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Antarius
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:01 pm

zeke wrote:
Antarius wrote:
And this is the only crash that's ever happened?


Of course it isn’t, can you cite an airliner accident in recent history where the NTSB has been unable to determine the cause by using their existing methods and techniques?


The Lion Air crash. Of course they figured it out afterwards, but the "human error" argument would have been likely discarded faster.

Why do you think people do video calls? Context isn't immediately apparent sight unseen.
Militant Centrist
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TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:07 pm

Buses have cameras on their drivers. So do trains. Why do pilots think they are exempt? They don't own the airplane. The airline/lessor does.
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Record

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:08 pm

Antarius wrote:
Terrible argument. That's like saying "since more people die in Chicago due to guns, why bother with a CVR or FDR". The death toll without CVR/FDR will still be lower than gun violence.


It is the sort of calculation that an actuary would do on a daily basis, where is the finite public purse best spent, those funds need to be directed to where it is the best outcome for society.

I’m not advocating removal or FDR or CVR, I am asking for the business case for why cameras should be installed. It has a defined cost, it has to have a defined measurable benefit. I asked a simple question, name an accident where the NTSB investigated an airliner in recent history where they have not been able to detriment the cause. I am not aware of any, which suggests existing procedures and techniques are adequate.

Look at the sort of moving map with terrain that you find on most new light aircraft these days, and then the antiquated displays even on new airliners. Just because something is nice to have, does not mean it is have to have, or that it actually has a measurable safety improvement.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:09 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.

.


That is exactly the issue. Like CVR recordings that leak out in a lot of places. The day a video recorder is installed in my cockpit, I will start carrying a package of chewing gum in my flightbag.
But I will probably be long retired when/if this happens.


Oh really? Interfering with aircraft systems is a federal crime.
 
Antarius
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:12 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Buses have cameras on their drivers. So do trains. Why do pilots think they are exempt? They don't own the airplane. The airline/lessor does.


On a.net, flying an aircraft somehow makes some people think they can run an airline.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
Antarius
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Record

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:14 pm

zeke wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Terrible argument. That's like saying "since more people die in Chicago due to guns, why bother with a CVR or FDR". The death toll without CVR/FDR will still be lower than gun violence.


It is the sort of calculation that an actuary would do on a daily basis, where is the finite public purse best spent, those funds need to be directed to where it is the best outcome for society.

I’m not advocating removal or FDR or CVR, I am asking for the business case for why cameras should be installed. It has a defined cost, it has to have a defined measurable benefit. I asked a simple question, name an accident where the NTSB investigated an airliner in recent history where they have not been able to detriment the cause. I am not aware of any, which suggests existing procedures and techniques are adequate.

Look at the sort of moving map with terrain that you find on most new light aircraft these days, and then the antiquated displays even on new airliners. Just because something is nice to have, does not mean it is have to have, or that it actually has a measurable safety improvement.


The NTSB is far more qualified than a.net, you and I to make that determination.

This isn't an a.net "let's restart the 757" thread. It's got a start from an article with an opinion of a qualified organization.

As for the answer, it's been given. Just in a different post.
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Let's all just use some common sense
 
planecane
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:24 pm

DH106 wrote:
Well, if you look at how many CVR audios are now in the public domain, the concerns are understandable.
It'd be a goon's wet dream to have cockpit crash vid. Some sick people around.

Wasn't it standard to release the audio until a law or regulation change in the early 1990s?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:25 pm

The NTSB is biased in this regard because as investigators of course they would love every little extra bit of information they can get. It makes their jobs easier.

The NTSB provides recommendations, it is up to the FAA and other parties to decide to implement.

Any investigator would want more info. But, is this info worth the cost to obtain?

I honestly think it would not provide much helpful info. Watch a few YouTube cockpit videos, if the exposure picks up the cockpit, the outside is completely washed out. If the exposure captures the outside, the inside is completely dark. The cockpit displays are usually not visible very well in either setting, as they are just scanning or flickering lines. All the extra context the cameras will pick up are arm movements which are likely already known because just about every switch, lever, and knob reports commands back to the FDR. So we already know what the pilots were doing, what they were commanding and what the instruments were reporting. the cameras won’t show us outside, and the cameras probably won’t pick up what any of the displays and gauges are reading. The only thing we will gain is the pilot picking his nose one last time before an accident.
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Record

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:32 pm

Antarius wrote:

The NTSB is far more qualified than a.net, you and I to make that determination.

This isn't an a.net "let's restart the 757" thread. It's got a start from an article with an opinion of a qualified organization.

As for the answer, it's been given. Just in a different post.


Sorry, please do not be so obtuse, where is the answer ?

That’s why I asked for the NTSB business case, nothing has been presented to show the cost benefit. Just because something is nice to have, does not mean it represents a genuine need.

Any such business case would look at the actual feasibility of installing such technology, civil airliners cockpits are not an easy environment to actually film in, they are designed to the two people to be seated in front of the various displays and panels. I doubt a single camera could be all that useful, it may take half a dozen. The best place would be a head mounted camera. Then you need to find a way to install them so they work even in the most degraded state of the aircraft in all lighting conditions, with smoke, and the data can survive the most horrible crash, and take a significant amount of time to recover. After doing all that, what data is actually collected that is isn’t already been collected.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:48 pm

planecane wrote:
DH106 wrote:
Well, if you look at how many CVR audios are now in the public domain, the concerns are understandable.
It'd be a goon's wet dream to have cockpit crash vid. Some sick people around.

Wasn't it standard to release the audio until a law or regulation change in the early 1990s?


ALPA threw a fit when some embarrassing conversation was played after the DFW crash where the Delta crew forgot to set the flaps for takeoff.

The truth of the matter is that any airline could install cameras tomorrow so long as the equipment and installation procedure was approved by the FAA. If pilots want to strike over making our skies safer they certainly won't get much support from the public.
 
hayzel777
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Record

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:18 am

zeke wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
They're just using it as an example.


From that quote, a camera in the cockpit would have had zero safety improvement with those Max crashes, it took the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation to uncover the real reason for that design feature to be certified.

The NTSB has failed to produce a business case where cameras would improve safety. Cameras don’t come at zero cost, someone has to design them, certify them, install them, maintain them.

To put this in perspective, how many people have died from shootings in one city say Chicago in the past 5 years, and how many have died airliner accidents ? Does the high coverage of CCTV in Chicago actually improve gun safety ? Are fewer people being shot ? Does CCTV actually stop guns from getting into peoples hands ?

Antarius wrote:
And this is the only crash that's ever happened?


Of course it isn’t, can you cite an airliner accident in recent history where the NTSB has been unable to determine the cause by using their existing methods and techniques?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was just saying that is what they said.

I used to be an FO at a company that used FOQA data to "judge" our landings. The captain upgrade was partly dependent on our FOQA data, mainly the G meter readings, to determine our flying skills. It was awful. They only recently got rid of this evaluation after the pilots nearly went on strike. People that have never worked for the plethora of companies that do the same thing or that have never flown the line have no idea how lucky they are. Imagine being called in because the camera caught you missing a step in the flow or failing to make a callout etc. Knowing how some of these carriers operate out there, they would happily do it.
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ALPA threw a fit when some embarrassing conversation was played after the DFW crash where the Delta crew forgot to set the flaps for takeoff.


So please explain what the safety benefit in this example you cited if the existing procedures are able to make the same determination. What would a camera provide ?

It’s an interesting case you raised, DL1141 is the reason why CVRs are not longer released. The recordings were used in ways that were not intended to be used. It will forever be the reason why cameras will not get installed in aircraft. There was trust established between airlines, manufactures, crew, regulator, and the investigators for their use, and that trust is forever broken.

TTailedTiger wrote:
The truth of the matter is that any airline could install cameras tomorrow so long as the equipment and installation procedure was approved by the FAA.


That is simply not true, it would literally take years to design, test, certify, and install a crash proof camera system into an airliner.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:03 am

zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ALPA threw a fit when some embarrassing conversation was played after the DFW crash where the Delta crew forgot to set the flaps for takeoff.


So please explain what the safety benefit in this example you cited if the existing procedures are able to make the same determination. What would a camera provide ?

It’s an interesting case you raised, DL1141 is the reason why CVRs are not longer released. The recordings were used in ways that were not intended to be used. It will forever be the reason why cameras will not get installed in aircraft. There was trust established between airlines, manufactures, crew, regulator, and the investigators for their use, and that trust is forever broken.

TTailedTiger wrote:
The truth of the matter is that any airline could install cameras tomorrow so long as the equipment and installation procedure was approved by the FAA.


That is simply not true, it would literally take years to design, test, certify, and install a crash proof camera system into an airliner.


You must have missed the part of my post about FAA approval. Pilots are not gods and do not dictate policy to management. You also don't dictate policy to the FAA. If the FAA makes flight deck cameras mandatory on transport category planes then there's nothing you can do about it. You seem to think pilots are better than others. That isn't true. If a McDonald's cashier or bank teller gets caught on camera stealing money should they not lose their job? Why shouldn't a pilot lose their job if they are caught on camera pushing around the FO or violating regulations?
 
LTEN11
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:11 am

zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ALPA threw a fit when some embarrassing conversation was played after the DFW crash where the Delta crew forgot to set the flaps for takeoff.


So please explain what the safety benefit in this example you cited if the existing procedures are able to make the same determination. What would a camera provide ?

It’s an interesting case you raised, DL1141 is the reason why CVRs are not longer released. The recordings were used in ways that were not intended to be used. It will forever be the reason why cameras will not get installed in aircraft. There was trust established between airlines, manufactures, crew, regulator, and the investigators for their use, and that trust is forever broken.

TTailedTiger wrote:
The truth of the matter is that any airline could install cameras tomorrow so long as the equipment and installation procedure was approved by the FAA.


That is simply not true, it would literally take years to design, test, certify, and install a crash proof camera system into an airliner.


Why do does the whole system need to be crash proof ? Surely just the ultimate recording and storing device does, just as in the FDR, CVR.

Going back to your example of the Atlas crash, sure the FDR/CVR gave up the evidence to determine what happened, but surely a video recording system would've helped determine the cause much sooner. Analysis of the pilot actions would've been a lot easier. You also said that nothing happened to the type involved after the investigation, but surely a quicker determination of pilot error would have cleared the airframe involved much quicker. The same goes for the reverse, if the pilots had done nothing wrong and it was clear that there were sudden uncommand actions by the airframe, it could've determined that there problems with the aircraft that could've warranted further action, such as a grounding. Whilst the Lion Air and Ethiopian crashes are well documented as to why they happened, video evidence of what happened in the cockpit would've helped explain exactly what the crew encountered and what actions they took and these would've been available much quicker than doing it all through the data analysis required for the FDR. A video recording would speed up investigations immensely, especially for pilot error accidents.

As for crew protections from prosecution in foreign countries, why ? If the crew was negligent in their actions why should they be offered special protection from prosecution in a foreign country ? Do you expect special treatment if you're driving a car in another country and cause an accident ? Should a bus driver running a red light and causing an accident be more susceptible to prosecution, than an airline pilot trying to land below mins in fog and crashing ? As long as you've done everything that you're suppose too, a video of cockpit actions is going to clear you a lot quicker than relying on the FDR/CVR. A pilot can say one thing in the cockpit, but actually do something else, mistakes happen, just as they do in every other walk of life.
 
airtran737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:23 am

I am glad that ALPA has come out swinging against this. I love the armchair QB's here who aren't airline pilots. Who has never witnessed how airline management acts when they decide to focus on one individual and to try to make his or her life hell. They will undoubtedly try to use the video for no good. It's sort of like how the FDR cannot be pulled for an arbitrary reason, but if the engine manufacturer sends diagnostics to the company they will use it against the pilots. Airline management is not to be trusted anywhere. Put a camera up on my flight deck and I know where my hat or the window shade will be.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ALPA threw a fit when some embarrassing conversation was played after the DFW crash where the Delta crew forgot to set the flaps for takeoff.


So please explain what the safety benefit in this example you cited if the existing procedures are able to make the same determination. What would a camera provide ?

It’s an interesting case you raised, DL1141 is the reason why CVRs are not longer released. The recordings were used in ways that were not intended to be used. It will forever be the reason why cameras will not get installed in aircraft. There was trust established between airlines, manufactures, crew, regulator, and the investigators for their use, and that trust is forever broken.

TTailedTiger wrote:
The truth of the matter is that any airline could install cameras tomorrow so long as the equipment and installation procedure was approved by the FAA.


That is simply not true, it would literally take years to design, test, certify, and install a crash proof camera system into an airliner.


You must have missed the part of my post about FAA approval. Pilots are not gods and do not dictate policy to management. You also don't dictate policy to the FAA. If the FAA makes flight deck cameras mandatory on transport category planes then there's nothing you can do about it. You seem to think pilots are better than others. That isn't true. If a McDonald's cashier or bank teller gets caught on camera stealing money should they not lose their job? Why shouldn't a pilot lose their job if they are caught on camera pushing around the FO or violating regulations?


You clearly have no understanding of how aviation regulation works. It took a commission of pilots, OEM and FAA on how to replace engineers. No major changes occur in aviation without pilot inputs and agreement. OEMs look to the pilots, the companies need to reach agreements with the unions. The appearance of a Sullenberger matters. Sorry, but wearing wings matters.
 
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Chasensfo
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:25 am

Yeah...how about no...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:28 am

As for crew protections from prosecution in foreign countries, why ? If the crew was negligent in their actions why should they be offered special protection from prosecution in a foreign country ?


Because prosecution has no place in safety investigations. Start putting crews in jail and your safety program, dependent on everyone’s cooperation goes out the window. As has been stated, using CVR and FOQA data has discipline tools doesn’t make safety better, it drives people out and drives employees underground.
 
LTEN11
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:33 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As for crew protections from prosecution in foreign countries, why ? If the crew was negligent in their actions why should they be offered special protection from prosecution in a foreign country ?


Because prosecution has no place in safety investigations. Start putting crews in jail and your safety program, dependent on everyone’s cooperation goes out the window. As has been stated, using CVR and FOQA data has discipline tools doesn’t make safety better, it drives people out and drives employees underground.


So are you saying that at the conclusion of an investigation and pilot error is determined, such as landing in fog below mins and crashing, that the pilot should get off without any legal ramification ? Seriously ?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:33 am

airtran737 wrote:
I am glad that ALPA has come out swinging against this. I love the armchair QB's here who aren't airline pilots. Who has never witnessed how airline management acts when they decide to focus on one individual and to try to make his or her life hell. They will undoubtedly try to use the video for no good. It's sort of like how the FDR cannot be pulled for an arbitrary reason, but if the engine manufacturer sends diagnostics to the company they will use it against the pilots. Airline management is not to be trusted anywhere. Put a camera up on my flight deck and I know where my hat or the window shade will be.


Why would you want to stick around and work for an airline like that?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:36 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
zeke wrote:

So please explain what the safety benefit in this example you cited if the existing procedures are able to make the same determination. What would a camera provide ?

It’s an interesting case you raised, DL1141 is the reason why CVRs are not longer released. The recordings were used in ways that were not intended to be used. It will forever be the reason why cameras will not get installed in aircraft. There was trust established between airlines, manufactures, crew, regulator, and the investigators for their use, and that trust is forever broken.



That is simply not true, it would literally take years to design, test, certify, and install a crash proof camera system into an airliner.


You must have missed the part of my post about FAA approval. Pilots are not gods and do not dictate policy to management. You also don't dictate policy to the FAA. If the FAA makes flight deck cameras mandatory on transport category planes then there's nothing you can do about it. You seem to think pilots are better than others. That isn't true. If a McDonald's cashier or bank teller gets caught on camera stealing money should they not lose their job? Why shouldn't a pilot lose their job if they are caught on camera pushing around the FO or violating regulations?


You clearly have no understanding of how aviation regulation works. It took a commission of pilots, OEM and FAA on how to replace engineers. No major changes occur in aviation without pilot inputs and agreement. OEMs look to the pilots, the companies need to reach agreements with the unions. The appearance of a Sullenberger matters. Sorry, but wearing wings matters.


Input matters, sure. But are you telling me that if enough pilots petitioned the FAA to allow pilots to drink during cruise they'd let them have their way? Or maybe make certificatea irrevocable? How about getting rid of the mandatory retirement age? Why haven't you done this?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:54 am

LTEN11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
As for crew protections from prosecution in foreign countries, why ? If the crew was negligent in their actions why should they be offered special protection from prosecution in a foreign country ?


Because prosecution has no place in safety investigations. Start putting crews in jail and your safety program, dependent on everyone’s cooperation goes out the window. As has been stated, using CVR and FOQA data has discipline tools doesn’t make safety better, it drives people out and drives employees underground.


So are you saying that at the conclusion of an investigation and pilot error is determined, such as landing in fog below mins and crashing, that the pilot should get off without any legal ramification ? Seriously ?


Yes, seriously and we haven’t done that very often. Goes to criminal intent—the crew didn’t come to work trying to commit murder-suicide. No criminal intent, no case. Now, if they were to be shown reckless endangerment, which requires the pilots to willing to kill themselves, maybe. Why did they fly the approach below mins, did they know the weather, was the company complicit ie did crews get rewarded for bad behavior?

Driver gets into 700hp car, races it and loses control killing bystanders—yes, reckless endangerment. Crew gets hour old weather that’s legal, crashes, hard to show they intended to kill themselves.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:56 am

airtran737 wrote:
I am glad that ALPA has come out swinging against this. I love the armchair QB's here who aren't airline pilots. Who has never witnessed how airline management acts when they decide to focus on one individual and to try to make his or her life hell. They will undoubtedly try to use the video for no good. It's sort of like how the FDR cannot be pulled for an arbitrary reason, but if the engine manufacturer sends diagnostics to the company they will use it against the pilots. Airline management is not to be trusted anywhere. Put a camera up on my flight deck and I know where my hat or the window shade will be.

Companies, if they want, don't need a camera for this.

Many organizations, even at offices have cameras. At the airport, you have cameras everywhere. What makes pilots a special case where cameras are a no go zone?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:57 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

You must have missed the part of my post about FAA approval. Pilots are not gods and do not dictate policy to management. You also don't dictate policy to the FAA. If the FAA makes flight deck cameras mandatory on transport category planes then there's nothing you can do about it. You seem to think pilots are better than others. That isn't true. If a McDonald's cashier or bank teller gets caught on camera stealing money should they not lose their job? Why shouldn't a pilot lose their job if they are caught on camera pushing around the FO or violating regulations?


You clearly have no understanding of how aviation regulation works. It took a commission of pilots, OEM and FAA on how to replace engineers. No major changes occur in aviation without pilot inputs and agreement. OEMs look to the pilots, the companies need to reach agreements with the unions. The appearance of a Sullenberger matters. Sorry, but wearing wings matters.


Input matters, sure. But are you telling me that if enough pilots petitioned the FAA to allow pilots to drink during cruise they'd let them have their way? Or maybe make certificatea irrevocable? How about getting rid of the mandatory retirement age? Why haven't you done this?


Take your silly arguments elsewhere, you know I didn’t say that and no pilot group would propose such idiocies.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:07 am

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
I am glad that ALPA has come out swinging against this. I love the armchair QB's here who aren't airline pilots. Who has never witnessed how airline management acts when they decide to focus on one individual and to try to make his or her life hell. They will undoubtedly try to use the video for no good. It's sort of like how the FDR cannot be pulled for an arbitrary reason, but if the engine manufacturer sends diagnostics to the company they will use it against the pilots. Airline management is not to be trusted anywhere. Put a camera up on my flight deck and I know where my hat or the window shade will be.

Companies, if they want, don't need a camera for this.

Many organizations, even at offices have cameras. At the airport, you have cameras everywhere. What makes pilots a special case where cameras are a no go zone?


Hospitals as well. I can't really think of many places outside of top security facilities that don't. Do pilots think they deserve more consideration than heart surgeons?
 
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ojjunior
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:14 am

Why are pilots so against it?
Anything to hide?
Trains, buses, ships, subways even cabs have cameras on it pretty much anywhere in the world for years and no one complains.
It is about safety gentlemen, sorry if this offends your valuable privacy, you're not better than any other worker subject to this.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
I am glad that ALPA has come out swinging against this. I love the armchair QB's here who aren't airline pilots. Who has never witnessed how airline management acts when they decide to focus on one individual and to try to make his or her life hell. They will undoubtedly try to use the video for no good. It's sort of like how the FDR cannot be pulled for an arbitrary reason, but if the engine manufacturer sends diagnostics to the company they will use it against the pilots. Airline management is not to be trusted anywhere. Put a camera up on my flight deck and I know where my hat or the window shade will be.

Companies, if they want, don't need a camera for this.

Many organizations, even at offices have cameras. At the airport, you have cameras everywhere. What makes pilots a special case where cameras are a no go zone?


Hospitals as well. I can't really think of many places outside of top security facilities that don't. Do pilots think they deserve more consideration than heart surgeons?
In as much as I love aviation, there are a few things that really disturb me. Some of it is the entitled nature of pilots and their unions.

Why they need to be consulted on this, an aspect that would weed out bad behavior and make investigations easier is beyond me.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:28 am

Polot wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
I'm shocked the NTSB can make these demands with a straight face.

Why? They have been calling for them for a long time and are completely independent of the FAA or any pilot union. The people at the NTSB couldn’t care less if the pilots don’t want them.


They also told it was likely that the 737 rudder hard overs were pilot error. Until they weren't.

Let them bray.
 
LTEN11
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:32 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Because prosecution has no place in safety investigations. Start putting crews in jail and your safety program, dependent on everyone’s cooperation goes out the window. As has been stated, using CVR and FOQA data has discipline tools doesn’t make safety better, it drives people out and drives employees underground.


So are you saying that at the conclusion of an investigation and pilot error is determined, such as landing in fog below mins and crashing, that the pilot should get off without any legal ramification ? Seriously ?


Yes, seriously and we haven’t done that very often. Goes to criminal intent—the crew didn’t come to work trying to commit murder-suicide. No criminal intent, no case. Now, if they were to be shown reckless endangerment, which requires the pilots to willing to kill themselves, maybe. Why did they fly the approach below mins, did they know the weather, was the company complicit ie did crews get rewarded for bad behavior?

Driver gets into 700hp car, races it and loses control killing bystanders—yes, reckless endangerment. Crew gets hour old weather that’s legal, crashes, hard to show they intended to kill themselves.


I can understand the point you're trying to make, but I still don't think that crew should be exempt from prosecution for pilot error crashes, there are very few instances where anybody deliberately goes out to intentionally hurt someone, even with your car racer. But getting back to the original topic, a cockpit video of the incident is going to go a lot further in clearing, or blaming someone, than the FDR/CVR. How many times do you hear of pilots believing they heard something, or send something themselves, when there is no such evidence on the CVR. The same can be said for the pilots actual actions, they thought they applied reverse thrust, but the FDR clearly showed they didn't, a video will confirm that, without even having to read out the FDR.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 186
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:32 am

SEA wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
I'm shocked the NTSB can make these demands with a straight face.


They are recommendations. Why do you find this to be a joke?


Because the NTSB under Hall and Sumwalt are the very models of regulatory capture, living under some delusion of impartiality.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:40 am

I think the first order of business is real-time streaming of FDR and CVR data. 70% of the globe is covered by water and crash after crash has been left uninvestigatable because of a lack of access to the FDR and CVR. We still don't know what happened to MS804 or MH370.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 186
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:44 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

You must have missed the part of my post about FAA approval. Pilots are not gods and do not dictate policy to management. You also don't dictate policy to the FAA. If the FAA makes flight deck cameras mandatory on transport category planes then there's nothing you can do about it. You seem to think pilots are better than others. That isn't true. If a McDonald's cashier or bank teller gets caught on camera stealing money should they not lose their job? Why shouldn't a pilot lose their job if they are caught on camera pushing around the FO or violating regulations?


If you don't think that FAA policy is made with a variety of stake holder input, then you're not exactly an authoritative voice in this matter.

Do you think, for example, the absence of video is what prevents the hypothetical you suggest?
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 254
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:46 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
The NTSB is biased in this regard because as investigators of course they would love every little extra bit of information they can get. It makes their jobs easier.

The NTSB provides recommendations, it is up to the FAA and other parties to decide to implement.

Any investigator would want more info. But, is this info worth the cost to obtain?

I honestly think it would not provide much helpful info. Watch a few YouTube cockpit videos, if the exposure picks up the cockpit, the outside is completely washed out. If the exposure captures the outside, the inside is completely dark. The cockpit displays are usually not visible very well in either setting, as they are just scanning or flickering lines. All the extra context the cameras will pick up are arm movements which are likely already known because just about every switch, lever, and knob reports commands back to the FDR. So we already know what the pilots were doing, what they were commanding and what the instruments were reporting. the cameras won’t show us outside, and the cameras probably won’t pick up what any of the displays and gauges are reading. The only thing we will gain is the pilot picking his nose one last time before an accident.

Anything. Anything that makes an investigators job easier is always welcome. The NTSB is just not an investigator, they and other investigators find out problems and this is what is then used to better aviation/ It might be pilot error, it might be a design flaw, it might be a combination of different actors. The end result is to try and make aviation a better, safer industry.

In this same manner, forensic investigators have leveraged tech to make their work easier and less prone to error.

If you cannot leverage technology to come up with simpler solutions to complex problems, then of what use is technology?

Sometimes, I feel like we argue just for the sake of it.
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 186
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:52 am

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
In as much as I love aviation, there are a few things that really disturb me. Some of it is the entitled nature of pilots and their unions.

Why they need to be consulted on this, an aspect that would weed out bad behavior and make investigations easier is beyond me.


Is there an epidemic of bad behavior? US airlines are immensely safe precisely because of the touch labor of the crews and maintenance troops.

ALPA has been a consistent prime driving force for aviation safety since 1931.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:53 am

acecrackshot wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

You must have missed the part of my post about FAA approval. Pilots are not gods and do not dictate policy to management. You also don't dictate policy to the FAA. If the FAA makes flight deck cameras mandatory on transport category planes then there's nothing you can do about it. You seem to think pilots are better than others. That isn't true. If a McDonald's cashier or bank teller gets caught on camera stealing money should they not lose their job? Why shouldn't a pilot lose their job if they are caught on camera pushing around the FO or violating regulations?


If you don't think that FAA policy is made with a variety of stake holder input, then you're not exactly an authoritative voice in this matter.

Do you think, for example, the absence of video is what prevents the hypothetical you suggest?


No, what I'm saying is that if you had as much weight as you thought did, the FAA would never take any disciplinary against pilots. That isn't the case.

I'll ask the question again. Do you believe pilots are better than bank employees, fast food workers, store clerks, cops, judges, surgeons, etc? Why are you exempt from cameras?
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 254
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:55 am

acecrackshot wrote:
Polot wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
I'm shocked the NTSB can make these demands with a straight face.

Why? They have been calling for them for a long time and are completely independent of the FAA or any pilot union. The people at the NTSB couldn’t care less if the pilots don’t want them.


They also told it was likely that the 737 rudder hard overs were pilot error. Until they weren't.

Let them bray.
This is not just a problem with the NTSB. Same thing happened with the 767 elevator issues that were later fixed.

This was an OEM issue as well, and Boeing has a culture of first and foremost blaming pilots and offering opinions to the same effect. However, tools to analyze get better, with every accident, investigators get a better understanding, apply critical thinking and eventually come to a conclusion that a recurring problem is a manufacturing issue. This is not something you can always determine without repetition, and this is the nature of any investigation.
I know this because it is the same thought process that goes into forensic investigations to determine whether one crime is an isolated event or it is a pattern of linked events.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

No, what I'm saying is that if you had as much weight as you thought did, the FAA would never take any disciplinary against pilots. That isn't the case.

I'll ask the question again. Do you believe pilots are better than bank employees, fast food workers, store clerks, cops, judges, surgeons, etc? Why are you exempt from cameras?


I love how every conversation about cameras is about the pilots.

Does the NTSB or the FAA record the consistent minutiae of their work place and provide it on demand? How about our C suite betters?

CVRs were sold on the promise their use was safety only, as was FOQA data. Consistently, that trust has been abused.

Indeed, if we are going to explore the scenario you present, pilots are the only ones who truly have skin in the game to the quality of their product or service that you present.

Finally, for the cost involved, what percentage of accidents within the US currently unsolved, with the massive data currently being collected, would now be solved.

Because, the NTSB is asking for an actual economic good from an industry that is not exactly a model of profitability currently, and likely faces significant other challenges in an inflationary, anti-carbon, continuing COVID impacted economy. So, you're so convinced...show me the numbers.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:03 am

acecrackshot wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
In as much as I love aviation, there are a few things that really disturb me. Some of it is the entitled nature of pilots and their unions.

Why they need to be consulted on this, an aspect that would weed out bad behavior and make investigations easier is beyond me.


Is there an epidemic of bad behavior? US airlines are immensely safe precisely because of the touch labor of the crews and maintenance troops.

ALPA has been a consistent prime driving force for aviation safety since 1931.
US airlines are where they are because they have learnt from a lot of mistakes made prior and because for a long time it was the country that set the tone for aviation standards everywhere.

It was the biggest aviation market, and still is, thus they had a lot of data points to rely on at a time when a lot of other nations were not even thinking of such things. This does not mean that just because aviation is safe, it cannot get better or just because NTSB does a good job, their jobs should not be easier.

There are cameras on buses in the developed world, yet the accident ratios are far better than in the third world. Did drivers need this? They would argue no. Pilots ought to accept that they might fight this for some time, but eventually they will be just like anyone else where the camera is an effective tool to better the work environment. The cockpit is not some confession box where privacy is to be observed no matter what.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14974
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:08 am

acecrackshot wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

No, what I'm saying is that if you had as much weight as you thought did, the FAA would never take any disciplinary against pilots. That isn't the case.

I'll ask the question again. Do you believe pilots are better than bank employees, fast food workers, store clerks, cops, judges, surgeons, etc? Why are you exempt from cameras?


I love how every conversation about cameras is about the pilots.

Does the NTSB or the FAA record the consistent minutiae of their work place and provide it on demand? How about our C suite betters?

CVRs were sold on the promise their use was safety only, as was FOQA data. Consistently, that trust has been abused.

Indeed, if we are going to explore the scenario you present, pilots are the only ones who truly have skin in the game to the quality of their product or service that you present.

Finally, for the cost involved, what percentage of accidents within the US currently unsolved, with the massive data currently being collected, would now be solved.

Because, the NTSB is asking for an actual economic good from an industry that is not exactly a model of profitability currently, and likely faces significant other challenges in an inflationary, anti-carbon, continuing COVID impacted economy. So, you're so convinced...show me the numbers.


Does FAA have the authority to promulgate a regulation that says that no video shall be used in an action against a pilot's certificate and that no certificate holder shall use video to take action against an employee? I think it probably does, and that sort of regulation would seemingly take care of the parade of horribles you envision.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:09 am

acecrackshot wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

No, what I'm saying is that if you had as much weight as you thought did, the FAA would never take any disciplinary against pilots. That isn't the case.

I'll ask the question again. Do you believe pilots are better than bank employees, fast food workers, store clerks, cops, judges, surgeons, etc? Why are you exempt from cameras?


I love how every conversation about cameras is about the pilots.

Does the NTSB or the FAA record the consistent minutiae of their work place and provide it on demand? How about our C suite betters?

CVRs were sold on the promise their use was safety only, as was FOQA data. Consistently, that trust has been abused.

Indeed, if we are going to explore the scenario you present, pilots are the only ones who truly have skin in the game to the quality of their product or service that you present.

Finally, for the cost involved, what percentage of accidents within the US currently unsolved, with the massive data currently being collected, would now be solved.

Because, the NTSB is asking for an actual economic good from an industry that is not exactly a model of profitability currently, and likely faces significant other challenges in an inflationary, anti-carbon, continuing COVID impacted economy. So, you're so convinced...show me the numbers.


You are going way off topic to try and deflect. The FAA makes airlines do lots of things that may or may not make the operation safer but definitely decreases their profits.

Earlier you stated "let them try". That sounds like a threat. What are you intending to do if you don't get your way? Public perception dictates policy. If the public demands more accountability from pilots then they will get it. You're not helping matters by sticking up for pilots that report to work intoxicated. I remember ALPA going to bat for a Northwest pilot high on cocaine and leading the cops on a chase. I would never stand up for such a coworker and would do everything I can to see them terminated. If you want to be seen as a professional then you should demand professionalism from your fellow pilots.
 
reltney
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:22 am

Aesma wrote:
There are cars on the road with dozens of cameras, don't expect aircraft to stay free of them for long.



If you accept at in your workplace with you under video the whole time you are at work and in every meeting, hallway, over your shoulder, then I’ll consider it. If it is used for ANYTHING other than a fatal accident investigation and/or any is EVER leaked to the public, it’s an automatic 10years jail time for all parties who leaked it.

Cheers..
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:29 am

Cubsrule wrote:

Does FAA have the authority to promulgate a regulation that says that no video shall be used in an action against a pilot's certificate and that no certificate holder shall use video to take action against an employee? I think it probably does, and that sort of regulation would seemingly take care of the parade of horribles you envision.


I'm not an administrative law expert, but my initial impression would be "no." The reg would have to have some basis in FAR 135/91k/125/121 which I don't currently see (not saying its not there or couldn't be there, just I don't see it.) The FAA or any regulatory body can only issue regs based in CFR. Even then, it would only apply to the named personnel and not management writ large in a company.

Again, this isn't my field, but the regs usually don't discuss company operations/discipline for good legal reasons.
 
reltney
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:30 am

Cubsrule wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

No, what I'm saying is that if you had as much weight as you thought did, the FAA would never take any disciplinary against pilots. That isn't the case.

I'll ask the question again. Do you believe pilots are better than bank employees, fast food workers, store clerks, cops, judges, surgeons, etc? Why are you exempt from cameras?


I love how every conversation about cameras is about the pilots.

Does the NTSB or the FAA record the consistent minutiae of their work place and provide it on demand? How about our C suite betters?

CVRs were sold on the promise their use was safety only, as was FOQA data. Consistently, that trust has been abused.

Indeed, if we are going to explore the scenario you present, pilots are the only ones who truly have skin in the game to the quality of their product or service that you present.

Finally, for the cost involved, what percentage of accidents within the US currently unsolved, with the massive data currently being collected, would now be solved.

Because, the NTSB is asking for an actual economic good from an industry that is not exactly a model of profitability currently, and likely faces significant other challenges in an inflationary, anti-carbon, continuing COVID impacted economy. So, you're so convinced...show me the numbers.


Does FAA have the authority to promulgate a regulation that says that no video shall be used in an action against a pilot's certificate and that no certificate holder shall use video to take action against an employee? I think it probably does, and that sort of regulation would seemingly take care of the parade of horribles you envision.


It does say that.
This is not a nasty response but the logic of it. Believe it or not, about 6 actual CVR recordings are out for the public to hear the cries of death on a recording. All those responsible for that should be held in high contempt . I personally would hunt them down for prosecution if my loved one was involved in the accident and the public got ahold of it. Picture your son in a car wreck where the camera was pointed at his body as the concrete pillar crushed him and the video was released.... how would you respond.....

Lots to think about... Sure, there are some sickos out there who love that stuff but sickos opinions don’t count for their weird fetish.

Cheers!
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:31 am

reltney wrote:
Aesma wrote:
There are cars on the road with dozens of cameras, don't expect aircraft to stay free of them for long.



If you accept at in your workplace with you under video the whole time you are at work and in every meeting, hallway, over your shoulder, then I’ll consider it. If it is used for ANYTHING other than a fatal accident investigation and/or any is EVER leaked to the public, it’s an automatic 10years jail time for all parties who leaked it.

Cheers..


Should the same apply to police body cameras? So far none of you have explained why you are above being filmed. And yes, a great many employees are tracked by cameras, employer issued phones/tablets/laptops, and internet use. If I don't like that then I can leave. None of us are owed a job. Buy your own jet and you can run it however you want.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:35 am

reltney wrote:
Aesma wrote:
There are cars on the road with dozens of cameras, don't expect aircraft to stay free of them for long.



If you accept at in your workplace with you under video the whole time you are at work and in every meeting, hallway, over your shoulder, then I’ll consider it. If it is used for ANYTHING other than a fatal accident investigation and/or any is EVER leaked to the public, it’s an automatic 10years jail time for all parties who leaked it.

Cheers..
This is what I mean when I say entitled.

How many banks do you see releasing videos willy nilly? Or hospitals? How many bus/taxi companies or airports release videos for giggles? How many airlines with cameras on their back office operations release video feed just because it is fun to leak? Even tech companies keep a lot of things private.

The airlines would never release something if it has the means of even slightly negatively impacting the business. No business does this. So what are pilots really afraid of that other professionals have no problem working under?
 
acecrackshot
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:22 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Should the same apply to police body cameras? So far none of you have explained why you are above being filmed. And yes, a great many employees are tracked by cameras, employer issued phones/tablets/laptops, and internet use. If I don't like that then I can leave. None of us are owed a job. Buy your own jet and you can run it however you want.


My employment is covered by a contract with my company. I guess I don't understand the "owed a job" comment other than what seems some profound ignorance of the actual conditions at an airline in the US. Pilot jobs are among the most competitive, most scrutinized, most consistently tested professionals in the US. Certainly more than police officers or CEOs.

The onus is on you to explain what taxpayer like standing police body cams and flight deck cameras share, other than the word "camera."
 
tcfc424
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:51 am

Most of the arguments against cameras in the cockpit relate to use by someone other than an investigator/investigative agency involved in the investigation of a significant incident. The lack of arguments against that would indicate that many do feel that would be a reasonable use. Now, there's the separate issue of how that information is protected outside of an official investigation. Encryption and security has come a long ways, and there are ways that the recording could be encrypted and stored, and then decrypted, perhaps at a single location (NTSB lab in DC?) The encryption/decryption information could also be kept off-line, inaccessible to hackers infiltrating a network. Sure, there is always the possibility that someone could access sensitive information and use it maliciously, but there should be the harshest of punishments available.

To put in perspective, 2 decryption codes could exist, 1 in a vault at the NTSB lab in DC with very limited access (4 individuals?) and 1 in an alternative location (nuclear military base?) also in a vault with limited access (another 4 people?) The only way to use the video would be to decrypt it, and that would require being physically loaded/uploaded to the lab and then authorized personnel obtaining the appropriate decryption key and downloading on to a non-connected computer. Strict rules/laws could protect the release of that information. It sounds James Bond-like, but it really would not be a difficult system to implement. Additionally, this would protect from access by foreign agents/governments, as law would dictate when/how the NTSB could/would share that information.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:28 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:59 am

acecrackshot wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Should the same apply to police body cameras? So far none of you have explained why you are above being filmed. And yes, a great many employees are tracked by cameras, employer issued phones/tablets/laptops, and internet use. If I don't like that then I can leave. None of us are owed a job. Buy your own jet and you can run it however you want.


My employment is covered by a contract with my company. I guess I don't understand the "owed a job" comment other than what seems some profound ignorance of the actual conditions at an airline in the US. Pilot jobs are among the most competitive, most scrutinized, most consistently tested professionals in the US. Certainly more than police officers or CEOs.

The onus is on you to explain what taxpayer like standing police body cams and flight deck cameras share, other than the word "camera."
They are more scrutinized than CEO's. They are not more scrutinized than police officers.

Pilots are similarly entitled because there are fewer pilots than there are needed and regulation (in the US) has made it damn expensive to become one. This is over-regulation, which always happens when there is a fatal accident linked to egregious error. Any other profession where there are more people looking for jobs than there are positions and you would not hear this sort of noise.
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 5751
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:01 am

ojjunior wrote:
Why are pilots so against it?
Anything to hide?
Trains, buses, ships, subways even cabs have cameras on it pretty much anywhere in the world for years and no one complains.
It is about safety gentlemen, sorry if this offends your valuable privacy, you're not better than any other worker subject to this.


Can you name a safety benefit of having a camera in a cockpit?
Can you think of any accident in recent times that may have been avoided with a camera in the cockpit?

Everything has a cost/benefit ratio. For operators and manufacturers, a camera system is one more expensive thing that has to be designed and maintained. One more thing liable to get an airplane AOG when it breaks. A few more kilos of hardware sucking more of your fuel.
Unless someone can demonstrate a clear safety benefit from having one, all I can think of is making the investigator's job easier and a assuage the morbid curiosity of a bunch of internet armchair enthusiasts.

Another aspect people outside of the profession often fail to grasp is the potential legal implications.
Any safety event in aviation is very quickly followed by an army of lawyers erecting legal walls around all the parties concerned. This is where you'll usually find a billion dollar aircraft manufacturer and their battalion of lawyers going against a billion dollar airline and their platoon of lawyers going against a couple of pilots who will have to scrape whatever few savings they have to find a couple of small firms willing to defend them.
The former 2 will always try to pin the blame on the pilots, they're easy preys.
There is a reason manuals are essentially written by lawyers nowadays. Whatever happened during the safety event, lawyers will always be able to find something among the thousands of pages of ops manuals that the pilots were not compliant with.

A camera, aside from not increasing safety since there is nothing it can do to prevent an accident (unless you assume pilots would somehow fly safer with a camera pointed at them), will only give more fodder to lawyers.
Not to mention that it's bad enough that the crew's last words essentially end up in the open for all to listen to, I can't imagine having the footage of their last moments alive be freely distributed online for all those sick enthusiasts of macabre content to watch, since there will essentially be no way to ensure the tape isn't leaked. Great for the families... :sarcastic:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:10 am

Francoflier wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
Why are pilots so against it?
Anything to hide?
Trains, buses, ships, subways even cabs have cameras on it pretty much anywhere in the world for years and no one complains.
It is about safety gentlemen, sorry if this offends your valuable privacy, you're not better than any other worker subject to this.


Can you name a safety benefit of having a camera in a cockpit?
Can you think of any accident in recent times that may have been avoided with a camera in the cockpit?

Everything has a cost/benefit ratio. For operators and manufacturers, a camera system is one more expensive thing that has to be designed and maintained. One more thing liable to get an airplane AOG when it breaks. A few more kilos of hardware sucking more of your fuel.
Unless someone can demonstrate a clear safety benefit from having one, all I can think of is making the investigator's job easier and a assuage the morbid curiosity of a bunch of internet armchair enthusiasts.

Another aspect people outside of the profession often fail to grasp is the potential legal implications.
Any safety event in aviation is very quickly followed by an army of lawyers erecting legal walls around all the parties concerned. This is where you'll usually find a billion dollar aircraft manufacturer and their battalion of lawyers going against a billion dollar airline and their platoon of lawyers going against a couple of pilots who will have to scrape whatever few savings they have to find a couple of small firms willing to defend them.
The former 2 will always try to pin the blame on the pilots, they're easy preys.
There is a reason manuals are essentially written by lawyers nowadays. Whatever happened during the safety event, lawyers will always be able to find something among the thousands of pages of ops manuals that the pilots were not compliant with.

A camera, aside from not increasing safety since there is nothing it can do to prevent an accident (unless you assume pilots would somehow fly safer with a camera pointed at them), will only give more fodder to lawyers.
Not to mention that it's bad enough that the crew's last words essentially end up in the open for all to listen to, I can't imagine having the footage of their last moments alive be freely distributed online for all those sick enthusiasts of macabre content to watch, since there will essentially be no way to ensure the tape isn't leaked. Great for the families... :sarcastic:


Why wouldn't you want the investigators job to be easier? The sooner they find the cause the sooner it can be corrected. Whether that be mechanical or human error.

Imagine if Boeing or Airbus demanded their airplanes not be monitored by an FDR...

And what in the world makes you believe the NTSB would upload the crash video for everyone to see?
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