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AC4500
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Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:52 pm

http://news.khan.co.kr/kh_news/khan_art ... ode=620104

Link is from a Korean news source.

Delta plans to launch PDX-ICN nonstop flights in September 2021, operating 3x weekly with A330-200 aircraft.

Credit to user hoons90 for finding this link and posting it to the Oregon Aviation thread, thought it was worthy of its own thread.
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
Ishrion
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Re: Delta to add PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:57 pm

Aer Lingus adding MAN-JFK/BOS/MCO, Air France adding CDG-DEN, and now this. U.S. long-haul is starting to recover. Hoping the reports of PDX-ICN are true.
 
AC4500
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Re: Delta to add PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:17 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Aer Lingus adding MAN-JFK/BOS/MCO, Air France adding CDG-DEN, and now this. U.S. long-haul is starting to recover. Hoping the reports of PDX-ICN are true.

It seems like the Aer Lingus and AF route to DEN are targeted towards the faster-recovering leisure market. PDX-ICN would likely be a mix of business and VFR traffic feeding/connecting into greater Asia, which probably explains the lower frequency at just 3x weekly. I wonder if this is going to replace Delta's PDX-TYO nonstop flight in the long-term and if a Japanese carrier will add their own PDX-TYO nonstop flight as a result (likely JL given their codeshare agreement with AS).
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
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ScroogeMcDuck
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:17 pm

If true, this is great news. DL previously operated PDX-Seoul from circa 1988 until 2001, and at that time the flight hauled a lot of cargo along with good passenger loads. I heard somewhere that the flight made money even during economic recessions.

What will they do with the aircraft for the other 4 days/week? Maybe they could extend the PDX-LHR flight to year-round.
 
x1234
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:33 pm

There's a large amount of traffic from PDX to LHR, CDG, AMS in Europe and HND/ICN in Asia due to global firms HQ'ed in Portland like Nike, Adidas, Columbia and also Intel/HP has lots of offices in the Portland area. If DL isn't getting the yields on the HND flight they should do 4x weekly HND and 3x weekly ICN like the article says.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:39 pm

x1234 wrote:
There's a large amount of traffic from PDX to LHR, CDG, AMS in Europe and HND/ICN in Asia due to global firms HQ'ed in Portland like Nike, Adidas, Columbia and also Intel/HP has lots of offices in the Portland area. If DL isn't getting the yields on the HND flight they should do 4x weekly HND and 3x weekly ICN like the article says.

Under-utilizing HND slots has never worked long-term and UA/AA/HA will apply for them.
 
AC4500
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:42 pm

onwFan wrote:
x1234 wrote:
There's a large amount of traffic from PDX to LHR, CDG, AMS in Europe and HND/ICN in Asia due to global firms HQ'ed in Portland like Nike, Adidas, Columbia and also Intel/HP has lots of offices in the Portland area. If DL isn't getting the yields on the HND flight they should do 4x weekly HND and 3x weekly ICN like the article says.

Under-utilizing HND slots has never worked long-term and UA/AA/HA will apply for them.

Yep. That's how AA was able to launch LAX-HND when DL was under-utulizing their SEA-HND slot.
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:34 pm

ScroogeMcDuck wrote:
If true, this is great news. DL previously operated PDX-Seoul from circa 1988 until 2001, and at that time the flight hauled a lot of cargo along with good passenger loads. I heard somewhere that the flight made money even during economic recessions.

What will they do with the aircraft for the other 4 days/week? Maybe they could extend the PDX-LHR flight to year-round.

This would have to be a 2 plane rotation... not enough time for 1 plane to cover on a PDX-INC-PDX-LHR-PDX line in 2 days, in my opinion
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Delta to add PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:40 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Aer Lingus adding MAN-JFK/BOS/MCO, Air France adding CDG-DEN, and now this. U.S. long-haul is starting to recover. Hoping the reports of PDX-ICN are true.


International long haul from the US is absolutely nowhere near recovering and likely will not be for some time. The long list of domestic AA 777, 787 and DL A330-200/300/900 illustrates the problem perfectly.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Delta to add PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:04 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Aer Lingus adding MAN-JFK/BOS/MCO, Air France adding CDG-DEN, and now this. U.S. long-haul is starting to recover. Hoping the reports of PDX-ICN are true.


International long haul from the US is absolutely nowhere near recovering and likely will not be for some time. The long list of domestic AA 777, 787 and DL A330-200/300/900 illustrates the problem perfectly.


"Starting to recover"

Are airlines relaunching long-haul routes not indicative of the recovery of international long-haul demand to/from the U.S.? More long-haul routes are coming back, such as AA resuming DFW-FCO, JFK-MXP, MIA-BCN/LHR, LAX-LHR, launching SEA-LHR, etc. Next month, AA will resume AMS and begin JFK-TLV.

Most domestic widebodies are set to only operate through the summer. More long-haul routes are expected to come back by the end of the summer, which will require airlines to pull these widebodies from domestic routes and deploy them on long-haul ones. Obviously, there will still be a handful of widebodies on domestic routes until long-haul/international demand returns to normal.

And, as more countries tentatively plan to open with the increase in vaccinations, this recovery gradually increase.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:10 pm

ScroogeMcDuck wrote:
If true, this is great news. DL previously operated PDX-Seoul from circa 1988 until 2001, and at that time the flight hauled a lot of cargo along with good passenger loads. I heard somewhere that the flight made money even during economic recessions.

What will they do with the aircraft for the other 4 days/week? Maybe they could extend the PDX-LHR flight to year-round.


Yes I flew DL with my parents on the SFO-PDX-SEL back in 1990 RT; 727-200 to an L1011-500 outbound, and MD-11 back to a 727-200 on the return.
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:44 pm

Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub. I know they tried SLC-NRT about 10 years ago, but vastly more connections with Korean JV than Narita had. Regardless, good to even here whispers of International returning at this point.
 
AC4500
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:18 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
ScroogeMcDuck wrote:
If true, this is great news. DL previously operated PDX-Seoul from circa 1988 until 2001, and at that time the flight hauled a lot of cargo along with good passenger loads. I heard somewhere that the flight made money even during economic recessions.

What will they do with the aircraft for the other 4 days/week? Maybe they could extend the PDX-LHR flight to year-round.

This would have to be a 2 plane rotation... not enough time for 1 plane to cover on a PDX-INC-PDX-LHR-PDX line in 2 days, in my opinion

Not to mention that as of right now, DL will not be resuming PDX-LHR at all. I would suspect it to be a PDX-HND-PDX-ICN-PDX rotation, which would of course still need 2 planes.
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
ANA787
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:30 pm

Interesting that DL will operate PDX-ICN/HND alongside SEA-ICN/HND. Is Delta contemplating moving their transpacific gateway back to PDX? SEA has been flooded with new competition to Asia-perhaps PDX would have much less competition and better returns.

DL at PDX had at one point 5 nonstop asian destinations: NRT, NGO, FUK, SEL, TPE. There were also plans at one point to add PDX-PEK-PVG and PDX-KIX.

If eventually DL does axe PDX-HND, I could see JL or NH jumping on PDX-Japan with a 787.
 
AC4500
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:51 pm

ANA787 wrote:
Is Delta contemplating moving their transpacific gateway back to PDX?

Whoa there, let's not get ahead of ourselves... They're merely launching a 3x weekly flight to a destination that they already serve daily from Seattle.

ANA787 wrote:
SEA has been flooded with new competition to Asia-perhaps PDX would have much less competition and better returns.

Less competition only brings about better returns if there is a strong, untapped market for DL to tap into. I'm not saying that such a market doesn't exist in Portland, but DL has spent so much money in Seattle, they certainly aren't going to pack up and move down to Portland. There's lots of competition in Seattle because there is a strong demand for transpacific travel. If that were the case in Portland, then we would already be seeing similar competition here.

ANA787 wrote:
If eventually DL does axe PDX-HND, I could see JL or NH jumping on PDX-Japan with a 787.

I think it would be JL given their codeshare relationship with AS (and with AS now in OneWorld).
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
airtechy
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 am

I made that PDX, Seoul (Gimpo), Taipei, Bangkok RT many times in the early 90's.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:16 am

AC4500 wrote:
ANA787 wrote:
If eventually DL does axe PDX-HND, I could see JL or NH jumping on PDX-Japan with a 787.

I think it would be JL given their codeshare relationship with AS (and with AS now in OneWorld).


NRT-PDX has been rumored to be Zipair 's first Mainland NA route for quite some time.
 
Av8rDAL
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Re: Delta to add PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:01 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Aer Lingus adding MAN-JFK/BOS/MCO, Air France adding CDG-DEN, and now this. U.S. long-haul is starting to recover. Hoping the reports of PDX-ICN are true.


International long haul from the US is absolutely nowhere near recovering and likely will not be for some time. The long list of domestic AA 777, 787 and DL A330-200/300/900 illustrates the problem perfectly.


I am sorry, I also don't see "U.S. long haul starting to recover" until borders re-open to travelers in some way or form. DL must have some degree of confidence that they can pay a significant portion of the costs of operating this with cargo at least in the short term, should any flare ups reinstate lock-downs or border closures.
Maintain thine airspeed, lest the Earth rise up and smite thee.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:38 am

ANA787 wrote:
Interesting that DL will operate PDX-ICN/HND alongside SEA-ICN/HND. Is Delta contemplating moving their transpacific gateway back to PDX?

From "airline tentatively adds 3xWeekly service" ...to... "OMG, new hub?!"

Gotta love A.net :lol:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:22 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub. I know they tried SLC-NRT about 10 years ago, but vastly more connections with Korean JV than Narita had. Regardless, good to even here whispers of International returning at this point.


I don’t think DL has the equipment for SLC-ICN given the hot and high conditions at SLC. From what I understand, the A330-200 struggled performance-wise on SLC-NRT.

It the DL/KE JV tries SLC-ICN, it would probably be best suited for a KE 787.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:30 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub. I know they tried SLC-NRT about 10 years ago, but vastly more connections with Korean JV than Narita had. Regardless, good to even here whispers of International returning at this point.


I don’t think DL has the equipment for SLC-ICN given the hot and high conditions at SLC. From what I understand, the A330-200 struggled performance-wise on SLC-NRT.

It the DL/KE JV tries SLC-ICN, it would probably be best suited for a KE 787.

They have the A350.
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jbs2886
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:37 am

TWA772LR wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub. I know they tried SLC-NRT about 10 years ago, but vastly more connections with Korean JV than Narita had. Regardless, good to even here whispers of International returning at this point.


I don’t think DL has the equipment for SLC-ICN given the hot and high conditions at SLC. From what I understand, the A330-200 struggled performance-wise on SLC-NRT.

It the DL/KE JV tries SLC-ICN, it would probably be best suited for a KE 787.

They have the A350.


They also had the 777-200LR then but that route likely doesn’t need the 777/A350 sized aircraft.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Delta to add PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:47 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Aer Lingus adding MAN-JFK/BOS/MCO, Air France adding CDG-DEN, and now this. U.S. long-haul is starting to recover. Hoping the reports of PDX-ICN are true.


International long haul from the US is absolutely nowhere near recovering and likely will not be for some time. The long list of domestic AA 777, 787 and DL A330-200/300/900 illustrates the problem perfectly.


Such a pessimist. There are plenty of signs that the overseas flights are getting back on its feet. I do agree it will take a while, however.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:01 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?
 
Western727
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:50 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.
Jack @ AUS
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:15 pm

Western727 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.


DL's market isn't xxx-PDX-ICN; they're chasing PDX-ICN O&D and PDX-ICN-XXX connections. It's all a part of DL's NRT draw-down and the KE joint venture routing connecting traffic thru ICN. In practice it's no different from NW service to Europe 20 years ago: if you wanted to go to Europe other than LGW, AMS, FRA or CDG, you connected in AMS.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Western727 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.


DL's market isn't xxx-PDX-ICN; they're chasing PDX-ICN O&D and PDX-ICN-XXX connections. It's all a part of DL's NRT draw-down and the KE joint venture routing connecting traffic thru ICN. In practice it's no different from NW service to Europe 20 years ago: if you wanted to go to Europe other than LGW, AMS, FRA or CDG, you connected in AMS.

True. Ironically, DL will be better poised to serve all Asia markets from PDX with the exception of TYO (and Japan), which was their original long standing long haul route from PDX.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:17 pm

Western727 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?

My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.

Indeed, you are: you're wayyyyy overthinking it.

They're not trying to start the next stateside Asian hub, thus there's no reason to compare PDX to the likes of LAX/SFO/SEA.

This is just a 3xWk flight, to an Asian superhub capable of Eastern connections to anywhere, from a US metro with a decent history of sustaining at least one flight to Asia, and from whom DL has been successful in retaining the majority of the longhaul business travel.

That's it. Not really all that complicated.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AC4500
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:27 pm

Western727 wrote:
And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head.

Not only is this a very ignorant statement, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Delta's ability (or inability) to sustain PDX-Asia flights overtime.

Western727 wrote:
Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something

Simple. The DL/KE partnership has created an opportunity to feed passengers who are traveling to greater Asia through ICN. I suspect that PDX-HND will stick around because connecting through ICN is out of the way for those traveling to Tokyo.
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:23 pm

Western727 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.


I fail to see what's so hard to understand about a global airline launching nonstop service to an Asian superhub from one of the most populous cities on the US west coast. DL has had the transpacific market all to itsself from PDX for many years and has gained many important corporate contracts from companies like Nike, Intel, Adidas, etc. There's nothing far-fetched or unusual about it.
 
Western727
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:44 pm

Thanks to everyone for your responses and for setting the record straight.
Jack @ AUS
 
bobsmith99
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 pm

Western727 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.




PDX has proven it can sustain flights to Asia. This is not at the expense of Seattle. As another poster noted- Intel, Columbia, Nike, among others do sustain considerable demand to Asia. ICN is a better connection to flights across Asia compared to HND so it makes a lot of sense. Also, I wouldn't say PDX has a "much less" ethnically diverse population than SEA. SEA's ethnic mix is closer to PDX than it is to LAX and SFO which are true melting pots.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:05 pm

ICN is excellent for connections. Way easier then tokyo. I expect if ICN works they exit the toyko market eventually. They always stay they play on flying........ Fill in the blank. ICN makes more sense now that the tokyo hub is gone
 
Western727
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:55 pm

bobsmith99 wrote:
Western727 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.




I wouldn't say PDX has a "much less" ethnically diverse population than SEA. SEA's ethnic mix is closer to PDX than it is to LAX and SFO which are true melting pots.


Noted; a quick Google search confirmed for me that while Seattle is indeed more ethnically diverse (but not "much more" like I misstated earlier) than Portland, LA and SF both still win easily.
Jack @ AUS
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:11 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


Given there would be connections on both ends, I think they might be able to sustain in a non covid world.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:45 pm

AC4500 wrote:
I suspect that PDX-HND will stick around because connecting through ICN is out of the way for those traveling to Tokyo.

Meh, connecting in ICN barely adds 300nm to the journey, and allows DL Medallions to connect on a DL code to multiple cities in Japan.

That's not to say that PDX-TYO won't stay, as it's existed in some form for decades; but if not, then its loss in exchange for this wouldn't be some kind of detriment to Portland.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AC4500
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:46 pm

Western727 wrote:
bobsmith99 wrote:
Western727 wrote:

My thoughts exactly. Further, DL isn't friends with AS anymore either, so who would feed the ICN flight at PDX? And the SEA native in me knows that PDX has a much less ethnically-diverse population than SEA, SFO and LAX, so this has me scratching my head. Can someone please shed light on the logic behind this flight? I must be missing something.




I wouldn't say PDX has a "much less" ethnically diverse population than SEA. SEA's ethnic mix is closer to PDX than it is to LAX and SFO which are true melting pots.


Noted; a quick Google search confirmed for me that while Seattle is indeed more ethnically diverse (but not "much more" like I misstated earlier) than Portland, LA and SF both still win easily.

Fair enough. Apologies if my reply to you seemed rude (it was not intended to be).

Anyhow, judging the likely success of a nonstop flight based on how "ethically diverse" a market is seems a bit far-fetched IMO. I don't think we're really going to know how well this flight performs for DL (as well as PDX-HND if it sticks around) until corporate traffic begins to recover, whether that's in 6 months from now or in 4-5 years from now.
Next:
AS: PDX-DEN-PDX
FI: PDX-KEF-PDX
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:23 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I expect if ICN works they exit the toyko market eventually.


The thing Tokyo still has going for it is that it's a big O&D market from PDX. Looking at Intel as an example, there are all kinds of semiconductor suppliers in Japan that likely generate some traffic on the PDX-TYO flight. The biggest threat to PDX-HND on DL would be if JL were to enter the market at better frequency than DL.
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NYCVIE
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:36 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


Given there would be connections on both ends, I think they might be able to sustain in a non covid world.


There isn't a real high value market in SLC-Asia to profitably sustain a nonstop particularly given that if DL would be flying it, it would either be weight restricted (A330) or too much plane (A350). The vast majority of connections from the region with valuable O&D to Asia can just be sent through SEA, LAX, and even MSP which all have much higher O&D already supporting their flights. SLC-ICN would just be filled with double connects on both ends so doesn't really make sense.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:48 pm

FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I expect if ICN works they exit the toyko market eventually.


The thing Tokyo still has going for it is that it's a big O&D market from PDX. Looking at Intel as an example, there are all kinds of semiconductor suppliers in Japan that likely generate some traffic on the PDX-TYO flight. The biggest threat to PDX-HND on DL would be if JL were to enter the market at better frequency than DL.


It is, but isn’t DL more or less the carrier of choice even without a nonstop unless or until someone else enters the market nonstop? ICN is far and away the most sensible connecting point and is probably superior to either Tokyo airport for most connections to secondary Japan too.
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RWA380
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:59 pm

AC4500 wrote:
http://news.khan.co.kr/kh_news/khan_art_view.html?artid=202104181034001&code=620104

Link is from a Korean news source.

Delta plans to launch PDX-ICN nonstop flights in September 2021, operating 3x weekly with A330-200 aircraft.

Credit to user hoons90 for finding this link and posting it to the Oregon Aviation thread, thought it was worthy of its own thread.


Glad this is out, this was going to happen at some point, it just got delayed. This is the obvious link that allows DL to really offer Asia to Portland, as soon as things ramp up, I hope it's daily. The lack of a slot was the reason KE/DL had not offered this earlier. I am sure KE has more flexibility in slot restrictions currently.

x1234 wrote:
There's a large amount of traffic from PDX to LHR, CDG, AMS in Europe and HND/ICN in Asia due to global firms HQ'ed in Portland like Nike, Adidas, Columbia and also Intel/HP has lots of offices in the Portland area. If DL isn't getting the yields on the HND flight they should do 4x weekly HND and 3x weekly ICN like the article says.


Even back in the 90's, SEL made better money than any other Asia destination. SEL is ripe for a massive connecting hub to Asia, but Portlands strongest ties are with Japan. With a strong Chinese presence as well. I am sure DL will do well with ICN, I'd be surprised if HND starts later than the spring 2022, if they can hold the slot that long, IDK.

ANA787 wrote:
Interesting that DL will operate PDX-ICN/HND alongside SEA-ICN/HND. Is Delta contemplating moving their transpacific gateway back to PDX? SEA has been flooded with new competition to Asia-perhaps PDX would have much less competition and better returns.

DL at PDX had at one point 5 nonstop asian destinations: NRT, NGO, FUK, SEL, TPE. There were also plans at one point to add PDX-PEK-PVG and PDX-KIX.

If eventually DL does axe PDX-HND, I could see JL or NH jumping on PDX-Japan with a 787.


Bet it'll be ZipAir, the low end JL brand. They have HNL already & they had indicated PDX would be their first lower 48 cities. They want to compete with JL in leisure markets like HNL, but they want to use ZipAir as a way of maturing a market to then be handed to JL 787's. ZipAir has obtained 788's from JL already, I think they fly to BKK as well, hubbed at Narita.

But things have changed since Covid, so if those plans are still on, IDK. If DL leaves, expect JL or ZP to fly the route shortly after, but it'll be from NRT almost certainly.
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onwFan
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:01 pm

FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I expect if ICN works they exit the toyko market eventually.


The thing Tokyo still has going for it is that it's a big O&D market from PDX. Looking at Intel as an example, there are all kinds of semiconductor suppliers in Japan that likely generate some traffic on the PDX-TYO flight. The biggest threat to PDX-HND on DL would be if JL were to enter the market at better frequency than DL.

I doubt that business demand is coming back anytime soon. Given that PDX-TYO has not flown in two years (and many of their HND slots are still not fully utilized), it just doesn’t add up that DL would announce PDX-ICN. There is just no traffic for a 5x weekly PDX-HND on top of a 3x weekly PDX-ICN, especially this year.

Thinking from DL’s point of view, there is just no way to justify flying PDX-HND anytime in the near future. At the same time they don’t want to lose PDX TPAC customers to oneworld. PDX-ICN is the answer, it is as simple as that.
 
jplatts
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:28 pm

FSDan wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I expect if ICN works they exit the toyko market eventually.


The thing Tokyo still has going for it is that it's a big O&D market from PDX. Looking at Intel as an example, there are all kinds of semiconductor suppliers in Japan that likely generate some traffic on the PDX-TYO flight. The biggest threat to PDX-HND on DL would be if JL were to enter the market at better frequency than DL.


JL still offers connections onto its SEA-NRT nonstop flights from AS's PDX-SEA nonstop flights, and DL still offers connections onto its SEA-HND nonstop flights from PDX.

In addition, JL also offers connections onto JL/GK flights out of NRT from JL's SEA-NRT flights, whereas DL does not codeshare with any Japanese airlines.

While DL previously considered codesharing with BC, it might make sense for DL to codeshare with BC with
(a) BC having nonstop service out of HND to some Japanese destinations that DL doesn't serve nonstop from the U.S.,
(b) DL not currently codesharing with any Japanese airlines,
(c) DL having some FF's in the U.S. who would avoid other airlines such as AA, UA, JL, or NH whenever possible, and
(d) a DL-BC codeshare would allow DL to be more competitive against AA/AS/JL and UA/NH, especially in the SEA, LAX, and NYC markets.
 
alfa164
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
JL still offers connections onto its SEA-NRT nonstop flights from AS's PDX-SEA nonstop flights, and DL still offers connections onto its SEA-HND nonstop flights from PDX. In addition, JL also offers connections onto JL/GK flights out of NRT from JL's SEA-NRT flights, whereas DL does not codeshare with any Japanese airlines. While DL previously considered codesharing with BC, it might make sense for DL to codeshare with BC with
(a) BC having nonstop service out of HND to some Japanese destinations that DL doesn't serve nonstop from the U.S.,
(b) DL not currently codesharing with any Japanese airlines,
(c) DL having some FF's in the U.S. who would avoid other airlines such as AA, UA, JL, or NH whenever possible, and
(d) a DL-BC codeshare would allow DL to be more competitive against AA/AS/JL and UA/NH, especially in the SEA, LAX, and NYC markets.


Skymark does offer a few intra-Japan connections, but I doubt they generate much of an increase in traffic from the USA. Their website shows, from Haneda:

Sapporo(New Chitose)・Kobe・Fukuoka・Nagasaki・Kagoshima・Naha・Miyako(Shimojishima) *Flight to Nagasaki via Kobe

Not exactly high-demand destinations, and I would guess an interline agreement would suffice for the limited travel that occurs.


https://www.skymark.co.jp/en/dom_network/
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NW747
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:30 pm

ANA787 wrote:

If eventually DL does axe PDX-HND, I could see JL or NH jumping on PDX-Japan with a 787.


Bet it'll be ZipAir, the low end JL brand. They have HNL already & they had indicated PDX would be their first lower 48 cities. They want to compete with JL in leisure markets like HNL, but they want to use ZipAir as a way of maturing a market to then be handed to JL 787's. ZipAir has obtained 788's from JL already, I think they fly to BKK as well, hubbed at Narita. [/quote]

This makes the most sense. I recall seeing earlier confirmation of ZipAirs interest in the Portland market. I don’t recall seeing anything similar from JL or NH.

Has Delta officially confirmed this new route?
 
Deltran757
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:44 pm

Not officially confirm yet, but it appears the flight is operating on Mondays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. With the return being Tuesdays, Fridays, and Sundays.
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kavok
Posts: 924
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:49 pm

It is importation note that due to slot restrictions, DL is effectively the only airline that could fly PDX-HND. Any other airline flying PDX-Japan would be relegated to the less desirable NRT. (And to be clear, yes technically JL/ANA could fly PDX-HND, but to do so would require them to give up one of their other more lucrative US markets from HND, which they won’t do). Given the very limited number of US-HND slots, it is effectively Delta or bust in terms of PDX-HND service.

If anything, a PDX-ICN may benefit DLs PDX-HND, as it provides the Portland flyer another restored chose DL. A DL PDX-ICN flight targets an entirely different passenger base than PDX-HND, so each route should be considered on its own merits, and not as an either/or situation.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:47 am

bfitzflyer wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Surprised they would not connect SLC to ICN instead given it is a hub.

SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


Given there would be connections on both ends, I think they might be able to sustain in a non covid world.

The connections at the SLC end will be very minimal. Those connections will not warrant a nonstop flight to ICN. There is no O&D to support a nonstop flight. What areas of the country will find it more convenient to connect through SLC over SEA, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK or ATL?
DL has the most of the country covered for ICN traffic with current DL/KE service to those hubs.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 272
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:31 am

DTWLAX wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
SLC does not have the O&D to sustain SLC-ICN. And connections are best routed through SEA, LAX, DTW, ATL and MSP?


Given there would be connections on both ends, I think they might be able to sustain in a non covid world.

The connections at the SLC end will be very minimal. Those connections will not warrant a nonstop flight to ICN. There is no O&D to support a nonstop flight. What areas of the country will find it more convenient to connect through SLC over SEA, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK or ATL?
DL has the most of the country covered for ICN traffic with current DL/KE service to those hubs.


You make great points. However, DL's CEO, President, and VP Network have mentioned the route on many occasions as a planned route for the new SLC (then COVID hit). SLC airport planning meetings have brought it up several times, even as early as last year. IIRC talks about the runway and handling a 330-900 loaded for a new route to ICN.

Again, you bring up valid concerns. But there's definitely been work going on behind the scenes to get this route prepared to launch. We'll see what happens.
 
pdxav8r
Posts: 263
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Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:41 am

kavok wrote:

If anything, a PDX-ICN may benefit DLs PDX-HND, as it provides the Portland flyer another restored chose DL. A DL PDX-ICN flight targets an entirely different passenger base than PDX-HND, so each route should be considered on its own merits, and not as an either/or situation.


Ding Ding! The PDX TYO market, like all intl markets will take time to recover. However, ZIP was considering PDX when DL already had their N/S. Japan is a large O&D market/trade partner, probably the largest Asian destination from PDX. PDX will not be without a TYO flight for long, regardless of if it is NRT or HND.

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