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vulindlela744
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Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:15 pm

This seems very odd. Presently in Air Canada 787-9 is in route from Frankfurt nonstop to Atlanta according to Flightaware and FR24.Does anyone know why this would be?
 
Opus99
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:15 pm

vulindlela744 wrote:
This seems very odd. Presently in Air Canada 787-9 is in route from Frankfurt nonstop to Atlanta according to Flightaware and FR24.Does anyone know why this would be?

Cargo. A lot of cargo coming in and out of those two cities
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:58 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Cargo. A lot of cargo coming in and out of those two cities


I do not believe that AC has the fifth freedom rights to operate US-Germany.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Q
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:28 pm

Vaccine shots carry boxes in the passenger seats. I assume it.

Q
 
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janders
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:35 pm

DocLightning wrote:

I do not believe that AC has the fifth freedom rights to operate US-Germany.


This would be an example 7th freedom, not 5th unless flight originates or terminates in Canada.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:35 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Cargo. A lot of cargo coming in and out of those two cities


I do not believe that AC has the fifth freedom rights to operate US-Germany.

The open skies agreement between the EU and Canada permits all-cargo flights that don't touch the airlines's home country. The same applies to the treaty between the US and Canada. 7th Freedom rights for cargo are included in both.
 
gdavis003
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:51 pm

janders wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

I do not believe that AC has the fifth freedom rights to operate US-Germany.


This would be an example 7th freedom, not 5th unless flight originates or terminates in Canada.


It actually does originate in Canada though. ACA7237 is YYZ-FRA-ATL. So, in that case, wouldn't it technically be fifth freedom?
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:08 am

gdavis003 wrote:
janders wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

I do not believe that AC has the fifth freedom rights to operate US-Germany.


This would be an example 7th freedom, not 5th unless flight originates or terminates in Canada.


It actually does originate in Canada though. ACA7237 is YYZ-FRA-ATL. So, in that case, wouldn't it technically be fifth freedom?


And 10 hops ago, the plane was probably in HKG or something. If its cargo only, the YYA-FRA doesn't count.
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:59 am

Check out Greenville-Spartanburg, SC for more interesting stuff. BA has been sending their 77Ws there, among other curiosities.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
jellyhead
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:34 am

gdavis003 wrote:
janders wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

I do not believe that AC has the fifth freedom rights to operate US-Germany.


This would be an example 7th freedom, not 5th unless flight originates or terminates in Canada.


It actually does originate in Canada though. ACA7237 is YYZ-FRA-ATL. So, in that case, wouldn't it technically be fifth freedom?


Since Freedoms of the Air are related to the scheduled traffic and I assume this is not regular scheduled flight I believe the whole discussion if it's 5th or 7th freedom is moot, isn't it? It's charter flight so it's neither! But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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LH748
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:57 am

This one has operated multiple times already.
306 310 318 319 320 321 333 343 388 ATR72 733 737 738 739 743 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 77W 788 CRJ7 CRJ9 E170 F100 MD11 RJ1H
AA AB AC AF AK AZ BA DE DL EW FD FR HF HG IB IR MF KU LH LT LX OD TG TK TP UA VJ VN WN W6 YP YW
 
asuflyer
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:15 pm

vulindlela744 wrote:
This seems very odd. Presently in Air Canada 787-9 is in route from Frankfurt nonstop to Atlanta according to Flightaware and FR24.Does anyone know why this would be?


AC has been operating many cargo routes with 787s throughout the pandemic now including YVR-ORD, YYZ-ORD, YYZ-BOS, FRA-ATL-MIA, ATL and MIA to YYZ.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:53 pm

WS even operated a couple cargo flights, DUB-YYZ-ATL.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:09 pm

AC isn't the only airline with some weird cargo or preighter routings. ET has also been flying a lot of sectors that don't touch ADD (this may be why AC has decided to hold onto some 767s and convert them to freighters).

Also, I wonder if it may be worth it to ultimately convert some original A321s to freighters (the mainline A321 average fleet age is 18 years). Of the original 10 deliveries, 8 are fully owned. (Air Canada eventually leased 5 secondhand ex-AF frames as well).
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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GCT64
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:14 pm

Cargo traffic rights are typically much more relaxed than passenger. Asiana, Ethiopian, Turkish, Qatar, Emirates are all examples of airlines who operate US-EU cargo flights.
Within Europe, Fedex and UPS operate many flights and have aircraft based in Europe, pick a random Fedex 757 (N974FD), it's been flying routes like: EMA-BSL-LGG-STN.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
CMA727
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:28 pm

jellyhead wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:
janders wrote:

This would be an example 7th freedom, not 5th unless flight originates or terminates in Canada.


It actually does originate in Canada though. ACA7237 is YYZ-FRA-ATL. So, in that case, wouldn't it technically be fifth freedom?


Since Freedoms of the Air are related to the scheduled traffic and I assume this is not regular scheduled flight I believe the whole discussion if it's 5th or 7th freedom is moot, isn't it? It's charter flight so it's neither! But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


IIRC the first two Freedoms of the Air, apply to any air operation. The rest (3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9th) apply to commercial flights regardless if it is regular (scheduled) or charter service. In this case if flight ACA7237 is a chartered YYZ-FRA-ATL flight it operated under 5th Freedom rights.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:54 pm

The flights are a wet lease for a large American freight airline, supplementing their high demand for cargo lift.

The ATL flight noted, as well as ORD-NRT flights (and others) are operated under that carrier’s authority, not Air Canada’s.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:19 pm

Q wrote:
Vaccine shots carry boxes in the passenger seats. I assume it.

Q

The Economy and Premium Economy seats have been removed, as have the rear Business cabin seats (when two cabins are installed). The forward 26 or 28 (depending on the version) Business seats remain and are used for crew positioning.

Galleys, closets and lavatories remain.

Cargo is bulk loaded (on skinny pallets) through the cabin doors and secured in the cabin.
 
ghYHZ
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:27 pm

ChrisNH38 wrote:
Check out Greenville-Spartanburg, SC for more interesting stuff. BA has been sending their 77Ws there, among other curiosities.


BA has been at Halifax YHZ a lot recently carrying rubber to Michelin Tire plants in Nova Scotia.

Michelin has several plants in the Greenville-Spartanburg area. Just wondering??
 
jellyhead
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:29 am

CMA727 wrote:
jellyhead wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:

It actually does originate in Canada though. ACA7237 is YYZ-FRA-ATL. So, in that case, wouldn't it technically be fifth freedom?


Since Freedoms of the Air are related to the scheduled traffic and I assume this is not regular scheduled flight I believe the whole discussion if it's 5th or 7th freedom is moot, isn't it? It's charter flight so it's neither! But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


IIRC the first two Freedoms of the Air, apply to any air operation. The rest (3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9th) apply to commercial flights regardless if it is regular (scheduled) or charter service. In this case if flight ACA7237 is a chartered YYZ-FRA-ATL flight it operated under 5th Freedom rights.


I believe ICAO would disagree with you - it's very clearly stated that Freedoms of the Air are stated with respect to SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL SERVICE!!! And since Freedoms of the Air usually require reciprocity from the diplomatic point of view, applying such on one-off case like charter flight makes no sense.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:40 am

jellyhead wrote:
CMA727 wrote:
jellyhead wrote:

Since Freedoms of the Air are related to the scheduled traffic and I assume this is not regular scheduled flight I believe the whole discussion if it's 5th or 7th freedom is moot, isn't it? It's charter flight so it's neither! But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


IIRC the first two Freedoms of the Air, apply to any air operation. The rest (3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9th) apply to commercial flights regardless if it is regular (scheduled) or charter service. In this case if flight ACA7237 is a chartered YYZ-FRA-ATL flight it operated under 5th Freedom rights.


I believe ICAO would disagree with you - it's very clearly stated that Freedoms of the Air are stated with respect to SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL SERVICE!!! And since Freedoms of the Air usually require reciprocity from the diplomatic point of view, applying such on one-off case like charter flight makes no sense.

What charters are and are not allowed (and by whom), along with the degree of passenger flights, is spelled out in air service agreements between countries. The Freedoms of the Airs is used as a template. Charters are not allowed to operate wherever they want.
 
jellyhead
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:06 am

Polot wrote:
jellyhead wrote:
CMA727 wrote:

IIRC the first two Freedoms of the Air, apply to any air operation. The rest (3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9th) apply to commercial flights regardless if it is regular (scheduled) or charter service. In this case if flight ACA7237 is a chartered YYZ-FRA-ATL flight it operated under 5th Freedom rights.


I believe ICAO would disagree with you - it's very clearly stated that Freedoms of the Air are stated with respect to SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL SERVICE!!! And since Freedoms of the Air usually require reciprocity from the diplomatic point of view, applying such on one-off case like charter flight makes no sense.

What charters are and are not allowed (and by whom), along with the degree of passenger flights, is spelled out in air service agreements between countries. The Freedoms of the Airs is used as a template. Charters are not allowed to operate wherever they want.


I never said charter flights are allowed to operate wherever they want, did I? I said Freedoms of the Air are laid out with respect to scheduled commercial service and applying them to charter flights would make no sense.
 
Speedy752
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:53 pm

ghYHZ wrote:
ChrisNH38 wrote:
Check out Greenville-Spartanburg, SC for more interesting stuff. BA has been sending their 77Ws there, among other curiosities.


BA has been at Halifax YHZ a lot recently carrying rubber to Michelin Tire plants in Nova Scotia.

Michelin has several plants in the Greenville-Spartanburg area. Just wondering??


More than likely it’s some type of automotive. GSP is best known as home to BMW X-3/X-5 production and all the associated suppliers.
 
CMA727
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:31 pm

jellyhead wrote:
CMA727 wrote:
jellyhead wrote:

Since Freedoms of the Air are related to the scheduled traffic and I assume this is not regular scheduled flight I believe the whole discussion if it's 5th or 7th freedom is moot, isn't it? It's charter flight so it's neither! But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


IIRC the first two Freedoms of the Air, apply to any air operation. The rest (3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9th) apply to commercial flights regardless if it is regular (scheduled) or charter service. In this case if flight ACA7237 is a chartered YYZ-FRA-ATL flight it operated under 5th Freedom rights.


I believe ICAO would disagree with you - it's very clearly stated that Freedoms of the Air are stated with respect to SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL SERVICE!!! And since Freedoms of the Air usually require reciprocity from the diplomatic point of view, applying such on one-off case like charter flight makes no sense.


Thanks for your comment Jellyhead.
While I agree with you that Freedoms of the Air and stated by ICAO respecting Scheduled Comercial Air Service, it is a fact that every commercial air service whether it is a regular scheduled or a charter flight excersises in one way or the other some kind of "freemdoms" over a nation´s sovereign air space or market. Therefore we should accept the fact that in practical terms even charter flights do excersise some kind of traffic right to operate, regardless that those rights are granted in reciprocity or not. I am familiar with the inner workings of charter flight permission granting at least in my own country and I can assure you that Freemdom of the Air to be exercised is a factor that´s taken into consideration by the granting authority.
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:08 pm

Speedy752 wrote:
More than likely it’s some type of automotive. GSP is best known as home to BMW X-3/X-5 production and all the associated suppliers.


Exactly that. Tower at GSP told an enquiring crew from another flight why a BA 77W was there and that’s what he said.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
Av8rDAL
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Re: Air Canada 787-9 en route FRA-ATL

Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:59 pm

ChrisNH38 wrote:
Speedy752 wrote:
More than likely it’s some type of automotive. GSP is best known as home to BMW X-3/X-5 production and all the associated suppliers.


Exactly that. Tower at GSP told an enquiring crew from another flight why a BA 77W was there and that’s what he said.


Correct. I work for one of those suppliers and our freight forwarder also has chartered several weekly 747s from HHN-GSP. Sometimes our product ends up on one of those flights if the final destination is anywhere in the Southeastern U.S. (BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc.). Typically the automotive industry is less apprehensive about air freight vs. sea freight costs to meet critical delivery dates for factory outages that only last a few days. In the current sea freight situation, containers are in high demand which has pushed normal sea freight costs to at least 2x normal cost, with delays at ports common. Air freight is even more important when on-time delivery is critical.

Back to main topic, I've also seen UA has been sending cargo-only 787s between FRA and ATL in addition to AC. DL is running a daily A333 and LH Cargo a 777 (I believe). LH is supposed to resume pax A333 in May for summer travel, adding to the cargo airlift.
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