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AZa346
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19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:17 pm

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if someone could give me some details on the significance of 19 seater operations in Europe over the past decades, as I have seen pictures of such aircraft in Brit Air and Air Littoral colours, I assume operating for AF. Now we are left with minor operators (Twin Jet comes to mind in France) or operators in remote areas such as Sweden.
I am wondering if operations similar to the ones happening in the US and Canada, where 19 seaters were used by Major Airlines' regional partners for hub feeding ever took place in Europe.
I'd be interested in hearing routes, operators, equipment, time period and any other detail you might have.. and of course anecdotes!


Some examples
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Littoral/Embraer-EMB-110P1-Bandeirante/4683425?qsp=eJwljE0OgkAMhe/y1rMhgiTs5AK68AJNp%2BokCJO2JhLC3R2H3fv9NvAyu3z9vmbBABNSfiEgk9LbMGygpKz08JEs8TFr%2B64L5fmZXVcMTdsH2KI%2BFoNILhdmyS4RR37VKPqvxLiynwXSFCF6qxqnc8ljsjxRZYhTmrDvPwXONN4%3D

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Brit-Air/Embraer-EMB-110P2-Bandeirante/4679357?qsp=eJwljE0OgkAMhe/y1rMhgiTs5AK68AJNp%2BokCJO2JhLC3R2H3fv9NvAyu3z9vmbBABNSfiEgk9LbMGygpKz08JEs8TFr%2B64L5fmZXVcMTdsH2KI%2BFoNILhdmyS4RR37VKPqvxLiynwXSFCF6qxqnc8ljsjxRZYhTmrDvPwXONN4%3D



Thank you so much for your contribution.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:04 pm

They did exist, 30-something years ago. I remember someone posted a flight schedule for Berlin Tempelhof in a topic at one point. There were loads of small pistons and turboprops flying in. Everything from Piper Seneca's to Shorts 360s and Metroliners. Almost completely extinct today.

There is a schedule of flights from Berlin in 1995 here. Lots of ATRs, Dash 8s (not Q400s) and some rare ones like the Dornier 228 and 328, Embraer 120, a Piper from Karlog Air and a Beech 1900:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -nov-1995/

Sun Air in Denmark flew a Jetstream until a few years ago. Now fly fly the Dornier 328 jet. There is a Dutch airline flying about trying to make the Jetstream work out on various routes.
Last edited by VSMUT on Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MEA-707
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:14 pm

In USA, Canada and some other countries like Brazil and Mexico, the 19 seaters were very important especially between 1980 and 1995. I think of the combined fleet of DHC-6 Twin Otter, Bandeirante, Do-228, SW Metro, Beech 1900, Let-410, Jetstream 31/32, about 2/3rds of the 2500 civil versions were flying in the America's in that period. From then on you see most of these types stopped being built and the aircraft being replaced by regional jets or bigger props. Some small routes disappear or go smaller with PC12s and Caravans. 19 to 50 seaters seem a bit inefficient (still needing 2 pilots and some ground staff) for bigger airlines to bother so they either try to upgauge these routes with an CRJ or Embraer or quit. Meanwhile in Europe they were never very important. There were just dozen 19 seaters mainly in the UK, France, Germany and then mainly to islands. Factors are that Europe is more dense with better trains and buses between any cities and villages so flights don't really make sense for distances less than 300 km unless for hub-feed or when there is a sea in between. The USA, Canada etc have more isolated cities without public transport or long detours to get there overland. You specifically mention France. In the 80s-90s there were some Beech 1900s, Metro's and such because their trains mostly went thru Paris as hub. The small aircraft had a niche in bypassing Paris, for instance flights like Nantes-Lyon, Lille-Toulouse or so. Nowadays the small aircraft almost disappeared because of more and quicker trains. Twin Jet can be seen as boutique operation with their relative high ticket prices. KLM had regional partner KLM Cityhopper. After they merged with Netherlines they quickly ditched the Jetstreams and they kept the Saab 340 (33 seats) was their smallest aircraft. Now the Emb-175 (80 seats) is their smallest. Crossair (the regional partner of Swissair) had a few Metro's etc but all in much smaller scale and upgauged quicker than the US counterparts.
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tommy1808
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
There is a Dutch airline flying about trying to make the Jetstream work out on various routes.


Yup, AIS Airlines. I like how they hand out noise cancelling headphones on their flights. No cockpit door is also a plus.

Best regards
Thomas
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:54 pm

Swedish airline "Flightline" operates some Swearingen Metroliners.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airlines/ftl/fleet
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santos
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:11 pm

Sevenair in Portugal operates a few key domestic routes using an 19 seater Dornier 228, I was lucky enough to fly on some flights in 2020.
Route is BGC-VSE-CAT-PTM twice a day.

https://fly.sevenair.com/fleet/
 
WayexTDI
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:27 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Swedish airline "Flightline" operates some Swearingen Metroliners.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airlines/ftl/fleet

How many Flightline airlines are there??? There was a British one (FLT) based in London, there is a Spanish one (www.flightlinebcn.com) based in Barcelona that appears to do cargo flight, and it seems there is Swedish one as well (www.flightline.se)...
However, the Swedish Flightline flies Twin Commanders registered in Sweden (SE-) whereas the Spanish Flightline flies Metroliners registered in Spain (which seem to match your link).
 
TexasAirCorp
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:30 pm

Not sure if this really counts as a hub feeder network, but the Channel Islands (British Crown Dependencies just off the north west coast of France) have seen quite a few 19-seater operations over the years. Aurigny used to feed from Alderney and Jersey into its Guernsey base with Britten Norman Trislanders until 2015-ish when Jersey was dropped and the Trislanders were replaced by Dornier 228s on the Alderney route. They still operate today (however are incredibly unreliable) from Alderney to both Guernsey and Southampton. Blue Islands (formerly Rockhopper) also used to operate Trislanders and BAe Jetstream 31s between the islands, however these have all since been phased out and replaced by larger ATRs.

There's also the Loganair De Havilland/Viking Twin Otter operation into Glasgow. I believe Eastern Airways also used to feed someone with BAe Jetstream 31s into Aberdeen and Manchester from Humberside.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:35 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Swedish airline "Flightline" operates some Swearingen Metroliners.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airlines/ftl/fleet

How many Flightline airlines are there??? There was a British one (FLT) based in London, there is a Spanish one (http://www.flightlinebcn.com) based in Barcelona that appears to do cargo flight, and it seems there is Swedish one as well (http://www.flightline.se)...
However, the Swedish Flightline flies Twin Commanders registered in Sweden (SE-) whereas the Spanish Flightline flies Metroliners registered in Spain (which seem to match your link).


Yeah, I might have mixed them up due to the metroliners flying domestics routes in Sweden.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:42 pm

OFD Airlines operates a few BN-2 Islanders to the German islands off the coast, competing against the ferries. Routes over land don't make sense for them due to the excellent road and rail networks in Germany and the rest of Europe, the islands are a niche market in which they can more or less survive.

What also comes to play is that slots at the major airports are way too scarce and expensive for such small aircraft, therefor they're limited to the minor airports only.

As for feeding the major hubs, in Europe mostly trains and buses have taken over the role of small aircraft. They're way cheaper and more environment-friendly to operate and the slots can be taken up by larger aircraft. Like I said, the road and rail networks are excellent so flying doesn't make any sense. Buses and trains have a flight number on them and can interline with airlines, it's possible to book a ticket Eindhoven - Amsterdam - New York on KLM where Eindhoven - Amsterdam is operated on a bus.

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VSMUT
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:08 pm

Another two current options:

Nordic Seaplanes - Fly between the ports of Århus and Copenhagen in Denmark with a pair of Twin Otter seaplanes. They also run a couple of other routes from time to time. They have seen a surprising success since they started flying 5 years ago, although not too surprising since it is run by the same people who started Maldivian Air Taxi back in the day.

Copenhagen Air Taxi - Fly between Roskilde Airport and the islands of Anholt and Læsø. They typically fly with either a 9-seat Islander or a 5-seat Partenavia P68.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:54 pm

There's also Van Air of Czechia: their L-410 OK-VAA nowadays operates internal routes in Croatia on behalf of Trade Air (ZAG-OSI + OSI-PUY-SPU + OSI-RJK-SPU-DBV). Before this whole corona mess, Silver Air used to fly Turbolet OK-SLD on the ZAG-LSZ run; a deal brokered by hotels on Lošinj Island to fly in pax from Zagreb (45 minutes by L-410, but approximately 6-7 hours by road).

If the OP is also considering freight operators, there are a further three L-410s operating in the western Balkans, E7-MEL (Icar Air), S5-BBP (Lipican Aer) and OK-WDC (Silver Air) running UPS and DHL shipments LJU-SJJ and ZAG-SJJ.
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SASViking
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:13 pm

Swedair used to operate Twin Otters on behalf of SAS on MMX-CPH until the early/mid-80's when the route was replaced by Hovercrafts
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
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jcm165
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:31 pm

I have flown the route LCG-LIS on my way to Brazil back in 2012, operated by Portugalia for TAP Portugal with a Beechcraft 1900D. Great experience!! https://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/84006/cs-tmv-portugalia-beechcraft-1900d-airliner/
 
mxaxai
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:04 pm

Contact Air flew regional point-to-point and feeder routes for LH with BAe Jetstream 31 in the '80s. Usually from tiny airports like FMO or SCN. They were replaced with DHC-8 eventually.

Delta Air, later acquired by BA who turned it into a 737 operator and renamed it dba, was founded with DHC-6 flying primarily from FDH, later augmented with Metroliners and Do-228. Again, mostly point-to-point.

LGW bought Do-228 in 1992 and started flying routes to eastern Germany that eventually ended as new highways and railways got built. Airports like ERF, PAD, RLG, all of which have no or barely any commercial service nowadays.

No point in flying when you can take a train to FRA or BER in 2 hours. Also, many people have moved from rural areas to the large cities. Rostock (with airport RLG) has lost 20% of their inhabitants since 1990 while Frankfurt has grown by as much.
 
AZa346
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:04 am

Woow! Thank you so much for your answer! So it appears that 19 seaters have been used (or still are!) For missions that are in nicye markets!
 
VSMUT
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:23 am

mxaxai wrote:
Delta Air, later acquired by BA who turned it into a 737 operator and renamed it dba, was founded with DHC-6 flying primarily from FDH, later augmented with Metroliners and Do-228. Again, mostly point-to-point.


*Renamed initially to Deutsche BA, complete with an interesting Germanised version of the Landor scheme ;)

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seansasLCY
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:00 am

Wideroe in Norway also used the Twin Otter (apparently at one time they were the largest operator of them) on domestic routes across Norway.

Flugfelag Islands used Twin Otters in Iceland too on domestic routes.

In the UK, Skybus is still flying Twin Otters from the Isles of Scilly to Newquay and I think Exeter.
 
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ua900
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:09 am

AZa346 wrote:
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if someone could give me some details on the significance of 19 seater operations in Europe over the past decades, as I have seen pictures of such aircraft in Brit Air and Air Littoral colours, I assume operating for AF. Now we are left with minor operators (Twin Jet comes to mind in France) or operators in remote areas such as Sweden.
I am wondering if operations similar to the ones happening in the US and Canada, where 19 seaters were used by Major Airlines' regional partners for hub feeding ever took place in Europe.
I'd be interested in hearing routes, operators, equipment, time period and any other detail you might have.. and of course anecdotes!


Much like in the US, flying in Europe over the past decades wasn't as efficient as it is today when it came to load factors. You used to have lots of airports with small historic terminals that saw good size traffic in the 50s and 60s and then slowly died over many decades, and the regularly scheduled 19 seaters sent in from secondary or tertiary airlines where usually the penultimate chapter for those airports, with the final chapter being strictly charter flights and GA. Many operators tried to make these airports work over the years and decades, first with mainline flights, then with "operated for" flights, and then brought in someone else after that.

The 19 seaters presented a lifeline to these airports, giving some larger EU countries a relatively generous domestic network, but they became increasingly sidelined as roads and railroads improved. Moreover, air travel to such smaller airports was increasingly viewed as the domain of politicians and celebrities, people who didn't use 19 seaters as much as they used government or private aircraft. The classical customer base dried up as flights in hubs became super cheap, people drove 100 or 200km (a seemingly much bigger distance in Europe than in the US) to save a lot of money.

It would have been unthinkable in Europe even back then to do flights like LAX-OXR or SFO-STS, people would have been asked to take the S-Bahn instead. For something a little longer, a shuttle bus / train would have been taken if the fare difference was more than say $100, which it often was. In the US, flying often represents the most convienent choice given topography, distance, and the lack of attractive train or bus options. So if you want to do a weekend trip, especially alone, something like DFW-HOT on a 9X C208 can make good sense and isn't even too expensive, while in Europe it would potentially be banned by the legislature if it were reachable via high speed train in less than two hours. While that's a relatively recent move, the latent cultural aversion to short flights on 19 seaters has been there since at least the 1980s and just grew over time. You'll still see routes run in some of these places, but nothing compared to the US.

VSMUT wrote:
They did exist, 30-something years ago. I remember someone posted a flight schedule for Berlin Tempelhof in a topic at one point. There were loads of small pistons and turboprops flying in. Everything from Piper Seneca's to Shorts 360s and Metroliners. Almost completely extinct today.

There is a schedule of flights from Berlin in 1995 here. Lots of ATRs, Dash 8s (not Q400s) and some rare ones like the Dornier 228 and 328, Embraer 120, a Piper from Karlog Air and a Beech 1900:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -nov-1995/

Sun Air in Denmark flew a Jetstream until a few years ago. Now fly fly the Dornier 328 jet. There is a Dutch airline flying about trying to make the Jetstream work out on various routes.


Thanks for sharing that link, that's awesome.

I used to fly BRU-THF on the old Sabena BAE 146s quite a bit and always appreciated being able to go in and out of a smaller airport without the hassle of long lines. It amazing to see so many destinations there in hindsight, even if they were only 1x weekly, same with all the tags and variety of equipment they had back then.
2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
 
dstc47
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:44 am

Not mentioned yet is that Ryanair started with one Bandereiante operating from Waterford Airport.
It was relatively quickly upgraded to 2 Avro 748's. The rest is history but FR have not served Waterford for very many years.

The Aran islands have long been served by BN Islanders.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:00 am

In Scotland, there is still Loganair - "Scotland's airline" according to their PR - offering internal flights in Scotland that include the Orkney Islands services using BN-2, and the Westerm Isles services where they deploy a Twin Otter on the service into Barra, where the runway is a sandy beech only available around the time of low tide. Loganair claims this is the only scheduled pax flight in the world using a beech sand runway. The Orkney flights include one leg between 2 adjacent islands, the flight is claimed to take 90 seconds, although on the one time when I flew it, the wind was such that I doubt it took even half that time from wheels leaving one island, and wheels touching down on the other

The Loganair website is full of interesting if slightly superficial stuff, worth a browse if you are interested https://www.loganair.co.uk/
 
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MetalNeutral
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:36 am

seansasLCY wrote:
Flugfelag Islands used Twin Otters in Iceland too on domestic routes.


Remaining in Iceland, Eagle Air still flies the J32 (along with a few single engined Cessnas and - new to me! - a Do-328) to domestic destinations across the island. In Reykjavik RKV they have their own terminal that you can reach walking from the city centre. A few pictures of the flying experience with them can be found here.

Also, Norlandair flies mostly from the northern town of Akureyri with a few Twin Otters and King Airs to domestic destinations, including the island of Grimsey and even further to Greenland. Domestic flying in Iceland is much fun! :)

Silver Air also flies their TurboLet between the Elba island across Tuscany to Pisa and Florence as PSO routes, and to Milano and Lugano as seasonal summer routes. This is their schedule for S21.

Cheers,
MN
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davidjohnson6
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:58 am

In 19 seaters, I can also think of the following - these routes tend to attract a surprisingly large amount of attention from a.netters and the avgeek crowd

Starling Air in Denmark who fly Cessna 172 aircraft on a scheduled basis. It's more like an air taxi in practice
https://www.starling.dk/rutetaxa/

JonAir fly 10-seat Beechcraft King Air domestically in Sweden
https://www.jonair.se/en/jonair.htm

APG Airlines fly a Beechcraft King Air between Lorient and Toulouse in France https://www.apg-airlines.com/search?lang=en_US

Aer Arann Islands operate BN Islanders between Connemara and the Arann islands in Ireland https://aerarannislands.ie/

Hahn Air fly a Cessna Citation business jet as a scheduled route between Dusseldorf and Luxembourg https://www.hahnair.com/en/hahn-air-lin ... ed-flights

There's also Atlantic Airways who fly AW139 helicopters within the Faroe Islands https://www.atlanticairways.com/en/helicopter

DirectFlight under the brand Hebridean Air fly BN Islanders from Oban within Scotland https://www.hebrideanair.co.uk
They also fly around the Shetland Islands https://www.airtask.com/shetland-island ... nd-service

Helity fly helicopters at the southern tip of Spain https://helity.es/

Penzance Helicopters fly to the Scilly Isles https://penzancehelicopters.co.uk/

Alidaunia fly AW139 helicopters from Foggia to the Tremiti islands https://alidaunia.it/

Oya Vendee fly H135 helicopters between Beauvoir-sur-Mer and the Ile d'Yeu https://www.oya-helico.fr/
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:28 am, edited 6 times in total.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:14 am

Another UK one is Skybus who fly Twotters from St Just, Newquay and Exeter to St Marys in the Isles of Scilly

https://www.islesofscilly-travel.co.uk/skybus/

They used to use Islanders on the St Just route but seems they've gone full Twotter now
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:41 am

French Chalair operates the 1900D on some domestic French routes. They also had a short lived ANR-GVA service a few years ago, for which even the 1900D was too much apparently.
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
AZa346
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:44 am

you guys are coming up with some pretty incredible airlines and settings! I am really glad i started this thread!!
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:53 am

Also Finist'air fly Cessna 208 between Brest and Ushant/Ouessant in France https://finistair.fr/

Heli Air Monaco and Helisecurite both fly helicopters from Nice in France to Monaco and St Tropez https://www.heliairmonaco.com/ and https://helisecurite.fr/en/home/

In addition to the above mentioned OFD, there is also FLN who fly BN Islanders in Germany
https://www.inselflieger.de/

Plus MeerExpress who also fly German domestic https://meerexpress.de/

Diamond Sky fly to islands in Estonia https://eestilennud.ee/#

Budapest Aircraft Service fly Emb 120 in Finland between Helsinki and Pori
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:02 am

Olympic Airlines in Greece operated a bunch of interesting ones.
Namely Dornier 228 and Skyvans to smaller regional (island usually) airports. You can find some interested photos in the db.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Olympic ... 201/411455
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Olympic ... an-3/79298

They have been substituted by ATRs and Dashes now.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:30 am

LuftTransport fly AW139 helicopters in Norway between Bodo and Vaeroy https://www.lufttransport.no/
 
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MetalNeutral
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:50 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Aer Arann Islands operate BN Islanders between Connemara and the Arann islands in Ireland https://aerarannislands.ie/


Are they still flying those routes? I thought they suspended operations after the PSO subsidies were reduced or whatever, a few years ago. Great news if they resumed! I was seated next to the pilot on their Islander while flying to Inis Mor due to a full flight - the most unexpected and rewarding flying experience I ever had.

Cheers,
MN
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MetalNeutral
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:58 am

And I think we forgot about Eastern Airways in the UK - their J41 fleet seems pretty active, based out of ABZ, albeit thei accommodate a little more than 19 pax.

Cheers,
MN
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David_itl
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:32 am

some from the 1980s. Air Ecosse used Emb110s in the UK and there was Metropolitan Airways who operated for Dan Air on routes like Bournemouth–Cardiff/Birmingham–Manchester–Newcastle and Bristol- Cardiff-Leeds-Glasgow used Twin Otters.

Mustn't forget Suckling Airlines that had a few Do228s (and featured on a BBC programme ("Darling Let's Set Up an Airline") - initially operated Ipswich-AMS and Ipswich-MAN which moved to RAF Wattisham when Ipswich was closed and introduced MAN-AMS (yes, we had KLM 737s, BA 737s, EI 737s on the route at the time). They then went to Cambridge, Many a time at MAN I saw their AMS and CBG servcies depart within 30 seconds of each other)

Malinair used Do228 on Donegal-MAN

into the 1990s
Air Wales operated Do228 on CWL-MAN
Interline used J31s on NWI-MAN,
New Air of Denmark operated BLL-MAN (and Esbjerg-Humbesride) used J31s
Regional Airlines of France did Le Havre-MAN on J31s

And in the sub-19 seat category, we have Air Furness that operated Islanders 4 daily on Barrow-MAN (and had plans to operate from Welshpool and Caernarfon to MAN) and a short-lived outfit Northern Air Line that operated up to 3 daily on Blackpool-MAN using Islanders
 
jumpjets
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:10 pm

Back in the day I recall flying with Manx Airlines on IOM-UK domestic routes in Shorts 360 and Jetstream 31s - a type also flown by Eastern Airways [UK]. Eadtern flew the Jetstream 41, but I think they sat around 30 people.

I think British Midland also flew the Shorts 360 on short UK domestic routes.
 
debonair
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:45 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
There's also Van Air of Czechia: their L-410 OK-VAA nowadays operates internal routes in Croatia on behalf of Trade Air (ZAG-OSI + OSI-PUY-SPU + OSI-RJK-SPU-DBV). Before this whole corona mess, Silver Air used to fly Turbolet OK-SLD on the ZAG-LSZ run; a deal brokered by hotels on Lošinj Island to fly in pax from Zagreb (45 minutes by L-410, but approximately 6-7 hours by road).


I think the LET410 seems to have a revival in Europe. SILVER AIR is also connecting Elba with Italy. LitorAli connects Tirana with Italy with LET410 LZ-CCS op. by Heliair Services. And finally with have French start-up Jet Airlines flying from Roanne with LET410: https://www.jet-airlines.com/
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:02 pm

Has Jet Airlines actually started flying and published a date when they will start flying scheduled flights instead of corporate charters ?
 
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DLHAM
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:22 pm

I can remember Air France flying Beech 1900 aircraft from Strassbourg to Hamburg in the late 90s/early 2000s -- thats 1:45 hr in a 1900 :crazy: . I am sure they operated them to some other places too.
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kelval
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:41 pm

In France, Chalair Aviation (http://www.chalair.eu/index.php) still flies with a Beech 1900, mostly to/from the West of France, in codeshare with Air France.
I've just tested it on Paris Orly - Quimper and they still show flights with a 1900D.
 
mxaxai
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:54 pm

Another carrier in southern Germany, Augsburg Airways, or rather Interot Airways as it was called then, operated a small B1900 fleet at AGB from 1987 onwards. When they became a franchise partner for LH in 1996, both the B1900 and the operation at AGB were given up, focusing on MUC and the DHC-8 instead.

Pro Sky, an Austrian charter broker, is selling scheduled flights STR-GRZ with Cessna 525C operated by Smartline Aero. This is supposed to replace OS, who announced to give up regional point-to-point routes last year. https://aviation.direct/smartline-bedie ... usinessjet [German]
 
VSMUT
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:42 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I can remember Air France flying Beech 1900 aircraft from Strassbourg to Hamburg in the late 90s/early 2000s -- thats 1:45 hr in a 1900 :crazy: . I am sure they operated them to some other places too.


If you ask me, the Beech 1900D beats all the full-economy 737s and A320s we have today.
 
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Alsatian
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:13 pm

VSMUT wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I can remember Air France flying Beech 1900 aircraft from Strassbourg to Hamburg in the late 90s/early 2000s -- thats 1:45 hr in a 1900 :crazy: . I am sure they operated them to some other places too.


If you ask me, the Beech 1900D beats all the full-economy 737s and A320s we have today.


It is not only the pitch but also the noise and the vibrations. By the way, I miss those BEH and the SXB-HAM sector.
 
AMP44
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:51 pm

Another one in the UK is 'Isles of Scilly Skybus'. They operate a couple of Twin Otters from ISC to LEQ, NQY and EXT.

Booked on a JS41 to CWL with Eastern later in the year. Quite looking forward to it.
 
MHG
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:55 pm

AZa346 wrote:
you guys are coming up with some pretty incredible airlines and settings! I am really glad i started this thread!!

Unfortunately the whole thread is a bit messy in particular because many here come up with aircraft above 19 seats.
Well, your question was about the past but I guess it´s ok to mention those flights that are still operated by 19-seater to date here in Europe.

I have flown on quite a few (up to) 19-seater here in Europe:
Salair (Sweden) Metro II
BALTIKA (Ukraine) LET-410UVP
Wideroe (Norway) DHC-6 Twin Otter
NFD (Germany) Do 228-100
BSF (Germany) LET-410UVP, Beech 1900C, Beech 1900D
B.A.S.E (Netherlands) Jetstrem 31
LGW (Germany) Do 228-200
Aurigny (UK) BN2-Trislander

If scheduled helicopter flights count as well then I have flown also:
Lufttransport (Norway) AW-139
Monacair (Monaco) Airbus H-130
Alidaunia (Italy) A-109, AW-139
INAER (Spain) Bell-412
(well, British International with its Sikorski S-61 is already out of scope with its ~26 seat capacity ...)
All but British International and INAER are still operating scheduled helicopter flights.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
MHG
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:07 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Pro Sky, an Austrian charter broker, is selling scheduled flights STR-GRZ with Cessna 525C operated by Smartline Aero. This is supposed to replace OS, who announced to give up regional point-to-point routes last year. https://aviation.direct/smartline-bedie ... usinessjet [German]


Well, Hahn Air operates twice weekly DUS-LUX-DUS and during summer season a weekly DUS-PMI-DUS with Cessna Citation (Sovereign) ...
(those flights are halted at the moment due to COVID-19 circumstances but will resume as soon as is reasonable again)
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:23 pm

debonair wrote:
I think the LET410 seems to have a revival in Europe.


Indeed; it's quite something to see FOUR of them in the air at once within the same 100 x 100 mile box...

debonair wrote:
SILVER AIR is also connecting Elba with Italy


At the time they were operating ZAG-LSZ, they also ran LSZ-LUG... but very briefly.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
debonair
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:37 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
French Chalair operates the 1900D on some domestic French routes. They also had a short lived ANR-GVA service a few years ago, for which even the 1900D was too much apparently.


kelval wrote:
In France, Chalair Aviation (http://www.chalair.eu/index.php) still flies with a Beech 1900, mostly to/from the West of France, in codeshare with Air France.
I've just tested it on Paris Orly - Quimper and they still show flights with a 1900D.


Will these route survive, after France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in favour of train service?!
 
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Devilfish
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:10 pm

MHG wrote:
Unfortunately the whole thread is a bit messy in particular because many here come up with aircraft above 19 seats.

Well, should Cessna eventually launch a pressurized, retractable gear, pax version of the SkyCourier, that would be one sweet challenger to present offerings.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRjgTrpKhnw

However, not sure how the price delta would affect a SkyCourier sales campaign across the pond, especially in these tough times. The $6 million figure floated before is daunting enough for the small operators it will be potentially pitched to.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
mileduets
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:22 pm

The Ju-52 could also be listed here. The airframes, originally purchased by the Swiss Air Force in 1939 were sold to Ju-Air in 1982 and operated for sightseeing flights until one of them crashed in 2018 killing all 17 passengers and 3 crew members aboard.
Their airworthyness is still rewoked, bu Ju-Air hopes to restart operations this spring:
(Text in German)
https://www.ju-air.ch/de/medieninformationen/28-01-2021-zahlreiche-schl%C3%BCsse-aus-untersuchungsbericht/
 
mxaxai
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:22 pm

debonair wrote:
Will these route survive, after France moves to ban short-haul domestic flights in favour of train service?!

The fastest train (direct TGV) I can find for Paris -> Quimper takes 3:38h. About half of the trip (Rennes - Quimper) is on old, slow tracks.
The proposed new regulation would only affect routes where the train takes less than 2:30h; very few such routes exist.
 
mxaxai
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:25 pm

mileduets wrote:
The Ju-52 could also be listed here. The airframes, originally purchased by the Swiss Air Force in 1939 were sold to Ju-Air in 1982 and operated for sightseeing flights until one of them crashed in 2018 killing all 17 passengers and 3 crew members aboard.
Their airworthyness is still rewoked, bu Ju-Air hopes to restart operations this spring:
(Text in German)
https://www.ju-air.ch/de/medieninformationen/28-01-2021-zahlreiche-schl%C3%BCsse-aus-untersuchungsbericht/

While interesting and definitely fitting the "19-seater" requirement, I have never seen them do scheduled operations for passenger transport. Only sightseeing for enthusiasts.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 19 seaters in Europe

Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:48 am

Devilfish wrote:
MHG wrote:
Unfortunately the whole thread is a bit messy in particular because many here come up with aircraft above 19 seats.

Well, should Cessna eventually launch a pressurized, retractable gear, pax version of the SkyCourier, that would be one sweet challenger to present offerings.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRjgTrpKhnw

However, not sure how the price delta would affect a SkyCourier sales campaign across the pond, especially in these tough times. The $6 million figure floated before is daunting enough for the small operators it will be potentially pitched to.


You don't just turn an unpressurized aircraft pressurized. That would practically be a complete redesign, so not happening.

My observation is that few of these small airlines can afford new airplanes. They will rely on the second hand market for cheap aircraft.

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