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Chasensfo
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:46 pm

It makes sense in parts of Europe, but I can only imagine this in 'murikeh, at least on the West Coast.

People always act like high speed rail from SFO to LAX, for example, would be very similar to flight times. Nope, not if the flights are on time, you don't check bags, and you have precheck. Usually less than 20-30 minutes in airports roundtrip added to my travels unless I'm going spotting in the terminal. Last time I flew was from LAX-SJC, the time from leaving the H Hotel nearby to arriving at my door in Santa Clara was about 1 hour and 40 minutes all in. With TSA precheck (when it is open, of course), I usually get dropped off at the airport while my flight is boarding and am on board the plane within 10 minutes of being dropped off. It gives people I travel with anxiety, but I've missed maybe 5 or 6 flights out of hundreds so I'll take those odds LOL. It'll be a long, long time until we have rail here in the Western US which is competitive time wise with flying, and until then, I doubt you'll see any big upticks in users between West Coast cities.

I am still pro-high speed rail, of course, as it is good to have options, but I think most people who complain about airports and think several hour train rides are comparable aren't really travel saavy in my opinion, at least when talking about the United States outside the NYC\WAS\PHL\BOS ect corridors.

I also find it funny how everyone acts like steps like this are such a big help to the environment. I care a lot about the environment, and if you do too, then I'm sure you know that all of aviation in it's entirety makes up a sliver of the annual damage to our ozone layer compared to massive unregulated industry, agriculture, other forms of transportation like personal cars, ect. But aviation is always the target, since I guess it's too hard to go after corporations who don't care. It's cool that France cares enough to make changes, but I hope they don't just target aviation and then let the other major contributors carry on.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:48 pm

Bostrom wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
afgeneral wrote:

the difference in fuel burn of a plane coming from a passenger occupying a seat as opposed to a seat flying empty is negligible

if you take an extreme measure such as banning someone someone from flying a certain route you need to have a meaningful impact where you can say that the benefit outweighs the cost on freedom / rights

Assuming perfect efficiency it takes about 8 million joules just for the vertical part of the trip. Each person who isn't on the flight will save that much fossil fuel energy. Every significant achievement is made up of "insignificant" parts.


And if demand is reduced on the route, we might see e.g. see an A319 replaced by a CRJ, which will reduce fuel burn.


Or better yet, a turboprop.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10869
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:52 pm

Frankly, a pretty small step.

Sadly, many people think that you can pump endless pollution into the environment and nothing bad will happen.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:57 pm

IADCA wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:

That's great - making a law to tell people how and where they can travel. They should let people decide for themselves, in my opinion. A person that wants to travel by plane should be allowed to do so. They probably have a good reason for it - for example, they want to transfer to another flight at CDG.

If the French government wants to cut unnecessary carbon emissions, they should take away the President's private jet.

I think you need to read the article, they are banning short haul flights that don't have a connection. Why fly when you can make to a spot in 2 and a half hours via rail or driving?


I think the point people are making is that the existing flights already almost exclusively serve connections. From my experience on CDG-LYS, that's true. They're banning something that is a rounding error in reality, and the only result is it'll mean the existing flights will be slightly emptier.

I find it hard to believe that AF will fly emptier flights, but every empty seat means the fuel required to lift that many Kg thousands if meters into the air and push that weight through the atmosphere is not burned.
 
Aither
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:07 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Frankly, a pretty small step.

Sadly, many people think that you can pump endless pollution into the environment and nothing bad will happen.


You are assuming, like many, this decision is good for the environment. I think the opposite.

This type of decision is like during a pandemic asking people to stay locked down for their entire life, rather than searching for a vaccine.

The only thing this type of measure does is to reduce the market to develop greener, electric power aircraft. Aviation started flying short sectors, then flew longer sectors.
Less money for innovation will impact all the markets worldwide. So the environmental gain of this are null at best.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4134
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:18 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
I also find it funny how everyone acts like steps like this are such a big help to the environment. I care a lot about the environment, and if you do too, then I'm sure you know that all of aviation in it's entirety makes up a sliver of the annual damage to our ozone layer compared to massive unregulated industry, agriculture, other forms of transportation like personal cars, ect. But aviation is always the target, since I guess it's too hard to go after corporations who don't care. It's cool that France cares enough to make changes, but I hope they don't just target aviation and then let the other major contributors carry on.


With the CO² emission targets set globally and on US / European level there won´t be any industry or sector able to "escape" own reduction targets. We´re not talking about 1 or 2% in total, but about 50% or more. One sector alone will never achieve this. Aviation is an easier target for reductions than e.g. housing, simply because the sheer number of market participants (=airlines, airframer) is drastically lower than in other sectors such as housing or agricultre. Plus the innovation cycles are far longer resp. take longer to implement than e.g. a car - planes with a usetime of 30 years vs. 10 years for a car need to be target earliest possible.

That said I´m quite convinced that there are many more sectors in transport alone (e.g. delivery vans, inland barges, shunting locomotives) where quick savings could be obtain, which, however, haven´t made it on the political agenda so far. But it will, and I think rather sooner than later given the money flowing into these sectors and the political attention nowadays.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4134
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:22 pm

Aither wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Frankly, a pretty small step.

Sadly, many people think that you can pump endless pollution into the environment and nothing bad will happen.


You are assuming, like many, this decision is good for the environment. I think the opposite.

This type of decision is like during a pandemic asking people to stay locked down for their entire life, rather than searching for a vaccine.

The only thing this type of measure does is to reduce the market to develop greener, electric power aircraft. Aviation started flying short sectors, then flew longer sectors.
Less money for innovation will impact all the markets worldwide. So the environmental gain of this are null at best.


One has to be honest: most carriers would be quite happy to get rid of the ultra short-hauls. If they are used for connecting pax anyway and carry a low O&D crowd yields tend to be depressed anyway. If people flying long-haul will now take the train towards the airport to catch a long-haul flight it optimizes the cost base and and the same time releases valuable slots at capacity constrained airports. Now airlines have the opportunity to pinpoint "the bad politicans" whilst removing a revenue problem.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:58 pm

Aither wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Frankly, a pretty small step.

Sadly, many people think that you can pump endless pollution into the environment and nothing bad will happen.


You are assuming, like many, this decision is good for the environment. I think the opposite.

This type of decision is like during a pandemic asking people to stay locked down for their entire life, rather than searching for a vaccine.

The only thing this type of measure does is to reduce the market to develop greener, electric power aircraft. Aviation started flying short sectors, then flew longer sectors.
Less money for innovation will impact all the markets worldwide. So the environmental gain of this are null at best.

Flying short haul seems unprofitable, though that is a guess. Without the essential air service act in the U.S. most short haul flights wouldn't exist near a large airport. Again a pure guess. Aviation is best for longer sectors. Flights under 300 miles probably don't attract high profit.
 
willfinn
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:33 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:30 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
I also find it funny how everyone acts like steps like this are such a big help to the environment. I care a lot about the environment, and if you do too, then I'm sure you know that all of aviation in it's entirety makes up a sliver of the annual damage to our ozone layer compared to massive unregulated industry, agriculture, other forms of transportation like personal cars, ect. But aviation is always the target, since I guess it's too hard to go after corporations who don't care. It's cool that France cares enough to make changes, but I hope they don't just target aviation and then let the other major contributors carry on.


With the CO² emission targets set globally and on US / European level there won´t be any industry or sector able to "escape" own reduction targets. We´re not talking about 1 or 2% in total, but about 50% or more. One sector alone will never achieve this. Aviation is an easier target for reductions than e.g. housing, simply because the sheer number of market participants (=airlines, airframer) is drastically lower than in other sectors such as housing or agricultre. Plus the innovation cycles are far longer resp. take longer to implement than e.g. a car - planes with a usetime of 30 years vs. 10 years for a car need to be target earliest possible.

That said I´m quite convinced that there are many more sectors in transport alone (e.g. delivery vans, inland barges, shunting locomotives) where quick savings could be obtain, which, however, haven´t made it on the political agenda so far. But it will, and I think rather sooner than later given the money flowing into these sectors and the political attention nowadays.


Except that emission targets are not set globally, therefore favouring certain economies over others. This is the reason industries do not ”escape” these targets, but instead relocate outside the EU.

If climate change were a true concern, governments would not tinker with virtue signalling such as this, but would outright ban carbon-emitting transportation.

I see this as a win-win scenario, where AF can claim environmental sensitivity and increase their margins, rail operators can hike fares, politicians can appear as though they have achieved something, environmentalists can save face and enjoy their increased virtue capital. It is then up to the net taxpayer to finance all this...
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14771
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:39 pm

Aither wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Frankly, a pretty small step.

Sadly, many people think that you can pump endless pollution into the environment and nothing bad will happen.


You are assuming, like many, this decision is good for the environment. I think the opposite.

This type of decision is like during a pandemic asking people to stay locked down for their entire life, rather than searching for a vaccine.

The only thing this type of measure does is to reduce the market to develop greener, electric power aircraft. Aviation started flying short sectors, then flew longer sectors.
Less money for innovation will impact all the markets worldwide. So the environmental gain of this are null at best.


The government is forking billions to fund electric and hydrogen aircraft.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:28 pm

willfinn wrote:
Except that emission targets are not set globally, therefore favouring certain economies over others. This is the reason industries do not ”escape” these targets, but instead relocate outside the EU.

1/3rd of the worldwide (fossile) CO2 is emitted in 'developed' countries like the EU, US, Russia, Canada and Japan.
1/3rd is emitted in China and India combined.
The rest of the world shares the remaining 1/3rd - yet very few industries relocate to those places.

Aviation only contributes ~2% of the worldwide CO2 emissions. You know what else does? Texas. Germany. Indonesia.
A 20% efficiency improvement in aviation is equivalent to replacing 20% of a major country's energy supply with renewables. In the case of Texas, that's basically their entire non-renewable electricity supply.
So aviation is a low-hanging fruit since it's not a necessity, unlike heating or peoples' daily commute. You'd have to build a ton of nuclear powerplants to get the same result without limits on flying.
 
ikramerica
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:57 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
Only an issue when the TGV goes on strike.

Or when the train breaks down and they eventually send another one to push yours, but decide to terminate the route at Sud instead of continuing to CDG, forcing you to take a taxi to CDG at your expense or wait for their bus.


Did you really just bring up the possibilities of maintenance issues, cancellations and diversions to show that air travel is better than rail travel?

Just relaying my last TGV experience and why I would never use it to connect to an international flight again, because I was left to the whims of the French train authority with no assistance.
Yes, a quite delicious free “delay snack” was offered, which included a little cup of wine of course, and an envelope to apply for some kind of recompense, but if I was delayed at the airport instead, I wouldn’t be scrambling to figure out what comes next, talking to staff who either knew no English or refused to speak any, trying to hear announcements spoken in far too quick and slurred French for me to understand. Despite 7 years of French I felt like Mr. Bean on holiday dealing with the TGV delays. Luckily a Belgian helped me understand what the announcements were conveying.
International airports have multi-lingual help. SNCF, not so much. Last time I was in Cannes, the automatic ticket machines there only had french as the language. In the rest of Europe as well as much of Asia and the USA, automatic machines have a choice of languages. If I couldn’t read French, would have been confusing.
 
LucaDiMontanari
Posts: 77
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Frankly, a pretty small step.


The problem isn't that France did something. The problem is, that they did something that doesn't help and sell it as a big win. They ban only selling tickets on the shortest P2P sectors which are mostly not sold at all, because everyone sane already takes the train on these routes. While connecting through CDG is still allowed, as banning these would shovel the passengers into the competitors throat.

It looks like the french government asked Air France "What could you get rid off, that let us look like ecologic superheroes, but doesn't hurt you at all?", while the average Jean-Pierre Dupont (lacking the deeper insight on air travel mechanisms) believes, that someone actually saves the climate. So you saying:
bennett123 wrote:
Sadly, many people think that you can pump endless pollution into the environment and nothing bad will happen.

...refers to exact these politicians that issued this new law in France.
 
Bostrom
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:47 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
Or better yet, a turboprop.


That would as you say be even better!
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
Posts: 294
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:34 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
AF can still offer CDG-LYS to transfer pax.... they just can't offer it to non-transfer pax

The question is, will they still offer it with adequate frequency, and with a reasonably sized aircraft? My guess is CDG-LYS doesn't currently have a large proportion of origin/destination passengers, so it probably won't be greatly affected. If anyone has access to data on O/D vs. connecting pax between CDG and LYS, it would be interesting to see.

I'm all in favour of domestic short hops by rail where possible. For example, I would never fly JFK-PHL or YQB-YUL as origin / destination flights, though I have known people who do. Yet, I always flew YQB-YUL if I was connecting to / from another destination at YUL, despite the proximity of the Dorval VIA Rail station to the YUL terminal. The rail service just was not frequent enough or direct (i.e., without a train change in Montréal) to make the air-rail transfer viable. Different story in France, I hope it works for them.
 
rbavfan
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:42 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
Although I'm normally pro-air travel, I'm such a devout environmentalist that I've chosen to lower my personal carbon output by not owning any dogs or cats.

Rail transport is almost as fast door to door as air travel, and generates much less carbon, so encouraging people to switch to high speed rail is a great idea. I wish more countries were as progressive as France is.


So selling Airbus & ATR aircraft to others is OK, just not in France. We are stopping emmisions in our country, but here have a short haul airliner other country. A bit self serving. So will Air France go to 4 pilots & 1:20 FA to passenger ratio as they can't fire anyone. Will the flight crews strike?
 
CometOrbit
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:49 am

London. The fastest I get is 2:31 by train.
Some of these could probably be brought within 2:30 with schedule optimizations only. Others still run on slow tracks part of the way.


In normal (non-Covid) times the regular hourly Eurostar schedule London-Paris is 2h16m (London-Brussels is a bit less).
A little longer with intermediate stops at Lille, Ashford or Ebbsfleet, so some journeys are outside 2.5 hours.

It's worth noting that the French measure is to permit massive taxpayer support to Air France due to Covid.
SNCF is also heavily supported by the state, with massive long-term debts (partly through building the TGV network).
Eurostar (main shareholder SNCF) is also on the brink of collapse because of the drop in international travel to the UK.
These are not normal times.
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 am

Just to give a bit of perspective, there used to be an SXB- CDG route serve by planes.
Came the high speed train, now connecting the city centers in less than 2 hours and the planes simu disappeared. There is no direct flight anymore between Strasbourg and Paris.
Regarding connecting flights in CDG, air France will sell you a ticket from Strasbourg train station using a direct train to CDG. You have to check in your bags at the train station and will get them at your final destination without having to find a place for them in the train nor caring for the transfer.
The new law will apply to a very small number of routes where this process is already happening, it is just accelerating things.
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:01 am

rbavfan wrote:
So selling Airbus & ATR aircraft to others is OK, just not in France. We are stopping emmisions in our country, but here have a short haul airliner other country. A bit self serving. So will Air France go to 4 pilots & 1:20 FA to passenger ratio as they can't fire anyone. Will the flight crews strike?


There are a lot of places where a short haul liner makes a lot of sense. Islands connections, for example...
It just doesn't make sense when you have a high speed, less carbon intensive direct train connection.
It wouldn't make sense to build bridges between the islands of Hawaii or French Polynesia so they could build a train...
By the way, the French are just as happy to sell their train instead of their planes...
 
ewt340
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:14 am

zkojq wrote:
The TGV network is a classic case of "if you build it, they will come". Compared to similar sized countries, the French domestic air travel market is quite small for this reasons.

Whilst I'm not opposed to this, I do generally think that its better to just put a price on carbon emissions and let the free market do its thing (with said carbon tax being spent on planting trees and other carbon mitigation efforts).

For all the naysayers, the new TGVs are really, really comfortable. Between the amount of personal space and legroom you get, the quietness, being able to actually fit into the bathroom, wifi etc it really is no contest between the TGVs and flying - unless you're an avgeek.

P.S. can we please have a high speed line down to Nice? Six hours to Paris isn't very competitive.

Virtual737 wrote:
I'm a huge aviation nut but I wont come up with arguments that put me on the same level as a NIMBY complaining about an airport that was built before my house.

The infrastructure has already been built. Much of the world is working towards emissions targets that were set after that effort was made. No need to take into account something that cannot be undone.


:checkmark:


Paris to Nice by plane is around 1.5 hours. This doesn't include the 1-2 hour requirement for you to arrive at the airport before the flight. This also doesn't include all the de-boarding and the time you need to waste on baggage carousel waiting for your checked-in baggage. Or the time you get from the city to the airport and the time from the airport to the city.

Would 6 hours by train from city centre be that much different from flying CDG-NCE?
 
mig17
Posts: 391
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:48 am

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
AF can still offer CDG-LYS to transfer pax.... they just can't offer it to non-transfer pax

The question is, will they still offer it with adequate frequency, and with a reasonably sized aircraft? My guess is CDG-LYS doesn't currently have a large proportion of origin/destination passengers, so it probably won't be greatly affected. If anyone has access to data on O/D vs. connecting pax between CDG and LYS, it would be interesting to see.

I'm all in favour of domestic short hops by rail where possible. For example, I would never fly JFK-PHL or YQB-YUL as origin / destination flights, though I have known people who do. Yet, I always flew YQB-YUL if I was connecting to / from another destination at YUL, despite the proximity of the Dorval VIA Rail station to the YUL terminal. The rail service just was not frequent enough or direct (i.e., without a train change in Montréal) to make the air-rail transfer viable. Different story in France, I hope it works for them.

Se my post previous page https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1459773&start=50#p22740183

The french law article is targeting the flight line, not the pax:
Flights with no correspondance having an equivalent rail service in less than 2:30 will be forbidden.
But flights with potential correspondance will be maintained wether or not there is a 2:30 rail service. And O&D pax will still be allowed on those flights.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:10 pm

I have flown CDG-BES many times. I also took the train a few times a couple decades ago, once the train was stopped not by a strike, but by a protest on the tracks ! Another time by an accident. Both on the "slow" part of the journey.

Now a longer chunk of track is high speed, I had to go there last minute for a funeral, a last minute plane ticket was too expensive, I took a 1st class TGV ticket instead. Very comfortable seats, power outlet for my laptop...I ended up sleeping the whole trip ! And of course from the parisian street to the train is a couple minutes walk.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:01 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Bordeaux, Nice, Marseille, Pau, Toulouse are all outside the 2.5 hour train ring and the major French cities.

Nope. Paris Montparnasse (downtown Paris) to Bordeaux can be done in as low as 2 hours and 11 minutes, thanks to the new LGV line.
 
Vicenza
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:47 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
Only an issue when the TGV goes on strike.


Nothing to stop and airline, or ATC, going on strike either.
 
aeromoe
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:54 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
Although I'm normally pro-air travel, I'm such a devout environmentalist that I've chosen to lower my personal carbon output by not owning any dogs or cats.


I hope this is an appropriate response: :rotfl:
 
winter
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:54 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
winter wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
Lets take PHL for example. Flights to BWI, ABE, MDT, IPT, LGA, JFK all flights under 100 miles. Do you really need a regional flight to PHL when you can drive there? Most of those airports are connected by rail.
Do you have a reliable source that short flights generate little pollution? Its more of an overall picture, why connect nearby airports when you have drive or connect by rail? Short flights only make sense if the city or town is difficult to access because of bodies or water or mountains.


People generally aren’t flying point to point on these flights to PHL, their connecting on AA to further flights.

And requiring people to [rent cars and] drive the the two hours produces more emissions than the flight.


Driving, yes, you would be right. However Philadelphia Airport has a railway station, what would be the problem with having trains run between the airport and places in the wide surrounding area? That's the way it is done in Europe, it can be done in America as well.

Let's say someone wants to get from Atlantic City to Paris. American Airlines could offer them a ticket Atlantic City - Philadelphia - Paris, where Atlantic City to Philadelphia Airport is operated by NJ Transit. Currently this line terminates at Philadelphia 30th street station, but it could easily be extended to the airport. And Atlantic City is just one example, it could work for a lot more destinations like that.


Wonderful, then do that. But, right now there is no regional train service to the airport, nor is there capacity or infrastructure to accommodate that kind of operation. The PHL airport “train stations” are short platforms on a dead end section of track.

If you want to invest millions/billions to supplant these very short feeder flights from regional airports in PA, NJ, NY then go for it, but right now there’s no alternative to flying or driving to and from them. There’s no ready TGV rail lines where you can just administrative replace flights with trains in the US
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:32 pm

aeromoe wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
Although I'm normally pro-air travel, I'm such a devout environmentalist that I've chosen to lower my personal carbon output by not owning any dogs or cats.


I hope this is an appropriate response: :rotfl:


....and that's the reason we have a climate change crisis.

Academic research shows the energy required to manufacture and distribute the food an average sized dog consumes in a year is greater than the energy used by a large SUV in a year. Large dogs like Great Danes and German Shepherds that eat a lot, and defecate a lot, are much worse for the planet than SUVs are.

If we're serious about fighting climate change, reducing short haul air travel is a good step. However, we'll also need to make other steps, like "strongly encouraging" people to only own one dog, and ensuring that the dog they own is small, like a Chihuahua. Everyone, whether they are an air traveler or a dog lover, needs to give up things they like for the greater good.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1965
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon May 03, 2021 10:44 am

Aliqiout wrote:
IADCA wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
I think you need to read the article, they are banning short haul flights that don't have a connection. Why fly when you can make to a spot in 2 and a half hours via rail or driving?


I think the point people are making is that the existing flights already almost exclusively serve connections. From my experience on CDG-LYS, that's true. They're banning something that is a rounding error in reality, and the only result is it'll mean the existing flights will be slightly emptier.

I find it hard to believe that AF will fly emptier flights, but every empty seat means the fuel required to lift that many Kg thousands if meters into the air and push that weight through the atmosphere is not burned.


It just seems unnecessary to create these kinds of artificial restrictions. If the train is so much better - i.e. cheaper, faster, more convenient then people will choose it. I like the train myself. But I also know that the French TGV can be ridiculously expensive. I was shocked how expensive it was the last time I was in France. So why should they have a monopoly and be able to force people to pay their high prices? Let them compete with other modes of transport and give people the choice.

They say you will still be able to buy a plane ticket if you are connecting. But what about if you want to fly a different airline out of Orly or CDG? Will you then be forced to take the train and pay whatever SNCF decides to charge?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2773
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon May 03, 2021 11:22 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
They say you will still be able to buy a plane ticket if you are connecting. But what about if you want to fly a different airline out of Orly or CDG? Will you then be forced to take the train and pay whatever SNCF decides to charge?

No, you'll also have the option to take the bus, rent a car, or connect at a different airport in Europe.

That said. SNCF isn't that expensive nor that unpredictable. A one-way ticket Paris-Lyon costs up to 83€ one way (2. class) or 137€ (1. class). You can get a ticket today for 25€. Compare AF currently offering CDG-LYS, departure today or tomorrow, for 228€.
 
ddp
Posts: 43
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon May 03, 2021 6:26 pm

So I didn't read the thread, but is this just busy work by the Government of France?
Barley anyone uses this, plus with increasing taxes on jet fuel, fewer people will use these flights moving forward.
Connecting passengers still can do the routes.

This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

What did the French Government actually solve with this?
 
AntonioMartin
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon May 03, 2021 8:28 pm

Like flights in the USA between cities that you can cover by car in 2 hours or less pretty much.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 532
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon May 03, 2021 10:15 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
IADCA wrote:

I think the point people are making is that the existing flights already almost exclusively serve connections. From my experience on CDG-LYS, that's true. They're banning something that is a rounding error in reality, and the only result is it'll mean the existing flights will be slightly emptier.

I find it hard to believe that AF will fly emptier flights, but every empty seat means the fuel required to lift that many Kg thousands if meters into the air and push that weight through the atmosphere is not burned.


It just seems unnecessary to create these kinds of artificial restrictions. If the train is so much better - i.e. cheaper, faster, more convenient then people will choose it. I like the train myself. But I also know that the French TGV can be ridiculously expensive. I was shocked how expensive it was the last time I was in France. So why should they have a monopoly and be able to force people to pay their high prices? Let them compete with other modes of transport and give people the choice.

They say you will still be able to buy a plane ticket if you are connecting. But what about if you want to fly a different airline out of Orly or CDG? Will you then be forced to take the train and pay whatever SNCF decides to charge?

Because it's not about what is faster, cheaper, and more convenient for individual passengers, it's about the common good.

It would be faster and more convenient for me to build a road through my neighbors property so I don't have to drive the long way around. Should the government let me do that?

No you won't be forced to take SNCF, you can drive, take the bus or have someone drive you for whatever the going rate is, or you could buy a plane, get a licence and fly yourself.
 
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eeightning
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue May 04, 2021 7:09 am

That's great - making a law to tell people how and where they can travel. They should let people decide for themselves, in my opinion. A person that wants to travel by plane should be allowed to do so. They probably have a good reason for it - for example, they want to transfer to another flight at CDG.

If the French government wants to cut unnecessary carbon emissions, they should take away the President's private jet.


This is just the early hours of the contortions that regulators will be inflicting on businesses/consumers in lieu of a carbon tax. If it was politically possible for the cost of travel to reflect the unsubsidized cost, the market would sort things out pretty efficiently.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue May 04, 2021 7:25 am

ddp wrote:
So I didn't read the thread, but is this just busy work by the Government of France?
Barley anyone uses this, plus with increasing taxes on jet fuel, fewer people will use these flights moving forward.
Connecting passengers still can do the routes.

This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

What did the French Government actually solve with this?


There are no increasing taxes on jet fuel. That's the problem, the Montreal convention prevents it. So that's a poor man's workaround.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Tue May 04, 2021 11:21 am

It's very possible for a Govt to introduce taxes on domestic flights, see Germany as an example. It's just international flights where it is difficult
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1965
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Sun May 09, 2021 12:37 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
I find it hard to believe that AF will fly emptier flights, but every empty seat means the fuel required to lift that many Kg thousands if meters into the air and push that weight through the atmosphere is not burned.


It just seems unnecessary to create these kinds of artificial restrictions. If the train is so much better - i.e. cheaper, faster, more convenient then people will choose it. I like the train myself. But I also know that the French TGV can be ridiculously expensive. I was shocked how expensive it was the last time I was in France. So why should they have a monopoly and be able to force people to pay their high prices? Let them compete with other modes of transport and give people the choice.

They say you will still be able to buy a plane ticket if you are connecting. But what about if you want to fly a different airline out of Orly or CDG? Will you then be forced to take the train and pay whatever SNCF decides to charge?

Because it's not about what is faster, cheaper, and more convenient for individual passengers, it's about the common good.

It would be faster and more convenient for me to build a road through my neighbors property so I don't have to drive the long way around. Should the government let me do that?

No you won't be forced to take SNCF, you can drive, take the bus or have someone drive you for whatever the going rate is, or you could buy a plane, get a licence and fly yourself.


Oh, I missed the part about being allowed to buy a plane and fly the route myself. That sounds totally reasonable.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Sun May 09, 2021 9:06 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:

It just seems unnecessary to create these kinds of artificial restrictions. If the train is so much better - i.e. cheaper, faster, more convenient then people will choose it. I like the train myself. But I also know that the French TGV can be ridiculously expensive. I was shocked how expensive it was the last time I was in France. So why should they have a monopoly and be able to force people to pay their high prices? Let them compete with other modes of transport and give people the choice.

They say you will still be able to buy a plane ticket if you are connecting. But what about if you want to fly a different airline out of Orly or CDG? Will you then be forced to take the train and pay whatever SNCF decides to charge?

Because it's not about what is faster, cheaper, and more convenient for individual passengers, it's about the common good.

It would be faster and more convenient for me to build a road through my neighbors property so I don't have to drive the long way around. Should the government let me do that?

No you won't be forced to take SNCF, you can drive, take the bus or have someone drive you for whatever the going rate is, or you could buy a plane, get a licence and fly yourself.


Oh, I missed the part about being allowed to buy a plane and fly the route myself. That sounds totally reasonable.

Are you saying it is unreasonable to have to fly yourself, but it is reasonable to continue to contribute to a climatic catastrophe that the democraticly elected government has plegged to address just because you don't like the train or driving?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10815
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Sun May 09, 2021 10:23 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
Are you saying it is unreasonable to have to fly yourself, but it is reasonable to continue to contribute to a climatic catastrophe that the democraticly elected government has plegged to address just because you don't like the train or driving?


Of course, that presupposes that there's an impending "climactic catastrophe", which even the UN Report actually says there isn't, and which about which noted scientists are expressing their discomfort in how the media and the political class has extraordinarily-overstated the extent of the threat, turning the "worst case scenario" model, which is increasingly recognized as inaccurate, into the impending and immediate effect model. Hurricanes, tornadoes, etc., which are constantly being flogged as a "result of climate change" are...well...not. The reckoning over this absurd virtue-signalling destruction of the growth of the West, and the least-fortunate of its citizens, hopefully will come soon.

I grew up when the "population explosion" was also going to be a catastrophe of monumental proportions. Immediately. If we didn't change Everything, the World was on a path to catastrophe!! Interestingly, the proposed "solutions", like now, had a certain Marxist bent to them. And then there was the eco-hysteria of "Silent Spring", which caused DDT to be banned and directly resulted in the deaths of millions of people in malaria-prone areas like Africa. And then there was the Law of the Sea treaty, which was supposed to resolve some other impending doom. It's all Alinsky (a brilliant guy), and it's all a power-grab, folks, pure and simple, an impending catastrophe created to get -- or justify forcing -- people to do things that they wouldn't otherwise be willing to do.

I am ten-thousand-percent behind sensible environmental regulation -- it has made the US and Europe much-healthier places to live than, say, Mexico City or San Salvador. But what is behind the current push has little to do with affecting the environment in a meaningful way, and a lot more to do with control, championed by the folks who think they're going to get to run it, or a least have influence over it.

The don't teach Animal Farm in school anymore, of course, but whenever I hear about the "common good", I remember how "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

From the New York Times about the hysteria of my youth (when we got to, in Fourth Grade, color in drawings of families living in telephone booths because there was no room on Earth). Obviously, the author of "The Population Bomb" had never looked down when passing over The Flyover Area: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/us/t ... osion.html
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6533
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Sun May 09, 2021 11:23 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
Because it's not about what is faster, cheaper, and more convenient for individual passengers, it's about the common good.

It would be faster and more convenient for me to build a road through my neighbors property so I don't have to drive the long way around. Should the government let me do that?

No you won't be forced to take SNCF, you can drive, take the bus or have someone drive you for whatever the going rate is, or you could buy a plane, get a licence and fly yourself.


Oh, I missed the part about being allowed to buy a plane and fly the route myself. That sounds totally reasonable.

Are you saying it is unreasonable to have to fly yourself, but it is reasonable to continue to contribute to a climatic catastrophe that the democraticly elected government has plegged to address just because you don't like the train or driving?



Typed from your smart phone? Plugged into charge? In a climate-controlled house? All of that is much worse for emissions than your leisure trip airplane flight.

We really need to tone down the climate catastrophe rhetoric. But if you really believe an imminent catastrophe is looming, you could give up your car and other modern necessities and have a much bigger impact in preventing impending doom. Everything else is just sound bites
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon May 10, 2021 1:04 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:

Oh, I missed the part about being allowed to buy a plane and fly the route myself. That sounds totally reasonable.

Are you saying it is unreasonable to have to fly yourself, but it is reasonable to continue to contribute to a climatic catastrophe that the democraticly elected government has plegged to address just because you don't like the train or driving?



Typed from your smart phone? Plugged into charge? In a climate-controlled house? All of that is much worse for emissions than your leisure trip airplane flight.

We really need to tone down the climate catastrophe rhetoric. But if you really believe an imminent catastrophe is looming, you could give up your car and other modern necessities and have a much bigger impact in preventing impending doom. Everything else is just sound bites


WELL SAID!!!!

Another serious contributor to climate change is "fast fashion". The average person in their 20s in the United States or Europe buys dozens of garments a year, wears them an average of just 7 times, then throws them out. The environmental impact of a trip to H&M or Zara is worse than the environmental impact of a trip to St. Maarten, but the environmental protesters refuse to acknowledge this.
 
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Aesma
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Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon May 10, 2021 1:10 pm

We need an all of the above strategy. Whataboutisms are just that, a way to not do anything.

As for a catastrophe impending, to each their own. Seeing species disappear, beaches disappear, glaciers disappear, is catastrophic to me, even though it doesn't prevent human life. Humans can live in concrete underground buildings, it's just not the life I want.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10039
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon May 10, 2021 1:33 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:

Oh, I missed the part about being allowed to buy a plane and fly the route myself. That sounds totally reasonable.

Are you saying it is unreasonable to have to fly yourself, but it is reasonable to continue to contribute to a climatic catastrophe that the democraticly elected government has plegged to address just because you don't like the train or driving?



Typed from your smart phone? Plugged into charge? In a climate-controlled house? All of that is much worse for emissions than your leisure trip airplane flight.

We really need to tone down the climate catastrophe rhetoric. But if you really believe an imminent catastrophe is looming, you could give up your car and other modern necessities and have a much bigger impact in preventing impending doom. Everything else is just sound bites


You and WA707atMSP really need to look at CO2 emissions for a year of smartphone use (even in Ohio where 27% of electrical generation was by coal last year) vs. a 1,600 mile trip by plane. According to ICAO, five r/t by plane (in coach) DTW-LHR would exceed my CO2 emissions for natural gas burned to heat my home (Michigan winters), heat water, and dry clothes. I'm guessing a lot of people on this forum have flown more than 37K miles a year. I can cut down on flying a lot easier than I can live with the thermostat set to 50F in the winter.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Mon May 10, 2021 5:08 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
Although I'm normally pro-air travel, I'm such a devout environmentalist that I've chosen to lower my personal carbon output by not owning any dogs or cats.


I hope this is an appropriate response: :rotfl:


....and that's the reason we have a climate change crisis.

Academic research shows the energy required to manufacture and distribute the food an average sized dog consumes in a year is greater than the energy used by a large SUV in a year. Large dogs like Great Danes and German Shepherds that eat a lot, and defecate a lot, are much worse for the planet than SUVs are.

If we're serious about fighting climate change, reducing short haul air travel is a good step. However, we'll also need to make other steps, like "strongly encouraging" people to only own one dog, and ensuring that the dog they own is small, like a Chihuahua. Everyone, whether they are an air traveler or a dog lover, needs to give up things they like for the greater good.


This becomes a bit of a non argument when you consider how dog food is sourced. The calculation is based on the grain (in dry dog food) and meat a dog consumes and looks at the CO2 caused by the production of the raw materials. Meat going into dog food however is largely a by product of meat produced for human consumption. It would have to be disposed off otherwise. The CO2 is largely attributable to the parts of the animal that is eaten by humans. It's perfectly possible to feed a dog on raw food and thereby significantly reduce the CO2 emissions of the dog food production as most of the diet is based on by products (otherwise know as bio waste). Now, show me the SUV that is manufactured out of by-products and we can have a serious conversation.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 472
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon May 10, 2021 5:35 pm

Hey sounds like this conversation has somewhat derailed (pun intended) from the topic at hand.
The fact is the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, there is no doubt some virtue signalling with this legislation, but it is also obvious that this benefits SNCF whilst having very little impact on AF as CDG ops can continue virtually unhindered.

Sure trains are better than planes CO2 wise (especially in France where most electricity is nuclear) and most people would agree trains are a more... humane experience than planes(or should I say airports). But there are many factors to consider, price, distance, geography. In most cases a large proportion of people will take trains when its more convenient and offer matches demand. The market most impacted by this change is probably BOD and even then the route had lost a large proportion of its marketshare back in 2017 when the new high speed line opened. In fact, trains would probably have siphoned even more of the demand if the public-private funded nature of the project didn't cause rail tolls to be inflated leading to an increase in ticket prices.

The impact of this legislation is minimal as the current rail infrastructure can handle the burden. Had this happened in the UK for example.... lets just say we'd have more than a couple of unhappy mayors.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Mon May 10, 2021 5:35 pm

This still feels like a whole lot of emotion over something with very little real impact in either direction. Doesn't AF already codeshare with SNCF? They certainly advertise combined trips https://www.airfrance.fr/FR/en/common/r ... france.htm.

Viability elsewhere is a consideration, but there's a reason Zaragoza doesn't have any service to Madrid or Barcelona anymore, even for connections (and that's a much more inconvenient transfer as there's still no station at Barajas yet)
 
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readytotaxi
Topic Author
Posts: 8113
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Thu May 20, 2021 5:50 pm

A small update, "The EU's top official on climate action has backed the German Greens' call for tax and pricing changes to make rail travel more popular than flying."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57185261

EU Commission Vice-President Frans Timmermans said "I support taxing kerosene like other fuels" and "nobody has to fly 10 or 12 times a year".
 
Noshow
Posts: 2719
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Thu May 20, 2021 6:23 pm

How does he know how many times people need to travel?
 
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aerorobnz
Posts: 8435
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Thu May 20, 2021 9:53 pm

The fact that the market is already pretty saturated in terms of rail adoption seems that the French people have already chosen it themselves. without government mandate. With the exception for transits, it's still acceptable - and anyone else can still fly via elsewhere if they choose. Having said that, if only open to transits it may jeopardise the remaining flights from operating if unable to fill the gaps with point to point,

Noshow wrote:
How does he know how many times people need to travel?

exactly, each person is different in their necessity ( Big brother will decide everything, all the while, usually granting a limited exception for themselves.). Let the people who want to make the change make the change, and leave the rest of us alone to choose what we think is best for us. I do not lose any sleep hopping on an aeroplane over a train, or driving a petrol powered car. It should be my right to choose what suits me, and my life requirements. One size certainly does not fit all, nor should it - the best thing is to offer as many options as possible.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14771
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Fri May 21, 2021 5:33 am

Well that's exactly the beauty of a tax. Fly as much as you want, you will be paying to alleviate the consequences.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2719
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights where same journey could be made by train in under 2,5 hours

Fri May 21, 2021 6:35 am

So the rich continue to fly and the poor get to feel the woke tax?
How about ATC gets better coordinated by those same politicians? They could save 15 percent fuel right away without harassing the travelling public.
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