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rjbesikof
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:12 am

Looks to me like they already loaded the changes. PDX-ICN gone for NW21. A bunch of other schedule changes loaded this weekend.
 
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LAX772LR
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Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:16 am

n9801f wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Meh, connecting in ICN barely adds 300nm to the journey

Suggest you check that.

http://www.GCMap.com shows PDX-ICN-HND more than 1,000 mi longer than PDX-HND nonstop, an increase of 24%.

I suggest you pay closer attention to context before attempting to "correct" anyone else.

The post was in reference to getting to Korea for the purpose of connecting throughout Japan, not the raw distance traveled for Tokyo O&D.
 
UA857
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:56 pm

If DL cuts PDX-HND once PDX-ICN is launched, could DL move the PDX-HND slot to JFK? I could see DL adding JFK-HND if they decide to cut PDX-HND, since SkyTeam is absent between NY and Tokyo.
 
Lootess
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:15 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Portland doesn’t require any int’l service during the pandemic. There’s simply no need for it. It’s maddening to read the same three words over and over - Nike, Addidas, Columbia…..Nike, Addidas, Columbia. :banghead:

Appareal retail is not tech. Portland is not SEA or SFO. There’s no demand for any int’l travel to Portland now or for the foreseeable future. If there were then PDX would have service (even a few times per week) to NRT/HND or ICN. There’s a reason DL keeps punting restarting int’l flights from PDX and JL hasn’t touched it.


Yeah but Intel has over 20k in the Portland metro, and they are booming even more during a pandemic. Cause of certain chip reasons.
 
n9801f
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
n9801f wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Meh, connecting in ICN barely adds 300nm to the journey

Suggest you check that.

http://www.GCMap.com shows PDX-ICN-HND more than 1,000 mi longer than PDX-HND nonstop, an increase of 24%.

I suggest you pay closer attention to context before attempting to "correct" anyone else.

The post was in reference to getting to Korea for the purpose of connecting throughout Japan, not the raw distance traveled for Tokyo O&D.

Incorrect.

The original context, the post you quote (#29), explicitly says Tokyo. Portland-Tokyo journey distance increases over a thousand nm if connected via ICN:

    PDX-ICN-HND (5,250 nm) vs. PDX-HND (4,221 nm) vs. = +1,029 nm

Post #29 does not mention other points in Japan. In any case, most journeys to other points in Japan increase by much more than 300 nm when the connect point is moved from HND to ICN. Note: main population and business centers in Japan are east of (and including) Osaka-Kobe area:

    PDX-ICN-KIX (5,061) vs. PDX-HND-KIX (4,455) = +606 nm
    PDX-ICN-NGO (5,122) vs. PDX-HND-NGO (4,373) = +749 nm
    PDX-ICN-CTS (5,364) vs. PDX-HND-CTS (4,663) = +701 nm

To be fair, ICN doesn't add much distance to OKA journeys. PDX-ICN-OKA (5,273) vs. PDX-HND-OKA (5,060) = +213 nm. However Okinawa is a tourist destination, not a business center.

Bottom line is that using ICN as a connection point for PDX-Japan adds appreciable distance, +1,029 nm for PDX-HND, and much more than 300 nm, to most other PDX-Japan journeys.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 14723
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:52 pm

n9801f wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
n9801f wrote:
Suggest you check that.

http://www.GCMap.com shows PDX-ICN-HND more than 1,000 mi longer than PDX-HND nonstop, an increase of 24%.

I suggest you pay closer attention to context before attempting to "correct" anyone else.

The post was in reference to getting to Korea for the purpose of connecting throughout Japan, not the raw distance traveled for Tokyo O&D.

Incorrect.

The original context, the post you quote (#29), explicitly says Tokyo.

So, not only are you choosing to ignore that that post specifically says "allows DL Medallions to connect on a DL code to multiple cities in Japan" (clearly indicating that Tokyo is not the focus of the response), but you're also going to ignore the clarification directly given to you in response to your having gotten the context wrong the first time?

That's very.... odd.
 
n9801f
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:44 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
So, not only are you choosing to ignore that that post specifically says "allows DL Medallions to connect on a DL code to multiple cities in Japan"

Incorrect again.

That post (#29) does not mention DL medallions or other cities in Japan. You bring it up later on in your post #36.

But it's irrelevant anyway. Because as shown above, connecting in ICN adds 600-1,000 nm to most PDX-Japan journeys, including other cities besides Tokyo. Much more than the 300 nm you claimed.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14723
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in September 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:48 pm

n9801f wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
So, not only are you choosing to ignore that that post specifically says "allows DL Medallions to connect on a DL code to multiple cities in Japan"

Incorrect again.

That post (#29) does not mention DL medallions or other cities in Japan. You bring it up later on in your post #36.

But it's irrelevant anyway. Because as shown above, connecting in ICN adds 600-1,000 nm to most PDX-Japan journeys, including other cities besides Tokyo. Much more than the 300 nm you claimed.

I've now told you three times that the post was referring to PDX-ICN vs PDX-TYO, not PDX-TYO vs PDX-ICN-TYO; meant as a reference for available connections throughout Japan.... and yet you continue.

At this point, I've lost interest. Carry on however you will.
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5983
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:49 pm

UA857 wrote:
If DL cuts PDX-HND once PDX-ICN is launched, could DL move the PDX-HND slot to JFK? I could see DL adding JFK-HND if they decide to cut PDX-HND, since SkyTeam is absent between NY and Tokyo.


In a word, No! The PDX-HND slot was given to DL for PDX-HND only. It was the last mainland award given to DL, then a HND-HNL was also offered. In year5s past, IE ... when UA started ORD-SEA/PDX-NRT in the 1980's, the award was for either SEA & or PDX, which UA split, because even then, there is demand on the route.

Portland's sister city is Nagano, Our waterfront is lined with Cherry Blossom trees, a gift from the Emperor of Japan & there are social, business & personal ties with Oregon directly. The Port of Portland used to import lots of Japanese cars, now they are more Korean & the mass or rail lines that extend from here are a huge boon for being a transit hub.

I do think the reality is . S. Korea will become a bigger trading partner, but not at the expense of our Japanese trade. DL is scheduled to re-start PDX-HND, a route they do want, pre-covid it is a premium route, it's not connecting traffic that this flight relies on, but with the latest W. Coast departure to HND, it'll give later connections from ATL, JFK, SEA, SLC & LAX, for even last minute snafus.
 
Tokushima
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:07 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Portland's sister city is Nagano.


I'm always hesitant to correct anyone on the 'net, especially you, one of my truly favorite members, but having lived in PDX before now living in Japan (currently Shizuoka where I just moved from Tokushima), Portland's sister city in Japan is Sapporo (both Sapporo & Nagano have hosted the winter Olympics).

BTW, I came to Japan this time around in 2009 on the DL PDX-NRT flight. The bag tags still said NW!
 
TerminalD
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:14 am

UA857 wrote:
If DL cuts PDX-HND once PDX-ICN is launched, could DL move the PDX-HND slot to JFK? I could see DL adding JFK-HND if they decide to cut PDX-HND, since SkyTeam is absent between NY and Tokyo.

They could move the slot, but it would require Re-award to them against other carriers. Having said that they would be in a strong position for a Re-award since HA has arguably too many slots already and the other likely bidders are in ATI JVs with the dominant slot holders at HND. So I’d say DL would have a 60-70% of being awarded JFK, but it would not be a guarantee. If this RAVN thing is serious they could attempt to get the slot for ANC, but I have my doubts about that whole operation.
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5983
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:33 am

Tokushima wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Portland's sister city is Nagano.


I'm always hesitant to correct anyone on the 'net, especially you, one of my truly favorite members, but having lived in PDX before now living in Japan (currently Shizuoka where I just moved from Tokushima), Portland's sister city in Japan is Sapporo (both Sapporo & Nagano have hosted the winter Olympics).

BTW, I came to Japan this time around in 2009 on the DL PDX-NRT flight. The bag tags still said NW!


Of course you are correct, my shame precedes me. I have no idea where I got that mis-information lodged in my head. The ties between Portland & Japan are there for the viewing. The Japanese garden here, is considered one of the best, if not the best outside of Japan, it's a large & gorgeous garden, being partial to roses & their varieties are some one of a kind, rare & common roses.
 
kavok
Posts: 1124
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:05 am

TerminalD wrote:
UA857 wrote:
If DL cuts PDX-HND once PDX-ICN is launched, could DL move the PDX-HND slot to JFK? I could see DL adding JFK-HND if they decide to cut PDX-HND, since SkyTeam is absent between NY and Tokyo.

They could move the slot, but it would require Re-award to them against other carriers. Having said that they would be in a strong position for a Re-award since HA has arguably too many slots already and the other likely bidders are in ATI JVs with the dominant slot holders at HND. So I’d say DL would have a 60-70% of being awarded JFK, but it would not be a guarantee. If this RAVN thing is serious they could attempt to get the slot for ANC, but I have my doubts about that whole operation.


DL could always re-petition the DOT for HND slot flexibility. I don’t know if such a request would be granted… but they can always ask. For historical context, DL did ask that same question previously, and were told “no, not at this time”… because the DOT had just awarded the expanded HND slots, and likely wanted to see how the situation played out before potentially awarding the US carriers slot flexibility to move as they please. Note the last ask was also PreCovid, and under a different Presidental administration. Long story short though, it wasn’t a hard no, … just a no, not right now. So DL may ask again.

When DL last asked, AA and HA actually supported DL’s request (because both likely wanted the flexibility to move their own HND slots as well). UA objected. If DL were to re-ask, I am guessing HA would still support DLs request for the same reason, but AA would likely not this go around. I am sure AA would rather see the DOT re-award it, in hopes they might pick up a HND-SEA flight.

This all being said, if DL thought JFK-HND was more lucrative than PDX-HND, they could have applied for it back in 2019. DL opted to apply for PDX-HND instead. And while I realize demand is no longer what it was PreCovid, a lower tide lowers all boats.
 
TerminalD
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:37 pm

kavok wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
UA857 wrote:
If DL cuts PDX-HND once PDX-ICN is launched, could DL move the PDX-HND slot to JFK? I could see DL adding JFK-HND if they decide to cut PDX-HND, since SkyTeam is absent between NY and Tokyo.

They could move the slot, but it would require Re-award to them against other carriers. Having said that they would be in a strong position for a Re-award since HA has arguably too many slots already and the other likely bidders are in ATI JVs with the dominant slot holders at HND. So I’d say DL would have a 60-70% of being awarded JFK, but it would not be a guarantee. If this RAVN thing is serious they could attempt to get the slot for ANC, but I have my doubts about that whole operation.


DL could always re-petition the DOT for HND slot flexibility. I don’t know if such a request would be granted… but they can always ask. For historical context, DL did ask that same question previously, and were told “no, not at this time”… because the DOT had just awarded the expanded HND slots, and likely wanted to see how the situation played out before potentially awarding the US carriers slot flexibility to move as they please. Note the last ask was also PreCovid, and under a different Presidental administration. Long story short though, it wasn’t a hard no, … just a no, not right now. So DL may ask again.

When DL last asked, AA and HA actually supported DL’s request (because both likely wanted the flexibility to move their own HND slots as well). UA objected. If DL were to re-ask, I am guessing HA would still support DLs request for the same reason, but AA would likely not this go around. I am sure AA would rather see the DOT re-award it, in hopes they might pick up a HND-SEA flight.

This all being said, if DL thought JFK-HND was more lucrative than PDX-HND, they could have applied for it back in 2019. DL opted to apply for PDX-HND instead. And while I realize demand is no longer what it was PreCovid, a lower tide lowers all boats.

I think the situation with KE was different in 2019. I don't remember what was going on at the time, but DL was not planning on PDX-ICN at that point. I know DL asked for their intra-Asia feed option at NRT to move to HND so perhaps they hoped that was a possibility which would have made PDX-HND more viable. KE also went through some tough economic times in that era when their parent company suddenly had financial problems and the relationship with Delta was on the rocks at one point as well...if you remember Delta was cutting KE ticketed passengers out of alliance perks. I think the timing was just off. ICN-PDX changes all of that IMHO.
 
kavok
Posts: 1124
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:02 pm

TerminalD wrote:
kavok wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
They could move the slot, but it would require Re-award to them against other carriers. Having said that they would be in a strong position for a Re-award since HA has arguably too many slots already and the other likely bidders are in ATI JVs with the dominant slot holders at HND. So I’d say DL would have a 60-70% of being awarded JFK, but it would not be a guarantee. If this RAVN thing is serious they could attempt to get the slot for ANC, but I have my doubts about that whole operation.


DL could always re-petition the DOT for HND slot flexibility. I don’t know if such a request would be granted… but they can always ask. For historical context, DL did ask that same question previously, and were told “no, not at this time”… because the DOT had just awarded the expanded HND slots, and likely wanted to see how the situation played out before potentially awarding the US carriers slot flexibility to move as they please. Note the last ask was also PreCovid, and under a different Presidental administration. Long story short though, it wasn’t a hard no, … just a no, not right now. So DL may ask again.

When DL last asked, AA and HA actually supported DL’s request (because both likely wanted the flexibility to move their own HND slots as well). UA objected. If DL were to re-ask, I am guessing HA would still support DLs request for the same reason, but AA would likely not this go around. I am sure AA would rather see the DOT re-award it, in hopes they might pick up a HND-SEA flight.

This all being said, if DL thought JFK-HND was more lucrative than PDX-HND, they could have applied for it back in 2019. DL opted to apply for PDX-HND instead. And while I realize demand is no longer what it was PreCovid, a lower tide lowers all boats.

I think the situation with KE was different in 2019. I don't remember what was going on at the time, but DL was not planning on PDX-ICN at that point. I know DL asked for their intra-Asia feed option at NRT to move to HND so perhaps they hoped that was a possibility which would have made PDX-HND more viable. KE also went through some tough economic times in that era when their parent company suddenly had financial problems and the relationship with Delta was on the rocks at one point as well...if you remember Delta was cutting KE ticketed passengers out of alliance perks. I think the timing was just off. ICN-PDX changes all of that IMHO.


It was different, but both then and now, I still view PDX-HND, and PDX-ICN as two completely independent flight sets. I agree that things with KE & DL have changed, making PDX-ICN viable now where it wasn’t before. But to me, that doesn’t change the calculus of HND any.

Point being, PDX-HND will be nearly 100% O/D on both ends. DL may add a feeder flight to SLC to bump PDX loads slightly, but once the PAX arrives in HND, they are either staying in Tokyo or taking the train to the final Japanese destination. PDX-ICN is for Portland pax going to Korea, or connecting to the rest of Asia. So again, two completely independent passenger groups. PDX-HND may work, or it may not. PDX-ICN may work, or it may not. But what happens on one is independent of what happens on the other.

And to be clear, on that last statement I am ignoring Covid. Obviously Covid has brought down pax demand to both markets, which is why neither is flying today. When enough volumes return, I expect both routes to launch. But flying one of ICN/HND doesn’t mean less passengers are choosing to fly the other, as again, each flight serves a different market.
Last edited by kavok on Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ANA787
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:00 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:06 pm

kavok wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
kavok wrote:


Point being, PDX-HND will be nearly 100% O/D on both ends. DL may add a feeder flight to SLC to bump PDX loads slightly.


Before covid, DL added a PDX-LAS feeder for the HND flights. Wouldn't be surprised to see that feeder return and maybe even a PDX-SAN or PDX-Bay area flight.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 4092
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:11 pm

kavok wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
kavok wrote:

DL could always re-petition the DOT for HND slot flexibility. I don’t know if such a request would be granted… but they can always ask. For historical context, DL did ask that same question previously, and were told “no, not at this time”… because the DOT had just awarded the expanded HND slots, and likely wanted to see how the situation played out before potentially awarding the US carriers slot flexibility to move as they please. Note the last ask was also PreCovid, and under a different Presidental administration. Long story short though, it wasn’t a hard no, … just a no, not right now. So DL may ask again.

When DL last asked, AA and HA actually supported DL’s request (because both likely wanted the flexibility to move their own HND slots as well). UA objected. If DL were to re-ask, I am guessing HA would still support DLs request for the same reason, but AA would likely not this go around. I am sure AA would rather see the DOT re-award it, in hopes they might pick up a HND-SEA flight.

This all being said, if DL thought JFK-HND was more lucrative than PDX-HND, they could have applied for it back in 2019. DL opted to apply for PDX-HND instead. And while I realize demand is no longer what it was PreCovid, a lower tide lowers all boats.

I think the situation with KE was different in 2019. I don't remember what was going on at the time, but DL was not planning on PDX-ICN at that point. I know DL asked for their intra-Asia feed option at NRT to move to HND so perhaps they hoped that was a possibility which would have made PDX-HND more viable. KE also went through some tough economic times in that era when their parent company suddenly had financial problems and the relationship with Delta was on the rocks at one point as well...if you remember Delta was cutting KE ticketed passengers out of alliance perks. I think the timing was just off. ICN-PDX changes all of that IMHO.


It was different, but both then and now, I still view PDX-HND, and PDX-ICN as two completely independent flight sets. I agree that things with KE & DL have changed, making PDX-ICN viable now where it wasn’t before. But to me, that doesn’t change the calculus of HND any.

Point being, PDX-HND will be nearly 100% O/D on both ends. DL may add a feeder flight to SLC to bump PDX loads slightly, but once the PAX arrives in HND, they are either staying in Tokyo or taking the train to the final Japanese destination. PDX-ICN is for Portland pax going to Korea, or connecting to the rest of Asia. So again, two completely independent passenger groups. PDX-HND may work, or it may not. PDX-HND may work, or it may not. But what happens on one is independent of what happens on the other.

And to be clear, on that last statement I am ignoring Covid. Obviously Covid has brought down pax demand to both markets, which is why neither is flying today. When enough volumes return, I expect both routes to launch. But flying one of ICN/HND doesn’t mean less passengers are choosing to fly the other, as again, each flight serves a different market.


Agree with this, but one correction (kind of) in the last paragraph, the PDX-ICN flight was actually announced during COVID (though it does not appear it will be started for a bit). I think this shows that they see demand from PDX to Asia in a post-COVID world.
 
kavok
Posts: 1124
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: Delta to launch PDX-ICN in November 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:31 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
kavok wrote:
TerminalD wrote:
I think the situation with KE was different in 2019. I don't remember what was going on at the time, but DL was not planning on PDX-ICN at that point. I know DL asked for their intra-Asia feed option at NRT to move to HND so perhaps they hoped that was a possibility which would have made PDX-HND more viable. KE also went through some tough economic times in that era when their parent company suddenly had financial problems and the relationship with Delta was on the rocks at one point as well...if you remember Delta was cutting KE ticketed passengers out of alliance perks. I think the timing was just off. ICN-PDX changes all of that IMHO.


It was different, but both then and now, I still view PDX-HND, and PDX-ICN as two completely independent flight sets. I agree that things with KE & DL have changed, making PDX-ICN viable now where it wasn’t before. But to me, that doesn’t change the calculus of HND any.

Point being, PDX-HND will be nearly 100% O/D on both ends. DL may add a feeder flight to SLC to bump PDX loads slightly, but once the PAX arrives in HND, they are either staying in Tokyo or taking the train to the final Japanese destination. PDX-ICN is for Portland pax going to Korea, or connecting to the rest of Asia. So again, two completely independent passenger groups. PDX-HND may work, or it may not. PDX-HND may work, or it may not. But what happens on one is independent of what happens on the other.

And to be clear, on that last statement I am ignoring Covid. Obviously Covid has brought down pax demand to both markets, which is why neither is flying today. When enough volumes return, I expect both routes to launch. But flying one of ICN/HND doesn’t mean less passengers are choosing to fly the other, as again, each flight serves a different market.


Agree with this, but one correction (kind of) in the last paragraph, the PDX-ICN flight was actually announced during COVID (though it does not appear it will be started for a bit). I think this shows that they see demand from PDX to Asia in a post-COVID world.


Agreed. And with all the effort DL had put in to get the PDX-HND slot, they aren’t going to give it up unless they see no path to profitability down the road. And I don’t think anyone is really certain what the next few years of demand will look like, so status quo it is.

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