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MLIAA
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oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:42 pm

With the demise of AirBerlin, oneworld now has a large gap between BA, IB, and EI in the west, and FI and S7 in the east. This makes service to cities like DRS and BEG difficult to reach on oneworld carriers, and complicates intra-European connections.

How can oneworld strengthen its position in Central Europe? There has been talk on here about poaching a dissatisfied member of another alliance, namely LOT. Or possibly poaching a cash-strapped airline like CSA or Austrian by IAG.

Would Air Serbia be a good candidate?

Or does oneworld continue on and accept this weak spot in the network?
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chonetsao
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:00 pm

You don't need to be everywhere in the world.

For your reference, in 2019, the annual passenger numbers in following central european airports are:
BUD---16.17 million
PRG---17.80 million
BEG-----6.16 million
DRS----1.60 million
SOF----7.11 million
WAW---18.86 million

Add them together it is shy of 68 million. This is even less than London alone.

Except Dresden, several airports have London as the top destination
BUD--0.57 million (number 2 following Frankfurt)
SOF--0.46 million
WAW--1.02 million

When London is not the top destinations, FRA, CDG and AMS are dominating the top destinations from above airports.

What does that tell you?
1, The region is very small in passenger numbers. None of the airports listed with the exception of WAW can make to top 30 US airport by total passenger numbers.
2, The region is well connected to alliance hubs without the need to have an alliance member.

So no, there is not going to be new global alliance members from this region in foreseeable future.
 
jplatts
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:08 pm

BA could add nonstop service out of LHR to additional Central European destinations once demand for global air travel recovers with the connections that BA would be able to offer to destinations in the UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean through LHR.
 
rutankrd
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:17 pm

jplatts wrote:
BA could add nonstop service out of LHR to additional Central European destinations once demand for global air travel recovers with the connections that BA would be able to offer to destinations in the UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean through LHR.


Frankly going via Heathrow to the likes of Dresden is a mare and more so post Brexit to be honest.

I expect IAG as a group to want to divert inter EU connections elsewhere Madrid, and Dublin are perfect for entry points imho.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:39 pm

rutankrd wrote:
jplatts wrote:
BA could add nonstop service out of LHR to additional Central European destinations once demand for global air travel recovers with the connections that BA would be able to offer to destinations in the UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean through LHR.


Frankly going via Heathrow to the likes of Dresden is a mare and more so post Brexit to be honest.

I expect IAG as a group to want to divert inter EU connections elsewhere Madrid, and Dublin are perfect for entry points imho.


Why does Brexit have any impact on transferring at LHR? It makes no difference. The UK was always outside of Schengen anyway. London will always be a global city - evident from carriers still adding new routes even now Aegean for example and Turkish (although not in EU). It’s also not much of a problem transferring at LHR now. It has two award winning terminals - T5 and T2. Easily nicer than the huge walks at FRA or messing around at CDG.

LOT would be an ideal partner for Oneworld as Lufthansa doesn’t seem to let them be a full partner. But they share a frequent flyer Programme so any divorce won’t be fun.

Air Baltic would be a good add but is similar in position to Finnair so doesn’t help southern Eastern Europe.
 
konrad
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:49 pm

Frankly, IAG missed the opportunity to take Swiss aboard at the time when they were struggling and looking for a new partnership. LOT and Austrian do not have a high yield customer base to merit OW interest. You do not need to fly everywhere to make money, not to any low yielding market.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:00 pm

In reality AB never have strong relationship with other OW member
 
MLIAA
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:01 pm

konrad wrote:
LOT and Austrian do not have a high yield customer base to merit OW interest.


And yet, the likes of Royal Air Maroc and Sri Lankan caught the eyes of oneworld.

I think geography plays a bigger role than you might think, especially in a neglected area that is dominated by Star.
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rutankrd
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:09 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
jplatts wrote:
BA could add nonstop service out of LHR to additional Central European destinations once demand for global air travel recovers with the connections that BA would be able to offer to destinations in the UK, Ireland, US, Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean through LHR.


Frankly going via Heathrow to the likes of Dresden is a mare and more so post Brexit to be honest.

I expect IAG as a group to want to divert inter EU connections elsewhere Madrid, and Dublin are perfect for entry points imho.


Why does Brexit have any impact on transferring at LHR? It makes no difference. The UK was always outside of Schengen anyway. London will always be a global city - evident from carriers still adding new routes even now Aegean for example and Turkish (although not in EU). It’s also not much of a problem transferring at LHR now. It has two award winning terminals - T5 and T2. Easily nicer than the huge walks at FRA or messing around at CDG.

LOT would be an ideal partner for Oneworld as Lufthansa doesn’t seem to let them be a full partner. But they share a frequent flyer Programme so any divorce won’t be fun.

Air Baltic would be a good add but is similar in position to Finnair so doesn’t help southern Eastern Europe.


For very very many the transit has certainly changed post Brexit and indeed somewhat earlier with those requiring VISAs and such .

I am not demeaning Heathrow per sé however like it or not the effects on the front of the cabins in particular WILL change, surely you’re not blinded by the evidential and substantive movements of financial services already underway and compounded by COVID19 induced and accelerating the structural working pattern shifts taking place.

Things aren’t going back to pre 2019 anytime soon .

The prime carrier is well aware of this as well; COVID19 has allowed IAG to remodel significantly to suit the future dynamic

And just a fact Heathrow transfer passengers as a % were in decline well before 2019 anyway .
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:12 pm

This region is dominated by the likes of Wizz. Subtract LCCs, and you'll end up with a very modest number of pax
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:20 pm

konrad wrote:
Frankly, IAG missed the opportunity to take Swiss aboard at the time when they were struggling and looking for a new partnership. LOT and Austrian do not have a high yield customer base to merit OW interest. You do not need to fly everywhere to make money, not to any low yielding market.

BA screwed up letting both Swiss and KLM escape. LX would have given them great coverage in Central Europe (and a good business hub in ZRH), whilst KLM would have been a better bet for taking UK feeder traffic than EI at DUB.

oneworld had Malev out of BUD before its bankruptcy. As others have said, if they want a carrier in Central Europe the options are really LOT at WAW (and getting it out of Star) or CSA at PRG (and getting it out of Sky Team). But how much do they need an airline in Central Europe? Should they be looking to leverage Finnair/HEL more than they do as well as connections out of LHR/MAD in light of likely changing travel patterns going forward?
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
rutankrd
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:21 pm

MLIAA wrote:
konrad wrote:
LOT and Austrian do not have a high yield customer base to merit OW interest.


And yet, the likes of Royal Air Maroc and Sri Lankan caught the eyes of oneworld.

I think geography plays a bigger role than you might think, especially in a neglected area that is dominated by Star.


Outside of the US domestic market heavily bribed the alliances aren’t that important .

Within the EU the flexible fares carriers and elaborate point to point competitive options have devastated the alliances period stop.

As others have said and it’s clear in your questioning you are looking at it from a US perspective .

Lead carrier BA has little desire to waste valuable wide body slots on flights to Leipzig, Krakow, Gdańsk or Iasi under normal circumstances, especially when a extra JFK, Dallas or Austin are begging with guaranteed up front revenue and point to point fares which are generally much higher margins.
 
rutankrd
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe,

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:36 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
konrad wrote:
Frankly, IAG missed the opportunity to take Swiss aboard at the time when they were struggling and looking for a new partnership. LOT and Austrian do not have a high yield customer base to merit OW interest. You do not need to fly everywhere to make money, not to any low yielding market.

BA screwed up letting both Swiss and KLM escape. LX would have given them great coverage in Central Europe (and a good business hub in ZRH), whilst KLM would have been a better bet for taking UK feeder traffic than EI at DUB.

oneworld had Malev out of BUD before its bankruptcy. As others have said, if they want a carrier in Central Europe the options are really LOT at WAW (and getting it out of Star) or CSA at PRG (and getting it out of Sky Team). But how much do they need an airline in Central Europe? Should they be looking to leverage Finnair/HEL more than they do as well as connections out of LHR/MAD in light of likely changing travel patterns going forward?


I suspect your exact comments re Amsterdam and KLM were considered as a real threat to those at the pinnacle of thinking . Both a threat to Heathrow and BA supremacy on the valuable long haul business at the time.

As for Swiss well they weren’t exactly financially sound when Lufthansa Group took them on were they?

For the small carriers such as Adria, Malev, CSA, and even LOT carrying others passengers for a penny on the dollar is what killed them imho.

The alliances literally destroy small operators .
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:39 pm

Covid-19 will only hasten the demise of these pointless airline alliances anyway.
Vahroone
 
rutankrd
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:52 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Covid-19 will only hasten the demise of these pointless airline alliances anyway.


I sort of agree they have been withering for some time outside of the US

More strategic codeshare arrangements are replacing these quasi airlines and indeed for the price conscious they don’t and never have played that much of a role anyway.

Corporate travel is their raison d’être and the bribes keep those customers from wondering to some extent.

Given the certain changed dynamic of work for those corporate travellers, the existence becomes less tenable by the month.

You also see that with the various sales of the award companies, and ever weaker redemption opportunities right across the sector.
 
EI320
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:43 pm

The time has passed for OW to secure a strong presence in Central Europe. There are slim pickings these days with LH Group, AFKL and the LCCs having the market sewn up. I don’t see LOT adding a great deal to OW, less so CSA. The real prize would be Wizz but that’s a non-runner given the incompatibility of the ULCC model with alliance membership and the complexities that go with it.

Nevertheless, OW still provides decent reach into Central Europe via BA, IB and AY despite not having the network depth of Star and SkyTeam in the region. Ultimately no alliance can be everything to everyone.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:18 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Covid-19 will only hasten the demise of these pointless airline alliances anyway.


Why? If anything, leveraging on the networks and facilities of each other will be more important in the short term as airlines try to build back capacity, rather than trying to go it alone themselves with point to point to secondary cities. Further they foster demand for specific airlines from customers who would direct their business elsewhere in areas of the world their home airline will never serve.
 
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vhtje
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:05 pm

Wouldn't a better option be for IAG to create a VY base in Eastern Europe and elevate VY to oneworld associate membership?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
tobsw
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:18 pm

vhtje wrote:
Wouldn't a better option be for IAG to create a VY base in Eastern Europe and elevate VY to oneworld associate membership?


Remember LEVEL Europe?

That failed.

But anyway - only 2 of IAG airlines are in a alliance. The remaining ones aren't.

No point in VY or even EI in joining OW or any alliance. There's no benefit to those airlines joining.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:54 pm

What about Oneworld in China? Almost non-existent.
 
Blerg
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:15 pm

Air Serbia (JU) makes the most sense, definitely more so than CSA which is on the verge of collapsing any moment now.
JU covers all of Balkans and before covid they had double daily flights to almost all regional destinations. If it weren't for covid JU would have launched ROV, AMM, KIV and LWO which would have been interesting for oneworld on top of other destinations such as KRR, SVO, OTP, SOF, SKG, ATH, LCA, TLV, CAI, TIA, TGD, TIV, DBV, SJJ, BNX, ZAG, LJU, PUY, ZAD...

Vinci paid €500 million for the BEG concession so they seem to believe JU and BEG have potential. Their goal is to develop the airport to reach 15 million passengers.

Even though Serbs are banned from entering the EU, BEG had a decent Q1.

BEG 283.000
BUD 183.000
SKG 153.000
 
MLIAA
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:18 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What about Oneworld in China? Almost non-existent.


China has China Southern, which codeshares with AA, BA, IB, FI, QR, QF, and JL. They are a reliable partner and while they might not join the alliance, they provide a good partner in China for these airlines.

Cathay Pacific also does well in China and Southeast Asia.
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ClassicLover
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:43 pm

MLIAA wrote:
With the demise of AirBerlin, oneworld now has a large gap between BA, IB, and EI in the west, and FI and S7 in the east. This makes service to cities like DRS and BEG difficult to reach on oneworld carriers, and complicates intra-European connections.


EI / Aer Lingus is not a member of oneworld, they left on 1 April 2007. Just to point that out.

Also, the alliance is really focused on high yield business traffic for the most part, so secondary continental cities don't need more than what they already have
.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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vhtje
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:45 pm

tobsw wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Wouldn't a better option be for IAG to create a VY base in Eastern Europe and elevate VY to oneworld associate membership?


Remember LEVEL Europe?

That failed.

But anyway - only 2 of IAG airlines are in a alliance. The remaining ones aren't.

No point in VY or even EI in joining OW or any alliance. There's no benefit to those airlines joining.


LEVEL Europe wasn't made a oneworld affiliate member. Perhaps that's why it failed. Actually, I don't believe that for one second - it's failure was more to do with the fact that it was only a half-arsed attempt at an airline. But oneworld linking might have helped. Or not.

My post was to answer the OP's original question. But I don't think IAG is interested in extending oneworld's footprint except through any organic growth of BA and IB, so it was probably a silly suggestion on my part.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Kadish
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:24 pm

If they happen to buy UX, this might be used to open some new routes..not very likely but who knows.
 
onwFan
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:35 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Covid-19 will only hasten the demise of these pointless airline alliances anyway.

And yet, we saw two additions to an alliance within the last year or so...
 
artflyer
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:06 pm

OW pax have little to no interest in flying to this region as evidenced by scarcity of routes served here by BA, IB or AY.

BA's routes pre-covid (also a great deal of them touristy or on low frequences): Salzburg, Vienna (Austria), Sofia (Bulgaria), Dubrovnik, Zagreb (Croatia), Prague (Czechia), Budapest (Hungary), Berlin (Germany), Tirana (Albania), Pristina (Kosovo), Podgorica (Montenegro), Krakow, Warsaw (Poland), Bucharest (Romania).

Pax that fly a lot to the region (specially to secondary airports) are all in SA. Winning them over would not only be extremely difficult but also mostly pointless from a financial perspective.

Pre-covid AA has been looking for slots at WAW (and AA is actively participating in IATA Airport Consultative Committe regarding the new airport for Warsaw), but I do not think they meant this to be anything more than a dead end from their perspective.
 
dstblj52
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:31 am

vhtje wrote:
tobsw wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Wouldn't a better option be for IAG to create a VY base in Eastern Europe and elevate VY to oneworld associate membership?


Remember LEVEL Europe?

That failed.

But anyway - only 2 of IAG airlines are in a alliance. The remaining ones aren't.

No point in VY or even EI in joining OW or any alliance. There's no benefit to those airlines joining.


LEVEL Europe wasn't made a oneworld affiliate member. Perhaps that's why it failed. Actually, I don't believe that for one second - it's failure was more to do with the fact that it was only a half-arsed attempt at an airline. But oneworld linking might have helped. Or not.

My post was to answer the OP's original question. But I don't think IAG is interested in extending oneworld's footprint except through any organic growth of BA and IB, so it was probably a silly suggestion on my part.

Level isn't an airline its oneworlds fighter it gets spun up painted on some random low-cost operator and goes to war with whomever IAG wants them to, Levels success is not measured by its financial returns or if it still exists but is its target dead
 
Blerg
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:14 am

LEVEL reminds me a bit of Eurowings, an LCC belonging to a major airline groupation which struggles with identity crisis. It doesn't really know what it wants to be and in what way it wants to serve a specific market. I mean they entered the massive FR-W6-OS bloodbath in Vienna and they brought .... what... one or two A321s to the fight? No wonder they were immediately destroyed.
They are in no position to be any kind of relevant player for oneworld in central Europe.
 
BealineV953
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:19 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
konrad wrote:
Frankly, IAG missed the opportunity to take Swiss aboard at the time when they were struggling and looking for a new partnership.

BA screwed up letting both Swiss and KLM escape. LX would have given them great coverage in Central Europe (and a good business hub in ZRH), whilst KLM would have been a better bet for taking UK feeder traffic than EI at DUB.


KLM would have been a very good partner for BA, and BA worked very hard on doing a deal with KLM. At the time BA was a larger carrier than KLM, and BA wanted the management of the merged company to reflect that. I can't remember the figures now, but at the time the revenue split was something like BA 60% and KL 40% and, from memory, KLM wanted 50%, or close to 50%, control of the merged company. BA could not agree to that. A BA / KL partnership would have been a good thing, but not at any price.
When KLM did a deal with Air France, people at BA were a little surprised and bemused to see that KLM had agreed a deal with AF that looked very much the proposal tabled by BA.
Swiss would have been a good partner for BA, but not at a strategic level. BA did sign a commercial agreement with Swiss in 2002, and this was extended in 2003. However, in June 2004 Swiss served notice on the deal. The following year Swiss was acquired by Lufthansa, so it is likely that when Swiss ended the deal with BA they knew the direction they wanted to go in.
Incidentally, Swiss was in the process of joining oneworld. When a carrier joins oneworld, an existing member 'sponsors' them. Swiss was sponsored by American, largely because AA wanted a network to feed their services at Zurich.
In the 1980s and 90s BA bought, started a invested in a number of airlines. In 1989 BA in partnership with KLM tried to buy Sabena, but this was blocked by regulators. By 2000 BA was less keen to own other airlines. In 2000 Air Liberte was sold, in 2001 go was sold and in 2002 dba was sold. So, in 2004 BA was unlikely to try to buy Swiss.
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usflyer msp
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:13 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
konrad wrote:
Frankly, IAG missed the opportunity to take Swiss aboard at the time when they were struggling and looking for a new partnership.

BA screwed up letting both Swiss and KLM escape. LX would have given them great coverage in Central Europe (and a good business hub in ZRH), whilst KLM would have been a better bet for taking UK feeder traffic than EI at DUB.


KLM would have been a very good partner for BA, and BA worked very hard on doing a deal with KLM. At the time BA was a larger carrier than KLM, and BA wanted the management of the merged company to reflect that. I can't remember the figures now, but at the time the revenue split was something like BA 60% and KL 40% and, from memory, KLM wanted 50%, or close to 50%, control of the merged company. BA could not agree to that. A BA / KL partnership would have been a good thing, but not at any price.
When KLM did a deal with Air France, people at BA were a little surprised and bemused to see that KLM had agreed a deal with AF that looked very much the proposal tabled by BA.
Swiss would have been a good partner for BA, but not at a strategic level. BA did sign a commercial agreement with Swiss in 2002, and this was extended in 2003. However, in June 2004 Swiss served notice on the deal. The following year Swiss was acquired by Lufthansa, so it is likely that when Swiss ended the deal with BA they knew the direction they wanted to go in.
Incidentally, Swiss was in the process of joining oneworld. When a carrier joins oneworld, an existing member 'sponsors' them. Swiss was sponsored by American, largely because AA wanted a network to feed their services at Zurich.
In the 1980s and 90s BA bought, started a invested in a number of airlines. In 1989 BA in partnership with KLM tried to buy Sabena, but this was blocked by regulators. By 2000 BA was less keen to own other airlines. In 2000 Air Liberte was sold, in 2001 go was sold and in 2002 dba was sold. So, in 2004 BA was unlikely to try to buy Swiss.


The Swiss/oneworld breakup was more dramatic than that. BA tried to blackmail LX - saying they would veto their membership unless LX handed over info on their most profitable customers to them. LX was like hell naw to the naw naw naw and just decided to withdraw their membership application and look at other options.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:04 pm

MLIAA wrote:
With the demise of AirBerlin, oneworld now has a large gap between BA, IB, and EI in the west, and FI and S7 in the east. This makes service to cities like DRS and BEG difficult to reach on oneworld carriers, and complicates intra-European connections.

How can oneworld strengthen its position in Central Europe? There has been talk on here about poaching a dissatisfied member of another alliance, namely LOT. Or possibly poaching a cash-strapped airline like CSA or Austrian by IAG.

Would Air Serbia be a good candidate?

Or does oneworld continue on and accept this weak spot in the network?


Icelandair (FI) is neither in oneworld, nor is it particularly in the east. :old:

The code I guess you're looking for is AY for Finnair. :)

regards!
Sveinn
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MLIAA
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:59 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
With the demise of AirBerlin, oneworld now has a large gap between BA, IB, and EI in the west, and FI and S7 in the east. This makes service to cities like DRS and BEG difficult to reach on oneworld carriers, and complicates intra-European connections.

How can oneworld strengthen its position in Central Europe? There has been talk on here about poaching a dissatisfied member of another alliance, namely LOT. Or possibly poaching a cash-strapped airline like CSA or Austrian by IAG.

Would Air Serbia be a good candidate?

Or does oneworld continue on and accept this weak spot in the network?


Icelandair (FI) is neither in oneworld, nor is it particularly in the east. :old:

The code I guess you're looking for is AY for Finnair. :)

regards!
Sveinn


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aemoreira1981
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:57 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
What about Oneworld in China? Almost non-existent.


CZ left SkyTeam to be unaligned. However, since becoming unaligned, they have entered into partnerships with both AA and BA. As travel recovers, I expect all oneworld carriers serving Beijing to move to PKX.
 
moa999
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:53 pm

And CZ had existing partnerships with other OW airlines.

You just need to unwind the CX/AC cross-shareholding and it becomes more palatable.
Certainly CX could do with the cash from selling out of AC.
 
BealineV953
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:40 am

usflyer msp wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
BA screwed up letting both Swiss and KLM escape. LX would have given them great coverage in Central Europe (and a good business hub in ZRH), whilst KLM would have been a better bet for taking UK feeder traffic than EI at DUB.


KLM would have been a very good partner for BA, and BA worked very hard on doing a deal with KLM. At the time BA was a larger carrier than KLM, and BA wanted the management of the merged company to reflect that. I can't remember the figures now, but at the time the revenue split was something like BA 60% and KL 40% and, from memory, KLM wanted 50%, or close to 50%, control of the merged company. BA could not agree to that. A BA / KL partnership would have been a good thing, but not at any price.
When KLM did a deal with Air France, people at BA were a little surprised and bemused to see that KLM had agreed a deal with AF that looked very much the proposal tabled by BA.
Swiss would have been a good partner for BA, but not at a strategic level. BA did sign a commercial agreement with Swiss in 2002, and this was extended in 2003. However, in June 2004 Swiss served notice on the deal. The following year Swiss was acquired by Lufthansa, so it is likely that when Swiss ended the deal with BA they knew the direction they wanted to go in.
Incidentally, Swiss was in the process of joining oneworld. When a carrier joins oneworld, an existing member 'sponsors' them. Swiss was sponsored by American, largely because AA wanted a network to feed their services at Zurich.
In the 1980s and 90s BA bought, started a invested in a number of airlines. In 1989 BA in partnership with KLM tried to buy Sabena, but this was blocked by regulators. By 2000 BA was less keen to own other airlines. In 2000 Air Liberte was sold, in 2001 go was sold and in 2002 dba was sold. So, in 2004 BA was unlikely to try to buy Swiss.


The Swiss/oneworld breakup was more dramatic than that. BA tried to blackmail LX - saying they would veto their membership unless LX handed over info on their most profitable customers to them.
LX was like hell naw to the naw naw naw and just decided to withdraw their membership application and look at other options.


Hello. Do you have a source for that claim?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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anstar
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am

usflyer msp wrote:
The Swiss/oneworld breakup was more dramatic than that. BA tried to blackmail LX - saying they would veto their membership unless LX handed over info on their most profitable customers to them. LX was like hell naw to the naw naw naw and just decided to withdraw their membership application and look at other options.


I seem to remember BA wanted to strip SWISS of all their LHR slots as well. Seemed like BA wanted to be the master and Lufthansa wanted to be a partner and SWISS went for being a partner with LH rather than slave to BA.
 
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:10 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

KLM would have been a very good partner for BA, and BA worked very hard on doing a deal with KLM. At the time BA was a larger carrier than KLM, and BA wanted the management of the merged company to reflect that. I can't remember the figures now, but at the time the revenue split was something like BA 60% and KL 40% and, from memory, KLM wanted 50%, or close to 50%, control of the merged company. BA could not agree to that. A BA / KL partnership would have been a good thing, but not at any price.
When KLM did a deal with Air France, people at BA were a little surprised and bemused to see that KLM had agreed a deal with AF that looked very much the proposal tabled by BA.
Swiss would have been a good partner for BA, but not at a strategic level. BA did sign a commercial agreement with Swiss in 2002, and this was extended in 2003. However, in June 2004 Swiss served notice on the deal. The following year Swiss was acquired by Lufthansa, so it is likely that when Swiss ended the deal with BA they knew the direction they wanted to go in.
Incidentally, Swiss was in the process of joining oneworld. When a carrier joins oneworld, an existing member 'sponsors' them. Swiss was sponsored by American, largely because AA wanted a network to feed their services at Zurich.
In the 1980s and 90s BA bought, started a invested in a number of airlines. In 1989 BA in partnership with KLM tried to buy Sabena, but this was blocked by regulators. By 2000 BA was less keen to own other airlines. In 2000 Air Liberte was sold, in 2001 go was sold and in 2002 dba was sold. So, in 2004 BA was unlikely to try to buy Swiss.


The Swiss/oneworld breakup was more dramatic than that. BA tried to blackmail LX - saying they would veto their membership unless LX handed over info on their most profitable customers to them.
LX was like hell naw to the naw naw naw and just decided to withdraw their membership application and look at other options.


Hello. Do you have a source for that claim?


From the archives:

Swiss' is in dispute with British Airways PLC over the issue of sharing sensitive customer data when it joins the OneWorld alliance, NZZ am Sonntag reported.

NZZ am Sonntag cited a 'Swiss' frequent flyer program insider as saying all of the 'Swiss' highly sensitive customer data are kept within its frequent flyer program.

The insider said 'Swiss' intends to separate the sensitive customer data out of the program so that it can merge its frequent flyer program with that of BA without BA having direct access to 'Swiss' customers.

The report follows one on Saturday in Tages-Anzeiger, saying that 'Swiss' had temporarily stopped its contractor Electronic Data Systems from carrying out work on the Oneworld alliance project.

'Swiss' spokesman Peter Marthaler responded that only the more complicated projects connected with joining the alliance have been postponed, and only as long as it takes to clear up the details about combining the frequent flyer programs.
 
BealineV953
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:55 pm

anstar wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
The Swiss/oneworld breakup was more dramatic than that. BA tried to blackmail LX - saying they would veto their membership unless LX handed over info on their most profitable customers to them. LX was like hell naw to the naw naw naw and just decided to withdraw their membership application and look at other options.


I seem to remember BA wanted to strip SWISS of all their LHR slots as well. Seemed like BA wanted to be the master and Lufthansa wanted to be a partner and SWISS went for being a partner with LH rather than slave to BA.


Absolutely not true.
In September 2003 British Airways and Swiss International Airlines signed a legally binding memorandum of understanding on a commercial agreement. BA and Swiss planned joint operations between the UK and Switzerland.
In October 2003 BA and Swiss began codesharing on each other’s services between Heathrow, Geneva and Zurich.
If I remember correctly, BA operated all LHR-GVA and vv services and the slots held by Swiss at LHR for GVA-LHR and LHR-GVA services were given to BA to enable it to increase frequency on that route. Swiss continued to operate ZRH-LHR and vv.
Bear in mind that at that time Swiss was much smaller than Swissair had been, and this arrangement enabled Swiss to maintain a share of LHR-GVA revenue while freeing up aircraft to use elsewhere.
In June 2004 Swiss asked BA to release it from some of the obligations of the commercial agreement. An amicable agreement was reached.
BA retained the Heathrow slots acquired from Swiss. Codesharing between Heathrow and Geneva was to continue for a further three years. Other codeshares ended in October 2004.
At the same time Swiss announced that it would not join the oneworld alliance.
A commercial agreement covering UK-Switzerland services alone could not by any stretch of the imagination make BA 'master' of Swiss. Swiss moved away from BA, AA and oneworld and instead determined that it's future lay in selling itself to Lufthansa.
Whether being owned by another airline makes you an equal partner is debatable.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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DLHAM
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:05 pm

MLIAA wrote:
With the demise of AirBerlin, oneworld now has a large gap between BA, IB, and EI in the west, and FI and S7 in the east. This makes service to cities like DRS and BEG difficult to reach on oneworld carriers, and complicates intra-European connections.

How can oneworld strengthen its position in Central Europe? There has been talk on here about poaching a dissatisfied member of another alliance, namely LOT. Or possibly poaching a cash-strapped airline like CSA or Austrian by IAG.

Would Air Serbia be a good candidate?

Or does oneworld continue on and accept this weak spot in the network?


Malev was oneworlds "Gateway to east Europe". But they are long gone. Oneworld seems to be the weakest Alliance in Europe anyway.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:47 pm

Could Ukraine International be a valuable addition to OneWorld? They're currently not in any alliance and they do have a reasonable coverage of Europe, specially eastern Europe.

DLHAM wrote:
Oneworld seems to be the weakest Alliance in Europe anyway.


Certainly true, Europe is largely dominated by Star Alliance along with some SkyTeam. OneWorld is skirting the edges of Europe.
 
Jutlander
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:18 pm

EI320 wrote:
The real prize would be Wizz but that’s a non-runner given the incompatibility of the ULCC model with alliance membership and the complexities that go with it.


What about Blue Air? They're not as low cost as Wizz and can place counterweight towards Tarom in OTP. Blue Air does codeshare with Alitalia for example while Wizz doesn't codeshare with anyone.
 
Jutlander
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:26 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Except Dresden, several airports have London as the top destination


True, but London doesn't have to mean LHR at BA. It could be STN at FR or LTN at W6, there is a lot of non-OneWorld traffic (or non-alliance for that matter) between London and central Europe.

Take BUD for example. Sure there is BA to LHR, however also U2 to LGW, FR to STN and W6 to LGW and LTN. BA is a minor player on this route, most pax fly one of the LCCs.
 
debonair
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:45 pm

Jutlander wrote:
What about Blue Air? They're not as low cost as Wizz and can place counterweight towards Tarom in OTP. Blue Air does codeshare with Alitalia for example while Wizz doesn't codeshare with anyone.


Absolutely! Blue Air no longer wants to be a ULCC. Modern B737Max fleet, move to central airports like CDG/AMS/LHR, IPO at the London Stock Exchange and much more, source:

https://www.agerpres.ro/economic-intern ... iu--690481
 
Blerg
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:34 am

debonair wrote:
Jutlander wrote:
What about Blue Air? They're not as low cost as Wizz and can place counterweight towards Tarom in OTP. Blue Air does codeshare with Alitalia for example while Wizz doesn't codeshare with anyone.


Absolutely! Blue Air no longer wants to be a ULCC. Modern B737Max fleet, move to central airports like CDG/AMS/LHR, IPO at the London Stock Exchange and much more, source:

https://www.agerpres.ro/economic-intern ... iu--690481


I think oneworld needs someone with a more extensive coverage in the east. Even though Blue Air is improving, they still have a modest regional network and are focused on point to point travel.
 
BealineV953
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:58 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

The Swiss/oneworld breakup was more dramatic than that. BA tried to blackmail LX - saying they would veto their membership unless LX handed over info on their most profitable customers to them.
LX was like hell naw to the naw naw naw and just decided to withdraw their membership application and look at other options.


Hello. Do you have a source for that claim?


From the archives:
Swiss' is in dispute with British Airways PLC over the issue of sharing sensitive customer data when it joins the OneWorld alliance, NZZ am Sonntag reported.
NZZ am Sonntag cited a 'Swiss' frequent flyer program insider as saying all of the 'Swiss' highly sensitive customer data are kept within its frequent flyer program.
The insider said 'Swiss' intends to separate the sensitive customer data out of the program so that it can merge its frequent flyer program with that of BA without BA having direct access to 'Swiss' customers.
The report follows one on Saturday in Tages-Anzeiger, saying that 'Swiss' had temporarily stopped its contractor Electronic Data Systems from carrying out work on the Oneworld alliance project.
'Swiss' spokesman Peter Marthaler responded that only the more complicated projects connected with joining the alliance have been postponed, and only as long as it takes to clear up the details about combining the frequent flyer programs.


Do you have a link to your source? I’d like to read the full story.

The Swiss spokesman saying “…the more complicated projects connected with joining the alliance have been postponed, and only as long as it takes to clear up the details about combining the frequent flyer programs” does not suggest to me that the delay was because of “blackmail” or the threat of a “veto”.

Saying that highly sensitive customer data is kept within a frequent flyer programme is simply a statement of fact. Where the ‘insider’ said that Swiss intended to separate sensitive customer data out of the program so that it could merge its frequent flyer program with that of BA without BA having direct access to 'Swiss' customers, either the insider was wrong to suggest that FF data had to be merged, or the journalist had misunderstood what had been said. There was, and is, no requirement for a oneworld member to merge its frequent flyer data with those of the other carriers. There are clear legal reasons for this.

In September 1998 when the oneworld alliance was created, the founding members (American Airlines, British Airways, Canadian Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Qantas) created a ‘requirements’ manual. The manual is a hefty volume.
The manual outlines the commercial obligations of oneworld members. For frequent flyers, members commit to adopt the tiered membership scheme, and to offer reciprocal reward and redemption, lounge access and customer support.
The manual also covers, in great detail, the technical requirements for handling customers seamlessly across partners.

Each oneworld member has its own reservation system and its own frequent flyer programme and system. There are no shared oneworld systems. There are no ‘merged’ oneworld databases.

For frequent flyers, the technical requirement is for each partner to be able to transmit a small subset of their FF member’s information to the partner airlines so that they can be recognised for airport handling. This enables priority check-in, lounge access, priority boarding and the like. For this, a passenger’s full personal details are not needed.

Similarly, the requirement is for each partner to be able to transmit a subset of their FF’s information so that the partner airlines are able to recognise them for mileage reward and redemption. Again, a passenger’s full personal details are not required.

The bottom line is that what Swiss was expected to do was clear.

BA was keen for Swiss to join the alliance. Swiss membership of oneworld was sponsored by American. Had BA tried to impose special requirements on Swiss, AA could have raised the issue with BA. AA and Swiss could have raised the issue with the oneworld Central Management team. The Central Management team reported to the oneworld Governing Board, comprising the Chief Executives of the member airlines. Control of the alliance sits with the Central Management team and the Governing Board. The suggestion that BA was in a position to ‘veto’ Swiss membership of the alliance is absurd.

I very much doubt that confusion over frequent flyer data was the real reason for Swiss slowing work on joining oneworld. Rather, I suspect that Swiss had decided on a change of strategy, and already planned to align with the Lufthansa group. Claiming that time was needed to clear up details around combining the frequent flyer programmes was probably a stalling tactic.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
moa999
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:31 pm

debonair wrote:
Absolutely! Blue Air no longer wants to be a ULCC. Modern B737Max fleet, move to central airports like CDG/AMS/LHR, IPO at the London Stock Exchange and much more, source:


Maybe one day. But for now Blue Air is smaller than Sri Lankan.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:55 am

BealineV953 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

Hello. Do you have a source for that claim?


From the archives:
Swiss' is in dispute with British Airways PLC over the issue of sharing sensitive customer data when it joins the OneWorld alliance, NZZ am Sonntag reported.
NZZ am Sonntag cited a 'Swiss' frequent flyer program insider as saying all of the 'Swiss' highly sensitive customer data are kept within its frequent flyer program.
The insider said 'Swiss' intends to separate the sensitive customer data out of the program so that it can merge its frequent flyer program with that of BA without BA having direct access to 'Swiss' customers.
The report follows one on Saturday in Tages-Anzeiger, saying that 'Swiss' had temporarily stopped its contractor Electronic Data Systems from carrying out work on the Oneworld alliance project.
'Swiss' spokesman Peter Marthaler responded that only the more complicated projects connected with joining the alliance have been postponed, and only as long as it takes to clear up the details about combining the frequent flyer programs.


Do you have a link to your source? I’d like to read the full story.

The Swiss spokesman saying “…the more complicated projects connected with joining the alliance have been postponed, and only as long as it takes to clear up the details about combining the frequent flyer programs” does not suggest to me that the delay was because of “blackmail” or the threat of a “veto”.

Saying that highly sensitive customer data is kept within a frequent flyer programme is simply a statement of fact. Where the ‘insider’ said that Swiss intended to separate sensitive customer data out of the program so that it could merge its frequent flyer program with that of BA without BA having direct access to 'Swiss' customers, either the insider was wrong to suggest that FF data had to be merged, or the journalist had misunderstood what had been said. There was, and is, no requirement for a oneworld member to merge its frequent flyer data with those of the other carriers. There are clear legal reasons for this.

In September 1998 when the oneworld alliance was created, the founding members (American Airlines, British Airways, Canadian Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Qantas) created a ‘requirements’ manual. The manual is a hefty volume.
The manual outlines the commercial obligations of oneworld members. For frequent flyers, members commit to adopt the tiered membership scheme, and to offer reciprocal reward and redemption, lounge access and customer support.
The manual also covers, in great detail, the technical requirements for handling customers seamlessly across partners.

Each oneworld member has its own reservation system and its own frequent flyer programme and system. There are no shared oneworld systems. There are no ‘merged’ oneworld databases.

For frequent flyers, the technical requirement is for each partner to be able to transmit a small subset of their FF member’s information to the partner airlines so that they can be recognised for airport handling. This enables priority check-in, lounge access, priority boarding and the like. For this, a passenger’s full personal details are not needed.

Similarly, the requirement is for each partner to be able to transmit a subset of their FF’s information so that the partner airlines are able to recognise them for mileage reward and redemption. Again, a passenger’s full personal details are not required.

The bottom line is that what Swiss was expected to do was clear.

BA was keen for Swiss to join the alliance. Swiss membership of oneworld was sponsored by American. Had BA tried to impose special requirements on Swiss, AA could have raised the issue with BA. AA and Swiss could have raised the issue with the oneworld Central Management team. The Central Management team reported to the oneworld Governing Board, comprising the Chief Executives of the member airlines. Control of the alliance sits with the Central Management team and the Governing Board. The suggestion that BA was in a position to ‘veto’ Swiss membership of the alliance is absurd.

I very much doubt that confusion over frequent flyer data was the real reason for Swiss slowing work on joining oneworld. Rather, I suspect that Swiss had decided on a change of strategy, and already planned to align with the Lufthansa group. Claiming that time was needed to clear up details around combining the frequent flyer programmes was probably a stalling tactic.


Article
https://postandparcel.info/10777/news/b ... collapses/

British Airways alliance with Swiss collapses
postandparcel.info/10777/news/british-airways-alliance-with-swiss-collapses/
EmilyJune 3, 2004
Post & Parcel
By Kevin Done, Aerospace Correspondent
Published: June 2 2004 22:05 | Last Updated: June 3 2004 7:43

The commercial alliance between British Airways and Swiss International Airlines collapsed on Thursday after the two airlines failed to agree on how to integrate their frequent flier programmes into the executive club.

Swiss said: “The sizeable cost of such an integration and the drawbacks it would bring currently outweigh its projected mid-to-long-term benefits. As the abandonment of the proposed integration also means that the bilateral agreement between Swiss and British Airways cannot be put into practise, Swiss is unable to join the Oneworld alliance at the present.”

Last September the airlines announced an ambitious accord that was supposed to lead to the struggling Swiss carrier joining the Oneworld global airline alliance led by BA and American Airlines.

But a condition for Swiss’s entry to Oneworld was completion of a bilateral commercial pact with BA and in recent weeks the two have been unable to agree on a key element – the merger of the airlines’ frequent flyer programmes.

As part of the pact with BA, Swiss’s present frequent flyer programme, Swiss TravelClub, was supposed to be integrated into BA’s Executive Club. But since the deal was concluded there has been a shake-up of top management at the Swiss airline.

The new team, led by Christoph Franz, has become increasingly reluctant to hand over to BA the details of its frequent flyers, including key business travellers. A sticking point has been the inability of the sides to agree on the price Swiss would pay BA for picking up the liabilities of unspent frequent flyer miles in the Swiss programme.

Swiss’s failure to enter Oneworld is a setback to its recovery strategy. Membership of one of the world’s three leading alliances – including Star, led by Lufthansa and United Airlines, SkyTeam led by Air France and Delta Air Lines, and Oneworld – has been a long-held goal. The airline said last year that its membership of the Oneworld alliance could bring about SFr100m (£43.6m) in extra annual revenues.

Swiss was formed out of the 2001 collapse of Swissair through a SFr2.7bn rescue by the Swiss government, several cantons and leading industrial groups, banks and private investors. It started flying at the end of March 2002 but struggled from the outset with too much capacity and a network too big for its available market.


From the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ishairways

BA blackballs Swiss after fallout on frequent flyers
Andrew Clark
Thu 3 Jun 2004 21.31 EDT
British Airways' latest attempt to forge an alliance with a competitor came to nothing yesterday as a tie-up with Switzerland's cash-strapped national airline collapsed amid acrimonious disagreement.

Swiss International Airlines said it was walking away from a deal under which it was to hand details of its 500,000 frequent flyers to BA's Executive Club in return for a SFr50m (£22m) package of financial support.

As a result of the break-up, BA blocked Swiss's prized entry to the OneWorld global airline network - which drew an angry response from Swiss's chairman, Pieter Bouw.

Mr Bouw accused BA of blackballing Swiss from the alliance, pointing out that other European members such as Iberia, Finnair and Aer Lingus had joined without disclosing their database of loyal customers.

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"We have proposed to BA that they treat us on the same basis as the other European members of the OneWorld alliance," said Mr Bouw. "But BA have refused to do so."

Mr Bouw said Swiss "did not fully understand" why its membership had been refused. When asked whether he thought BA was deliberately discriminating against a financially weak competitor, he said: "It could be."

Membership of an alliance is crucial to Swiss's hopes of securing a profitable future. The airline has struggled since emerging from the ashes of its bankrupt predecessor Swissair, amassing net losses of SFr980m in 2002 and SFr687m last year.

The failure of the tie-up is a blow to BA, which has been attempting to position itself for long-term consolidation in the European air industry. It had previously attempted to forge a deal with KLM, which ended up merging with Air France this year.

Swiss was viewed as an attractive partner because of its database of wealthy, globe-trotting central European businesspeople.

Despite yesterday's disagreement, BA will press ahead with a purchase of eight pairs of daily Heathrow take-off and landing slots from Swiss. Five of these pairs will serve as collateral for the previously agreed SFr50m credit facility, which Swiss took up in February.

BA's chief executive, Rod Eddington, said: " We are disappointed that Swiss has decided to step back from our agreement but we accept that it is up to Swiss to decide what is in its best interests."

A BA insider blamed the deal's failure on a change in Swiss's management - the agreement was originally struck by chief executive André Dosé, who resigned in March. Swiss's financial position has improved in recent months, leaving it in less need of aid from BA.

BA's shares edged up 4.5p to 253.5p yesterday on news of an 11% rise in passenger traffic during May.

The airline said long-haul business-class bookings were "recovering steadily" from last year's slump caused by the Iraq war and the Sars virus. But short-haul premium traffic remains "at lower levels".
 
PSA727
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:29 am

It has been my dream that LOT leaves Star and joins OW. More so since the collapse of AB. The Polish government still seems determined to build that new central airport west of Warsaw in order to create a large hub for LO. However, as long as the LH Group treats LO like the wicked stepchild in their FF family, I don't see how that new airport won't remain overshadowed by the operations at FRA/MUC/ZRH. Moreover, I don't see the LH Group bringing LO into their JV/ATI TATL venture with AC and UA.

But at this point, I'll just be happy if someone like Air Baltic joins OW. They still are untied to a global alliance.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
factsonly
Posts: 3080
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Re: oneworld in Central Europe

Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:25 am

usflyer msp wrote:


As a result of the break-up, BA blocked Swiss's prized entry to the OneWorld global airline network - which drew an angry response from Swiss's chairman, Pieter Bouw.

Mr Bouw accused BA of blackballing Swiss from the alliance, pointing out that other European members such as Iberia, Finnair and Aer Lingus had joined without disclosing their database of loyal customers.



Just to remind everyone of a juicy detail in this One World saga:

- Mr. Pieter Bouw, Chairman of Swiss, was CEO of KLM for many years. He was part of the KLM management team that turned a merger with BA down.

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