along with a couple of new upstarts like Flixtrain. SNCF has low-cost subsidiary called Ouigo, running high density TGVs. On distances this short, express coaches can even compete. The choice is building up.
 
alasizon
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:15 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Those routes are already dominated by trains. If they expand that to international routes, that would be more impactful.


How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:25 pm

alasizon wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Those routes are already dominated by trains. If they expand that to international routes, that would be more impactful.


How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


Eurostar to London makes the journey in under 2.5 hours and there are plenty of flights on that route
 
blockski
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:27 pm

ScottB wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
Lets take PHL for example. Flights to BWI, ABE, MDT, IPT, LGA, JFK all flights under 100 miles. Do you really need a regional flight to PHL when you can drive there? Most of those airports are connected by rail.


Some of those airports/cities may be accessible by rail, but they're not exactly well-connected to PHL. BWI, for example, would require a train ride up to 30th Street Station and then a transfer to the Airport Line. Pretty much anything is going to require a connection in downtown Philly, which adds time and inconvenience, especially as the Airport Line runs half-hourly.

And a connection from BWI/ABE/MDT/LGA/JFK at PHL really isn't necessarily about passengers wanting to catch a flight at PHL; it's about AA being able to compete for those passengers with its PHL hub. IPT only has service to PHL, and I suppose that could end, but there's no passenger rail service at Williamsport and air service is often viewed as important for communities to remain economically competitive.


This is missing the purpose of the proposed law. The law would (if applied in the US to PHL) ban selling tickets to passengers from BWI-PHL who don't have a connection. Those passengers likely have a destination in Philadelphia that's not the airport, therefore there's no need to double-back on the Airport Line.

As you note, those flights mostly exist for connections as it is, but if they went away when there are perfectly suitable alternative options (that are already competitive on time and fare), what's the problem?
 
kalvado
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:27 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Just to keep the perspective, these are flights competing with train rides of less than 2:30. It takes an hour from Paris city centre to CDG Terminal 2G. Add at least another hour waiting at the airport and probably at least 30 minutes to get to the city centre at the destination. In other words, getting to and from the airport eats up the same amount of time without even including the time of the flight (or the 20 minutes it takes to get to/from the runways in CDG).
Even between Paris and Toulouse, the fastest train only takes around 30 minutes longer than the realistic shortest flight including transport to and from the airports, and Toulouse isn't even attached to a HSR line!

Thing is, if things are that good - trains should already have most of local traffic, and the law is moot. There would be no real competition - except for, maybe, keeping prices honest as there are options. I would love to see statistics on that.
For comparison, my city in US has CRJ service - as well as trains and buses - going to nearest megacity (NYC) with a train scheduled runtime of 2.25 - 2.40 depending on the train. Pretty similar scenario, I would say.
UA has maybe 200-300 daily seats to EWR, mostly for connecting traffic; trains carried an average of 2400 people a day pre-covid; I assume most (say 2000) go direct to NYC. Not sure about buses, I would hazard to guess 500 seat a day.
So a similar law would have no real impact - but may affect pricing.
 
B737MAX
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:29 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
B737MAX wrote:
People should have the choice. Not be forced to use their "high speed" trains while planes are available.
This sounds completely crazy to me.

Progressive transport? Yeah right!
Short haul flights are responsible for a very, very little part of the global pollution in aviation.
It just doesn't make any sense.

Lets take PHL for example. Flights to BWI, ABE, MDT, IPT, LGA, JFK all flights under 100 miles. Do you really need a regional flight to PHL when you can drive there? Most of those airports are connected by rail.
Do you have a reliable source that short flights generate little pollution? Its more of an overall picture, why connect nearby airports when you have drive or connect by rail? Short flights only make sense if the city or town is difficult to access because of bodies or water or mountains.


Less than 100 miles? Driving is faster anyway, who cares about connecting flights in that case.
BOD/NTE-ORY is not quite the same...

And yes, just read this:

https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication ... t-distance

They are not going to change anything to the global warming issue with such a measure.
It's symbolic, a punition and it only adds one more bad image of aviation to the lambda public.

Complete nonsense.



I
 
Virtual737
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:30 pm

ScottB wrote:
Well, there should be some consideration given to the emissions created by building new infrastructure....


I agree. My answers were (mostly) based on the specifics of this thread where it relates to France.

The UK would be a different matter. Travelling from my original hometown to, say, Aberdeen, would take 3 weeks, 2 passports and a second mortgage by train. Flybe typically only charged me the same as flying to a longhaul holiday destination while allowing me to use my wife's purse as a carryon bag.
 
alasizon
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:30 pm

Westerwaelder wrote:
alasizon wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Those routes are already dominated by trains. If they expand that to international routes, that would be more impactful.


How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


Eurostar to London makes the journey in under 2.5 hours and there are plenty of flights on that route


Once a day is the only time that is reachable by train in under 2.5 hours (and just barely, 2:29 westbound), pretty hard to say that qualifies as reachable by train in under 2.5 hours when 90% of the day you can't.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
VSMUT
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:32 pm

alasizon wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Those routes are already dominated by trains. If they expand that to international routes, that would be more impactful.


How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


London. The fastest I get is 2:31 by train.

Basel and Amsterdam are just under an hour over the limit. Stuttgart is closer at 3:17. Luxembourg comes in at 2:43. If we count the Ruhr area as one, it is 3:34 from Paris to Köln, while AF flies to Düsseldorf.

Some of these could probably be brought within 2:30 with schedule optimizations only. Others still run on slow tracks part of the way.
 
Virtual737
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:36 pm

B737MAX wrote:


Long haul flights creating the majority of emissions doesn't mean that short haul flights create none. Looking at reducing emissions from short haul flights wont be the only area being looked at. 50 individual ideas that reduce emissions is no bad idea, unless all 50 were looked at in isolation and the conclusion for each was the same as yours.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:50 pm

B737MAX wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
B737MAX wrote:
People should have the choice. Not be forced to use their "high speed" trains while planes are available.
This sounds completely crazy to me.

Progressive transport? Yeah right!
Short haul flights are responsible for a very, very little part of the global pollution in aviation.
It just doesn't make any sense.

Lets take PHL for example. Flights to BWI, ABE, MDT, IPT, LGA, JFK all flights under 100 miles. Do you really need a regional flight to PHL when you can drive there? Most of those airports are connected by rail.
Do you have a reliable source that short flights generate little pollution? Its more of an overall picture, why connect nearby airports when you have drive or connect by rail? Short flights only make sense if the city or town is difficult to access because of bodies or water or mountains.


Less than 100 miles? Driving is faster anyway, who cares about connecting flights in that case.
BOD/NTE-ORY is not quite the same...

And yes, just read this:

https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication ... t-distance

They are not going to change anything to the global warming issue with such a measure.
It's symbolic, a punition and it only adds one more bad image of aviation to the lambda public.

Complete nonsense.


Great, the carbon emissions is lower overall but that doesn't mean much to me. I have a hard time understanding the data. When they said 4.3% CO2 total emissions I don't see a full total or what airport(s) they selected the study from. I have a hard time believing all the data that I can see right now. Yes I fully understand long haul flights produce way more CO2 but the short haul I have a hard time believing that it produces so little. 2020 was a year where a bunch of short haul flights was cut so could have that played in the role of the small carbon emissions output from short haul flights? I'm not attacking you, just asking questions.
 
B737MAX
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:06 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
B737MAX wrote:


Long haul flights creating the majority of emissions doesn't mean that short haul flights create none. Looking at reducing emissions from short haul flights wont be the only area being looked at. 50 individual ideas that reduce emissions is no bad idea, unless all 50 were looked at in isolation and the conclusion for each was the same as yours.


True. Unless all those 50 ideas don't change anything to the issue, even all together.
 
B737MAX
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:08 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
Great, the carbon emissions is lower overall but that doesn't mean much to me. I have a hard time understanding the data. When they said 4.3% CO2 total emissions I don't see a full total or what airport(s) they selected the study from. I have a hard time believing all the data that I can see right now. Yes I fully understand long haul flights produce way more CO2 but the short haul I have a hard time believing that it produces so little. 2020 was a year where a bunch of short haul flights was cut so could have that played in the role of the small carbon emissions output from short haul flights? I'm not attacking you, just asking questions.


I agree it's quite hard to say. But one thing is pretty sure, this kind of restriction will not change anything to the climate issue.
It will only cause disasters for those who will loose their jobs, especially in such a crisis.
 
DFW17L
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:09 pm

Carbon from the winemaking process is five times more concentrated than planes and cars. A litre of juice produces 60 litres of carbon dioxide. Why aren't we trapping it? “A single bottle of wine contains 80g of carbon dioxide. Source: vinex.market, Moritz Buehner, 8/1/12.
 
sandyb123
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:10 pm

B737MAX wrote:
People should have the choice. Not be forced to use their "high speed" trains while planes are available.
This sounds completely crazy to me.

Progressive transport? Yeah right!
Short haul flights are responsible for a very, very little part of the global pollution in aviation.
It just doesn't make any sense.


Short haul flights are more polluting per mile as more time is spent in the high fuel burn phases of flight (take off & climb) and typically flying through congested airspace in Europe, where we’re talking.

Speaking as a aviation and railway enthusiast, the train *should* be the better option for city pairs and in continental Europe it’s often fast, frequent and excellent.

I rode the TGV Duplex on the Mediterranean line from Paris a few years back and boy that was some ride. 320kph (200mph) city centre to city centre. No security, you can walk around, there’s a bar and a view.

I’d take that any day over a rammed A320 / 737 domestic Y (remember we don’t have short haul F here).

Remember that the high speed railway is electric and powered by the cleanest power of all.

As the gov recognises some people connect and trains don’t compete everywhere, the legislation seems balanced and progressive to me.

Sandyb123
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cschleic
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:32 pm

par13del wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
That's great - making a law to tell people how and where they can travel. They should let people decide for themselves, in my opinion. A person that wants to travel by plane should be allowed to do so. They probably have a good reason for it - for example, they want to transfer to another flight at CDG.

If the French government wants to cut unnecessary carbon emissions, they should take away the President's private jet.

How exactly do you think the mass transit systems in Europe got to be so extensive, by putting in place taxes to drive / control citizen choices. Unlike the Middle East for example where they charge cents for a gallon of gas at the pump, in most of Europe the taxes and vehicle insurance charges are elevated to push folks to use mass transit.
Diesel vehicles are a good example, now that they know they are more toxic than gas, they are raising taxes and eliminating incentives to buy them and switch back to gas or electric.


While taxes can be a policy tool to drive behavior and results, you can't directly compare gas prices in ME countries to Europe. ME prices are subsidized (or they were, I think, in Saudi Arabia but that is changing), there's much less road infrastructure in some countries, etc. Apples and oranges. There's also a significant difference in Europe's geography of shorter distances with trains being a more viable alternative. Europe had large train networks long before there were as many cars as now and gas prices increased significantly.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:42 pm

DFW17L wrote:
Carbon from the winemaking process is five times more concentrated than planes and cars. A litre of juice produces 60 litres of carbon dioxide. Why aren't we trapping it? “A single bottle of wine contains 80g of carbon dioxide. Source: vinex.market, Moritz Buehner, 8/1/12.


You are taking that quote out of context. The carbon in the wine is carbon neutral (assuming it is organic). The same amount of carbon was taken out of the atmosphere to produce the wine. (Capturing the carbon from fermentation could help offset the carbin used in producton though). Burning aviation fuel is a one way street.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:50 pm

B737MAX wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
B737MAX wrote:


Long haul flights creating the majority of emissions doesn't mean that short haul flights create none. Looking at reducing emissions from short haul flights wont be the only area being looked at. 50 individual ideas that reduce emissions is no bad idea, unless all 50 were looked at in isolation and the conclusion for each was the same as yours.


True. Unless all those 50 ideas don't change anything to the issue, even all together.

Anything is cumlitive though. If one less person is on a fligh, less fuel will be burned. It will be an insignificant fraction of the world's emissions, but if all burning of fosil fuel was stoped the
difference would be huge . Somewhere in between the difference becomes significant. Unless we want a disastrous sudden stop to carbon emissions we will have to address the problem by a significant amount of insignificant changes.
 
DFW17L
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:06 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
DFW17L wrote:
Carbon from the winemaking process is five times more concentrated than planes and cars. A litre of juice produces 60 litres of carbon dioxide. Why aren't we trapping it? “A single bottle of wine contains 80g of carbon dioxide. Source: vinex.market, Moritz Buehner, 8/1/12.


You are taking that quote out of context. The carbon in the wine is carbon neutral (assuming it is organic). The same amount of carbon was taken out of the atmosphere to produce the wine. (Capturing the carbon from fermentation could help offset the carbin used in producton though). Burning aviation fuel is a one way street.


Sweet. I'll take two cases of Pouilly-Fuissé, si vous plait.
Last edited by DFW17L on Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
speedbird52
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:07 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
And yet here in the Uk we're still quibbling about building the first (domestic) high speed line. I live in Edinburgh and London is 4 and a half hours by train. It's just long enough that flying is still competitive (flight time 1 hour 20 plus faff) and the new High Speed line HS2 will not benefit this routing.

Good for the French for having progressive transport and energy policy. Don't get me started on Nuclear and Renewables!

Sandyb123

As an American, I am not sure you can complain lol
 
P3guy
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:25 pm

Good news for France if viable. Hopefully this is not an instance of politicians making uneducated decisions without considering the unintended consequences. Easy to say you can fly within France if making an onward connection but will airlines find that viable. I wonder when California will be ready to jump onboard......lol. The good news is we will be ready to replace the Bakersfield to Madera flights with "fast" trains in 5-10 years.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:38 pm

winter wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
B737MAX wrote:
People should have the choice. Not be forced to use their "high speed" trains while planes are available.
This sounds completely crazy to me.

Progressive transport? Yeah right!
Short haul flights are responsible for a very, very little part of the global pollution in aviation.
It just doesn't make any sense.

Lets take PHL for example. Flights to BWI, ABE, MDT, IPT, LGA, JFK all flights under 100 miles. Do you really need a regional flight to PHL when you can drive there? Most of those airports are connected by rail.
Do you have a reliable source that short flights generate little pollution? Its more of an overall picture, why connect nearby airports when you have drive or connect by rail? Short flights only make sense if the city or town is difficult to access because of bodies or water or mountains.


People generally aren’t flying point to point on these flights to PHL, their connecting on AA to further flights.

And requiring people to [rent cars and] drive the the two hours produces more emissions than the flight.


Driving, yes, you would be right. However Philadelphia Airport has a railway station, what would be the problem with having trains run between the airport and places in the wide surrounding area? That's the way it is done in Europe, it can be done in America as well.

Let's say someone wants to get from Atlantic City to Paris. American Airlines could offer them a ticket Atlantic City - Philadelphia - Paris, where Atlantic City to Philadelphia Airport is operated by NJ Transit. Currently this line terminates at Philadelphia 30th street station, but it could easily be extended to the airport. And Atlantic City is just one example, it could work for a lot more destinations like that.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:47 pm

This all seems fair. We’d never be able to do this in the United States. Many miles of track would need to be upgraded and much more financial support given to Amtrak. Americans also think they have a right to fly anywhere they please. That said, I’ve often enjoyed the TGV from Lyon into Paris and believe this law may help support it even more.
 
debonair
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:53 pm

a350lover wrote:
So what's the future for HOP after this?


Any exemptions for domestic, regional airlines like twinjet and CHALAIR?!
And what will happen to Corsair new Lyon - Marseille - La Réunion A339 service?!
 
wjcandee
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s about virtue signaling, not carbon reduction.


The plane's gonna fly anyway, and most people already take the train, but to be virtuous, we're gonna not let people fly. Stupid. Asinine. Let's hope it doesn't start a trend.
 
Elementalism
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:59 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
This all seems fair. We’d never be able to do this in the United States. Many miles of track would need to be upgraded and much more financial support given to Amtrak. Americans also think they have a right to fly anywhere they please. That said, I’ve often enjoyed the TGV from Lyon into Paris and believe this law may help support it even more.


France is the size of Texas with population density 3x that of Texas. Texas is one of 50 states in the United States, many of which was even less dense. That is why you will not see HSR in most of the United States anytime soon. The best options for the US and HSR is the NE corridor. But red tape and land prices will make the costs untenable.
 
DFW17L
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:48 pm

Elementalism wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
This all seems fair. We’d never be able to do this in the United States. Many miles of track would need to be upgraded and much more financial support given to Amtrak. Americans also think they have a right to fly anywhere they please. That said, I’ve often enjoyed the TGV from Lyon into Paris and believe this law may help support it even more.


France is the size of Texas with population density 3x that of Texas. Texas is one of 50 states in the United States, many of which was even less dense. That is why you will not see HSR in most of the United States anytime soon. The best options for the US and HSR is the NE corridor. But red tape and land prices will make the costs untenable.


Not just the NE corridor. Don’t forget Texas Central Railway. A *private* venture to provide HSR between Dallas and Houston, using Shinkansen 700 series.

<pedantic> Population of France is 2.1x of the Lone Star Star.</pedantic>
 
Aliqiout
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:34 pm

wjcandee wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s about virtue signaling, not carbon reduction.


The plane's gonna fly anyway, and most people already take the train, but to be virtuous, we're gonna not let people fly. Stupid. Asinine. Let's hope it doesn't start a trend.

Why is the plane going to still fly????

Even assuming frequency and gauge remain the same lifting a person 25,000 feet into the air requires burning fuel in an amount directly proportional to their weight, this is a waste when it doesn't even offer a benefit of faster transportation.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 140
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:08 am

Aliqiout wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s about virtue signaling, not carbon reduction.


The plane's gonna fly anyway, and most people already take the train, but to be virtuous, we're gonna not let people fly. Stupid. Asinine. Let's hope it doesn't start a trend.

Why is the plane going to still fly????

Even assuming frequency and gauge remain the same lifting a person 25,000 feet into the air requires burning fuel in an amount directly proportional to their weight, this is a waste when it doesn't even offer a benefit of faster transportation.


the difference in fuel burn of a plane coming from a passenger occupying a seat as opposed to a seat flying empty is negligible

if you take an extreme measure such as banning someone someone from flying a certain route you need to have a meaningful impact where you can say that the benefit outweighs the cost on freedom / rights
 
ikramerica
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:57 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Only an issue when the TGV goes on strike.

Or when the train breaks down and they eventually send another one to push yours, but decide to terminate the route at Sud instead of continuing to CDG, forcing you to take a taxi to CDG at your expense or wait for their bus.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:46 am

afgeneral wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

The plane's gonna fly anyway, and most people already take the train, but to be virtuous, we're gonna not let people fly. Stupid. Asinine. Let's hope it doesn't start a trend.

Why is the plane going to still fly????

Even assuming frequency and gauge remain the same lifting a person 25,000 feet into the air requires burning fuel in an amount directly proportional to their weight, this is a waste when it doesn't even offer a benefit of faster transportation.


the difference in fuel burn of a plane coming from a passenger occupying a seat as opposed to a seat flying empty is negligible

if you take an extreme measure such as banning someone someone from flying a certain route you need to have a meaningful impact where you can say that the benefit outweighs the cost on freedom / rights

Assuming perfect efficiency it takes about 8 million joules just for the vertical part of the trip. Each person who isn't on the flight will save that much fossil fuel energy. Every significant achievement is made up of "insignificant" parts.

Keeping one person from using a CFC can of hairspray certainly was insignificant, yet we solved the ozone hole crisis with the cumulative effects of all the insignificant individual effects of each CFC regulation in each person's actions.
 
blandy62
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:09 am

there are not a lot of passengers flying purely those routes in the first place. once you factor in everything, TGV is faster and more convenient anyways
 
Westerwaelder
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:28 am

alasizon wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
alasizon wrote:

How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


Eurostar to London makes the journey in under 2.5 hours and there are plenty of flights on that route


Once a day is the only time that is reachable by train in under 2.5 hours (and just barely, 2:29 westbound), pretty hard to say that qualifies as reachable by train in under 2.5 hours when 90% of the day you can't.


Eurostar advertises the journey as 2:17. They, like many others, are offering reduced service right now
 
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Francoflier
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:37 am

DFW17L wrote:
Sweet. I'll take two cases of Pouilly-Fuissé, si vous plait.


Amusingly, the Paris to Lyon TGV line goes right across the area were Pouilly-Fuisse is made.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
raylee67
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:31 am

VSMUT wrote:
alasizon wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Those routes are already dominated by trains. If they expand that to international routes, that would be more impactful.


How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


London. The fastest I get is 2:31 by train.

Basel and Amsterdam are just under an hour over the limit. Stuttgart is closer at 3:17. Luxembourg comes in at 2:43. If we count the Ruhr area as one, it is 3:34 from Paris to Köln, while AF flies to Düsseldorf.

Some of these could probably be brought within 2:30 with schedule optimizations only. Others still run on slow tracks part of the way.


Really... seems like European trains travel slower than the Japanese ones then. I have only taken the ICE a handful of time. Have not done TGV at all. But have been on Shinkansen a lot. I thought TGV/ICE travels at around the same speed as Shinkansen, so I was thinking 2:30 would cover a lot more.

For example, Tokyo-Osaka has the same distance (around 400km) as Paris-Amsterdam, Paris-Dusseldorf and Paris-Basel. Shinkansen would complete the Tokyo-Osaka trip in 2:30 exactly, with a stop at Nagoya, Kyoto and Yokohama in between. From what you said, the European trains take about 3:30 instead on these. May be the infrastructure needs to be improved first then. TGV/ICE should only travel on dedicated high-speed tracks all the way.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
MileHFL400
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:41 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
There are some things that are pretty uniquely French that make this work:

1. They've spent 45 years building out a comprehensive TGV network.

2. Over 90% of electrical generation in 2019 was carbon-free: nuclear (overwhelmingly) but also hydro, wind and solar.

3. Long-haul air travel is almost exclusively centered on a single city, Paris (although across two airports), so connections to the provinces are significantly aggregated.

4. Somebody had the foresight 30 years ago to make CDG2 a big TGV station, with 15 million passengers in 2019.



And they love a good strike
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
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MrBren
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:21 am

raylee67 wrote:
For example, Tokyo-Osaka has the same distance (around 400km) as Paris-Amsterdam, Paris-Dusseldorf and Paris-Basel. Shinkansen would complete the Tokyo-Osaka trip in 2:30 exactly, with a stop at Nagoya, Kyoto and Yokohama in between. From what you said, the European trains take about 3:30 instead on these. May be the infrastructure needs to be improved first then. TGV/ICE should only travel on dedicated high-speed tracks all the way.


Really? Paris to Lyon is about 400 km and takes 2 hours.
 
jumpjets
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:12 am

alasizon wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Those routes are already dominated by trains. If they expand that to international routes, that would be more impactful.


How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


The London to Paris Eurostar does ( or did pre Covid) in as little as two and a quarter hours. I live in South West London, just off the LHR flighpaths, and since the advent of Eurostar have never flown to Paris from London as Eurostar is so much more efficient and comfortable than BA/AF, though over the years the increased security and passenger numbers at StPancras has narrowed the gap between the two experiences.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:22 am

TGV is way more convenient than any flight on those routes and the market already adapted "naturally".

But keep in mind that there is presidential elections next year. Governement will do any virtue signalling possible to get some "Green" voices.

nota: those same "Greens" are pushing for the end of nuclear electricity that makes the TGV clean.
Caravelle lover
 
Virtual737
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:46 am

ikramerica wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
Only an issue when the TGV goes on strike.

Or when the train breaks down and they eventually send another one to push yours, but decide to terminate the route at Sud instead of continuing to CDG, forcing you to take a taxi to CDG at your expense or wait for their bus.


Did you really just bring up the possibilities of maintenance issues, cancellations and diversions to show that air travel is better than rail travel?
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:13 am

zkojq wrote:
The TGV network is a classic case of "if you build it, they will come". Compared to similar sized countries, the French domestic air travel market is quite small for this reasons.

Whilst I'm not opposed to this, I do generally think that its better to just put a price on carbon emissions and let the free market do its thing (with said carbon tax being spent on planting trees and other carbon mitigation efforts).


Same has been seen in Germany for a long time. Long-standing routes such as Hamburg - Berlin, Bremen - Berlin, Bremen - Cologne, Frankfurt - Cologne have all disappeared with the ICE (InterCity Express, German equivalent to the TGV) network being constantly expanded.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
VSMUT
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:24 am

raylee67 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
alasizon wrote:

How many International routes in France are reachable by 2.5 hours or less via train? CDG>BRU is the only route off-hand I can think of which is a whopping 1x daily on SN.


London. The fastest I get is 2:31 by train.

Basel and Amsterdam are just under an hour over the limit. Stuttgart is closer at 3:17. Luxembourg comes in at 2:43. If we count the Ruhr area as one, it is 3:34 from Paris to Köln, while AF flies to Düsseldorf.

Some of these could probably be brought within 2:30 with schedule optimizations only. Others still run on slow tracks part of the way.


Really... seems like European trains travel slower than the Japanese ones then. I have only taken the ICE a handful of time. Have not done TGV at all. But have been on Shinkansen a lot. I thought TGV/ICE travels at around the same speed as Shinkansen, so I was thinking 2:30 would cover a lot more.

For example, Tokyo-Osaka has the same distance (around 400km) as Paris-Amsterdam, Paris-Dusseldorf and Paris-Basel. Shinkansen would complete the Tokyo-Osaka trip in 2:30 exactly, with a stop at Nagoya, Kyoto and Yokohama in between. From what you said, the European trains take about 3:30 instead on these. May be the infrastructure needs to be improved first then. TGV/ICE should only travel on dedicated high-speed tracks all the way.


It's the lack of direct lines, changes, stops and slow stretches that makes them slower. European HSR is just as fast at Japanese where lines exist. A lot of new lines are opening the next few years, so there will be big improvements soon.

Take Paris to Toulouse, takes about 4:30. It takes just over 2 hours from Paris to Bordeaux which is HSR, but the Bordeaux to Toulouse stretch is not a high speed line so takes the same time despite being somewhat shorter. A new dedicated HSR line is opening in 2024, which will slash times.
The line to Luxembourg which branches off from the 320 km/h TGV line to Strasbourg is mostly limited to 140 km/h, with some parts running as little as 100 km/h. That probably costs 30 minutes compared to a high speed branch. Worth noting that Paris to Strasbourg takes 1:55, a longer distance than Paris to Luxembourg.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:50 am

This measure didn't originate with politicians but with a citizens' assembly :

The Citizens' Convention on Climate (CCC) gathered 150 people, randomly selected but representing the diversity of French society. Its mandate was to formulate a series of concrete measures aimed to achieve at least a 40% reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 (compared to 1990) while preserving social justice.


The original measure was harsher (4 hours train instead of 2,5 hours), and there were plenty other measures :

- banning the building of new airports, and extensions to current airports.
- airlines should fully compensate for CO2 emissions
- tax fuel for GA aircraft more
- a new tax on flights, 30€ for less than 2000Km in Y, 180€ in business, 60€ for more than 2000Km, 400€ in business. Each way. 2400€ for private jets.

None of these have been introduced so far, thanks to politicians being lobbied by airlines...

kiowa wrote:
This is an issue that should be decided by economics rather than politicians.


I totally agree. Estimate the environmental cost of aviation (mostly CO2 but include pollution in general), tax the fuel accordingly, and let the market decide. Same for everything, not just aviation of course.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Bostrom
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:03 am

Aliqiout wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Why is the plane going to still fly????

Even assuming frequency and gauge remain the same lifting a person 25,000 feet into the air requires burning fuel in an amount directly proportional to their weight, this is a waste when it doesn't even offer a benefit of faster transportation.


the difference in fuel burn of a plane coming from a passenger occupying a seat as opposed to a seat flying empty is negligible

if you take an extreme measure such as banning someone someone from flying a certain route you need to have a meaningful impact where you can say that the benefit outweighs the cost on freedom / rights

Assuming perfect efficiency it takes about 8 million joules just for the vertical part of the trip. Each person who isn't on the flight will save that much fossil fuel energy. Every significant achievement is made up of "insignificant" parts.


And if demand is reduced on the route, we might see e.g. see an A319 replaced by a CRJ, which will reduce fuel burn.
 
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downtown273
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:39 am

I agree the TGV network in France is efficient and all that. However, I can see two key downsides to this:

1. It will eventually be to the detriment of those French cities that will lose the connection to Paris. Only being able to sell tickets to connecting passenger will impact the profitability / load factor of the routes; the airlines will respond by adjusting supply (potentially decreasing frequency) and hence reducing the connectivity of the region.

2. Many people (myself included) connect in Paris in separate tickets (i.e. I fly Bordeaux-CDG with AF, and then have a separate ticket on another low-cost to get to my destination). These cases will be considered as a domestic non-transfer flights and therefore be banned under the new rules. Yes, many people will have a single AF ticket with a CDG connection, but we cannot underestimate the size of carriers like EasyJet in Paris into which people connect; many of whom fly to destinations AF doesn't fly to.
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 526
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:16 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
B737MAX wrote:
People should have the choice. Not be forced to use their "high speed" trains while planes are available.
This sounds completely crazy to me.

Progressive transport? Yeah right!
Short haul flights are responsible for a very, very little part of the global pollution in aviation.
It just doesn't make any sense.


It’s about virtue signaling, not carbon reduction.


Thankfully, someone has common sense here!
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
mig17
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

See below the article 36 of the law voted by the french Assemblée Nationale ( https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/ ... itre_IV_49 ):

Article 36

I. – L’article L. 6412‑3 du code des transports est ainsi modifié :

1° Au début de l’article, il est inséré la mention : « I. ‑ » ;

2° L’article est complété par un II ainsi rédigé :

« II. – Sont interdits, sur le fondement des dispositions de l’article 20 du règlement (CE) n° 1008/2008 mentionné au I, les services réguliers de transport aérien public de passagers concernant toutes les liaisons aériennes à l’intérieur du territoire français dont le trajet est également assuré par les voies du réseau ferré national sans correspondance et par plusieurs liaisons quotidiennes de moins de deux heures trente.


II. says in english : Public french domestic flight service will be forbiden where there is a multi-daily rail service without correspondance of less than 2:30.
Meaning that where there is a possible correspondance, french domestic flight service will be allowed.

So private jets are fine, multi-legs in France are fine and all domestic flight to/from CDG hub are fine (even if you yourself are not a connecting pax).
Only flights from Paris Orly to Lyon, Bordeaux and Nantes are concerned. And maybe if the french Conseil d'Etat decide so, Lyon-Marseille and Paris Orly-Rennes.
Last edited by mig17 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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davidjohnson6
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:25 pm

Ignore this message
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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