AC4500 wrote:

CDG-MSY seems like it would be a reasonable leisure market pre/post-COVID. Maybe in 5 years from now?

Granted, airlines and airports talk all the time, but it's worth noting that both the airport as well as the city's tourism marketing arm reported recurrent expenditures in talking to AF (and meeting AF staff in MSY) in their 2019 financials.

Pandemic more than likely halted that in its tracks, but still was cool to see. Both sides were definitely doing their due diligence.

AC4500 wrote:

My hopes of PDX-CDG are pretty much gone now that both DL and BA are off of PDX-LHR for good...

Sincerely doubt that it's for good.... they were both willing to accept a direct competitor on the nonstop, to a gateway that wasn't a j/v hub for either one of them. If there was sufficient demand to lure them into that, then it's hard to envision there not being sufficient demand to eventually bring at least one of them back.

SunsetLimited wrote:

Well, DE definitely proved after three successful seasons (was going on its 4th) that there is...or was...a market for a second nonstop carrier between Europe and MSY at least seasonally.

Yep, and airport was aiming for a third. Could definitely see BA+AF doing well on concurrent nonstops to Europe. Maybe eventually even a Lufthansa/EuroWings/Discovery nonstop to FRA along with them.

Three would be an incredible sweetspot for that type of market.

Cubsrule wrote:

BA is not currently operating DEN. Have they announced a resumption date?

You can currently book BA218 & BA219 from the middle of May. I have a reservation for BA218 on June 2.

It’ll be my first flight on an A350. Can’t wait.

Official Press Release:

Denver is the perfect gateway to Colorado and the Mountain West with its beautiful National Parks, outdoor recreation, and growing economy.

This new destination will thus strengthen Air France's service to the United States. Subject to the easing of travel restrictions, the airline will offer flights to 12 US cities during the 2021 summer season: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Denver, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis, New York, San Francisco and Washington D.C.

https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/press-release/summer-2021-air-france-will-open-new-route-denver-united-states-departure-paris

Outdoor leisure traffic is booming. Healthy activity outside, great trend. West coast/Mountain West has potential to have a huge summer season. Love to see it.

I'd think AF is moving on the absence of BA in Denver. It's optimistic to see which pax will be qualified to even take the route in July, but whenever that opens up, they have the ground work ready for an additional connection to Europe. I remember as a CSA for BA here, I saw a a lot of LHR to CDG connections.

This is a really cool addition. Denver is feeling a little less like a domestic hub and is beginning to have some major intl capabilities.

AF not so much taking advantage of BA's absence, rather DY's demise.
I expect similar moves from them in the future. With DY gone from MCO, for example, perhaps a return of AF CDG-MCO.

khaba wrote:

Denver is feeling a little less like a domestic hub and is beginning to have some major intl capabilities.

10 foreign scheduled carriers and 26 international destinations served nonstop (2019).... what more can you really ask of a gateway in a non-coastal state?

It's already second only to ORD in those two regards, followed by LAS, and with DTW and MSP a distant fourth and fifth.
Heck, even if you count Texas as "non-coastal," that still only knocks DEN down two pegs.

trexel94 wrote:

What an awesome surprise! Certainly didn’t see this coming. Although to be fair, I would have thought if any Skyteam airline were to add DEN it would have been KL. Denver stays winning! I wonder if they’ll have some decent introductory fares?

KLM flew to Denver back in the 90's...they beat Phoenix to it. I thought they were still there?

And congratulations to DEN, which, once again, beat PHX to it!

Remember Denver actually has a lot of gov and telecom businesses that need global connections which was part of the reason why UA launched DEN-NRT and now AF DEN-CDG.

LCDFlight wrote:

Denver's remarkable rise continues.

Ski trips for Europeans, plus, Denver itself has big money like never before. Similar to Austin. Burgeoning ultra affluent segment.

Denver is a successful market not due to ultra affluent, that wouldn't provide for over 60 million passengers a year. Denver is successful because of its location and the high level of education of its citizens.

This is fantastic news. I believe AF qualifies for DEN subsidies as a new international carrier. DEN has tried to get AF to come for more than 20 years. There were supposedly advanced talks in 2001 to start service until 9/11 happened. I think AF previously never thought much of starting service in DEN as the market skews more leisure than business, but with no business traffic for the foreseeable future, then they might as well try to absorb as much leisure as they can. I can't help but wonder too if the qualifier on the service will be used as a weapon politically to try to get US-EU travel restrictions lifted.

AntonioMartin wrote:

KLM flew to Denver back in the 90's...they beat Phoenix to it. I thought they were still there?

I don't believe KLM ever flew to DEN. Martinair had some sporadic (seasonal/less than daily) service to DEN in the 90s. Maybe you're thinking of that? LTU also had some erratic service to DUS, and KE had a one-stop tag via SFO. The longhaul offering at DEN was pretty slim around the time DIA opened.

LCDFlight wrote:

Denver's remarkable rise continues.

Ski trips for Europeans, plus, Denver itself has big money like never before. Similar to Austin. Burgeoning ultra affluent segment.

France is the #1 ski destination not only in Europe, but also in the world so idk about a lot of ski trips for Europeans, especially from Paris when some of the best ski resorts are a couple of euros and hours on a train away.

Judge1310 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Denver's remarkable rise continues.

Ski trips for Europeans, plus, Denver itself has big money like never before. Similar to Austin. Burgeoning ultra affluent segment.

Umm, no one is skiing in the summer in Colorado. Hiking, sure. But why come to the Rockies to hike when the gorgeous Alps are right there?

Seems like AF is just looking to catch some market share for onward connections out of CDG.

Colorado is also diverse and has more than just the Rockies. There is desert and semi arid landscapes in Western CO that you can't see in France, plus it is a gateway to the Southwest and places in New Mexico/Utah like Santa Fe, Taos and Moab. Also, it is great to be a citizen of the world and learn and see new things. Would be very boring to always to the same thing year after year.

I agree though, I am sure there will be many onward connections and tourists in the U.S. who would like a nonstop to France.

How will passengers transfer onward? On Delta? What am I missing there.

I am thinking this is indeed to serve Denver affluent summer travel season to Europe or onward on AF. I was wrong about the Euro ski trip story because it is summer obviously.

IrishAyes wrote:

Naincompetent wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Denver's remarkable rise continues.

Ski trips for Europeans, plus, Denver itself has big money like never before. Similar to Austin. Burgeoning ultra affluent segment.

That is a weird statement, please explain to me why Europeans would go to Denver for skiing?

I might also add that Europeans, unlike many North Americans (US/Canada) prize their vacation and holiday allotment and actually USE their time-off to travel and enjoy leisure activities.

In the decade+ that I've worked in Corporate America across several multi-million/billion dollar companies with presence in the U.S. and abroad, it is astonishing to me how many of the US-based employees avert utilizing their full vacation allotment (use-it, or lose-it) and defer to working around the clock as a badge of productivity/honor. For the European-based ones, it's the opposite.

Hardly a badge of honor. Matter of survival. In Europe, if you are laid off, you receive significant notice and severance. Job training. Wide ranging social welfare benefits. And typically nationalized healthcare that you have access too regardless of whether you have a job or not. Get downsized in the US, you get mostly nada. Possibly some severance and unemployment compensation, but you lose/get significantly reduced healthcare as our heath plans are tied to your employer. If you've got a family, losing a job can be emotionally and financially devastating. So you work extra to stave off competition and "stay valuable" to your company.

We are in mid-April and EU citizens are still not allowed into the US for tourism. Many Europeans have less money and time to plan their holidays in the US. Even if restrictions are lifted tomorrow, I don't see many rushing to travel over there.

eastwood6 wrote:

IrishAyes wrote:

Naincompetent wrote:

That is a weird statement, please explain to me why Europeans would go to Denver for skiing?

I might also add that Europeans, unlike many North Americans (US/Canada) prize their vacation and holiday allotment and actually USE their time-off to travel and enjoy leisure activities.

In the decade+ that I've worked in Corporate America across several multi-million/billion dollar companies with presence in the U.S. and abroad, it is astonishing to me how many of the US-based employees avert utilizing their full vacation allotment (use-it, or lose-it) and defer to working around the clock as a badge of productivity/honor. For the European-based ones, it's the opposite.

Hardly a badge of honor. Matter of survival. In Europe, if you are laid off, you receive significant notice and severance. Job training. Wide ranging social welfare benefits. And typically nationalized healthcare that you have access too regardless of whether you have a job or not. Get downsized in the US, you get mostly nada. Possibly some severance and unemployment compensation, but you lose/get significantly reduced healthcare as our heath plans are tied to your employer. If you've got a family, losing a job can be emotionally and financially devastating. So you work extra to stave off competition and "stay valuable" to your company.

Agreed. I've been through it. It's horrible. And, it should not be that way at all.

I would bet the AF CDG-DEN flight will get pushed out by 6 months, maybe even a year. Demand for TATL from both the US POS and European POS are not going to ramp up to save the Summer of 2021. The 787-9 is the right aircraft for AF and this route specifically, but it will likely carry fewer than 30 passengers if it launches at all in its first few months.

Wednesdayite wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

BA is not currently operating DEN. Have they announced a resumption date?

You can currently book BA218 & BA219 from the middle of May. I have a reservation for BA218 on June 2.

It’ll be my first flight on an A350. Can’t wait.

My BA flight on June 2 has just been cancelled by the airline. Looks like they won’t be restarting in May after all.

BA showing A350-1000 service to DEN later in the summer but i am sure it could change.

piedmontf284000 wrote:

US Airline executives don't see much summer travel to Europe this year and I would say it cuts both ways. My guess is that this new AF route gets moves to 2022

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/summer- ... bound.html

I agree. The reality is most family european vacations are booked by now or at least the planning part. With borders unknown dates for vacationers it's a hard thing to book. I think alot of people are getting on the alaska/Colorado/utah/Jackson hole/national park/outside anything summer vacations bandwagon. Alot of those families and people have already planning domestic trips, so Europe can't hit huge numbers. Summer 2022 it might be record highs , but this summer even if there is a surge off bookings later with border opening dates it will be too little too late for good numbers.

Alot of the usual backpacker crowd has invested in van life or car trips for this summer already.

Yahnih wrote:

Does this give hope for San Diego ?

there are already flights to Denver from San Diego:)

intotheair wrote:

This is fantastic news. I believe AF qualifies for DEN subsidies as a new international carrier. DEN has tried to get AF to come for more than 20 years. There were supposedly advanced talks in 2001 to start service until 9/11 happened. I think AF previously never thought much of starting service in DEN as the market skews more leisure than business, but with no business traffic for the foreseeable future, then they might as well try to absorb as much leisure as they can. I can't help but wonder too if the qualifier on the service will be used as a weapon politically to try to get US-EU travel restrictions lifted.

AntonioMartin wrote:

KLM flew to Denver back in the 90's...they beat Phoenix to it. I thought they were still there?

I don't believe KLM ever flew to DEN. Martinair had some sporadic (seasonal/less than daily) service to DEN in the 90s. Maybe you're thinking of that? LTU also had some erratic service to DUS, and KE had a one-stop tag via SFO. The longhaul offering at DEN was pretty slim around the time DIA opened.

I stand corrected...

I probably confused DEN with SLC...I know someone beat us for KLM around 1995, after which Sky Harbor successfully pursued British Airways...

France is prepping plans for vaccinated travelers this year. Did AF take this into account when prepping the DEN-CDG flight?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 276867002/

Not sure if anyone saw French president Macron's interview on this morning's 'Face the Nation' but he said he expects and is working for borders to open beginning mid-May. Vaccinated, PCR-negative Americans should be able to travel to Europe this summer. Great news! I am pretty sure AF consulted with government before announcing this launch.

TYCOON wrote:

Not sure if anyone saw French president Macron's interview on this morning's 'Face the Nation' but he said he expects and is working for borders to open beginning mid-May. Vaccinated, PCR-negative Americans should be able to travel to Europe this summer. Great news! I am pretty sure AF consulted with government before announcing this launch.

He said vaccinated or PCR negative... to require a PCR test on a vaccinated individual is still a huge burden to travel.

Scarebus34 wrote:

TYCOON wrote:

Not sure if anyone saw French president Macron's interview on this morning's 'Face the Nation' but he said he expects and is working for borders to open beginning mid-May. Vaccinated, PCR-negative Americans should be able to travel to Europe this summer. Great news! I am pretty sure AF consulted with government before announcing this launch.

He said vaccinated or PCR negative... to require a PCR test on a vaccinated individual is still a huge burden to travel.

It’s not that huge of a barrier, though it probably is medically unnecessary. Iceland is testing upon arrival. Vaccinated people are being told to self-isolate at their accommodation until a negative test result arrives (supposed to be within 24 hours.) Then the US is placing the burden on travelers to get a test overseas before entering the US, which in my opinion is more of a hassle. The CDC accepts my vaccination, but that’s not enough for US CBP?

With the current administration in the US being extremely cautious when it comes to Covid, I just don’t see the US lifting the European travel ban anytime soon. American media is constantly going on about continental Europe currently being a Covid dumpster fire, they would have a field day if the ban where to get lifted anytime soon. I don’t see this flying in 2021.a

Runway765 wrote:

What the?

If this were normal times, there'd be no surprise from me, considering the TATL hole SkyTeam had in DEN. But launching this when the borders are still closed? How is this going to work?

Couldn’t agree more. This is fantasy airline manager. I miss my USA travels a lot so I’m not gloating, quite the opposite, but the idea that there’ll be unrestricted (no PCR test, no mask on the plane, no quarantine) in July 2021 is bananas. Sorry.

Judge1310 wrote:

LCDFlight wrote:

Denver's remarkable rise continues.

Ski trips for Europeans, plus, Denver itself has big money like never before. Similar to Austin. Burgeoning ultra affluent segment.

Umm, no one is skiing in the summer in Colorado. Hiking, sure. But why come to the Rockies to hike when the gorgeous Alps are right there?

Seems like AF is just looking to catch some market share for onward connections out of CDG.

Regarding connections, you may be right. Emirates or Qatar do not fly to DEN yet, so AF is trying to get whatever connecting traffic out of DEN as they can, especially to Africa and to some extent India and SE Asia.

intotheair wrote:

Scarebus34 wrote:

TYCOON wrote:

Not sure if anyone saw French president Macron's interview on this morning's 'Face the Nation' but he said he expects and is working for borders to open beginning mid-May. Vaccinated, PCR-negative Americans should be able to travel to Europe this summer. Great news! I am pretty sure AF consulted with government before announcing this launch.

He said vaccinated or PCR negative... to require a PCR test on a vaccinated individual is still a huge burden to travel.

It’s not that huge of a barrier, though it probably is medically unnecessary. Iceland is testing upon arrival. Vaccinated people are being told to self-isolate at their accommodation until a negative test result arrives (supposed to be within 24 hours.) Then the US is placing the burden on travelers to get a test overseas before entering the US, which in my opinion is more of a hassle. The CDC accepts my vaccination, but that’s not enough for US CBP?

is CBP even looking for it? I've gone through ORD/DFW/IAH and never asked for anything, its only at the departure airport is the ticketing agent reviewing and entering in information.

kiowa wrote:

Yahnih wrote:

Does this give hope for San Diego ?

there are already flights to Denver from San Diego:)

They meant that they're hoping AF considers San Diego in the future...

MIflyer12 wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

What an awesome surprise! Certainly didn’t see this coming. Although to be fair, I would have thought if any Skyteam airline were to add DEN it would have been KL.

Why is that? France gets 2x the American travelers The Netherlands does.

That's because France is a much bigger country.

Granted, for most Americans who visit France, Paris is an essential part of their trip. However if you're heading for anywhere else in France you don't necessarily have to fly into Paris, you can make that connection in Amsterdam as well. What does it matter if you fly Denver - Paris - Montpellier or Denver - Amsterdam - Montpellier? In both cases it's a one-stop trip. As a matter of fact, should your destination be Chambéry, your only option would be through Amsterdam. There are no flights between Paris and Chambéry, however Transavia flies between Amsterdam and Chambéry. They codeshare with KLM on this route.