Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
onwFan
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 7:28 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Delta has been playing defense in SEA ever since the AA/AS tie-up and AS joining OW. Just look at SEA-LHR this year...DL had abandoned it and only restarted it when AA did. Now my sense is that DL worries about AA launching SEA-ICN to compliment DFW-ICN and doesn’t want to risk losing out all the passengers they funnel up from PDX to AS/AA so they’re launching n/s PDX-ICN to guarantee as much % of passenger traffic they can. I believe for DL this will be a loss leader. If PDX was capable of sustaining TYO & Seoul service why didn’t it have it in the golden days (pre-pandemic 2010-2020)? This is just DL doing whatever it can to protect its investment in the PNW as its Asian hub.

Feel free to fire away as I know it’s going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I just don’t see how this is profitable for DL.

I don’t think DL worries whether AA will launch SEA-ICN. Both DL and KE fly the route and combined with the OZ merger, AA does not stand much chance on the route. DL is almost certainly only worried about JL/Zipair launching PDX-TYO. Loyalty to Japanese airlines and connections beyond TYO is sufficient to sway a lot of customers away from DL’s PDX-HND.

It is to be noted that PDX-NRT did not even fly daily for most of its life. It doesn’t make sense that DL will suddenly be able to sustain 2x daily TPAC flights out of PDX, especially anytime in the near future with ever-depressed demand. I will refrain from reiterating the obvious...
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3408
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 7:41 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Delta has been playing defense in SEA ever since the AA/AS tie-up and AS joining OW. Just look at SEA-LHR this year...DL had abandoned it and only restarted it when AA did. Now my sense is that DL worries about AA launching SEA-ICN to compliment DFW-ICN and doesn’t want to risk losing out all the passengers they funnel up from PDX to AS/AA so they’re launching n/s PDX-ICN to guarantee as much % of passenger traffic they can. I believe for DL this will be a loss leader. If PDX was capable of sustaining TYO & Seoul service why didn’t it have it in the golden days (pre-pandemic 2010-2020)? This is just DL doing whatever it can to protect its investment in the PNW as its Asian hub.

Feel free to fire away as I know it’s going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I just don’t see how this is profitable for DL.


Like your prior post, you completely ignore JVs - which are rev shares between carriers. For all practical (and financial) purposes SEA-LHR on VS is DL. Same with AMS and KLM as well as ICN and KE. DL is not worried about SEA-ICN on AA, DL has flights, KE and Asiana (soon to be a subsidiary of KE).

Re: PDX, pre-pandemic KE/DL JV was in its infancy and DL was still flying NRT (meaning, passengers who wanted HND connected elsewhere). Its very likely these flights are supported by corporate contracts and DL is making a preemptory move against other carriers moving in.
 
onwFan
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:02 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Delta has been playing defense in SEA ever since the AA/AS tie-up and AS joining OW. Just look at SEA-LHR this year...DL had abandoned it and only restarted it when AA did. Now my sense is that DL worries about AA launching SEA-ICN to compliment DFW-ICN and doesn’t want to risk losing out all the passengers they funnel up from PDX to AS/AA so they’re launching n/s PDX-ICN to guarantee as much % of passenger traffic they can. I believe for DL this will be a loss leader. If PDX was capable of sustaining TYO & Seoul service why didn’t it have it in the golden days (pre-pandemic 2010-2020)? This is just DL doing whatever it can to protect its investment in the PNW as its Asian hub.

Feel free to fire away as I know it’s going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I just don’t see how this is profitable for DL.


Like your prior post, you completely ignore JVs - which are rev shares between carriers. For all practical (and financial) purposes SEA-LHR on VS is DL. Same with AMS and KLM as well as ICN and KE. DL is not worried about SEA-ICN on AA, DL has flights, KE and Asiana (soon to be a subsidiary of KE).

VS has not flown SEA-LHR anytime since the pandemic started. Neither has AF. KL does not fly to SEA. So I believe the poster is justified in saying that DL is playing defense in SEA. For e.g., as others have pointed out, DL has not resumed DTW/MSP-LHR which were long-standing monopoly routes. All that DL sees as essential is a 1x daily SEA-AMS and anything else appears to be a response to OW growth.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6304
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:05 pm

ANA787 wrote:
Looks like DL intends to fly PDX-ICN daily in Spring 2022. The most recent schedule update has both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN at daily from March 26,2022.


Pretty sure it is an error, it will probably get reverted back by the fall, usually the less than daily TATL/TPAC flights show as daily for April around this time. It used to happen with IND-CDG

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Delta has been playing defense in SEA ever since the AA/AS tie-up and AS joining OW. Just look at SEA-LHR this year...DL had abandoned it and only restarted it when AA did. Now my sense is that DL worries about AA launching SEA-ICN to compliment DFW-ICN and doesn’t want to risk losing out all the passengers they funnel up from PDX to AS/AA so they’re launching n/s PDX-ICN to guarantee as much % of passenger traffic they can. I believe for DL this will be a loss leader. If PDX was capable of sustaining TYO & Seoul service why didn’t it have it in the golden days (pre-pandemic 2010-2020)? This is just DL doing whatever it can to protect its investment in the PNW as its Asian hub.

Feel free to fire away as I know it’s going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I just don’t see how this is profitable for DL.


PDX-East Asia was 502 PDEW according to the filing in 2019, even if TPAC traffic were to return to 2019 levels in 2022 it seems like it would be extremely difficult for both to operate daily.
 
Lootess
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:08 pm

Delta had SEA-LHR first and then handed it over to VS. It was never really abandoned. Part of brand/metal changes they sometimes made just like with LAX and other places.

DL SEA-ICN does well enough on it's own and with PDX-NRT no longer available for connections, having ICN makes perfect sense.

Korean Air still has a frequent flier partnership with Alaska, they just don't codeshare. It's got to be an awkward one now, because when KE-DL were having a hissy fit you'd see their partner ads in Alaska's inflight magazine.
 
onwFan
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:26 pm

Lootess wrote:
Korean Air still has a frequent flier partnership with Alaska, they just don't codeshare. It's got to be an awkward one now, because when KE-DL were having a hissy fit you'd see their partner ads in Alaska's inflight magazine.

KE still also codeshares with AS on almost all routes out of SEA (including those flown by DL). This was part of their major codeshare expansion with AS during the height of the DL/KE spat.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3408
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:38 pm

onwFan wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Delta has been playing defense in SEA ever since the AA/AS tie-up and AS joining OW. Just look at SEA-LHR this year...DL had abandoned it and only restarted it when AA did. Now my sense is that DL worries about AA launching SEA-ICN to compliment DFW-ICN and doesn’t want to risk losing out all the passengers they funnel up from PDX to AS/AA so they’re launching n/s PDX-ICN to guarantee as much % of passenger traffic they can. I believe for DL this will be a loss leader. If PDX was capable of sustaining TYO & Seoul service why didn’t it have it in the golden days (pre-pandemic 2010-2020)? This is just DL doing whatever it can to protect its investment in the PNW as its Asian hub.

Feel free to fire away as I know it’s going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I just don’t see how this is profitable for DL.


Like your prior post, you completely ignore JVs - which are rev shares between carriers. For all practical (and financial) purposes SEA-LHR on VS is DL. Same with AMS and KLM as well as ICN and KE. DL is not worried about SEA-ICN on AA, DL has flights, KE and Asiana (soon to be a subsidiary of KE).

VS has not flown SEA-LHR anytime since the pandemic started. Neither has AF. KL does not fly to SEA. So I believe the poster is justified in saying that DL is playing defense in SEA. For e.g., as others have pointed out, DL has not resumed DTW/MSP-LHR which were long-standing monopoly routes. All that DL sees as essential is a 1x daily SEA-AMS and anything else appears to be a response to OW growth.


His prior post referenced AMS flights. Regardless, perhaps LHR is defense, but SEA has been critical for TPAC flights and DL has always been strong internationally in SEA so I don't see how you can broadly state DL is playing defense and worried.
 
Lootess
Posts: 712
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:47 pm

onwFan wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Korean Air still has a frequent flier partnership with Alaska, they just don't codeshare. It's got to be an awkward one now, because when KE-DL were having a hissy fit you'd see their partner ads in Alaska's inflight magazine.

KE still also codeshares with AS on almost all routes out of SEA (including those flown by DL). This was part of their major codeshare expansion with AS during the height of the DL/KE spat.


It doesn't look like all routes from what I see anymore, but niche domestic routes that only AS flies from SEA, yes. Looks like they would rather codeshare with AC for those short-hop Canada routes.

ICN-ALW, AS SEA-ALW
ICN-YLW, AC YVR-YLW
ICN-KTN, DL SEA-KTN
ICN-SIT, DL SEA-SIT
ICN-PDX, DL LAX-PDX, AS SFO-PDX,
ICN-BOI, AS SFO-BOI, DL LAX-BOI, AA DFW-BOI are codeshare options.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1819
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 8:55 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Like your prior post, you completely ignore JVs - which are rev shares between carriers. For all practical (and financial) purposes SEA-LHR on VS is DL. Same with AMS and KLM as well as ICN and KE. DL is not worried about SEA-ICN on AA, DL has flights, KE and Asiana (soon to be a subsidiary of KE).

VS has not flown SEA-LHR anytime since the pandemic started. Neither has AF. KL does not fly to SEA. So I believe the poster is justified in saying that DL is playing defense in SEA. For e.g., as others have pointed out, DL has not resumed DTW/MSP-LHR which were long-standing monopoly routes. All that DL sees as essential is a 1x daily SEA-AMS and anything else appears to be a response to OW growth.


His prior post referenced AMS flights. Regardless, perhaps LHR is defense, but SEA has been critical for TPAC flights and DL has always been strong internationally in SEA so I don't see how you can broadly state DL is playing defense and worried.


And what about my previous post re: AMS did I misspeak about JV’s? The only thing I misspoke was saying perhaps SEA-DUB might be larger than AMS for O&D. Nothing about JVs
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5915
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 9:31 pm

AC4500 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Maybe DL will put the A332 on the PDX-SEA route...LOL! I think SEA is still an Airbus maintenance base for DL.

That would be hilarious... :lol: I'd book that flight just for the heck of it... Personally, I would like them to put the A332 on LAX-PDX since I travel this route every two or three weeks, but they currently don't have any A332 routes based in LAX at the moment.

I think it'll most likely be ATL-PDX / PDX-ATL, as that route already regularly sees 1 or 2 daily 767s. It wouldn't be too difficult for them to swap out a 767 with an A332.

When Delta had their PDX Asia hub back in the day, they flew widebodies on ATL-PDX before flying onward to Asia.


It was awesome, the L15 then M11 were great business class service. As industry we were allowed to upgrade if in tie & jacket, at the gate. It was uncomfortable if one was flying DL out of HNL or OGG, you stood out like a sore thumb. The 12:55pm departure landed in ATL only to make FL & regional connections, but when I'd go to MIA, I made sure to take it.

MIflyer12 wrote:
AC4500 wrote:

When Delta had their PDX Asia hub back in the day, they flew widebodies on ATL-PDX before flying onward to Asia.


They even flew CVG-PDX with the MD-11, circa 1999.


It was the domestic leg of the NGO flight & also a great flight, I went to Chicago often at the time, because my in-laws lived there & we'd take the DL M11 to CVG & backtrack, it was a better fit than via SLC.

AC4500 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Maybe DL will put the A332 on the PDX-SEA route...LOL! I think SEA is still an Airbus maintenance base for DL.

That would be hilarious... :lol: I'd book that flight just for the heck of it... Personally, I would like them to put the A332 on LAX-PDX since I travel this route every two or three weeks, but they currently don't have any A332 routes based in LAX at the moment.

I think it'll most likely be ATL-PDX / PDX-ATL, as that route already regularly sees 1 or 2 daily 767s. It wouldn't be too difficult for them to swap out a 767 with an A332.

When Delta had their PDX Asia hub back in the day, they flew widebodies on ATL-PDX before flying onward to Asia.


When DL first came to PDX, flights were via SEA & were L-1011's from ATL & 72S from DFW, soon PDX was part of a circle route & then obtained n/s to ATL on the 757 & DFW on the 72S. DL used to fly a L-1011 at 3;35am from SEA into PDX 4:15am or so. EA did the same thing 20 minutes earlier.

Over the years, LAX, SEA, ATL, CVG, JFK have seen widebodies from DL, but at it's peak the DL hub had n/s flights to ANC, BOI, SLC, SFO, SEA, YVR, LAX, LAS, DFW, ATL, CVG, BOS, JFK & PHX.

AC4500 wrote:
ANA787 wrote:
Looks like DL intends to fly PDX-ICN daily in Spring 2022. The most recent schedule update has both PDX-HND and PDX-ICN at daily from March 26,2022.

Interesting development. March 2022 is so far away from now that things are bound to change. Hopefully that frequency level can stick as travel demand continues to improve overtime.

I really do think that PDX-HND will end up sticking around for the long-term, even alongside PDX-ICN. As for both the flights operating daily side-by-side, I'm not sure how feasible that is, but I guess we'll find out. After all, they aren't going to just give up a valuable HND slot that one of their competitors could easily pick up otherwise. Not to mention the valuable NIKE business that they would end up losing if they did end Portland's staple transpacific route that has been around for decades.


Nike has four mixed Gulfstream fleet G-550'S, 600 & 650, it's for the sales teams to use & the big one is Phils private plane, with it's own hanger next to Nike terminal at (HIO) any of these can fly to Tokyo. But Nike does a lot more business in China than Japan, If we had a non-stop to Beijing, Nike would use it. I see the ICN flight being used by Nike employees going to China.

But DL has always stated the reason Tokyo has stuck around from a non-hub city is because the local O/D traffic can support it, Portland has lots of historic ties with Japan & trading ties with Oregon. In the late 90's there was a popular TV show in Japan, from Oregon with love about an immigrant Japanese family to Oregon.

onwFan wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Delta has been playing defense in SEA ever since the AA/AS tie-up and AS joining OW. Just look at SEA-LHR this year...DL had abandoned it and only restarted it when AA did. Now my sense is that DL worries about AA launching SEA-ICN to compliment DFW-ICN and doesn’t want to risk losing out all the passengers they funnel up from PDX to AS/AA so they’re launching n/s PDX-ICN to guarantee as much % of passenger traffic they can. I believe for DL this will be a loss leader. If PDX was capable of sustaining TYO & Seoul service why didn’t it have it in the golden days (pre-pandemic 2010-2020)? This is just DL doing whatever it can to protect its investment in the PNW as its Asian hub.

Feel free to fire away as I know it’s going to ruffle a lot of feathers. But I just don’t see how this is profitable for DL.

I don’t think DL worries whether AA will launch SEA-ICN. Both DL and KE fly the route and combined with the OZ merger, AA does not stand much chance on the route. DL is almost certainly only worried about JL/Zipair launching PDX-TYO. Loyalty to Japanese airlines and connections beyond TYO is sufficient to sway a lot of customers away from DL’s PDX-HND.

It is to be noted that PDX-NRT did not even fly daily for most of its life. It doesn’t make sense that DL will suddenly be able to sustain 2x daily TPAC flights out of PDX, especially anytime in the near future with ever-depressed demand. I will refrain from reiterating the obvious...


When DL started their PDX hub, PDX-NRT, became PDX-NRT-SEL, didn't even last a year & they separated the flights & it became daily n/s to NRT & SEL. The market can handle the flights. DL has the luxury of also having tones of connections available via ICN that hey did not have via NRT or even less, HND.
 
AC4500
Topic Author
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:21 pm

Update: The starting launch date for PDX-ICN has been pushed back to November 1st.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1276
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:32 pm

Serious question. Given ICN is such a good hub, will there be a return to hub & spoke as intercontinental flights remain depressed for several years? I think it makes sense.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10043
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:40 pm

IMHO, yes, I think we can expect fewer non-stop intercon destinations and more routings through CDG/AMS or ICN. With DL, the effective replacement of 767s by A330neos was probably sending them down that path, anyway.
 
onwFan
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:06 pm

AC4500 wrote:
Update: The starting launch date for PDX-ICN has been pushed back to November 1st.

No surprise there. Based on the seat maps, the flights were glaringly empty, with an average of 1 In J and 10-20 in Y.
 
AC4500
Topic Author
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:10 pm

onwFan wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
Update: The starting launch date for PDX-ICN has been pushed back to November 1st.

No surprise there. Based on the seat maps, the flights were glaringly empty, with an average of 1 In J and 10-20 in Y.

It seems like this route is going to mainly rely on corporate traffic, and there's no telling if or when these companies (i.e. Intel, Adidas, Nike, etc.) will resume flying execs and other employees overseas for business trips.

Any existing VFR traffic is going to be chasing the lowest possible fare, even if that means connecting in SEA/SFO/LAX, etc.
 
bobsmith99
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:02 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:18 pm

AC4500 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
Update: The starting launch date for PDX-ICN has been pushed back to November 1st.

No surprise there. Based on the seat maps, the flights were glaringly empty, with an average of 1 In J and 10-20 in Y.

It seems like this route is going to mainly rely on corporate traffic, and there's no telling if or when these companies (i.e. Intel, Adidas, Nike, etc.) will resume flying execs and oth
er employees overseas for business trips.

Any existing VFR traffic is going to be chasing the lowest possible fare, even if that means connecting in SEA/SFO/LAX, etc.



Given all the manufacturing in Asia by the companies you mentioned- especially Nike, it seems like the ICN flight will be key it's a hub for connections for countries such as Vietnam, China. That seems like it will definitely continue and Nike is just starting to open up its HQ campus so expect business travel to return. The future of the HND flight is one that seems a bit cloudier to me. I get the PDX and Tokyo relationship is strong but is there enough demand for the flight terminating in HND or would the ICN cannibalize some of the demand to the point where HND cannot be sustained. I guess time will tell.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:40 pm

AC4500 wrote:
It seems like this route is going to mainly rely on corporate traffic, and there's no telling if or when these companies (i.e. Intel, Adidas, Nike, etc.) will resume flying execs and other employees overseas for business trips.

Any existing VFR traffic is going to be chasing the lowest possible fare, even if that means connecting in SEA/SFO/LAX, etc.


Almost every route to Asia disproportionately relies on premium traffic for success. In the 2010s, there was overcapacity into the region -- largely by the Chinese carriers, and airlines like TG -- often resulting in rock-bottom fares, especially from the gateway markets (LAX, SFO & SEA). Presumably some of that will go away, but probably not enough to change the heavy reliance on premium traffic.

Right now, DL's long-haul loads, especially to/from Asia, are incredibly poor (for obvious reasons). It's more surprising the legacies are operating as much capacity as they are, than the fact that new flights are being pushed back.
 
bobsmith99
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:02 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:33 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
It seems like this route is going to mainly rely on corporate traffic, and there's no telling if or when these companies (i.e. Intel, Adidas, Nike, etc.) will resume flying execs and other employees overseas for business trips.

Any existing VFR traffic is going to be chasing the lowest possible fare, even if that means connecting in SEA/SFO/LAX, etc.


Almost every route to Asia disproportionately relies on premium traffic for success. In the 2010s, there was overcapacity into the region -- largely by the Chinese carriers, and airlines like TG -- often resulting in rock-bottom fares, especially from the gateway markets (LAX, SFO & SEA). Presumably some of that will go away, but probably not enough to change the heavy reliance on premium traffic.

Right now, DL's long-haul loads, especially to/from Asia, are incredibly poor (for obvious reasons). It's more surprising the legacies are operating as much capacity as they are, than the fact that new flights are being pushed back.



Great point. Even SEA-ICN shows lots of available seats.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3408
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:20 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
It seems like this route is going to mainly rely on corporate traffic, and there's no telling if or when these companies (i.e. Intel, Adidas, Nike, etc.) will resume flying execs and other employees overseas for business trips.

Any existing VFR traffic is going to be chasing the lowest possible fare, even if that means connecting in SEA/SFO/LAX, etc.


Almost every route to Asia disproportionately relies on premium traffic for success. In the 2010s, there was overcapacity into the region -- largely by the Chinese carriers, and airlines like TG -- often resulting in rock-bottom fares, especially from the gateway markets (LAX, SFO & SEA). Presumably some of that will go away, but probably not enough to change the heavy reliance on premium traffic.

Right now, DL's long-haul loads, especially to/from Asia, are incredibly poor (for obvious reasons). It's more surprising the legacies are operating as much capacity as they are, than the fact that new flights are being pushed back.


My guess is cargo is propping up those flights and the corporate customers want access for passengers.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:20 am

If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?
 
MaxTrimm
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:50 am

rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?

There’s already several daily widebody flights from ATL and MSP, and I heard JFK was going widebody this Winter, too. So I don’t think that will be an issue
 
umichman
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:00 am

rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is currently 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on the ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1220
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:07 am

umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.

What about PDX-AMS? Is that a A332? Maybe the aircraft gets rotated from AMS?
 
umichman
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:07 am

DTWLAX wrote:
umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.

What about PDX-AMS? Is that a A332? Maybe the aircraft gets rotated from AMS?


PDX-AMS does not relaunch until March 26th.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1220
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:10 am

umichman wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
What about PDX-AMS? Is that a A332? Maybe the aircraft gets rotated from AMS?


PDX-AMS does not relaunch until March 26th.

Got it. Wasn't aware of that.
 
n9801f
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:13 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Meh, connecting in ICN barely adds 300nm to the journey

Suggest you check that.

http://www.GCMap.com shows PDX-ICN-HND more than 1,000 mi longer than PDX-HND nonstop, an increase of 24%.
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5915
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:40 am

umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is currently 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on the ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.


Nobody can find one flight that connects it to the rest of the network. I'm guessing DL has no idea quite yet. But I can even see extra flights to SEA, except I see no A-332 movements from SEA. I looked at Hawaii & East Coast, the A-330-900neo has taken over to HND & ICN. PDX has the only DL TPAC A-332's scheduled & they'll operate PDX-HND-PDX-ICN-PDX or v.v. but the domestic leg will be as close as is feasible, if that is how it's done until AMS restarts.
 
acavpics
Posts: 584
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:07 am

For anyone thinking that DL is going to make PDX a hub, just remember that they do not even serve BOS (a hub in the DL system). Furthermore, their frequencies from PDX to other hubs like JFK and DTW are rather abysmal (JFK only 1x daily, DTW less than daily).
 
LexPassenger
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 11:36 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:40 am

acavpics: Maybe not worry about what minimally informed posters "think".

















'
 
FSDan
Posts: 3480
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:48 am

DTWLAX wrote:
umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.

What about PDX-AMS? Is that a A332? Maybe the aircraft gets rotated from AMS?


Historically DL has scheduled things that way. I believe in the pre-COVID S20 schedule the rotation was supposed to be AMS-PDX-HND-PDX-AMS on the 332 (and then it would rotate with the 1x daily DTW-AMS frequency that was on the 332). Until the PDX-AMS flight comes back online (or if DL retimes either flight so that a rotation wouldn't work) they might rotate the aircraft in from ATL or another hub.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:16 am

FSDan wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
umichman wrote:

ATL-PDX is 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.

What about PDX-AMS? Is that a A332? Maybe the aircraft gets rotated from AMS?


Historically DL has scheduled things that way. I believe in the pre-COVID S20 schedule the rotation was supposed to be AMS-PDX-HND-PDX-AMS on the 332 (and then it would rotate with the 1x daily DTW-AMS frequency that was on the 332). Until the PDX-AMS flight comes back online (or if DL retimes either flight so that a rotation wouldn't work) they might rotate the aircraft in from ATL or another hub.


What intl routes have the 332 right now from ATL aside from LOS (Lagos Nigeria)? LOS is daily right now and PDX-ICN will be 3 weekly. Is there any intl service from ATL operating that could go to Portland and do the Asia flights?
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6533
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:24 pm

umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is currently 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on the ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.



It is like 1995 all over again. Let’s dust off the MD 11s.

Didnt work then…wont work now
 
Delta28L
Posts: 477
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:38 pm

Shame delta didn’t keep the 787 order. Perfect plane to re/start international routes in this post COVID world of travel
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3408
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:42 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is currently 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on the ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.



It is like 1995 all over again. Let’s dust off the MD 11s.

Didnt work then…wont work now


I won't rehash 2 pages of replies, but this is not 1995. There is a massive hub in ICN now, not to mention the much stronger presence of DL in PDX. You can be certain this flight was requested by the PDX businesses (Nike) since HND didn't offer the connections to the rest of Asia. The route will do fine.
 
n9801f
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:43 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I won't rehash 2 pages of replies, but this is not 1995. There is a massive hub in ICN now, not to mention the much stronger presence of DL in PDX.

(Bolding mine)

Delta operated a transpacific gateway/hub from PDX in the late -90's but not today.

So I question the claim of a stronger presence in PDX today.
 
kwbl
Posts: 455
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:09 pm

Actually, Delta’s pre-COVID footprint is larger than the hub in the 90’s. At its peak in the 90’s, there were about 24 daily flights, more than half of which left between 12 and 1:30p, no Europe service and limited frequency on some key business routes.Just before the lockdown, they were north of 35, with multiple daily flights to NYC and 2 flights per day to Europe (peak season)
 
AC4500
Topic Author
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:50 pm

MaxTrimm wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?

There’s already several daily widebody flights from ATL and MSP, and I heard JFK was going widebody this Winter, too. So I don’t think that will be an issue

It looks like DL will no longer be using widebodies on MSP-PDX-MSP starting in October. I flew one of the A333s on PDX-MSP-PDX in July and was set to do the same this past weekend, but DL switched it to a 767-300 just a few days before departure. The A330 was nicer IMO, but both of them are great aircraft.

RWA380 wrote:
umichman wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
If and when this route starts, will DL add domestic widebody service out of PDX to position the aircraft that will go to Korea?


ATL-PDX is currently 3x767 in November when PDX-ICN route restarts. JKF-PDX also sees a 767. Not clear where the A330 for PDX-ICN comes from. PDX-HND also scheduled to restart in November with A330. Don't see any rotations on the ICN or HND end other than back to PDX.


Nobody can find one flight that connects it to the rest of the network. I'm guessing DL has no idea quite yet. But I can even see extra flights to SEA, except I see no A-332 movements from SEA. I looked at Hawaii & East Coast, the A-330-900neo has taken over to HND & ICN. PDX has the only DL TPAC A-332's scheduled & they'll operate PDX-HND-PDX-ICN-PDX or v.v. but the domestic leg will be as close as is feasible, if that is how it's done until AMS restarts.

If a domestic leg is involved with positioning the aircraft for PDX-ICN, I would guess that it would be the first arrival from ATL, which arrives to PDX at 11:20 AM. If DL sticks with launching PDX-ICN in November (which is honestly doubtful), then I bet they'll change that ATL-PDX flight from a 767 to an A332 for the PDX-ICN flight.

Who knows, maybe they'll change PDX-ICN to a 767. I would prefer the A332, but a switch to the 767 would probably make more sense until TPAC business air traffic demand recovers.
Last edited by AC4500 on Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:51 pm

Barring a miraculous turnaround, I expect the start date for PDX-ICN will be pushed into 2022 - DL isn't even close to filling its incumbent flights to ICN status quo.

Regarding a regular domestic widebody... it's challenging to make money flying a premium-heavy widebody aircraft in the domestic system, so I wouldn't expect regular service -- there's opportunities to rotate equipment through AMS, HND or ICN.
 
n9801f
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:04 pm

kwbl wrote:
Actually, Delta’s pre-COVID footprint is larger than the hub in the 90’s. At its peak in the 90’s, there were about 24 daily flights, more than half of which left between 12 and 1:30p, no Europe service and limited frequency on some key business routes.Just before the lockdown, they were north of 35, with multiple daily flights to NYC and 2 flights per day to Europe (peak season)

The choice of total departures as a metric is misleading.

For instance, nearly half of today's 24 departures are on RJ's.

But during the 90's hub, most PDX departures were mainline, many were widebodies, and several went overseas.

Delta flew to more destinations from PDX and with bigger planes during the hub than today.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3024
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:11 pm

n9801f wrote:
kwbl wrote:
Actually, Delta’s pre-COVID footprint is larger than the hub in the 90’s. At its peak in the 90’s, there were about 24 daily flights, more than half of which left between 12 and 1:30p, no Europe service and limited frequency on some key business routes.Just before the lockdown, they were north of 35, with multiple daily flights to NYC and 2 flights per day to Europe (peak season)

The choice of total departures as a metric is misleading.

For instance, nearly half of today's 24 departures are on RJ's.

But during the 90's hub, most PDX departures were mainline, many were widebodies, and several went overseas.

Delta flew to more destinations from PDX and with bigger planes during the hub than today.


He clearly stated pre-Covid footprint.

Jeremy
 
n9801f
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:00 am

SESGDL wrote:
He clearly stated pre-Covid footprint.

Yes, he did. But it doesn't change the conclusion.

If you compare July 1997 vs. July 2019, you find Delta was about 70% bigger in PDX in 1997 based on the standard unit of production in the airline industry, Available Seat-Miles (ASM's). Unlike departure counts, ASM's also account for aicraft size and distance of flight.

The 1997 schedule was 100% mainline and included an average of 10 daily widebody departures. And it included nonstop intercontinental service to Tokyo, Seoul, and Nagoya.

The 2019 schedule used smaller planes -- about 25% RJ and an average of 3 daily widebodies. Intercontinental service to Amsterdam, London, and Tokyo. But nonstops to ANC, CVG, DFW, and YVR were discontinued.

Source: DOT data
 
tjerome
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:37 am

rjbesikof wrote:
FSDan wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
What about PDX-AMS? Is that a A332? Maybe the aircraft gets rotated from AMS?


Historically DL has scheduled things that way. I believe in the pre-COVID S20 schedule the rotation was supposed to be AMS-PDX-HND-PDX-AMS on the 332 (and then it would rotate with the 1x daily DTW-AMS frequency that was on the 332). Until the PDX-AMS flight comes back online (or if DL retimes either flight so that a rotation wouldn't work) they might rotate the aircraft in from ATL or another hub.


What intl routes have the 332 right now from ATL aside from LOS (Lagos Nigeria)? LOS is daily right now and PDX-ICN will be 3 weekly. Is there any intl service from ATL operating that could go to Portland and do the Asia flights?


DTW-NGO but that only operates once a week departing on Friday, 24ish hour sit in NGO (so they don't leave a crew there for 6 days) before returning to DTW.
 
User avatar
TransWorldOne
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:19 am

PDX-ICN is not launching in 2021. PDX intl ops are currently set to relaunch spring 2022.
 
AC4500
Topic Author
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:15 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
PDX-ICN is not launching in 2021. PDX intl ops are currently set to relaunch spring 2022.

You're probably right, but your statement reads as a fact, which as of right now is not true. PDX-ICN and PDX-HND are still set for November 2021.

The only route that has been pushed back to spring 2022 so far is PDX-AMS. I'm willing to bet that PDX-ICN and PDX-HND will also be pushed back as well.
 
User avatar
TransWorldOne
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 12:13 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:44 pm

AC4500 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
PDX-ICN is not launching in 2021. PDX intl ops are currently set to relaunch spring 2022.

You're probably right, but your statement reads as a fact, which as of right now is not true. PDX-ICN and PDX-HND are still set for November 2021.

The only route that has been pushed back to spring 2022 so far is PDX-AMS. I'm willing to bet that PDX-ICN and PDX-HND will also be pushed back as well.


I should clarify. I heard from a reliable source that DL will not be launching intl ops out of PDX in 2021. Allegedly, an upcoming schedule update will reflect the postponement of PDX-ICN/HND until 2022.
 
AC4500
Topic Author
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:09 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
PDX-ICN is not launching in 2021. PDX intl ops are currently set to relaunch spring 2022.

You're probably right, but your statement reads as a fact, which as of right now is not true. PDX-ICN and PDX-HND are still set for November 2021.

The only route that has been pushed back to spring 2022 so far is PDX-AMS. I'm willing to bet that PDX-ICN and PDX-HND will also be pushed back as well.


I should clarify. I heard from a reliable source that DL will not be launching intl ops out of PDX in 2021. Allegedly, an upcoming schedule update will reflect the postponement of PDX-ICN/HND until 2022.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Then, I assume that the current plan is to (re)-launch PDX international ops on or around the last Sunday in March 2022 (which is when the summer IATA calendar season starts).
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1819
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:56 pm

Portland doesn’t require any int’l service during the pandemic. There’s simply no need for it. It’s maddening to read the same three words over and over - Nike, Addidas, Columbia…..Nike, Addidas, Columbia. :banghead:

Appareal retail is not tech. Portland is not SEA or SFO. There’s no demand for any int’l travel to Portland now or for the foreseeable future. If there were then PDX would have service (even a few times per week) to NRT/HND or ICN. There’s a reason DL keeps punting restarting int’l flights from PDX and JL hasn’t touched it.
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5915
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:08 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Portland doesn’t require any int’l service during the pandemic. There’s simply no need for it. It’s maddening to read the same three words over and over - Nike, Addidas, Columbia…..Nike, Addidas, Columbia. :banghead:

Appareal retail is not tech. Portland is not SEA or SFO. There’s no demand for any int’l travel to Portland now or for the foreseeable future. If there were then PDX would have service (even a few times per week) to NRT/HND or ICN. There’s a reason DL keeps punting restarting int’l flights from PDX and JL hasn’t touched it.


But ZP expressed plans to use PDX as their first US mainland city as they slowly spread to LA, SF or even NY. The low frills JL low cost brand has just obtained their ETOPS 180 certificates & their 787's are certified for all US destinations, they started service from NRT to SIN, BKK, SEL & HNL so far.
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1819
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:37 pm

RWA380 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Portland doesn’t require any int’l service during the pandemic. There’s simply no need for it. It’s maddening to read the same three words over and over - Nike, Addidas, Columbia…..Nike, Addidas, Columbia. :banghead:

Appareal retail is not tech. Portland is not SEA or SFO. There’s no demand for any int’l travel to Portland now or for the foreseeable future. If there were then PDX would have service (even a few times per week) to NRT/HND or ICN. There’s a reason DL keeps punting restarting int’l flights from PDX and JL hasn’t touched it.


But ZP expressed plans to use PDX as their first US mainland city as they slowly spread to LA, SF or even NY. The low frills JL low cost brand has just obtained their ETOPS 180 certificates & their 787's are certified for all US destinations, they started service from NRT to SIN, BKK, SEL & HNL so far.


That was pre-pandemic! The world and int’l travel has changed. PDX is not HNL.
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5915
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:21 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
Portland doesn’t require any int’l service during the pandemic. There’s simply no need for it. It’s maddening to read the same three words over and over - Nike, Addidas, Columbia…..Nike, Addidas, Columbia. :banghead:

Appareal retail is not tech. Portland is not SEA or SFO. There’s no demand for any int’l travel to Portland now or for the foreseeable future. If there were then PDX would have service (even a few times per week) to NRT/HND or ICN. There’s a reason DL keeps punting restarting int’l flights from PDX and JL hasn’t touched it.


But ZP expressed plans to use PDX as their first US mainland city as they slowly spread to LA, SF or even NY. The low frills JL low cost brand has just obtained their ETOPS 180 certificates & their 787's are certified for all US destinations, they started service from NRT to SIN, BKK, SEL & HNL so far.


That was pre-pandemic! The world and int’l travel has changed. PDX is not HNL.


I would be surprised if DL will let go of an HND slot, even one as specific as PDX is. I am sure ZP would start it before JL, but would want it from NRT, would mean a HND-PDX flight would be up for grabs, whose , most of what ZP has done, has gone as planned, pre-pandemic.

Time will tell. but PDX-Japan have enough local traffic, our HND flights makes very easy & short connecting flights to MSP, SLC, & SEA. That late HND flight to
PDX is a relief valve for both SEA & SLC. .

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos