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zeke
Posts: 16077
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:00 am

2175301 wrote:
I'd like you to find the legal ruling that says that, or even a lawyer willing to file that as a defense in a court case.

In the USA courts have ruled that vehicles owned or leased by companies are part of the employers premises of doing business when being used for company business.

Also, if someone is transporting multiple employees in a private vehicle for company purposes and something happens that should not - the private vehicle is considered temporary employer premises as its being used for company business.


"Q: Please define "premises" for the trucking industry. Is the truck part of premises? What about loading and unloading? Is the area around the truck considered part of the premises ?

A : A truck on the road or loading and unloading away from home base would be off the employer's premises. However, injury or illness exposure experienced during these activities would be work related because the employee is engaged in work related activities. The truck and its surroundings are considered part of the work environment even though they are not part of the employers premises."

Reference 50 Fed. Reg. 29138 (July. 17, 1985) https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/s ... 050137.pdf
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:09 am

I’ve never worked under video supervision, my employers trusted me to do my job, reviewed my performance thru established processes, checkrides and meeting goals and budgets. They don’t need to watch over me every minute. That’s control freaks instilling fear in job, not trust or respect, which definitely does have a place in work. They give pilots $100 million asset, board 300 passengers but they don’t trust you. Really?

BTW, I never had a contract in civilian employment—“I’ll do the job you employed me for, if it’s not to your liking, you free to ask for resignation”. That’s was a agreement in four civilian jobs, even in the military, I told my boss, “fire me, if you don’t like my performance”. If you need a written contract, you should work elsewhere.
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:37 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’ve never worked under video supervision, my employers trusted me to do my job, reviewed my performance thru established processes, checkrides and meeting goals and budgets. They don’t need to watch over me every minute. That’s control freaks instilling fear in job, not trust or respect, which definitely does have a place in work. They give pilots $100 million asset, board 300 passengers but they don’t trust you. Really?

BTW, I never had a contract in civilian employment—“I’ll do the job you employed me for, if it’s not to your liking, you free to ask for resignation”. That’s was a agreement in four civilian jobs, even in the military, I told my boss, “fire me, if you don’t like my performance”. If you need a written contract, you should work elsewhere.


I think the real underlying reason for surveillance in many businesses was the rise in false claims by unscrupulous employees and members of the public and the ambulance casing lawyers that would take these cases on for a no win no fee basis. It generated an environment with the absence of proof that something didn't happen, the business would pay out something just to avoid the legal expenses where the business was not at fault.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:56 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’ve never worked under video supervision, my employers trusted me to do my job, reviewed my performance thru established processes, checkrides and meeting goals and budgets. They don’t need to watch over me every minute. That’s control freaks instilling fear in job, not trust or respect, which definitely does have a place in work. They give pilots $100 million asset, board 300 passengers but they don’t trust you. Really?

BTW, I never had a contract in civilian employment—“I’ll do the job you employed me for, if it’s not to your liking, you free to ask for resignation”. That’s was a agreement in four civilian jobs, even in the military, I told my boss, “fire me, if you don’t like my performance”. If you need a written contract, you should work elsewhere.

Who on earth is telling you that the employer will be monitoring the video feed each and every minute? No one does this because it is too damn expensive. They might review footage from time to time, or go back to it when something goes wrong, the same way systems capture inputs but these inputs are not reviewed minute to minute but sometimes end of day.

The fearmongering on here is surreal and the lack of understanding how these systems work in various environments eye opening. We have gone in and even made it a trust issue. Damn.

And no one trusts pilots to do the right thing by the way. This is why we have ever increasing automation to take out human factors, this is why you might be tested for alcohol, this is why you are tested often and on the simulator from time to time. This is why there is FOQA data and the reason for accident review. You can go on and on. Trust in business is the domain of fools, and contracts exist because there is a deficit in trust.
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:41 am

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
And no one trusts pilots to do the right thing by the way. This is why we have ever increasing automation to take out human factors, this is why you might be tested for alcohol, this is why you are tested often and on the simulator from time to time. This is why there is FOQA data and the reason for accident review. You can go on and on. Trust in business is the domain of fools, and contracts exist because there is a deficit in trust.


I probably have carried the best part of 500,000 passengers in my career, and never have put anyone's life at risk, especially my own. Unlike other jobs, if I make a mistake at work, I don't get to come home. If you think the reasons for increased automation FOQA etc is because they don't trust us, you clearly have no idea of how airlines work. Everything is about reducing costs.

You sound like you have a fear of flying which is very common amongst people who do not understand how aircraft fly or the industry works, the are counselling programs available for that and they go through why aircraft fly, and how safe it is.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:07 am

This talk about employers, their premises, the trust between employer and employee and contract of the same is all very well but it's not the employers asking for the cameras, it's the NTSB.
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:16 am

zeke wrote:
You sound like you have a fear of flying which is very common amongst people who do not understand how aircraft fly or the industry works


Zeke, much of what you write is highly informative and written in such a way that it can educate and change opinions. The above, not so much.

zeke wrote:
and how safe it is.


so let's tick the "aviation is as safe as it can be" box and move on to more important things.

Cameras in cockpits may well be a no-go due to lack of cost/benefit, law or a number of other reasons, but here we can't even agree that the technology is relatively trivial.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:56 am

zeke wrote:
I probably have carried the best part of 500,000 passengers in my career, and never have put anyone's life at risk, especially my own. Unlike other jobs, if I make a mistake at work, I don't get to come home. If you think the reasons for increased automation FOQA etc is because they don't trust us, you clearly have no idea of how airlines work. Everything is about reducing costs.

You sound like you have a fear of flying which is very common amongst people who do not understand how aircraft fly or the industry works, the are counselling programs available for that and they go through why aircraft fly, and how safe it is.
If I made a mistake when I was in banking, I would lose my job, be investigated for fraud. If I make a mistake in medical research, I go to jail, never have a hope of working in medicine or research again.

Employers simply read me the riot act and state do whatever you want. If you mess up, you are out of the job, if you break the law, we will do you a favor and call law enforcement. The ability to make money and fear of consequences is what makes me stick to the thin and narrow, deliver results. It has nothing to do with trust, and when I deliver, my right is that they stick to terms of the contract and deliver what they are supposed to. Ours is purely a commercial transaction.

I have not looked to defraud any customer ever, never looked to endanger one or carry out research in such a way that was unethical. It has nothing to do with trust but everything to do with what my values are. Trust in business is the domain of fools and it is the reason why almost all contracts are written by lawyers for medium sized and big companies.

Onto the last point, you seem to be of the opinion that if someone likes or wants something that you do not want, then there must be something that is wrong with them. That they must have some fear or controlling aspect. Not so; what happened to people just wanting the best outcomes in the long run?
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:41 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Zeke, much of what you write is highly informative and written in such a way that it can educate and change opinions. The above, not so much.


The contributions on this thread which have centered around surveillance of employees rather than the investigation of accidents they are displaying and underlying distrust of flying, this is common trait with people who have a fear of flying. That fear can be successfully treated with counselling, there is no stigma associated with seeking help for the condition.

zeke wrote:
Cameras in cockpits may well be a no-go due to lack of cost/benefit, law or a number of other reasons, but here we can't even agree that the technology is relatively trivial.


When it comes to aircraft nothing is trivial, take for example ADS-B, on the surface it sounds trivial, send the GPS position out over the transponder, aircraft already have transponders, they already have GPS, should be a zero cost item ? On a something small like a Cessna 172 it could set you back $100,000 because the Garmin 1000 avionics suite was certified as part of the base aircraft, to modify that you needed to get the manufacturers modification which may contain a software update, a cable, and some pages for the flight manual, then it needs to be installed and tested at an approved facility, and paperwork sent to the FAA. On an airliner it could be a 1 million dollar upgrade.

If we use the NTSB data (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/dat ... stats.aspx) on fatalities and injuries in Part 121 operations for the last ten years, and assume a value of a statistical life (VSL) of $5 million per fatality (some people might argue that is too low), and the cost per fatality is equal to 10 major injuries, the total cost of fatalities and injuries would be $35 million. However I am unable to quantify the cost benefit that the cameras would provide, that is why the NTSB should be producing a business plan to demonstrate the value they have.
Image
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:47 am

zeke wrote:
When it comes to aircraft nothing is trivial


Which is why I wrote relatively trivial. Trivial relative to the many engineering hurdles that aviation based manufacturers solve all the time.

We're not getting anywhere here so I wish you good day and hope whatever the outcome it doesn't affect you in a negative way.
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:07 am

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
if I made a mistake when I was in banking, I would lose my job, be investigated for fraud. If I make a mistake in medical research, I go to jail, never have a hope of working in medicine or research again.


Banks make mistakes all the time, for example Citibank made a mistake in February when they wire transferred $900 million by mistake, it was not fraud, it was a mistake. In medical research, if you researcher makes a mistake, restart the experiment, document the mistake.

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
If you mess up, you are out of the job, if you break the law, we will do you a favor and call law enforcement. The ability to make money and fear of consequences is what makes me stick to the thin and narrow, deliver results. It has nothing to do with trust, and when I deliver, my right is that they stick to terms of the contract and deliver what they are supposed to. Ours is purely a commercial transaction.


Thats fine for you if you are willing to work under those contract conditions, you didn't have to sign it. Just because you have abysmal grievance process does not make it standard, or it should be forced onto others. If a pilot breaks a rule by mistake, the FAA is not going to pull the certificate, nor is the employer going to terminate anyone, they were mistakes, work out why they happened and don't do it again.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
LTEN11
Posts: 191
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:34 am

zeke wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Zeke, much of what you write is highly informative and written in such a way that it can educate and change opinions. The above, not so much.


The contributions on this thread which have centered around surveillance of employees rather than the investigation of accidents they are displaying and underlying distrust of flying, this is common trait with people who have a fear of flying. That fear can be successfully treated with counselling, there is no stigma associated with seeking help for the condition.

zeke wrote:
Cameras in cockpits may well be a no-go due to lack of cost/benefit, law or a number of other reasons, but here we can't even agree that the technology is relatively trivial.


When it comes to aircraft nothing is trivial, take for example ADS-B, on the surface it sounds trivial, send the GPS position out over the transponder, aircraft already have transponders, they already have GPS, should be a zero cost item ? On a something small like a Cessna 172 it could set you back $100,000 because the Garmin 1000 avionics suite was certified as part of the base aircraft, to modify that you needed to get the manufacturers modification which may contain a software update, a cable, and some pages for the flight manual, then it needs to be installed and tested at an approved facility, and paperwork sent to the FAA. On an airliner it could be a 1 million dollar upgrade.

If we use the NTSB data (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/dat ... stats.aspx) on fatalities and injuries in Part 121 operations for the last ten years, and assume a value of a statistical life (VSL) of $5 million per fatality (some people might argue that is too low), and the cost per fatality is equal to 10 major injuries, the total cost of fatalities and injuries would be $35 million. However I am unable to quantify the cost benefit that the cameras would provide, that is why the NTSB should be producing a business plan to demonstrate the value they have.
Image


So are you implying that everyone in this thread who doesn't agree with you has a fear of flying ? If that is truly your opinion of people who disagree with you, you are showing a level of arrogance far above your usual. You are full of information, most of it informative, some you seem to think you know all about, but when others call you out on a subject, you attack them and are condescending to most who dare argue with you.

Really, what is the harm in having cameras in the cockpit ? Before you say they won't stop an accident, who's to say after studying cockpit footage of an accident, that new procedures wouldn't be introduced because of something that has been seen during an investigation ? As others have said, any information to help determine an accidents cause can't be a bad thing. The issue of cost isn't a problem for pilots, airlines will pay and the costs will be past on to consumers, as every other increase in costs is. Are senior pilots afraid that younger inexperienced pilots maybe able to pull them up on bullying in the cockpit ? We've heard of accidents where younger pilots have been scared to voice their opinion because they have been basically scared to pull up a more senior pilot, quietly sitting there while the person they're scared of kills them all. That is an issue that cockpit cameras would be helpful in resolving.

Besides concerns for privacy, there hasn't been any valid reason given not to have cameras installed and the privacy issue raised, really is a weak one.
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:51 am

LTEN11 wrote:
Can anybody tell me if simulator sessions are currently recorded and if they are, what sort of system is used ? ie : single camera, multiple cameras and their locations ?


I'm in an A320 sim 2 or 3 times a month. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one camera mounted up high at the back (well behind where the cockpit bulkhead would be on the real A320) although they've never told me about them. I'm often in the sim (drawbridge up, motion on) alone. I'd be amazed if there wasn't video surveillance in there just for that fact alone.

I'll have a closer look next time. One thing I do know is that in the facility I use, they have a strict "no video" recording rule, which I've yet to be able to break. I wanted to live stream my sessions.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:59 am

zeke wrote:

Banks make mistakes all the time, for example Citibank made a mistake in February when they wire transferred $900 million by mistake, it was not fraud, it was a mistake. In medical research, if you researcher makes a mistake, restart the experiment, document the mistake.
When banks make a mistake, money is lost or time is wasted trying to find out what the mistake is.

When you make a mistake in research, you start over. That is wasted time, wasted reagents and there are experiments where reagents are damn expensive. In hospitals, a mistake might be a patient losing their life, bad medication might mean losing a limb. In short, no one wants errors, or having to rework. And maybe you have not noticed, but if a bank loses money, it has to cover it off profits, in research we have time and budgetary constraints. There is a margin for error, but it is not a great margin. Mess up and you run in the red or over budget and this means you are not competitive. It is not fluffy pillows and roses.

zeke wrote:
Thats fine for you if you are willing to work under those contract conditions, you didn't have to sign it. Just because you have abysmal grievance process does not make it standard, or it should be forced onto others. If a pilot breaks a rule by mistake, the FAA is not going to pull the certificate, nor is the employer going to terminate anyone, they were mistakes, work out why they happened and don't do it again.


You still do not get it. I do not expect the trust of my employer, that is worthless. What I expect is that they respect me, that they look out for the organization, and that they treat me in a fair/just manner; a manner which is unlikely to have me in trouble. Just respect, they don't even have to like me neither do I have to like them. This is how I treat everyone who has worked under my supervision and it gets work done. If I feel that the respect is not there, and it will not be there, I walk away.

Nothing is perfect, and when things go wrong when a honest mistake has been made, I will always step in and defend those under me, take responsibility because this is what a team leader does. What pilots expect, going by this topic is a work environment where they dictate what is useful, why it is useful, and if it (cameras) become a requirement, under what circumstance it should be used. Even data is being argued in a world where data is everything because it might be used to rank pilots. You are employees masquerading as employers and if you had your way, we would have seen a fraction of the advances we have seen in aviation.

Here the NTSB is stating why they want cameras. People are not telling us why they are not needed apart from 'my privacy' or 'use existing measures' or 'we don't want this to be used as a tool to discipline us.' Self centered answers that move nothing forward.
 
mxaxai
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:44 am

LTEN11 wrote:
Really, what is the harm in having cameras in the cockpit ?... Are senior pilots afraid that younger inexperienced pilots maybe able to pull them up on bullying in the cockpit ? We've heard of accidents where younger pilots have been scared to voice their opinion because they have been basically scared to pull up a more senior pilot, quietly sitting there while the person they're scared of kills them all.

A camera that's available to your employer fosters a culture of fear rather than trust. Your objective becomes to look like you're a professional, safe pilot, not to actually be one.

Pilots are humans, not machines. Like all humans, they have imperfections like emotions, insecurities, forgetting things. Being bored, tired or anxious. These inherently human traits do not generally prevent safe flight; it is an instructor's job to make this judgement. If you can't fly safely, you can't get a license.

A manager, on the other hand, cares only about their bottom line. All these human imperfections, when caught on camera, can be used for disciplinary action. It may be safe but if they think it's "unprofessional" it's impossible to argue. Forgot to shave your beard? Unprofessional. Opened the top button of your shirt? Unprofessional. Looked tired? Unprofessional.
But these are all cosmetic items. It gets worse when actual piloting is scrutinized. Hesitated before pushing a button? Unprofessional. Criticized the captain? Clearly unprofessional. Used a written checklist for memory items? You guessed it, unprofessional as well.

Some posts insinuated that pilots engage in reckless and illegal behaviours every day. That is wrong and not the reason to oppose cameras. It's the daily trivial actions that would put you at risk of disciplinary action by your manager. This runs counter to the current best approach for safety, which is to encourage voluntary reporting and to avoid penalties, as put by the FAA:
Pilots, air traffic controllers, flight attendants, mechanics, ground personnel, and others involved in aviation operations submit reports to the ASRS when they are involved in, or observe, an incident or situation in which aviation safety may have been compromised. All submissions are voluntary.

Reports sent to the ASRS are held in strict confidence. More than one million reports have been submitted to date and no reporter's identity has ever been breached by the ASRS. ASRS de-identifies reports before entering them into the incident database. All personal and organizational names are removed. Dates, times, and related information, which could be used to infer an identity, are either generalized or eliminated.

The FAA offers ASRS reporters further guarantees and incentives to report. It has committed itself not to use ASRS information against reporters in enforcement actions. It has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS. The FAA's initiation, and continued support of the ASRS program and its willingness to waive penalties in qualifying cases is a measure of the value it places on the safety information gathered, and the products made possible, through incident reporting to the ASRS.


What would happen can already be observed on some railroads:
SooLineRob wrote:
And yes ... the railroad companies' managers watch these video feeds live as well as archived footage ... and use anything and everything they see AGAINST the employees no matter how trivial (such as opening the side window one inch without wearing safety glasses and ear plugs).
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1134
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:46 pm

mxaxai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Really, what is the harm in having cameras in the cockpit ?... Are senior pilots afraid that younger inexperienced pilots maybe able to pull them up on bullying in the cockpit ? We've heard of accidents where younger pilots have been scared to voice their opinion because they have been basically scared to pull up a more senior pilot, quietly sitting there while the person they're scared of kills them all.

A camera that's available to your employer fosters a culture of fear rather than trust. Your objective becomes to look like you're a professional, safe pilot, not to actually be one.

Pilots are humans, not machines. Like all humans, they have imperfections like emotions, insecurities, forgetting things. Being bored, tired or anxious. These inherently human traits do not generally prevent safe flight; it is an instructor's job to make this judgement. If you can't fly safely, you can't get a license.

A manager, on the other hand, cares only about their bottom line. All these human imperfections, when caught on camera, can be used for disciplinary action. It may be safe but if they think it's "unprofessional" it's impossible to argue. Forgot to shave your beard? Unprofessional. Opened the top button of your shirt? Unprofessional. Looked tired? Unprofessional.
But these are all cosmetic items. It gets worse when actual piloting is scrutinized. Hesitated before pushing a button? Unprofessional. Criticized the captain? Clearly unprofessional. Used a written checklist for memory items? You guessed it, unprofessional as well.

Some posts insinuated that pilots engage in reckless and illegal behaviours every day. That is wrong and not the reason to oppose cameras. It's the daily trivial actions that would put you at risk of disciplinary action by your manager. This runs counter to the current best approach for safety, which is to encourage voluntary reporting and to avoid penalties, as put by the FAA:
Pilots, air traffic controllers, flight attendants, mechanics, ground personnel, and others involved in aviation operations submit reports to the ASRS when they are involved in, or observe, an incident or situation in which aviation safety may have been compromised. All submissions are voluntary.

Reports sent to the ASRS are held in strict confidence. More than one million reports have been submitted to date and no reporter's identity has ever been breached by the ASRS. ASRS de-identifies reports before entering them into the incident database. All personal and organizational names are removed. Dates, times, and related information, which could be used to infer an identity, are either generalized or eliminated.

The FAA offers ASRS reporters further guarantees and incentives to report. It has committed itself not to use ASRS information against reporters in enforcement actions. It has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS. The FAA's initiation, and continued support of the ASRS program and its willingness to waive penalties in qualifying cases is a measure of the value it places on the safety information gathered, and the products made possible, through incident reporting to the ASRS.


What would happen can already be observed on some railroads:
SooLineRob wrote:
And yes ... the railroad companies' managers watch these video feeds live as well as archived footage ... and use anything and everything they see AGAINST the employees no matter how trivial (such as opening the side window one inch without wearing safety glasses and ear plugs).


From the pilot's perspective it is an understandable position to take, although on the issue of them acting differently (and so less safely) because of the presence of the cameras is, IMHO, a bit of a stretch - ie it would not be the first industry where they have been introduced and people tend to end up ignoring them unless they have some kind of mental instability whereby anyone questioning their ability to always be right is unacceptable.

What I believe lessens that argument tremendously is to then take on every other position that might help their own automatically, regardless of merit, looking only for the negative, to support the valid concern. Such as suggesting the technology is not up to it, or there is nothing in a picture that would not be easily observed in the CVR / FDR. That just doesn't seem to pass even the sniff test.

I also find it interesting that the "they are only human" and "they are highly trained, highly skilled professionals" angles come up quite often. The former to explain why they are susceptible to the same things as mere mortals and the latter to explain why similar rules should not apply across the board. Can't have it both ways without raising questions.

Playing every angle regardless of the merits just means that the valid points get lost in all the noise, doing nobody any favours.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2637
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:55 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
The "they are only human" and "they are highly trained, highly skilled professionals" angles come up quite often. The former to explain why they are susceptible to the same things as mere mortals and the latter to explain why similar rules should not apply across the board.

I don't see your contradiction.

Pilots are highly trained and undergo regular examinations to prove that their training is still up to date, which is rarely the case for most other professions. If a pilot shows unsafe behaviour or attitudes in the examination, they fail the check ride and get additional training to correct that. If they fail repeatedly - which is rare - they lose their license. This makes it very unlikely for pilots to make errors that affect the safety of a flight. On a typical day at a large airline, you'd be recording hundreds of hours of video without any safety-relevant occurence.

On the other hand, they're still very human. After all, "human factors" plays a huge part in aircraft development. There is some leeway in their behaviour without compromising safety, and people with different backgrounds may choose different solutions for the same problem. An experienced instructor knows that. As long as the pilot adheres to the fundamentals of safe flying, they'll grant a license. But a manager or anyone else who isn't 100% focused on safety can easily use those daily deviations to harass and punish the pilot. Fear of punishment has been found to reduce safety, not increase it.

That's why video monitoring by managers / employers is both unnecessary and detrimental to safety.

The fact that other similar professions such as railway drivers are already subject to such monitoring sets a bad example. In my opinion, similar rules should exist across the board: no mass video surveillance of employees by their employers.
 
Shakinthefat
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:40 pm

NTSB - we will only use video footage for investigations, we promise we will not release footage to CNN or FOX.
PILOTS - not sure why the video camera circuit breaker keeps tripping.
Heart Surgeon - are you kidding video cameras for insurance company viewing!
 
LTEN11
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:52 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Can anybody tell me if simulator sessions are currently recorded and if they are, what sort of system is used ? ie : single camera, multiple cameras and their locations ?


I'm in an A320 sim 2 or 3 times a month. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one camera mounted up high at the back (well behind where the cockpit bulkhead would be on the real A320) although they've never told me about them. I'm often in the sim (drawbridge up, motion on) alone. I'd be amazed if there wasn't video surveillance in there just for that fact alone.

I'll have a closer look next time. One thing I do know is that in the facility I use, they have a strict "no video" recording rule, which I've yet to be able to break. I wanted to live stream my sessions.


Thanks, I would've assumed it would be a valuable training tool, though I can understand them not wanting the "customers" to record their sessions, can't be seen to be flying your aircraft to some remote part of the world and intentionally crashing it.
 
LTEN11
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:34 am

mxaxai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Really, what is the harm in having cameras in the cockpit ?... Are senior pilots afraid that younger inexperienced pilots maybe able to pull them up on bullying in the cockpit ? We've heard of accidents where younger pilots have been scared to voice their opinion because they have been basically scared to pull up a more senior pilot, quietly sitting there while the person they're scared of kills them all.

A camera that's available to your employer fosters a culture of fear rather than trust. Your objective becomes to look like you're a professional, safe pilot, not to actually be one.

Pilots are humans, not machines. Like all humans, they have imperfections like emotions, insecurities, forgetting things. Being bored, tired or anxious. These inherently human traits do not generally prevent safe flight; it is an instructor's job to make this judgement. If you can't fly safely, you can't get a license.

A manager, on the other hand, cares only about their bottom line. All these human imperfections, when caught on camera, can be used for disciplinary action. It may be safe but if they think it's "unprofessional" it's impossible to argue. Forgot to shave your beard? Unprofessional. Opened the top button of your shirt? Unprofessional. Looked tired? Unprofessional.
But these are all cosmetic items. It gets worse when actual piloting is scrutinized. Hesitated before pushing a button? Unprofessional. Criticized the captain? Clearly unprofessional. Used a written checklist for memory items? You guessed it, unprofessional as well.

Some posts insinuated that pilots engage in reckless and illegal behaviours every day. That is wrong and not the reason to oppose cameras. It's the daily trivial actions that would put you at risk of disciplinary action by your manager. This runs counter to the current best approach for safety, which is to encourage voluntary reporting and to avoid penalties, as put by the FAA:
Pilots, air traffic controllers, flight attendants, mechanics, ground personnel, and others involved in aviation operations submit reports to the ASRS when they are involved in, or observe, an incident or situation in which aviation safety may have been compromised. All submissions are voluntary.

Reports sent to the ASRS are held in strict confidence. More than one million reports have been submitted to date and no reporter's identity has ever been breached by the ASRS. ASRS de-identifies reports before entering them into the incident database. All personal and organizational names are removed. Dates, times, and related information, which could be used to infer an identity, are either generalized or eliminated.

The FAA offers ASRS reporters further guarantees and incentives to report. It has committed itself not to use ASRS information against reporters in enforcement actions. It has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS. The FAA's initiation, and continued support of the ASRS program and its willingness to waive penalties in qualifying cases is a measure of the value it places on the safety information gathered, and the products made possible, through incident reporting to the ASRS.


What would happen can already be observed on some railroads:
SooLineRob wrote:
And yes ... the railroad companies' managers watch these video feeds live as well as archived footage ... and use anything and everything they see AGAINST the employees no matter how trivial (such as opening the side window one inch without wearing safety glasses and ear plugs).


I've never had a problem with cameras where I've worked, simply because I do the job I'm employed to do. We have appearance requirements as well, not exactly a tough thing to follow, look the part do the part. Guess what, all the other things you mentioned, millions of other people around the world deal with everyday as well.

So you're coming back to a fear of how you appear to be doing your job, not how you're actually doing the job and how you could possibly appear if the footage was to be reviewed by management. Instead of worrying about how you might appear, just get on with what you should be doing, do it right and everything else tends to take care of it's self. Sure mistakes can happen, as you say pilots are human, but surely it would help others if that mistake happened to end in a crash, that there would be video evidence showing what had happened, actual pictures, rather than an investigator trying to paint a mental picture of what was going on in the cockpit from the other data retrieved ? Shit happens, people make mistakes, but having a fear of cameras because you might make one mistake per year, per month, per flight, is just irrational.

Do you think a camera on the bridge of the ship that blocked the Suez Canal would've helped in the investigation ?
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:48 am

LTEN11 wrote:
Do you think a camera on the bridge of the ship that blocked the Suez Canal would've helped in the investigation ?


All the press I have read about that event all people were trying to establish is who was at fault, so litigation could follow. There was no real desire to understand why it happened or to prevent it reoccurring.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
ordbosewr
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:12 am

zeke wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Do you think a camera on the bridge of the ship that blocked the Suez Canal would've helped in the investigation ?


All the press I have read about that event all people were trying to establish is who was at fault, so litigation could follow. There was no real desire to understand why it happened or to prevent it reoccurring.


I think the finding who is at fault is actually finding out how to prevent future faults and THAT is the point of why the NTSB is calling for this.
I feel like this discussion is about blaming an individual person (that is what lawyers will do), but the NTSB really cares about safety. They want to make everything safer, so we need to look at this from that lens.

I will admit I out of my league here, but, could this not be treated like how the US ASRS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_ ... ing_System) allows for the investigation and corrections that make travel safe.

Also, even if the NTSB gets what it wants I suspect that every Pilots union in the US will have a say through contract negotiations when and what that video can be accessed\shared\etc (which they should).
I feel it is about checks and balances. We want to check that when something goes wrong we have the data to make it not happen again, at the same time we want to ensure that pilots feel they can do their job without fear of micromanagement.

We have incidents that have happened that deserve explainations, like this one;
https://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2009/ ... xplanation
I want to say I thought i saw a UA flight from India just this week did lose communication, but I can't find a link.
 
LTEN11
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:40 am

zeke wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Do you think a camera on the bridge of the ship that blocked the Suez Canal would've helped in the investigation ?


All the press I have read about that event all people were trying to establish is who was at fault, so litigation could follow. There was no real desire to understand why it happened or to prevent it reoccurring.


Yer, I know and it's a sad indictment of the modern world.

But getting away from the cynical side, it's pretty obvious that a camera on the bridge would help in any investigation.
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:22 am

ordbosewr wrote:
every Pilots union in the US will have a say through contract negotiations when and what that video can be accessed\shared\etc (which they should).


They would have nothing to fear. It was already mentioned upthread that there is nothing in a cockpit video that gives information regarding pilot action or inaction that cannot be determined from the CVR / FDR with the specific "it provides no information at all on what the pilots or the aircraft is doing".
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’ve never worked under video supervision, my employers trusted me to do my job, reviewed my performance thru established processes, checkrides and meeting goals and budgets. They don’t need to watch over me every minute. That’s control freaks instilling fear in job, not trust or respect, which definitely does have a place in work. They give pilots $100 million asset, board 300 passengers but they don’t trust you. Really?

BTW, I never had a contract in civilian employment—“I’ll do the job you employed me for, if it’s not to your liking, you free to ask for resignation”. That’s was a agreement in four civilian jobs, even in the military, I told my boss, “fire me, if you don’t like my performance”. If you need a written contract, you should work elsewhere.


'Video supervision' is a gross misnomer. Video provides valuable data - nothing more. Data that can be called upon when there are harassment claims, unfair workplace claims, safety claims, any number of things. It's both for employees' and company benefit to have more information available when claims arise - HR can avoid 'he said/she said', dubious claims by subordinates, and bad faith accusations by colleagues regarding incompetence or performance. Video allows everything I mentioned to be cleared up without lengthy and costly interviews, and minimizes the need to utilize outside counsel to resolve issues.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:58 am

Aaron747 wrote:
'Video supervision' is a gross misnomer. Video provides valuable data - nothing more. Data that can be called upon when there are harassment claims, unfair workplace claims, safety claims, any number of things. It's both for employees' and company benefit to have more information available when claims arise - HR can avoid 'he said/she said', dubious claims by subordinates, and bad faith accusations by colleagues regarding incompetence or performance. Video allows everything I mentioned to be cleared up without lengthy and costly interviews, and minimizes the need to utilize outside counsel to resolve issues.


You realize that the vast majorly of posts on this thread including yours are advocating the use of cockpit video for other than accident investigation. One of the reasons it is opposed is the argument that it will be used for other than accident investigation, just like CVRs, FDRs, FOQA etc are been. When I have made this point, people have suggested pilots must therefore have something to hide. We simply don't trust employers to keep the agreements they enter into, there is a very long list of broken agreements.

For example, I know of an airline that pays FOs a commission to come in on days off to listen to CVR recordings to "fine" the captain, pay is deducted by the captain, a commission paid to the FO, and the majority of the fine kept by the airline. Another poster on this thread described how their airline used FDR like data to grade FOs to see who gets promoted to captain. After a recent crash in Indonesia the CVR of another accident was morbidly posted on facebook as being the last moments of that crash.

CVRs, FDRs, FOQA etc were "sold" as a safety measures, only to be used for safety investigation. In reality these have been abused time and again for unrelated purposes, just like you have suggesting should be done with video.

BTW my estimate this would require an additional $10 per ticket to pay for this implementation over a year, the cost of implementation would be paid for by passengers, not the NTSB.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:15 am

zeke wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
'Video supervision' is a gross misnomer. Video provides valuable data - nothing more. Data that can be called upon when there are harassment claims, unfair workplace claims, safety claims, any number of things. It's both for employees' and company benefit to have more information available when claims arise - HR can avoid 'he said/she said', dubious claims by subordinates, and bad faith accusations by colleagues regarding incompetence or performance. Video allows everything I mentioned to be cleared up without lengthy and costly interviews, and minimizes the need to utilize outside counsel to resolve issues.


For example, I know of an airline that pays FOs a commission to come in on days off to listen to CVR recordings to "fine" the captain, pay is deducted by the captain, a commission paid to the FO, and the majority of the fine kept by the airline. Another poster on this thread described how their airline used FDR like data to grade FOs to see who gets promoted to captain. After a recent crash in Indonesia the CVR of another accident was morbidly posted on facebook as being the last moments of that crash.

CVRs, FDRs, FOQA etc were "sold" as a safety measures, only to be used for safety investigation. In reality these have been abused time and again for unrelated purposes, just like you have suggesting should be done with video.


I hear where you're coming from, and of course there would have to be consultation with employee groups over how and when the data can be used - in the examples of benefits I cited, there should be little logical opposition. That can all be hashed out between airline and union attorneys. Some of the examples you gave don't seem likely to succeed in the US, where unions and courts would definitely take issue with lower seniority employees 'grading' superiors in a self-interested manner to compute pay penalties(! what country is that??). Also posting CVR data on social media outside of an official government investigation would be met with criminal penalties. We're not Indonesia. As for other examples, like use of flight data in promotion decisions, there shouldn't be an issue so long as that's not heavily weighted above all other criteria. If a company determines that cost consciousness is one of the considerations in judgment of overall employee performance, that is not unreasonable. Companies have a right to look after their own interest just as employee groups do. Just looking for balance here.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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zeke
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:30 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Some of the examples you gave don't seem likely to succeed in the US, where unions and courts would definitely take issue with lower seniority employees 'grading' superiors in a self-interested manner to compute pay penalties(! what country is that??).


That is in the US, pay and conditions at the lower end of the industry are very ordinary, elements of that came to light with the Colgan Air and US Airways accidents.

Aaron747 wrote:
Also posting CVR data on social media outside of an official government investigation would be met with criminal penalties.


And yet it happened this year, someone posted what they claimed to be the Sriwijaya Air CVR final moments when the memory module was still on the sea floor, it was the final moments of a previous crash. There is no control over any CVR/FDR/FOQA etc data once the aircraft is outside of the US, US laws and procedures do not apply.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:56 am

zeke wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Some of the examples you gave don't seem likely to succeed in the US, where unions and courts would definitely take issue with lower seniority employees 'grading' superiors in a self-interested manner to compute pay penalties(! what country is that??).


That is in the US, pay and conditions at the lower end of the industry are very ordinary, elements of that came to light with the Colgan Air and US Airways accidents.

Aaron747 wrote:
Also posting CVR data on social media outside of an official government investigation would be met with criminal penalties.


And yet it happened this year, someone posted what they claimed to be the Sriwijaya Air CVR final moments when the memory module was still on the sea floor, it was the final moments of a previous crash. There is no control over any CVR/FDR/FOQA etc data once the aircraft is outside of the US, US laws and procedures do not apply.


I was talking about the major industry, not regional carriers that are perenially non-unionized. There will not be any resolution to labor conditions in the regional market for the foreseeable future due to market conditions and the absence of significant regulation.

As for the CVR release, like I said, we're not Indonesia. Federal law and employment regulations within the US would pertain to any conditions there, which is the primary concern of the proposed ruling here.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mxaxai
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:17 am

LTEN11 wrote:
I've never had a problem with cameras where I've worked, simply because I do the job I'm employed to do. We have appearance requirements as well, not exactly a tough thing to follow, look the part do the part. Guess what, all the other things you mentioned, millions of other people around the world deal with everyday as well.

If you're such a perfect infallible worker that nothing on video could ever be used against you, why does your employer feel the need for cameras in the first place?

Aaron747 wrote:
As for the CVR release, like I said, we're not Indonesia. Federal law and employment regulations within the US would pertain to any conditions there, which is the primary concern of the proposed ruling here.

As soon as an aircraft leaves the US, the video would be accessible to people who are not subject to US federal law.
 
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:35 am

mxaxai wrote:
As soon as an aircraft leaves the US, the video would be accessible to people who are not subject to US federal law.


Not if the data is restricted via access keys only the NTSB and/or airline have.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:23 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
As soon as an aircraft leaves the US, the video would be accessible to people who are not subject to US federal law.


Not if the data is restricted via access keys only the NTSB and/or airline have.


Logic and common sense have no place in this discussion :)
 
ordbosewr
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:58 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
ordbosewr wrote:
every Pilots union in the US will have a say through contract negotiations when and what that video can be accessed\shared\etc (which they should).


They would have nothing to fear. It was already mentioned upthread that there is nothing in a cockpit video that gives information regarding pilot action or inaction that cannot be determined from the CVR / FDR with the specific "it provides no information at all on what the pilots or the aircraft is doing".


But then can you 'explain' using those you reference a 'cause' for the NW incident I linked?
Where they really on the computer as (I believe) the pilots claim?

Do we really know for sure what happened to Payne Stewarts plane? yes, it was a private plane that would probably not have fallen under jusidiction but is a good example of 'what happened' and do we really have all of the facts.
 
mxaxai
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
As soon as an aircraft leaves the US, the video would be accessible to people who are not subject to US federal law.


Not if the data is restricted via access keys only the NTSB and/or airline have.

So assuming only US-registered aircraft are fitted with cameras, what do you think would happen with the video if a foreign authority requested access to the recording? If all aircraft worldwide have cameras, does access to the video require the cooperation of the registration state? If so, this would probably have been of little use in the two EgyptAir flights, especially MS990 where the Egyptian ECAA strongly disagreed with the NTSB/FBI investigation.

Though I personally wouldn't object to video recording if it was strictly limited to use by the NTSB. I just don't think anybody else should be able to view the video, especially not airlines. The NTSB cares about safety, airlines not so much.
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:21 pm

mxaxai wrote:
So assuming only US-registered aircraft are fitted with cameras, what do you think would happen with the video if a foreign authority requested access to the recording? If all aircraft worldwide have cameras, does access to the video require the cooperation of the registration state? If so, this would probably have been of little use in the two EgyptAir flights, especially MS990 where the Egyptian ECAA strongly disagreed with the NTSB/FBI investigation.

Though I personally wouldn't object to video recording if it was strictly limited to use by the NTSB. I just don't think anybody else should be able to view the video, especially not airlines. The NTSB cares about safety, airlines not so much.


I think that this is overcomplicating things, or at least making it sound more complicated than things already are.

If there needs to be technology in place to stop video being accessed except in relation to an official air accident investigation then great. I would have no problem with pilots retaining their expectation of privacy but it should not be used as an excuse to trump everything else. If there needs to be some kind of cooperation between investigating bodies, nations and manufacturers then fine. Isn't that already the case in terms of physical access to the existing CVR / FDR after an accident, or retrieving data from corrupt storage?

We're in danger of letting any negative outweigh any positive regardless of the individual merits - which is exactly what some people want to happen. It reminds me so much of politics.
 
mxaxai
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:40 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
If there needs to be some kind of cooperation between investigating bodies, nations and manufacturers then fine. Isn't that already the case in terms of physical access to the existing CVR / FDR after an accident, or retrieving data from corrupt storage?

Not really. Technically, any government authority can view the data of any CVR or FDR, assuming they have physical access to it. They need appropriate software and hardware interfaces though, which some countries may not be willing to buy. If the device is damaged after a crash or the memory is corrupted, specialized tools may be necessary which, again, only some countries can afford, or it may require confidential manufacturer knowledge to repair a circuit. After all, these violent crashes are rare.

But fundamentally, there's nothing that would stop for example Indonesia from reading out the FDR and CVR of foreign aircraft. There are also private companies that have the tools to do so, e. g. for maintenance.
 
LTEN11
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:46 am

mxaxai wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
I've never had a problem with cameras where I've worked, simply because I do the job I'm employed to do. We have appearance requirements as well, not exactly a tough thing to follow, look the part do the part. Guess what, all the other things you mentioned, millions of other people around the world deal with everyday as well.

If you're such a perfect infallible worker that nothing on video could ever be used against you, why does your employer feel the need for cameras in the first place?

Aaron747 wrote:
As for the CVR release, like I said, we're not Indonesia. Federal law and employment regulations within the US would pertain to any conditions there, which is the primary concern of the proposed ruling here.

As soon as an aircraft leaves the US, the video would be accessible to people who are not subject to US federal law.


I know, it seems like such a waste doesn't it ? All that investment too keep the premises and the property safe, to help keep everything running smoothly, to assist with accident and incident investigations, when all they had to do was hire around 500 clones of me :D , such a waste :sarcastic:
 
morrisond
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:21 pm

I've skimmed through this thread and here are my thoughts:

IMO - Any information collected by Camera's should only be accessible under the same conditions as the CVR and FDR. The airlines should never have access to this to protect Pilot privacy.

The Camera's could be positioned - one for each pilot position - so that there is a clear view of what the pilots hands are doing - use 4 camera's if you need too.

The extra information gained can help tie certain sounds on the CVR to what the pilots were doing and help identify any other issues that need to be addressed other than the Root cause.

For example on the 1st MAX crash - potentially seen how bad the FO was at trimming and controlling the aircraft. What was the Captain doing while the FO was flying the aircraft into the ground? Were they doing proper handoffs when control was passed?

On the second MAX crash it would have given investigators more information on how much effort the Pilots put in to correcting the mistrim with the manual control wheel - which the pilots only put seconds into.

Did they try it with both hands? Did they extend the helper handle? Did both of them try it at once? We don't know and can't tell from just the CVR what happened.

If they did do all of the above and it still didn't work then a more comprehensive redesign of the MAX trim system might have happened.

Alternatively - if they did not try it everything they could have - all that has happened from the MAX disasters is that the underlying design issues hopefully have been fixed - but some of the contributing factors seem to have been whitewashed and swept under the rug. Have we done all we can do to try and avoid more disasters in the future? Namely increased efforts training Pilots how to manually control aircraft might have been mandated.

The Indonesian Report on Lionair MAX crash did call out some of the Human factors - Captain's potential Flu Like issues, FO - problems controlling a 737 in the sim and seemingly not knowing how to manually trim an aircraft with the thumb switch. More awareness of the poor crew performance by seeing the video could have resulted in the whole Indonesian Training system coming under scrutiny and the Flight 182 crash might have been avoided.

The ET302 report has still not been released as Ethiopia is disagreeing with World regulators on what should be in the final report. Namely Ethiopia doesn't want some of the Pilot issues in the report. In the past Ethiopia has tried to whitewash anything that might call its regulatory actions into question - see ET 409 - calling it lightning - where cockpit video could definitely have helped as well.

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/ ... rash-probe

What is the harm in having Video if it's only under the same conditions as the CVR and FDR and you only need enough memory to record video data for the same length of time ? It can only help make the whole system better/safer.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:13 pm

morrisond wrote:
I've skimmed through this thread and here are my thoughts:

IMO - Any information collected by Camera's should only be accessible under the same conditions as the CVR and FDR. The airlines should never have access to this to protect Pilot privacy.


Just a note - while I agree with many of your points, this stood out. Under US law, employees do not have a basic expectation to privacy with regard to actions taken while at work or while using work equipment.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
morrisond
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I've skimmed through this thread and here are my thoughts:

IMO - Any information collected by Camera's should only be accessible under the same conditions as the CVR and FDR. The airlines should never have access to this to protect Pilot privacy.


Just a note - while I agree with many of your points, this stood out. Under US law, employees do not have a basic expectation to privacy with regard to actions taken while at work or while using work equipment.


Are they allowed to access the CVR whenever they want as well? If they can - what's the real big deal then? They already have enough to determine if anything funny of a non-emergency nature is going on.

If the Camera's just show what is front of the pilot - they can still do what they want to behind the seats.
 
Virtual737
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:31 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Can anybody tell me if simulator sessions are currently recorded and if they are, what sort of system is used ? ie : single camera, multiple cameras and their locations ?


I'm in an A320 sim 2 or 3 times a month. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one camera mounted up high at the back (well behind where the cockpit bulkhead would be on the real A320) although they've never told me about them. I'm often in the sim (drawbridge up, motion on) alone. I'd be amazed if there wasn't video surveillance in there just for that fact alone.

I'll have a closer look next time. One thing I do know is that in the facility I use, they have a strict "no video" recording rule, which I've yet to be able to break. I wanted to live stream my sessions.


Thanks, I would've assumed it would be a valuable training tool, though I can understand them not wanting the "customers" to record their sessions, can't be seen to be flying your aircraft to some remote part of the world and intentionally crashing it.


I brought my next session forward just for you :) Camera in the sim located about a foot behind the aft overhead (not right at the back where I first thought).

https://gyazo.com/8ec41754cd9613b907959791af96ec03
 
KingOrGod
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Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:05 am

Gremlinzzzz wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
You are company time, earning company dime. What is there to fear if you are doing the right thing?


When are you putting a company camera in your office or cubicle?

First job I ever had, had cameras everywhere and a system that tracked each and everything you did on PC to the second.

I have worked in environments where being watched was the norm, I have worked under no supervision and I am absolutely comfortable with it. The value of my work has never been determined by whether I am being watched or not.


Exactly - I have to agree with you. Prima donnas really to a large degree. My work has been video taped and audio recorded. Did I give a crap? No. I wasn't getting a lapdance though, or letting my boy fly, or having a flight attendant... never mind you get the drift...
 
LTEN11
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:11 am

Virtual737 wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

I'm in an A320 sim 2 or 3 times a month. I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one camera mounted up high at the back (well behind where the cockpit bulkhead would be on the real A320) although they've never told me about them. I'm often in the sim (drawbridge up, motion on) alone. I'd be amazed if there wasn't video surveillance in there just for that fact alone.

I'll have a closer look next time. One thing I do know is that in the facility I use, they have a strict "no video" recording rule, which I've yet to be able to break. I wanted to live stream my sessions.


Thanks, I would've assumed it would be a valuable training tool, though I can understand them not wanting the "customers" to record their sessions, can't be seen to be flying your aircraft to some remote part of the world and intentionally crashing it.


I brought my next session forward just for you :) Camera in the sim located about a foot behind the aft overhead (not right at the back where I first thought).

https://gyazo.com/8ec41754cd9613b907959791af96ec03


Thanks, that's a bit bigger than I imagined, but with a wide angled lens you would get a good view of a lot of the action.
 
Eikie
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I've skimmed through this thread and here are my thoughts:

IMO - Any information collected by Camera's should only be accessible under the same conditions as the CVR and FDR. The airlines should never have access to this to protect Pilot privacy.


Just a note - while I agree with many of your points, this stood out. Under US law, employees do not have a basic expectation to privacy with regard to actions taken while at work or while using work equipment.

How is that for breaks?

When flying for 8 hours on a 2 pilot flight, I do take short breaks without leaving the cockpit or even the seat sometimes.

That way I am still there of something happens, but also able to relax for 10 minutes to refocus. Time to read a bit of newspaper for instance or having my meal.

Are breaks regarded under that law as "at work" and is merely sitting in a seat regarded as "using work equipment"?
Are breakrooms and such in offices monitoren?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2637
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: NTSB Renews Calls for Cockpit Video Recorders

Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:54 am

KingOrGod wrote:
Exactly - I have to agree with you. Prima donnas really to a large degree. My work has been video taped and audio recorded. Did I give a crap? No. I wasn't getting a lapdance though, or letting my boy fly, or having a flight attendant... never mind you get the drift...

You have a very twisted image of what a pilot's workday looks like. A vivid imagination could be useful as an aspiring novel author, though.
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