Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Aesma wrote:There are cars on the road with dozens of cameras, don't expect aircraft to stay free of them for long.
acecrackshot wrote:I'm shocked the NTSB can make these demands with a straight face.
FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
FGITD wrote:
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
.
FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
acecrackshot wrote:I'm shocked the NTSB can make these demands with a straight face.
acecrackshot wrote:I'm shocked the NTSB can make these demands with a straight face.
I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
SWADawg wrote:FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
SwissCanuck wrote:SWADawg wrote:FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
What is it used for?: Accident / Crash investigations.
Who has access to the video?: The NTSB or equivalent body.
Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes?: Yes
Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident?: No.
Next?
SwissCanuck wrote:SWADawg wrote:FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
What is it used for?: Accident / Crash investigations.
Who has access to the video?: The NTSB or equivalent body.
Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes?: Yes
Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident?: No.
Next?
SwissCanuck wrote:
What is it used for?: Accident / Crash investigations.
Who has access to the video?: The NTSB or equivalent body.
Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes?: Yes
Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident?: No.
Next?
FLALEFTY wrote:There are a couple of rich guys flying around single-pilot in their Citation and Premier biz jets who have several GoPro's stuck around their cockpits to feed material for their successful YouTube channels. There is also an Envoy 2nd officer who is allowed by the company to do cockpit videos on some Part 91 repositioning flights of their EMB-145's to produce video for his YouTube channel. There are also a host of YouTube cockpit videos allowed by foreign airlines.
SWADawg wrote:You are company time, earning company dime. What is there to fear if you are doing the right thing?Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
seat55a wrote:FLALEFTY wrote:There are a couple of rich guys flying around single-pilot in their Citation and Premier biz jets who have several GoPro's stuck around their cockpits to feed material for their successful YouTube channels. There is also an Envoy 2nd officer who is allowed by the company to do cockpit videos on some Part 91 repositioning flights of their EMB-145's to produce video for his YouTube channel. There are also a host of YouTube cockpit videos allowed by foreign airlines.
Yeah but that content by Greg and Max and Steveo and all those Euro airline advertising videos is consensual. and they generally don't record on revenue flights (Max is technically an employee, he only presents repositioning flights I think).
Regardless of position on the NTSB proposal that's a big difference.
arcticcruiser wrote:FGITD wrote:
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
.
That is exactly the issue. Like CVR recordings that leak out in a lot of places. The day a video recorder is installed in my cockpit, I will start carrying a package of chewing gum in my flightbag.
But I will probably be long retired when/if this happens.
SWADawg wrote:FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
SwissCanuck wrote:SWADawg wrote:FGITD wrote:I have to agree. Why is the cockpit deemed this bastion of pilot privacy, that we dare not video record? What are you guys doing up there that’s so secret?
Provided it’s like a FDR and not accessible unless an investigation requires it, I can’t see an issue.
Meanwhile working on the ground I can’t even so much as walk through a door without the airport knowing my full life’s story, and 4 different cameras watch me fumble with the badge reader.
Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
What is it used for?: Accident / Crash investigations.
Who has access to the video?: The NTSB or equivalent body.
Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes?: Yes
Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident?: No.
Next?
32andBelow wrote:The airlines maintain the systems so they would have access. That’s the main concern by pilot groups
FlyHossD wrote:And that's where you're wrong. There have been examples of recordings being misused before the event even reached reportable levels(to the NTSB, etc.).
Many years ago and at the request of a captain, I acted as his representative at a non-union carrier. To make a long story short, the airline chose to download the CVR for a flight that he'd operated and used that recording in a disciplinary action against him in clear violation of the established policy and protocol. Ultimately, the company chose to terminate him.
However, per the disciplinary policy, he appealed to an arbitrator and the arbitrator stopped the hearing after (only) the company presented it's case. The arbitrator noted the violation of the protocol and then immediately awarded the captain his job (yes, before the captain presented his case). If you know how an arbitration normally works, after the parties present their cases, the arbitrator or arbitrators take a few weeks to consider the information, so the immediate award of the captain's position was a harsh slap to the company.
smartplane wrote:On a different thread, the overall opinion is there's a small chance of the Covid vaccine doing any harm to individuals. Everyone should accept the vaccine for the greater good.
Although only a small chance cockpit video recorders would result in harm to individuals (possible misuse), versus the greater good, and already widely used in other transport industries, not acceptable.
arcticcruiser wrote:The day a video recorder is installed in my cockpit, I will start carrying a package of chewing gum in my flightbag.
SWADawg wrote:Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
hayzel777 wrote:The agency believes the video would have helped investigators determine what exactly went wrong in the LionAir, Atlas, and Ethiopian crashes and the human factors involved. Agency also recommended a recorder in the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash report.
SuseJ772 wrote:Just because they have access, doesn't mean they can do it (or would be able to do it). These concerns can all be addressed via legislation and/or force policy.
SuseJ772 wrote:FlyHossD wrote:And that's where you're wrong. There have been examples of recordings being misused before the event even reached reportable levels(to the NTSB, etc.).
Many years ago and at the request of a captain, I acted as his representative at a non-union carrier. To make a long story short, the airline chose to download the CVR for a flight that he'd operated and used that recording in a disciplinary action against him in clear violation of the established policy and protocol. Ultimately, the company chose to terminate him.
However, per the disciplinary policy, he appealed to an arbitrator and the arbitrator stopped the hearing after (only) the company presented it's case. The arbitrator noted the violation of the protocol and then immediately awarded the captain his job (yes, before the captain presented his case). If you know how an arbitration normally works, after the parties present their cases, the arbitrator or arbitrators take a few weeks to consider the information, so the immediate award of the captain's position was a harsh slap to the company.
Well is sounds like the system worked exactly as it should have. A company tried to do something against the law/policy and the arbitrator prevented it. Same can be applied to video.
zeke wrote:hayzel777 wrote:The agency believes the video would have helped investigators determine what exactly went wrong in the LionAir, Atlas, and Ethiopian crashes and the human factors involved. Agency also recommended a recorder in the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash report.
I find that quite offensive comment to make considering the NTSB is not the agency investigating two of those events.
Commercial airliners are required to have only flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders, commonly called “black boxes”, but the NTSB has long called for cockpit image recorders, as well. Such video would have been extremely helpful in determining flight crew actions in recent crashes in Texas, Indonesia, and Ethiopia.
zeke wrote:hayzel777 wrote:The agency believes the video would have helped investigators determine what exactly went wrong in the LionAir, Atlas, and Ethiopian crashes and the human factors involved. Agency also recommended a recorder in the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash report.
I find that quite offensive comment to make considering the NTSB is not the agency investigating two of those events.SuseJ772 wrote:Just because they have access, doesn't mean they can do it (or would be able to do it). These concerns can all be addressed via legislation and/or force policy.
This is a very myopic viewpoint, outside the US there are not the same workplace protections for employees, there is not the same protections for CVR and FDR data. Even the idea of legislation as you know it in the US does not exist in many parts of the world.
The aircraft investigation process in many parts of the world is a criminal and or military investigation. The NTSB has no jurisdiction outside of the US, and if for example a US carrier had an accident in ICN or NRT, it’s a criminal investigation by the local police, not an aviation safety body. They are not there to promote safety, there are there to convict. The rules that are in the US only apply within the US.
I know airlines today that pay local pilots to come in and listen to the CVR to make demerit payments taken off expat contract pilots, similar happens with FDR data.
This is nothing like a school bus or a classroom teacher in the USA, no one is taking that daily footage, reviewing it, and then being used as the basis of having their pay adjusted down. No one is taking that footage to a different jurisdiction and applying different laws to it.
Antarius wrote:
There are, unfortunately, a lot of people who prefer to enjoy the benefits of society and the greater good but refuse to contribute to it in such a way.
SuseJ772 wrote:FlyHossD wrote:And that's where you're wrong. There have been examples of recordings being misused before the event even reached reportable levels(to the NTSB, etc.).
Many years ago and at the request of a captain, I acted as his representative at a non-union carrier. To make a long story short, the airline chose to download the CVR for a flight that he'd operated and used that recording in a disciplinary action against him in clear violation of the established policy and protocol. Ultimately, the company chose to terminate him.
However, per the disciplinary policy, he appealed to an arbitrator and the arbitrator stopped the hearing after (only) the company presented it's case. The arbitrator noted the violation of the protocol and then immediately awarded the captain his job (yes, before the captain presented his case). If you know how an arbitration normally works, after the parties present their cases, the arbitrator or arbitrators take a few weeks to consider the information, so the immediate award of the captain's position was a harsh slap to the company.
Well is sounds like the system worked exactly as it should have. A company tried to do something against the law/policy and the arbitrator prevented it. Same can be applied to video.
zeke wrote:Antarius wrote:
There are, unfortunately, a lot of people who prefer to enjoy the benefits of society and the greater good but refuse to contribute to it in such a way.
Take for example the Atlas crash, was the 767 grounded, was the airline grounded, where there design changes made to the 767 ?
What exactly is this greater good that you claim would have come from cameras on the flight deck for this accident that the NTSB cited as a justification for their installation?
They know exactly what happened to the aircraft, we know why it crashed. The FDR and CVR gave them that information.
FlyHossD wrote:SuseJ772 wrote:FlyHossD wrote:And that's where you're wrong. There have been examples of recordings being misused before the event even reached reportable levels(to the NTSB, etc.).
Many years ago and at the request of a captain, I acted as his representative at a non-union carrier. To make a long story short, the airline chose to download the CVR for a flight that he'd operated and used that recording in a disciplinary action against him in clear violation of the established policy and protocol. Ultimately, the company chose to terminate him.
However, per the disciplinary policy, he appealed to an arbitrator and the arbitrator stopped the hearing after (only) the company presented it's case. The arbitrator noted the violation of the protocol and then immediately awarded the captain his job (yes, before the captain presented his case). If you know how an arbitration normally works, after the parties present their cases, the arbitrator or arbitrators take a few weeks to consider the information, so the immediate award of the captain's position was a harsh slap to the company.
Well is sounds like the system worked exactly as it should have. A company tried to do something against the law/policy and the arbitrator prevented it. Same can be applied to video.
Not entirely.
First, the company violated their own protocol and policy. The recordings were expressedly for incident and accident investigations - NOT disciplinary actions.
Second and to elaborate, the company not only misused the CVR, they also played the recording to a couple of dozen of line check airmen to try to create support for their use (or misuse) of the CVR and to support their decision to terminate the captain. The crux of the matter wasn't what was said by the captain or first officer, but the sound of the engine. They alleged that the captain used excess power despite no analysis of what power that sound level represented. We specifically requested such an analysis and the company refused.
But again, the arbitrator ruled in favor of the captain over the misuse of the CVR. In the meantime, he and his family went about 10-11 weeks without an income. So no, it's not OK.
Western727 wrote:It's not a matter of if, but when. As stated above it's almost everywhere else. Continuing to advocate against cockpit video recorders is becoming a weaker position as the years go by.
Antarius wrote:This still doesn't mean that a CVR is a bad idea. It means some people abused their power, something that occurs without video or audio recording also. The key takeaway is having good protocols and checks and balances. The CVR is accepted and useful and video should be treated similarly.
The potential for rare abuse should not deter a broader good decision.
32andBelow wrote:SwissCanuck wrote:SWADawg wrote:Well you just addressed the crux of the issue with video in the Cockpit. What is it used for? Who has access to the video? Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes? Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident? Too many questions and not enough evidence to show that video wouldn’t be used to discipline crews for something based on video that was taken while at cruise altitude for example.
What is it used for?: Accident / Crash investigations.
Who has access to the video?: The NTSB or equivalent body.
Does the video erase like the CVR does after about 90 minutes?: Yes
Will said video be used for disciplinary action against a crew outside of an accident?: No.
Next?
The airlines maintain the systems so they would have access. That’s the main concern by pilot groups
GalaxyFlyer wrote:zeke wrote:hayzel777 wrote:The agency believes the video would have helped investigators determine what exactly went wrong in the LionAir, Atlas, and Ethiopian crashes and the human factors involved. Agency also recommended a recorder in the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash report.
I find that quite offensive comment to make considering the NTSB is not the agency investigating two of those events.SuseJ772 wrote:Just because they have access, doesn't mean they can do it (or would be able to do it). These concerns can all be addressed via legislation and/or force policy.
This is a very myopic viewpoint, outside the US there are not the same workplace protections for employees, there is not the same protections for CVR and FDR data. Even the idea of legislation as you know it in the US does not exist in many parts of the world.
The aircraft investigation process in many parts of the world is a criminal and or military investigation. The NTSB has no jurisdiction outside of the US, and if for example a US carrier had an accident in ICN or NRT, it’s a criminal investigation by the local police, not an aviation safety body. They are not there to promote safety, there are there to convict. The rules that are in the US only apply within the US.
I know airlines today that pay local pilots to come in and listen to the CVR to make demerit payments taken off expat contract pilots, similar happens with FDR data.
This is nothing like a school bus or a classroom teacher in the USA, no one is taking that daily footage, reviewing it, and then being used as the basis of having their pay adjusted down. No one is taking that footage to a different jurisdiction and applying different laws to it.
THIS! No accident investigation would have been markedly changed by videos and there are no legal safeguards against police using them against pilots, domestic or international.
hayzel777 wrote:They're just using it as an example.
Antarius wrote:And this is the only crash that's ever happened?
zeke wrote:hayzel777 wrote:They're just using it as an example.
From that quote, a camera in the cockpit would have had zero safety improvement with those Max crashes, it took the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation to uncover the real reason for that design feature to be certified.
The NTSB has failed to produce a business case where cameras would improve safety. Cameras don’t come at zero cost, someone has to design them, certify them, install them, maintain them.
To put this in perspective, how many people have died from shootings in one city say Chicago in the past 5 years, and how many have died airliner accidents ? Does the high coverage of CCTV in Chicago actually improve gun safety ? Are fewer people being shot ? Does CCTV actually stop guns from getting into peoples hands ?