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knope2001
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Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:15 am

The EAS bid for Pierre and Watertown has been awarded to Denver Air Connection (Key Lime) instead of renewing with Skywest. DAC will fly E145's to DEN and also an ATY-PIR trip, pretty much what Skywest does today.

Interesting to see Skywest -- kind of the EAS gold standard who all but has their pick of EAS markets -- lose some. It's not the very first time but it's rare. In this case DAC seriously underbid what Skywest is currently getting -- especially with a discount from DAC for winning both cities -- while Skywest jacked up their bid substantially. Though Skywest had community support and full UA* codesharing, the cost difference was much too large. The DoT doesn't always select the very lowest bid (other factors come into play) but in this case the two-year combined PIR/ATY cost was $17.3m for Skywest but $9.5m for DAC.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0138-0101

Obviously there are lots of unknowns in how quickly and fully travel will recover, and it's possible Skywest was being more conservative and DAC more aggressive in making assumptions on the revenue side. Or maybe Skywest is re-evaluating how they allocate costs to their at-risk EAS flying, or maybe even getting a little cavalier. Skywest has such a big EAS network yet it is a drop in the bucket revenue-wise so they can afford to roll the dice with a high bid and lose a few. At least prior to COVID Skywest's CRJ bids were often surprisingly competitive, occasionally even lower than the small-prop competing bids because of lower frequency and greater projected traffic/revenue.

This just one two-city contract and is barely a ding in Skywest's EAS network, but it will be interesting to see if they will be similarly vulnerable with high bids in the post-Covid world.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:36 am

Kind of unusual for them to go against the community’s wishes also. OO provides a lot of value, being able to fully leverage UA’s huge network with connection protection. DAC can’t provide that even with a codeshare. You are pretty much on your own until you are on board UA’s network.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:42 am

Honestly, Key Lime's less than stellar Part 135 safety record is more problematic.
 
heretothere
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:31 am

Was wondering why this decision was taking so long relative to most EAS renewals. Bad news for ATY/PIR, especially after their pre-OO experiences, but probably good news for taxpayers and the EAS program overall. Difficult to justify that cost difference just for UA’s code.

I imagine OO will be more competitive in other markets going forward. These markets were bid last October after CARES1 expired and with greater uncertainty over the short/medium term.

acecrackshot wrote:
Honestly, Key Lime's less than stellar Part 135 safety record is more problematic.


I believe these will be operated under 121 with their 50 seat ERJs.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:40 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
Kind of unusual for them to go against the community’s wishes also. OO provides a lot of value, being able to fully leverage UA’s huge network with connection protection. DAC can’t provide that even with a codeshare. You are pretty much on your own until you are on board UA’s network.


Wouldn’t be the first time a company overestimated their worth to the consumer. We will see how this goes, hopefully the reliability pitfalls of a smaller operater dog begin to bite.
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alasizon
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:44 am

Spacepope wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Kind of unusual for them to go against the community’s wishes also. OO provides a lot of value, being able to fully leverage UA’s huge network with connection protection. DAC can’t provide that even with a codeshare. You are pretty much on your own until you are on board UA’s network.


Wouldn’t be the first time a company overestimated their worth to the consumer. We will see how this goes, hopefully the reliability pitfalls of a smaller operater dog begin to bite.


Well hopefully they don't have the reliability issues of a small carrier as that just punishes the community and makes it less likely for the market to support its own service.
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RJNUT
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:10 pm

Almost seems like a sacrificial offering to a non-SkyWest operator, lest it be viewed that OO is always a shoe in. But i would have thought PIR would not be that market to take the hit. ATY i can possibly understands. But it does appear DAC current cities have been satisfied with their service levels., Too much "musical chairs" in this program to really build customer loyalty and operational and marketing stability.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:52 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Or maybe Skywest is re-evaluating how they allocate costs to their at-risk EAS flying, or maybe even getting a little cavalier. Skywest has such a big EAS network yet it is a drop in the bucket revenue-wise so they can afford to roll the dice with a high bid and lose a few.


That is the nature of marketing. It's a never-ending test to see how much people will pay. EAS plays out in super-slow speed compared to real-time availability in ~15 coach fare buckets for 'market' routes.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:36 pm

heretothere wrote:

I believe these will be operated under 121 with their 50 seat ERJs.


One wonders why a 121 certificate was issued to a 135 operator with such an abysmal safety record.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:02 pm

From a customer standpoint the only thing that would change is the operator. DAC also operates as a codeshare partner with UA similar to SkyWest, so instead of saying “operated by SkyWest” on the itinerary it will say “operated by DAC”. Passengers can still book tickets to both cities on UA’s website.

In terms of in flight service DAC is much better than SkyWest. It will continue to be a jet, but will be an E145 rather than a CRJ200.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
RJNUT
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:09 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
From a customer standpoint the only thing that would change is the operator. DAC also operates as a codeshare partner with UA similar to SkyWest, so instead of saying “operated by SkyWest” on the itinerary it will say “operated by DAC”. Passengers can still book tickets to both cities on UA’s website.

In terms of in flight service DAC is much better than SkyWest. It will continue to be a jet, but will be an E145 rather than a CRJ200.


Not so. not a code share. It is only an interline ticketing and baggage agreement. In fact you cant buy into UA's international route network with this arrangement, only domestic US. So it is a step down from a marketing standpoint.
 
atrude777
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:55 pm

SkyWest also lost a current contract-Quincy to Cape Air in the 2020 Contracts.

Alex
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SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:07 pm

RJNUT wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
From a customer standpoint the only thing that would change is the operator. DAC also operates as a codeshare partner with UA similar to SkyWest, so instead of saying “operated by SkyWest” on the itinerary it will say “operated by DAC”. Passengers can still book tickets to both cities on UA’s website.

In terms of in flight service DAC is much better than SkyWest. It will continue to be a jet, but will be an E145 rather than a CRJ200.


Not so. not a code share. It is only an interline ticketing and baggage agreement. In fact you cant buy into UA's international route network with this arrangement, only domestic US. So it is a step down from a marketing standpoint.


Ooohh, I apologize then. I thought I’ve seen UA flight numbers at their gate in DEN.

DAC also operates in a very secluded part of the terminal at DEN which will be a huge inconvenience to UA passengers. Don’t know where they’ll operate at ORD yet, the E145 is too big for the ground boarding gates.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
MO11
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:32 pm

Note that on Skywest's bid, the ATY-DEN flight was nonstop. On the Key Lime bid, it's ORD-ATY-PIR-DEN. That basically reduces the expense by one roundtrip/day.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:41 pm

atrude777 wrote:
SkyWest also lost a current contract-Quincy to Cape Air in the 2020 Contracts.

Alex


Indeed they did, though Quincy didn't back Skywest in the bidding. They wanted to have both ORD and STL links -- I think they found some of their passenger base who preferred to connect through St Louis were simply driving to STL rather than accepting the ORD alternative. They also were not thrilled about reliability into ORD, though it seems only airports trying to get something other than UA* to ORD (UIN and CMX which wants DL*) make comments about O'Hare delay issues; most everybody who wants/likes UA* to ORD for the EAS flying doesn't mention it.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:12 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
heretothere wrote:

I believe these will be operated under 121 with their 50 seat ERJs.


One wonders why a 121 certificate was issued to a 135 operator with such an abysmal safety record.


This is your second post clucking about their safety record. Maybe you should post something factual with links, otherwise it looks like you have a personal vendetta.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:24 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
heretothere wrote:

I believe these will be operated under 121 with their 50 seat ERJs.


One wonders why a 121 certificate was issued to a 135 operator with such an abysmal safety record.


This is your second post clucking about their safety record. Maybe you should post something factual with links, otherwise it looks like you have a personal vendetta.


Well, I'm not your Google, but 30 seconds with Google gives us...

https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/10393705/cargo-plane-in-nearhit-in-denver-has-had-6-crashes-7-deaths-since-2000
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:28 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
heretothere wrote:

I believe these will be operated under 121 with their 50 seat ERJs.


One wonders why a 121 certificate was issued to a 135 operator with such an abysmal safety record.


This is your second post clucking about their safety record. Maybe you should post something factual with links, otherwise it looks like you have a personal vendetta.


Further, as a presumptive CFI what would be your assessment of a training program with multiple findings of pilot error?

I'm not the smartest gal in the wardroom, but one wonders when you compare the Key Lime record to other EAS type/135 certificate holders like Cape, Great Lakes, or Seaport.
 
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knope2001
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:28 pm

MO11 wrote:
Note that on Skywest's bid, the ATY-DEN flight was nonstop. On the Key Lime bid, it's ORD-ATY-PIR-DEN. That basically reduces the expense by one roundtrip/day.


That's a really good point. They can do it all with a single aircraft then where Skywest's current setup uses portions of two aircraft since PIR and ATY both get 2 nonstops to their hubs.
 
FATFlyer
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:37 pm

Boutique Air had submitted $0 subsidy bids for these two airports last year along with $0 subsidy proposals for JLN, SUX and WYS.

But Boutique withdrew its proposals in February due to what it called a lack of DOT responsiveness. Boutique in its withdrawal letter also questioned whether the DOT is interested at all in $0 subsidy proposals.

http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0099
http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0086
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FX1816
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:41 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:

One wonders why a 121 certificate was issued to a 135 operator with such an abysmal safety record.


This is your second post clucking about their safety record. Maybe you should post something factual with links, otherwise it looks like you have a personal vendetta.


Well, I'm not your Google, but 30 seconds with Google gives us...

https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/10393705/cargo-plane-in-nearhit-in-denver-has-had-6-crashes-7-deaths-since-2000


Look I have no dog in this fight but this is incredibly disingenuous. The article you linked is over 14 years old now. Take it for what it is worth but according to Wikipedia, Key Lime has only had 3 incidents in the past 14 years. Yes that is still high for their size operation but read what caused them:

December 30, 2014 – A Key Lime Air Cessna 404 Titan, registration N404MG, operating as Flight LYM182, lost one of its two engines shortly after takeoff from Centennial Airport (KAPA), Englewood, Colorado. Operating on one engine, the pilot was unable to successfully return to the airport. The airplane was destroyed by the impact and partially consumed by the post-impact fire. The sole pilot on board the aircraft received fatal injuries. The probable cause could not be determined during the investigation, though the pilot did not properly secure the failed engine - making it more difficult to continue flying.[5]

January 21, 2015 – A Key Lime Air Piper PA-31 flying cargo for UPS from Denver International Airport to Colby, Kansas, crashed while attempting to make an emergency landing at Goodland Municipal Airport after sustaining an engine failure. The plane struck power lines before crashing in a field. The sole pilot survived without serious injuries. The aircraft sustained serious damage.[6][7]

December 5, 2016 - A Key Lime Air Fairchild Swearingen SA-227DC Metro (twin-turboprop), operating as Flight LYM308, crashed a little after 10:00 P.M. in Camilla, GA. The flight departed from Panama City, Fl (Northwest Florida Beaches, KECP) and was en route to Albany, Ga.(KABY, Southwest Georgia Regional), there were heavy rains and storms in the area at the time of the crash. The sole occupant, the pilot, received fatal injuries.[8]

This is not something that would keep me from flying on them. I mean I guess USAir had a horrible safety record in the late 1980's early 1990's so that would make American an unsafe airline to fly on?

:roll: :stirthepot:
 
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adamblang
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:52 pm

RJNUT wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
From a customer standpoint the only thing that would change is the operator. DAC also operates as a codeshare partner with UA similar to SkyWest, so instead of saying “operated by SkyWest” on the itinerary it will say “operated by DAC”. Passengers can still book tickets to both cities on UA’s website.

In terms of in flight service DAC is much better than SkyWest. It will continue to be a jet, but will be an E145 rather than a CRJ200.


Not so. not a code share. It is only an interline ticketing and baggage agreement. In fact you cant buy into UA's international route network with this arrangement, only domestic US. So it is a step down from a marketing standpoint.

Additionally, the SkyWest EAS flights with United aren't just a codeshare – SkyWest is operating as United Express on these routes. So you get your United award earnings, Premier benefits, digital tools, inflight service, customer protection, and all that as if it were United.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:56 pm

FX1816 wrote:


Look I have no dog in this fight but this is incredibly disingenuous. The article you linked is over 14 years old now. Take it for what it is worth but according to Wikipedia, Key Lime has only had 3 incidents in the past 14 years. Yes that is still high for their size operation but read what caused them:

December 30, 2014 – A Key Lime Air Cessna 404 Titan, registration N404MG, operating as Flight LYM182, lost one of its two engines shortly after takeoff from Centennial Airport (KAPA), Englewood, Colorado. Operating on one engine, the pilot was unable to successfully return to the airport. The airplane was destroyed by the impact and partially consumed by the post-impact fire. The sole pilot on board the aircraft received fatal injuries. The probable cause could not be determined during the investigation, though the pilot did not properly secure the failed engine - making it more difficult to continue flying.[5]

January 21, 2015 – A Key Lime Air Piper PA-31 flying cargo for UPS from Denver International Airport to Colby, Kansas, crashed while attempting to make an emergency landing at Goodland Municipal Airport after sustaining an engine failure. The plane struck power lines before crashing in a field. The sole pilot survived without serious injuries. The aircraft sustained serious damage.[6][7]

December 5, 2016 - A Key Lime Air Fairchild Swearingen SA-227DC Metro (twin-turboprop), operating as Flight LYM308, crashed a little after 10:00 P.M. in Camilla, GA. The flight departed from Panama City, Fl (Northwest Florida Beaches, KECP) and was en route to Albany, Ga.(KABY, Southwest Georgia Regional), there were heavy rains and storms in the area at the time of the crash. The sole occupant, the pilot, received fatal injuries.[8]

This is not something that would keep me from flying on them. I mean I guess USAir had a horrible safety record in the late 1980's early 1990's so that would make American an unsafe airline to fly on?

:roll: :stirthepot:


So your contention is that while this is a high number of accidents, the conditions of pilot selection, training and maintenance are beyond the reasonable control of the company and are just consistent with an operation like this?

Why would a FSDO, seeing operational control like this over the course of two decades, really want to issue a 121 certificate?
 
FX1816
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:08 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
FX1816 wrote:


Look I have no dog in this fight but this is incredibly disingenuous. The article you linked is over 14 years old now. Take it for what it is worth but according to Wikipedia, Key Lime has only had 3 incidents in the past 14 years. Yes that is still high for their size operation but read what caused them:

December 30, 2014 – A Key Lime Air Cessna 404 Titan, registration N404MG, operating as Flight LYM182, lost one of its two engines shortly after takeoff from Centennial Airport (KAPA), Englewood, Colorado. Operating on one engine, the pilot was unable to successfully return to the airport. The airplane was destroyed by the impact and partially consumed by the post-impact fire. The sole pilot on board the aircraft received fatal injuries. The probable cause could not be determined during the investigation, though the pilot did not properly secure the failed engine - making it more difficult to continue flying.[5]

January 21, 2015 – A Key Lime Air Piper PA-31 flying cargo for UPS from Denver International Airport to Colby, Kansas, crashed while attempting to make an emergency landing at Goodland Municipal Airport after sustaining an engine failure. The plane struck power lines before crashing in a field. The sole pilot survived without serious injuries. The aircraft sustained serious damage.[6][7]

December 5, 2016 - A Key Lime Air Fairchild Swearingen SA-227DC Metro (twin-turboprop), operating as Flight LYM308, crashed a little after 10:00 P.M. in Camilla, GA. The flight departed from Panama City, Fl (Northwest Florida Beaches, KECP) and was en route to Albany, Ga.(KABY, Southwest Georgia Regional), there were heavy rains and storms in the area at the time of the crash. The sole occupant, the pilot, received fatal injuries.[8]

This is not something that would keep me from flying on them. I mean I guess USAir had a horrible safety record in the late 1980's early 1990's so that would make American an unsafe airline to fly on?

:roll: :stirthepot:


So your contention is that while this is a high number of accidents, the conditions of pilot selection, training and maintenance are beyond the reasonable control of the company and are just consistent with an operation like this?

Why would a FSDO, seeing operational control like this over the course of two decades, really want to issue a 121 certificate?


Nice deflection, I pointed out that the article you used is crap and this is what you come up with. I'm not starting a pissing match with a child over this, just sit in the corner and complain about it. The article you used is garbage and you didn't answer my question as to whether or not American Airlines is safe knowing that a part of their history, USAir, had an abysmal record in the 1980's and 90's. For that matter Delta had two VERY serious incidents at DFW in 1985 and 1988, I'm going to avoid flying them from now on. Oh and for the past 2 decades Key Lime has had a decent record: Decade #1 2011-2020, Decad #9 2021-PRESENT.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:49 pm

FX1816 wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
FX1816 wrote:


Look I have no dog in this fight but this is incredibly disingenuous. The article you linked is over 14 years old now. Take it for what it is worth but according to Wikipedia, Key Lime has only had 3 incidents in the past 14 years. Yes that is still high for their size operation but read what caused them:

December 30, 2014 – A Key Lime Air Cessna 404 Titan, registration N404MG, operating as Flight LYM182, lost one of its two engines shortly after takeoff from Centennial Airport (KAPA), Englewood, Colorado. Operating on one engine, the pilot was unable to successfully return to the airport. The airplane was destroyed by the impact and partially consumed by the post-impact fire. The sole pilot on board the aircraft received fatal injuries. The probable cause could not be determined during the investigation, though the pilot did not properly secure the failed engine - making it more difficult to continue flying.[5]

January 21, 2015 – A Key Lime Air Piper PA-31 flying cargo for UPS from Denver International Airport to Colby, Kansas, crashed while attempting to make an emergency landing at Goodland Municipal Airport after sustaining an engine failure. The plane struck power lines before crashing in a field. The sole pilot survived without serious injuries. The aircraft sustained serious damage.[6][7]

December 5, 2016 - A Key Lime Air Fairchild Swearingen SA-227DC Metro (twin-turboprop), operating as Flight LYM308, crashed a little after 10:00 P.M. in Camilla, GA. The flight departed from Panama City, Fl (Northwest Florida Beaches, KECP) and was en route to Albany, Ga.(KABY, Southwest Georgia Regional), there were heavy rains and storms in the area at the time of the crash. The sole occupant, the pilot, received fatal injuries.[8]

This is not something that would keep me from flying on them. I mean I guess USAir had a horrible safety record in the late 1980's early 1990's so that would make American an unsafe airline to fly on?

:roll: :stirthepot:


So your contention is that while this is a high number of accidents, the conditions of pilot selection, training and maintenance are beyond the reasonable control of the company and are just consistent with an operation like this?

Why would a FSDO, seeing operational control like this over the course of two decades, really want to issue a 121 certificate?


Nice deflection, I pointed out that the article you used is crap and this is what you come up with. I'm not starting a pissing match with a child over this, just sit in the corner and complain about it. The article you used is garbage and you didn't answer my question as to whether or not American Airlines is safe knowing that a part of their history, USAir, had an abysmal record in the 1980's and 90's. For that matter Delta had two VERY serious incidents at DFW in 1985 and 1988, I'm going to avoid flying them from now on. Oh and for the past 2 decades Key Lime has had a decent record: Decade #1 2011-2020, Decad #9 2021-PRESENT.


It doesn't change the fact that Key Lime is a slime ball operator, in how they've always treated their employees and always will.
From my cold, dead hands
 
hayzel777
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:56 pm

Looks like the DOT got away with giving to DAC over OO, despite one of the criteria being that the local market preference be weighed substantially, by using a provision that was included in the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021. Government has to be stingy in other parts while doling out $2k/person subsidies.

What a joke to ignore the wishes of Pierre and Watertown. Let's see how well DAC can connect pax onward beyond DEN/ORD.
 
FX1816
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:07 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:

So your contention is that while this is a high number of accidents, the conditions of pilot selection, training and maintenance are beyond the reasonable control of the company and are just consistent with an operation like this?

Why would a FSDO, seeing operational control like this over the course of two decades, really want to issue a 121 certificate?


Nice deflection, I pointed out that the article you used is crap and this is what you come up with. I'm not starting a pissing match with a child over this, just sit in the corner and complain about it. The article you used is garbage and you didn't answer my question as to whether or not American Airlines is safe knowing that a part of their history, USAir, had an abysmal record in the 1980's and 90's. For that matter Delta had two VERY serious incidents at DFW in 1985 and 1988, I'm going to avoid flying them from now on. Oh and for the past 2 decades Key Lime has had a decent record: Decade #1 2011-2020, Decad #9 2021-PRESENT.


It doesn't change the fact that Key Lime is a slime ball operator, in how they've always treated their employees and always will.


No it doesn't change that at all but my point is about quoting 14 plus year old stories to prove a point. My buddy flew for Key Lime, PA31 and SW4, for over a year and it wasn't a great place to work.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:37 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
Looks like the DOT got away with giving to DAC over OO, despite one of the criteria being that the local market preference be weighed substantially, by using a provision that was included in the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021. Government has to be stingy in other parts while doling out $2k/person subsidies.

What a joke to ignore the wishes of Pierre and Watertown. Let's see how well DAC can connect pax onward beyond DEN/ORD.


It’s not really a joke. 98% of the time they side with the communities, but with a subsidy difference of this much there was no contest. SkyWest’s bid was at least $4,000,000 per community per year ($8,000,000 a year total) where as DAC’s bid was around $4,500,000 per year for the two communities.

Usually I would side with the communities (although it doesn’t matter what I say, lol). But with a subsidy difference of that much per-year it is an enormous savings in taxes to the people that live there.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
RJNUT
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:50 pm

i have already alerted the PIR airport manager about some of the downgraded connectivity issues and he was quite responsive and plans to address some of these issues head on. PIR has been screwed around for decades and the OO service seemed to finally stabilize things. This is nuttiness but at least the didn't get Boutique or some 121 nine-seat operation. ( which do have their place)
 
32andBelow
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:53 pm

They should start grouping the EAS program into skewer swaths. Why not let sky west bid 100m for 25 routes or something?

Allowing people to operate these routes with no codeshares is pointless and unproductive
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:55 pm

RJNUT wrote:
i have already alerted the PIR airport manager about some of the downgraded connectivity issues and he was quite responsive and plans to address some of these issues head on. PIR has been screwed around for decades and the OO service seemed to finally stabilize things. This is nuttiness but at least the didn't get Boutique or some 121 nine-seat operation. ( which do have their place)


Those two cities have always had bad luck withEAS carriers. First they had Great Lakes, then the doomed California Pacific. They finally got connectivity with UA and SkyWest, DAC is just a step back a little bit. SkyWest will definitely learn from this and bid much lower next time
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
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usxguy
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:57 pm

The problems with OO at ORD *or any major hub, really* is that when the weather goes to hell, mama United/American/Delta go into slash-n-trash schedule mode. The smaller markets get their flights cut first. So that's why Quincy and other EAS markets have reliability issues. United would rather their 777 from LAX get in to ORD than 20 passengers on a CRJ from Paducah if given the choice.

Airlines have been doing this for 20+ years.
xx
 
RJNUT
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:03 pm

usxguy wrote:
The problems with OO at ORD *or any major hub, really* is that when the weather goes to hell, mama United/American/Delta go into slash-n-trash schedule mode. The smaller markets get their flights cut first. So that's why Quincy and other EAS markets have reliability issues. United would rather their 777 from LAX get in to ORD than 20 passengers on a CRJ from Paducah if given the choice.

Airlines have been doing this for 20+ years.


Hopefully once the final RW configuration at O'Hare is in place the flow control will be better managed although it won't help with the summer T-Storms. ORD must have the most T-Storms in the country next to Tampa in the summer time!
 
drdisque
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:06 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Don’t know where they’ll operate at ORD yet, the E145 is too big for the ground boarding gates.


Aerodynamics inc. did operate their E-145 from the ground board gate at the end of L when they flew ORD-YNG for a month a few years ago. Although that was back when I believe only Air Choice one used that gate. Now they're sharing it with Boutique and Cape Air. Four carriers on a single gate would be pretty intense, even if Air Choice One's schedule is way down from their peak.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:11 pm

usxguy wrote:
The problems with OO at ORD *or any major hub, really* is that when the weather goes to hell, mama United/American/Delta go into slash-n-trash schedule mode. The smaller markets get their flights cut first. So that's why Quincy and other EAS markets have reliability issues. United would rather their 777 from LAX get in to ORD than 20 passengers on a CRJ from Paducah if given the choice.

Airlines have been doing this for 20+ years.

Yah but those passengers are protected by the major marketing airline. The passengers from no name air carrier also get delayed. Many times with a many hour atc hold. And when they finally land miss their next flight. And the big airline tells them to pound sand.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:01 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:

One wonders why a 121 certificate was issued to a 135 operator with such an abysmal safety record.


This is your second post clucking about their safety record. Maybe you should post something factual with links, otherwise it looks like you have a personal vendetta.


Further, as a presumptive CFI what would be your assessment of a training program with multiple findings of pilot error?

I'm not the smartest gal in the wardroom, but one wonders when you compare the Key Lime record to other EAS type/135 certificate holders like Cape, Great Lakes, or Seaport.


I am by no means defending Key Lime or any other fleabag operator. But it is your responsibility to back up claims in a forum with some sort of supporting evidence. If you have such grave concerns about Key Lime, you should skip posting on a forum and go straight to the FAA. I’m sure they will greatly appreciate you informing them of their lapse in judgment.
That being said, I only wish the best for Key Lime...the last thing our industry needs right now is any more reasons for people to stop flying.
 
hayzel777
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:17 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Looks like the DOT got away with giving to DAC over OO, despite one of the criteria being that the local market preference be weighed substantially, by using a provision that was included in the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021. Government has to be stingy in other parts while doling out $2k/person subsidies.

What a joke to ignore the wishes of Pierre and Watertown. Let's see how well DAC can connect pax onward beyond DEN/ORD.


It’s not really a joke. 98% of the time they side with the communities, but with a subsidy difference of this much there was no contest. SkyWest’s bid was at least $4,000,000 per community per year ($8,000,000 a year total) where as DAC’s bid was around $4,500,000 per year for the two communities.

Usually I would side with the communities (although it doesn’t matter what I say, lol). But with a subsidy difference of that much per-year it is an enormous savings in taxes to the people that live there.

From the DOT document, the five criteria in determining EAS awards is as follows:
(A) service reliability of the applicant air carrier; (B) the existence of contractual and marketing arrangements with a larger air carrier at the hub; (C) the existence of interline arrangements with a larger air carrier at the hub; (D) the preferences of the actual and potential users of the EAS, giving substantial weight to the views of the elected officials representing
those users; and (E) whether the air carrier has included a plan in its proposal to market the EAS. In addition, Section 41732(b)(1)(A) requires basic EAS to include at least two daily round trips six days a week for an eligible place not in Alaska.


Only as of December 27, 2020, per the Consolidated Appropriations for 2021, did this clause come into play:
Finally, the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2021, Pub. L. No. 116-260 (December 27, 2020), provides that the Department, in determining between or among carriers competing to provide service to a community, may consider the relative subsidy requirements of the applicant air carriers


It is a joke that the DOT seems to be so stingy yet the rest of the government does not, especially with things like COVID relief. If I were OO, I would hire lobbyists to strike that clause in the next appropriations. The DOT even had a zero-subsidy bid from Boutique, but they withdrew because of the unresponsiveness/slowrolling by the department. Boutique made their position very clear in the withdrawal letter.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0138-0099

Finally, it's more than the people of Pierre and Watertown providing the subsidy. The EAS funds come from the DOT and federal appropriations.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:28 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
Boutique Air had submitted $0 subsidy bids for these two airports last year along with $0 subsidy proposals for JLN, SUX and WYS.

But Boutique withdrew its proposals in February due to what it called a lack of DOT responsiveness. Boutique in its withdrawal letter also questioned whether the DOT is interested at all in $0 subsidy proposals.

http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0099
http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0086


Withdrawing a proposal just shows pique, not operational competence or management commitment.
 
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JBo
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:54 pm

knope2001 wrote:
At least prior to COVID Skywest's CRJ bids were often surprisingly competitive, occasionally even lower than the small-prop competing bids because of lower frequency and greater projected traffic/revenue.


That was exactly how SkyWest won the contracts for MKG and CMX back in 2009 when Mesaba wanted to go on EAS for those routes.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:55 pm

No matter how everyone in the community (a.net and actual community) feels about it, DAC still has contract. Although I do have a feeling this person on YouTube is going to fly DEN-ATY-ORD when it begins...

https://youtube.com/c/GerardiAviationPh ... roductions

He/she seems to do a lot of stuff with EAS cities and has even flown IAD-ORD with a connection in a small EAS city in northern New York
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:38 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Yah but those passengers are protected by the major marketing airline. The passengers from no name air carrier also get delayed. Many times with a many hour atc hold. And when they finally land miss their next flight. And the big airline tells them to pound sand.

I agree with 32andBelow, this is the main advantage of having flights operated under the "Express" banner of a major carrier vs. a stand alone regional airline. However, provided the flights are booked on a single continuous itinerary, most airlines will be accommodating. If they're booked as completely separate tickets, good luck.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:57 am

knope2001 wrote:
The EAS bid for Pierre and Watertown has been awarded to Denver Air Connection (Key Lime) instead of renewing with Skywest. DAC will fly E145's to DEN and also an ATY-PIR trip, pretty much what Skywest does today.

Interesting to see Skywest -- kind of the EAS gold standard who all but has their pick of EAS markets -- lose some. It's not the very first time but it's rare. In this case DAC seriously underbid what Skywest is currently getting -- especially with a discount from DAC for winning both cities -- while Skywest jacked up their bid substantially. Though Skywest had community support and full UA* codesharing, the cost difference was much too large. The DoT doesn't always select the very lowest bid (other factors come into play) but in this case the two-year combined PIR/ATY cost was $17.3m for Skywest but $9.5m for DAC.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0138-0101

Obviously there are lots of unknowns in how quickly and fully travel will recover, and it's possible Skywest was being more conservative and DAC more aggressive in making assumptions on the revenue side. Or maybe Skywest is re-evaluating how they allocate costs to their at-risk EAS flying, or maybe even getting a little cavalier. Skywest has such a big EAS network yet it is a drop in the bucket revenue-wise so they can afford to roll the dice with a high bid and lose a few. At least prior to COVID Skywest's CRJ bids were often surprisingly competitive, occasionally even lower than the small-prop competing bids because of lower frequency and greater projected traffic/revenue.

This just one two-city contract and is barely a ding in Skywest's EAS network, but it will be interesting to see if they will be similarly vulnerable with high bids in the post-Covid world.


Knope put it well, OO was assuming their connection with UA would give them access to mucho taxpayer dollars without a question. Their bid of $17 million + was outrageously high, especially compared to what the current subsidy is providing to them. I think the DOT called the question and is quietly saying to them to be more realistic going forward. DAC has done a pretty good job with their EAS contracts thus far; and I do not think PIR and ATY will be disappointed.

Frontier 14
 
sprxUSA
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:50 am

If OO had won out, pax should have been able to fly for $1 LOL.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
TexasAirCorp
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:06 am

FATFlyer wrote:
Boutique Air had submitted $0 subsidy bids for these two airports last year along with $0 subsidy proposals for JLN, SUX and WYS.

But Boutique withdrew its proposals in February due to what it called a lack of DOT responsiveness. Boutique in its withdrawal letter also questioned whether the DOT is interested at all in $0 subsidy proposals.

http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0099
http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0086


4B seems to be quite often snubbed due to poor reliability and crew shortages, especially in colder areas. They've lost quite a few contracts in northern states due to airport authorities complaining (TVF and JST come to mind) that the PC-12s are unreliable and their anti-ice systems are pretty poor, and that 4B rarely has enough flight/maintenance crews to keep operations going. Guess that's why they're putting in $0 subsidy bids.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:28 pm

knope2001 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
SkyWest also lost a current contract-Quincy to Cape Air in the 2020 Contracts.

Alex


Indeed they did, though Quincy didn't back Skywest in the bidding. They wanted to have both ORD and STL links -- I think they found some of their passenger base who preferred to connect through St Louis were simply driving to STL rather than accepting the ORD alternative. They also were not thrilled about reliability into ORD, though it seems only airports trying to get something other than UA* to ORD (UIN and CMX which wants DL*) make comments about O'Hare delay issues; most everybody who wants/likes UA* to ORD for the EAS flying doesn't mention it.

The closer in cities to ORD are the first ones delayed or canceled when the delay programs come out, to make room for the longer and larger flights. When Mother United calls Skywest Operations and says “Cancel 40 this afternoon and evening, we need the slots.”, they are going to cut places like UIN or DEC first, rather than something like ROC or DSM.
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1966
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:13 pm

Watertown mayor has been reported that she is going to DOT asking a potential reversal
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 747
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Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:49 pm

TexasAirCorp wrote:
FATFlyer wrote:
Boutique Air had submitted $0 subsidy bids for these two airports last year along with $0 subsidy proposals for JLN, SUX and WYS.

But Boutique withdrew its proposals in February due to what it called a lack of DOT responsiveness. Boutique in its withdrawal letter also questioned whether the DOT is interested at all in $0 subsidy proposals.

http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0099
http://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2011-0138-0086


4B seems to be quite often snubbed due to poor reliability and crew shortages, especially in colder areas. They've lost quite a few contracts in northern states due to airport authorities complaining (TVF and JST come to mind) that the PC-12s are unreliable and their anti-ice systems are pretty poor, and that 4B rarely has enough flight/maintenance crews to keep operations going. Guess that's why they're putting in $0 subsidy bids.


In places like TVF this is partially true, but it’s more so the fact that cities would rather have a jet than a prop. These cities fall for “shiny jet syndrome”, they don’t care the cost as long as they get jets. It’s not only BTQ cities that have lost to SkyWest this year, FOD and MCW (formally served by ACO) both don’t really even need the service as the flights have been practically empty since they started. But the communities don’t really care because it is on a jet.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1966
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:15 pm

to be fair, ACO in FOD and MCW offered Zero connectivity which has become more or less a disqualifier from DOT;s viewpoint.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:57 pm

drdisque wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Don’t know where they’ll operate at ORD yet, the E145 is too big for the ground boarding gates.


Aerodynamics inc. did operate their E-145 from the ground board gate at the end of L when they flew ORD-YNG for a month a few years ago. Although that was back when I believe only Air Choice one used that gate. Now they're sharing it with Boutique and Cape Air. Four carriers on a single gate would be pretty intense, even if Air Choice One's schedule is way down from their peak.


I'm hearing ORD wasn't even aware of the awarding. The current EAS area is too small for this carrier to be allocated in. None of the current common use gates at ORD can handle the E145, so this mean DAC will need to approach one of the preferential carriers and as for a voluntary accommodation or expect to plan for an outside operation at Terminal 5.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1465
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Denver Air Connection wins EAS away from Skywest for PIR and ATY

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:33 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Don’t know where they’ll operate at ORD yet, the E145 is too big for the ground boarding gates.


Aerodynamics inc. did operate their E-145 from the ground board gate at the end of L when they flew ORD-YNG for a month a few years ago. Although that was back when I believe only Air Choice one used that gate. Now they're sharing it with Boutique and Cape Air. Four carriers on a single gate would be pretty intense, even if Air Choice One's schedule is way down from their peak.


I'm hearing ORD wasn't even aware of the awarding. The current EAS area is too small for this carrier to be allocated in. None of the current common use gates at ORD can handle the E145, so this mean DAC will need to approach one of the preferential carriers and as for a voluntary accommodation or expect to plan for an outside operation at Terminal 5.


AC can obviously accommodate them right now, but that's probably not a long-term solution.

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