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Midwestindy
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Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:27 pm

"The plan announced in February 2020 included 16 new narrowbody gates to be added to Concourse A in Terminal 4. Now, the current proposal includes just two new narrowbody gates and eight regional jet gates added to the end of Concourse A."

"Delta would have an option until the end of 2024 to expand the terminal to 11 or 12 gates for narrow-body aircraft."

"The Port Authority projects the first phase’s new gates would open in 2022 and construction complete in 2023."

The switch from mainline to RJs is interesting, but this tells me DL will focus mainline growth elsewhere.


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https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-new ... expansion/
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tinpusher007
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:39 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
The switch from mainline to RJs is interesting, but this tells me DL will focus mainline growth elsewhere.


The current RJ gates at the end of concourse B will be converted to mainline gates so there is no where else for the RJ's to go. However it seems reasonable to expect that this lull in traffic wont last forever. It seems shortsighted to not just build out to the original specs now while traffic is down significantly so as not to cause more of a headache for pax once they return in larger numbers.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:06 pm

I'm not actually sure the implication here. Looks like on the 1 end, 11 RJ gates get converted to 8 narrowbody gates. On the other end, they are adding 2 narrowbody + 8 RJ instead of 16 narrwobody. So they are going to be down 6 narrowbody gates and 3 RJ gates compared to original plans. They seem to be down 4 gates overall. I can't imagine they will give up any of their slots. I suppose this means there will be less space for other airlines? Depending on how many foreign airlines come back, it may also would reduce their capacity to expand in the event slot goes away.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:06 pm

I thought the gates dedicated to DL's regional operations at the very end of the B Concourse were supposed to be converted to mainline regardless. It seems like the real estate in the A Concourse is primed for a further redevelopment and expansion. It's not a very efficient concourse and has been the A380 gate area for Terminal 4, but with A380 operations dwindling, it does stand to reason that more gates could still be added at A, and not just ones for RJ's, or at least, design the extension such that it can be further expanded as needed. Not a fan of Terminal 4 though have not used it since the pandemic. It was always crowded, the ceilings, notably in B are low, walks are long, and it is not particularly enjoyable to arrive there off an international flight either. The A380 operators at T4 are down to just EK and SQ (if and when it resumes JFK-FRA-SIN and on the 380, and EK if and when it puts the 380 back on JFK-DXB). No more Etihad or Asiana. Not sure there was any other, but most A380 operations I think were in A.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:13 pm

There are a total of 11 RJ gates currently at the end of T4B. T2 currently has 10 mainline-capable gates. From the latest diagram, it appears that the 11 RJ gates will be converted to 8 mainline narrow-body gates. If you add the two new mainline narrow-body gates at the expanded T4A, that will be a total of 10, which covers exactly the number of T2 gates. Overall, it appears they will be down 3 RJ gates with this revised plan.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
I'm not actually sure the implication here. Looks like on the 1 end, 11 RJ gates get converted to 8 narrowbody gates. On the other end, they are adding 2 narrowbody + 8 RJ instead of 16 narrwobody. So they are going to be down 6 narrowbody gates and 3 RJ gates compared to original plans. They seem to be down 4 gates overall. I can't imagine they will give up any of their slots. I suppose this means there will be less space for other airlines? Depending on how many foreign airlines come back, it may also would reduce their capacity to expand in the event slot goes away.


The main reason for the original expansion was the planned demolition of T2.

IMO it seems pretty shortsighted to waste all the T4-A expandable real estate on RJ gates. I have a hard time seeing how over a 30 year lifespan, it won't just get replaced with something similar to what they originally envisioned.
 
AmericanAir88
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:45 pm

T4 still needs the “MSP Terminal C” rail line. Make it elevated like at DTW.

Baggage Claim is no where near those gates in the B40-50. Long and crowded walk.
 
sxf24
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:51 pm

Where are the passengers going out of the converted narrowbody gates at the end of T4B going to sit/stand/walk? There's not room for 50 seat RJ's worth of passengers.
 
flybry
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:47 pm

Sad times for Delta in NYC :(
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:59 pm

If I was the PA, I would tell Delta to consolidate on B and cut flights.

Plenty of other operators want the slots.

You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion
 
Josh76040
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:01 am

The Delta experience at T4 is truly awful. T2 is just as bad, while AA and B6 passengers enjoy the superior customer experience in T8 and T5, along with the synergies of the AA/B6 cooperation.

Get out the popcorn and watch Delta stumble at JFK.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:05 am

jfklganyc wrote:
You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion


It seems like a temporary situation until 2024, still odd nevertheless
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:27 am

Midwestindy wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion


It seems like a temporary situation until 2024, still odd nevertheless


One thing I know about aviation, nothing that is planed in the future is real until it arrives.

The funny thing about Delta at terminal 4 Is the fact that the original 2000 plan under Leo Mullin called for a much larger expansion.

When DL Finally did the expansion after much delay, it left out the whole upper floor expansion of the head house. They did it on the cheap. It was a half hearted version of the 2000 plan.

In this case Delta is backed into a corner. They would stay at terminal 2 indefinitely. But terminal 2 is going away. TOGA wants to build. Delta does not. So this is the bandaid result.

The overall result is a much more crowded, smaller terminal then was envisioned 20 years ago.

Now enter Jetblue and American. Plenty of gate space, plenty of slots.

Could get interesting.

Given what is going on across the field, if I was Delta, this isnt a project I would delay
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:02 am

jfklganyc wrote:
If I was the PA, I would tell Delta to consolidate on B and cut flights.

Plenty of other operators want the slots.

You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion


If T7 is still slated to be demolished eventually, would this be a space that UA could build out with a combination of narrowbody and widebody gates? Is this an entirely common use concourse or does Delta have some priority for use?
 
micstatic
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:03 am

This is all very interesting to me also. I would love to know what their long term plans are. Is it possible they are seeing a future where LGA is the core of NYC ops, JFK remains sizable but not too much growth. Nobody knows the medium term business environment in NYC. And not to beat the same drum. But just about any analyst sees a very sizable amount of business jobs moving the city due to the recent embracement of WFH and video conf. No, I'm not suggesting NYC will suddenly not be a huge player in business. But it's significantly harder to predict now.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:15 am

micstatic wrote:
This is all very interesting to me also. I would love to know what their long term plans are. Is it possible they are seeing a future where LGA is the core of NYC ops, JFK remains sizable but not too much growth. Nobody knows the medium term business environment in NYC. And not to beat the same drum. But just about any analyst sees a very sizable amount of business jobs moving the city due to the recent embracement of WFH and video conf. No, I'm not suggesting NYC will suddenly not be a huge player in business. But it's significantly harder to predict now.


Absolutely. We just don’t know what the future holds for business travel.

But as of now LaGuardia is the loser… It’s a ghost town. JFK and EWR have seen the surge in leisure traffic.


I read about Jetblue upping Boston to 15 flights a day from LaGuardia...I couldn’t help but think I don’t know if that will ever be necessary again
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:34 am

jfklganyc wrote:
If I was the PA, I would tell Delta to consolidate on B and cut flights.

Plenty of other operators want the slots.

You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion


Well said. Concourse A is so poorly designed to begin with (all of T4 is really just a mess) and tacking on RJ spots were A380s typically park seems illogical.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:38 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
If I was the PA, I would tell Delta to consolidate on B and cut flights.

Plenty of other operators want the slots.

You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion


If T7 is still slated to be demolished eventually, would this be a space that UA could build out with a combination of narrowbody and widebody gates? Is this an entirely common use concourse or does Delta have some priority for use?


T7 is to be demolished eventually to make way for a CUTE facility, and I believe B6 would also have some gates in what replaces T7. Highly unlikely DL would use any part of a new T7 complex. It's too far from T4. As for UA, I suppose they'll use gates at whatever replaces T7 but it is so far off. The original timeline was for T7 to close once BA and IB relocate to T8 when the T8 expansion/renovations are completed. This is supposedly in late 2022.

The bottom line here around DL at T4 is they made best use of the assets and real estate they could get their hands on. The Worldport was simply a mess. Too small, cramped, needed tons of work, and none of it worth the expense of renovating it to a new standard. Combined with T2, DL had, at a time of massive growth, the absolute worst terminals at JFK before it decamped to T4.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:42 am

Josh76040 wrote:
The Delta experience at T4 is truly awful. T2 is just as bad, while AA and B6 passengers enjoy the superior customer experience in T8 and T5, along with the synergies of the AA/B6 cooperation.

Get out the popcorn and watch Delta stumble at JFK.


I am not sure DL will "stumble" at JFK, as that sounds a bit too far, but T4 is a miserable place and Delta has spent billions on a half-assed facility, expanded off a design from the 1990s. T4 is a crowded, low ceiling mess of a place, with a badly designed head-house, overcrowded security lanes that are a bottle neck (well, pre-pandemic they were) and poor retail choices all over the place. The A concourse is even worse than B in its current form.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:45 pm

Why did the PANYNJ ever let Delta move into Terminal 4 ? Where were all the international airline supposed to go ? Terminal 1 should not have been the answer but turned out to the place most went. For 10 years JFK have been one terminal down and will be for years. When the new T1 gets built on the old Pan AM, Delta T2 and T1 sites JFK may finally have what it needs but that still years away. Delta is not JFK's only large operator, but many times it seems that way.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:55 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"The plan announced in February 2020 included 16 new narrowbody gates to be added to Concourse A in Terminal 4. Now, the current proposal includes just two new narrowbody gates and eight regional jet gates added to the end of Concourse A."

"Delta would have an option until the end of 2024 to expand the terminal to 11 or 12 gates for narrow-body aircraft."

"The Port Authority projects the first phase’s new gates would open in 2022 and construction complete in 2023."

The switch from mainline to RJs is interesting, but this tells me DL will focus mainline growth elsewhere.


Image
https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-new ... expansion/


I presume this revised plan will preserve some widebody hardstand parking where the original A expansion would have taken place.

If international demand is impacted, then the other international carriers would be impacted too. Would that mean DL could potentially take some gates in the new T1-T3 complex if an expansion were to take place?

Also, is current T2 closed for good at JFK?
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:59 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse.


As others have noted, its temporary. Moreover, the Concourse B RJ gates are being converted to narrowbody gates so just adding temporary replacement narrowbody gates isn't really objectionable - its not like other airlines are paying for construction of new gates there (nor is the Port Authority). IIRC its also FEWER RJ gates than currently.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:08 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
jetblastdubai wrote:

If T7 is still slated to be demolished eventually, would this be a space that UA could build out with a combination of narrowbody and widebody gates? Is this an entirely common use concourse or does Delta have some priority for use?


T7 is to be demolished eventually to make way for a CUTE facility, and I believe B6 would also have some gates in what replaces T7. Highly unlikely DL would use any part of a new T7 complex. It's too far from T4. As for UA, I suppose they'll use gates at whatever replaces T7 but it is so far off.



I was referring to the short term issues or options UA would have for terminal space during the transition period when T7 is demolished and the new T5 is open. Unless traffic remains depressed, gate space will be hard to come by if you remove T7 before backfilling it with something.
 
atlflyer
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:34 pm

Only in New York does a stop-gap measure cost $1.5 Billion.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse.


As others have noted, its temporary. Moreover, the Concourse B RJ gates are being converted to narrowbody gates so just adding temporary replacement narrowbody gates isn't really objectionable - its not like other airlines are paying for construction of new gates there (nor is the Port Authority). IIRC its also FEWER RJ gates than currently.



Nothing is temporary...until it ends.

That’s why we are looking at a half built T8 20 years later.

Secondly, the current RJ concourse is designed for RJs. It is going to be a low narrow overcrowded mess with larger gates. Heck, it already is all of those things.
 
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:32 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse.


As others have noted, its temporary. Moreover, the Concourse B RJ gates are being converted to narrowbody gates so just adding temporary replacement narrowbody gates isn't really objectionable - its not like other airlines are paying for construction of new gates there (nor is the Port Authority). IIRC its also FEWER RJ gates than currently.



Nothing is temporary...until it ends.

That’s why we are looking at a half built T8 20 years later.

Secondly, the current RJ concourse is designed for RJs. It is going to be a low narrow overcrowded mess with larger gates. Heck, it already is all of those things.


Hoping AA builds out Terminal 8 to the original specifications in this era of expansion. All those British Airways, Qantas and Cathay 777 & A350 have to go somewhere. IF AA really wanted to have all the space they needed and put Delta in hard place they would merge with Jetblue. Imagine Termnals 5,6,7,&8 under AA control.
 
atlflyer
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:51 am

Here’s an update from the PANYNJ press release. Expansion will be 150,000 sq feet (which seems good for 10 gates). Also will include a new Delta Sky Club. My concern is the current RJ concourse being used for mainline. I guess they will not have a 1-1 replacement so if reconfigured properly, should be ok. I guess DL feels the pressure to “move” from T2 bc T1 is ready to bulldoze tor their new terminal. So this gets Delta the space they need in the interim ASAP.
 
atlflyer
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:52 am

Expanding Terminal 4 in a Practical Fashion with Customer Needs in Mind

The Terminal 4 project will modernize and expand the existing terminal, adding more than 150,000 square feet and 10 new gates, serving primarily regional and domestic flights. The project will also expand and renovate the arrivals and departures hall to improve the ticketing areas, security check points, baggage claim, and arrivals areas. Delta currently operates out of both Terminal 4 and Terminal 2, and this expansion will allow Delta to offer connecting customers a seamless travel experience at JFK by consolidating all of Delta's JFK operations into Terminal 4.

The expansion will replace the 11 gates currently used by Delta at Terminal 2, which was built in 1962, and allow for the demolition of that 58-year-old terminal. The consolidation will also allow for more seamless connections on many of Delta's partner airlines. The project will include expanded seating areas and concessions, modern wayfinding, and new or upgraded restrooms designed with travelers in mind. The expansion project also includes a new Delta lounge in Terminal 4's Concourse A.

https://www.panynj.gov/port-authority/e ... pment.html
 
evank516
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:57 am

T4 is terrible. That walk down the B concourse is just too long. Baggage claim is clear across the facility and you’re looking at a gnarly walk from even B39. T2 may be gross, but it’s easy in and easy out. I miss it.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:02 am

jfk777 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

As others have noted, its temporary. Moreover, the Concourse B RJ gates are being converted to narrowbody gates so just adding temporary replacement narrowbody gates isn't really objectionable - its not like other airlines are paying for construction of new gates there (nor is the Port Authority). IIRC its also FEWER RJ gates than currently.



Nothing is temporary...until it ends.

That’s why we are looking at a half built T8 20 years later.

Secondly, the current RJ concourse is designed for RJs. It is going to be a low narrow overcrowded mess with larger gates. Heck, it already is all of those things.


Hoping AA builds out Terminal 8 to the original specifications in this era of expansion. All those British Airways, Qantas and Cathay 777 & A350 have to go somewhere. IF AA really wanted to have all the space they needed and put Delta in hard place they would merge with Jetblue. Imagine Termnals 5,6,7,&8 under AA control.


AA is expanding T8 and adding up to 6 gates to accommodate British Airways and Iberia, who will co-locate at T8 with AA in Q3-2022 (at least that was the timeline). BA will feature its own lounges at T8 (Terraces and First) and T8 is also having a lot of its retail complex redeveloped. Qantas and Cathay already operate from T8 and decamped from T7 years ago. Cathay is down to just 1 flight at the moment, pre-pandemic was up to 3 x daily 77W out of T8 and it wasn't an issue. Qantas was using the 787-9 ever since it moved to T8 to operate JFK-LAX-BNE (with connections at LAX to SYD and MEL as well. No issue with QF at T8 then. RJ, AY, ET, QR also all operate out of T8. There's no real need for AA to build T8 further to its original spec, but it would be cool if they did. For the past few years, T8 was a ghost town, but it is still the largest and the best facility at JFK and probably the nicest too, apart from T5. T7 is to be demolished and replaced with a CUTE facility linked to T5 and T5i and will have space for B6. I think AS will move to T8 eventually, particularly if it were to rationalize its JFK operation and re-focus it around SEA, PDX, and SAN, and cut LAX/SFO. AA doesn't need all that space you describe and JFK is a bad place for a connecting hub. DL, B6, and AA focus JFK around O&D and to a much, much lesser extent, connections, which, pre-pandemic were always problematic due to congestion, construction, and terminal layout.
 
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American 767
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:17 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


Nothing is temporary...until it ends.

That’s why we are looking at a half built T8 20 years later.

Secondly, the current RJ concourse is designed for RJs. It is going to be a low narrow overcrowded mess with larger gates. Heck, it already is all of those things.


Hoping AA builds out Terminal 8 to the original specifications in this era of expansion. All those British Airways, Qantas and Cathay 777 & A350 have to go somewhere. IF AA really wanted to have all the space they needed and put Delta in hard place they would merge with Jetblue. Imagine Termnals 5,6,7,&8 under AA control.


AA is expanding T8 and adding up to 6 gates to accommodate British Airways and Iberia, who will co-locate at T8 with AA in Q3-2022 (at least that was the timeline). BA will feature its own lounges at T8 (Terraces and First) and T8 is also having a lot of its retail complex redeveloped. Qantas and Cathay already operate from T8 and decamped from T7 years ago. Cathay is down to just 1 flight at the moment, pre-pandemic was up to 3 x daily 77W out of T8 and it wasn't an issue. Qantas was using the 787-9 ever since it moved to T8 to operate JFK-LAX-BNE (with connections at LAX to SYD and MEL as well. No issue with QF at T8 then. RJ, AY, ET, QR also all operate out of T8. There's no real need for AA to build T8 further to its original spec, but it would be cool if they did. For the past few years, T8 was a ghost town, but it is still the largest and the best facility at JFK and probably the nicest too, apart from T5. T7 is to be demolished and replaced with a CUTE facility linked to T5 and T5i and will have space for B6. I think AS will move to T8 eventually, particularly if it were to rationalize its JFK operation and re-focus it around SEA, PDX, and SAN, and cut LAX/SFO. AA doesn't need all that space you describe and JFK is a bad place for a connecting hub. DL, B6, and AA focus JFK around O&D and to a much, much lesser extent, connections, which, pre-pandemic were always problematic due to congestion, construction, and terminal layout.


Interesting. Everyone in One World (that flies to JFK) wants to move to T8 to be with American, except Japan Airlines who still wants to stay in T1. Also, is there any airline flying of out T8 that is not in One World? The reason I ask that is I see in the above post that BA, QF, AS, RJ, AY, ET and QR are mentioned. BA is British Airways, QF is Qantas, AS is Alaska (they are not yet in T7 but they might, it sounds like), RJ is Royal Jordanian, AY is Finnair, QR is Qatar and...who is ET? I believe it's Ethiopian but they are not in One World.
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:37 am

I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:53 am

American 767 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:

Hoping AA builds out Terminal 8 to the original specifications in this era of expansion. All those British Airways, Qantas and Cathay 777 & A350 have to go somewhere. IF AA really wanted to have all the space they needed and put Delta in hard place they would merge with Jetblue. Imagine Termnals 5,6,7,&8 under AA control.


AA is expanding T8 and adding up to 6 gates to accommodate British Airways and Iberia, who will co-locate at T8 with AA in Q3-2022 (at least that was the timeline). BA will feature its own lounges at T8 (Terraces and First) and T8 is also having a lot of its retail complex redeveloped. Qantas and Cathay already operate from T8 and decamped from T7 years ago. Cathay is down to just 1 flight at the moment, pre-pandemic was up to 3 x daily 77W out of T8 and it wasn't an issue. Qantas was using the 787-9 ever since it moved to T8 to operate JFK-LAX-BNE (with connections at LAX to SYD and MEL as well. No issue with QF at T8 then. RJ, AY, ET, QR also all operate out of T8. There's no real need for AA to build T8 further to its original spec, but it would be cool if they did. For the past few years, T8 was a ghost town, but it is still the largest and the best facility at JFK and probably the nicest too, apart from T5. T7 is to be demolished and replaced with a CUTE facility linked to T5 and T5i and will have space for B6. I think AS will move to T8 eventually, particularly if it were to rationalize its JFK operation and re-focus it around SEA, PDX, and SAN, and cut LAX/SFO. AA doesn't need all that space you describe and JFK is a bad place for a connecting hub. DL, B6, and AA focus JFK around O&D and to a much, much lesser extent, connections, which, pre-pandemic were always problematic due to congestion, construction, and terminal layout.


Interesting. Everyone in One World (that flies to JFK) wants to move to T8 to be with American, except Japan Airlines who still wants to stay in T1. Also, is there any airline flying of out T8 that is not in One World? The reason I ask that is I see in the above post that BA, QF, AS, RJ, AY, ET and QR are mentioned. BA is British Airways, QF is Qantas, AS is Alaska (they are not yet in T7 but they might, it sounds like), RJ is Royal Jordanian, AY is Finnair, QR is Qatar and...who is ET? I believe it's Ethiopian but they are not in One World.


ET is Ethiopian, and yes, they've been using T8, which is indeed a bit odd since they're part of *A. Not sure if they've moved to another terminal since the pandemic and their T8 presence is probably related to ground handling contracts. LATAM also flew out of T8 until the airline switched to partner with DL and decamped to T4. Japan Airlines will not move to T8 because they are one of the owners in Terminal One, alongside Air France, Korean Air, and Lufthansa. They will have a vested interest (and possibly an investment?) in what emerges from the T1 expansion.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4239
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:02 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.


Agreed on T8's further build out to original spec. It's not needed and the costs would be significant, and AA isn't going to spend money on that type of capital improvement now. As to T4 vs BOS/PHL/IAD, I'd agree, none of those airports have really pleasing terminals (save for perhaps the Delta terminal at Logan) but T4 is far from beautiful. It gets the job done but, when at full capacity (pre-pandemic) it is only exceeded by T1 in its unpleasant experience from a passenger service point of view. T5 and T8 are the best of what JFK has to offer presently.
 
Biophobe99
Posts: 25
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:20 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.


I agree wholeheartedly! T4 isn’t the best terminal in the USA but it is certainly modern and up to par with just about any other terminal. That being said it does suffer some minor drawbacks that are inherent to its original design being geared primarily for international departures and arrivals pre 9/11. The walk can be long from B55 to domestic baggage claim but DL has made a good effort to install moving walkways in the concourse area and you have the option of taking the Jitney (bus) to B20 if you’d like (pre COVID - hopefully returning soon!).

The biggest drawbacks to T4 is the lower ceiling area and congested corner at B20. If they can raise the ceiling and cut down on the excessive retail area there that wouldn’t be an issue. Concessions do need a big upgrade. Hopefully with DL taking over T4 in its entirety DL can exert more control over the paxex side of things and I hope they set up the Jitney for easier connections to T4A.

If DL can get everything under one roof and upgrade the paxex I think they’ll do fine. Best terminal at JFK, USA or the world? No. But functional, manageable and certainly better than what T2-3 had to offer.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1099
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:21 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.


T4 is bearable for DL connections today. The walls are long, but it is easy to get between gates and there is a nice SkyClub and food shops.

T4 is subpar for O&D. Security is a colossal mess, even with PreCheck. Customs and baggage claim have illogical flows with significant extra walking. The SkyClub is not conveniently located unless you’re departing from the 30s.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6317
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:29 pm

sxf24 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.


T4 is bearable for DL connections today. The walls are long, but it is easy to get between gates and there is a nice SkyClub and food shops.

T4 is subpar for O&D. Security is a colossal mess, even with PreCheck. Customs and baggage claim have illogical flows with significant extra walking. The SkyClub is not conveniently located unless you’re departing from the 30s.


That’s because the original Delta plan included expanding the head house. That was delayed almost 10 years and never happened... they did it on the cheap.

Now here we go again…they are doing the next expansion on the cheap.

You see a pattern here?

That is where pax complaints will come from in 5 years.

There was a terminal with 16 gates that was meant for O and D international arrival and departures in 1999. Delta is now using that same terminal with extended concourses as a major hub.

Two separate security checkpoints were combined into one big mess. A sleepy floor of airline lounges and chapels is now Hemmed in by a large TSA checkpoint. That checkpoint overflows into the main ticketing hall that was never expanded.

The domestic baggage claim was meant for a few Northwest airlines flights from the A gates. Delta is now operating a whole domestic schedule from the B gates.


Those are where the problems stem from
 
FlyGuy27
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:32 pm

I generally support DL’s decisions in NY as I appreciate how awful of an operating environment it is (expensive, dealing with the Port Authority, etc.)

That said, not following their logic here. Sticking RJ gates and a new club in A is supposed to make the overall experience better? By making folks walk to the very end of B for a connecting flight?
 
SEU
Posts: 302
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:55 pm

Well isnt Delta downsizing their mainline fleet overall after covid? This makes sense if so
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:31 pm

SEU wrote:
Well isnt Delta downsizing their mainline fleet overall after covid? This makes sense if so


There are still about 230 firm orders with 150 options. Most of the the firm orders will be delivered by 2025.

221 = 4
223 = 42 (+50 options)
321ceo = 11
321neo = 125 (+100 options)
339neo = 29
359 = 20

Right now, DL is down about 130 mainline aircraft from pre-COVID highs (~900 jets). Theres enough firm orders to recover over time, especially if options are exercised. Also factor in that most of the parked aircraft were 717, MD88/90s, 737-7s, 320s. Most of the replacements are larger gauge 321s. Same with 763s replaced by 339s. So seats are being replaced without a 1 for 1 frame replacement.

Another facet to consider is the parking of the CRJ2s. Also, the 35 76-seat RJs that are indefinitely parked due to scope clause issues.
 
Lootess
Posts: 602
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:05 pm

I love T4, and the moving walkways make it easy to get other side in decent time. I guess people don’t complain about DTW cause they take the monorail.

Also one of the best Skyclubs in the network. Good riddance T2.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2864
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:06 pm

The RJ gates at the end of B already doubled as 5 narrowbody gates (42A,44A,43A,47A,51A) so I struggle to see how they are going to fit five on the odd-side; one or two of those would still need to be RJ gates which is going to cut down on their actual gains,
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4239
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:40 am

Lootess wrote:
I love T4, and the moving walkways make it easy to get other side in decent time. I guess people don’t complain about DTW cause they take the monorail.

Also one of the best Skyclubs in the network. Good riddance T2.


Glad to see T2 go. Awful terminal though it is one of the last pieces of historic JFK, but definitely not worth salvaging. It's too small, horrible layout, not designed for the traffic levels it supported and T1 definitely needs a larger footprint. The only place to grow T1 is on the space T2 occupies.
 
atlflyer
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:35 pm

Biophobe99 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The biggest drawbacks to T4 is the lower ceiling area and congested corner at B20. If they can raise the ceiling and cut down on the excessive retail area there that wouldn’t be an issue. Concessions do need a big upgrade. Hopefully with DL taking over T4 in its entirety DL can exert more control over the paxex side of things and I hope they set up the Jitney for easier connections to T4A.

If DL can get everything under one roof and upgrade the paxex I think they’ll do fine. Best terminal at JFK, USA or the world? No. But functional, manageable and certainly better than what T2-3 had to offer.


The head house of T4 is quite nice. It’s got really high ceilings and is bright and airy. The $100 million Delta/JFKIAT will use to remodel it in the scaled back plan with certainly make it a lot nicer.

I agree the older part of the concourses do have lower ceilings and the B20 area is the lowest. With the other allocated $300 million for renovations, the plan was to make the look of the concourses consistent with the newer part with lighting, flooring, ceiling height, etc. but that seems it will have to wait until 2024 and phase II. The part that opened in 2013 is much better than the original concourse area.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 237
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Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:51 pm

Josh76040 wrote:
The Delta experience at T4 is truly awful. T2 is just as bad, while AA and B6 passengers enjoy the superior customer experience in T8 and T5, along with the synergies of the AA/B6 cooperation.

Get out the popcorn and watch Delta stumble at JFK.


While I agree that the T4 experience is far from great, it is light years ahead of the T3 dump. That was just plain embarrassing.
 
Biophobe99
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:59 pm

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:47 pm

bkflyguy wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:
The Delta experience at T4 is truly awful. T2 is just as bad, while AA and B6 passengers enjoy the superior customer experience in T8 and T5, along with the synergies of the AA/B6 cooperation.

Get out the popcorn and watch Delta stumble at JFK.


While I agree that the T4 experience is far from great, it is light years ahead of the T3 dump. That was just plain embarrassing.


T3 extension was terrible. I did love the original T3 saucer though. Too bad it was neglected for so long that it wasn’t salvageable. I thought it would’ve made for a great retro rj operation.

One thing I’ll never understand is how people compare DL at T4 to AA/T8 and B6/T5. Both of those terminals were built specifically for the airlines that operate from there. Therefore they should be a much nicer experience and better operationally than an airline taking over a terminal that was built for a different type of operation.
 
jfern022
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:36 pm

Biophobe99 wrote:
bkflyguy wrote:
Josh76040 wrote:
The Delta experience at T4 is truly awful. T2 is just as bad, while AA and B6 passengers enjoy the superior customer experience in T8 and T5, along with the synergies of the AA/B6 cooperation.

Get out the popcorn and watch Delta stumble at JFK.


While I agree that the T4 experience is far from great, it is light years ahead of the T3 dump. That was just plain embarrassing.


T3 extension was terrible. I did love the original T3 saucer though. Too bad it was neglected for so long that it wasn’t salvageable. I thought it would’ve made for a great retro rj operation.

One thing I’ll never understand is how people compare DL at T4 to AA/T8 and B6/T5. Both of those terminals were built specifically for the airlines that operate from there. Therefore they should be a much nicer experience and better operationally than an airline taking over a terminal that was built for a different type of operation.


Exactly! If some of the commentors here would like, they could donate some funds to Delta in order to make the facility more to their standards.

The walk on T4B is the same as the walk at DTW Concourse A. Going from the low gates to the high gates is just as long. They both have moving walkways, DTW has the Tram and JFK will have the jitney back soon.

Unless everyone on here thinks DL should spend millions more at JFK, when the cost of construction is much higher in NYC, and they've already had a lot committed in CAPEX to LGA and LAX, as well as SEA.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:21 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You dont tack on RJs gates to the end of an international, common use concourse. That space could be used for future expansion


It seems like a temporary situation until 2024, still odd nevertheless


One thing I know about aviation, nothing that is planed in the future is real until it arrives.

The funny thing about Delta at terminal 4 Is the fact that the original 2000 plan under Leo Mullin called for a much larger expansion.

When DL Finally did the expansion after much delay, it left out the whole upper floor expansion of the head house. They did it on the cheap. It was a half hearted version of the 2000 plan.

In this case Delta is backed into a corner. They would stay at terminal 2 indefinitely. But terminal 2 is going away. TOGA wants to build. Delta does not. So this is the bandaid result.

The overall result is a much more crowded, smaller terminal then was envisioned 20 years ago.

Now enter Jetblue and American. Plenty of gate space, plenty of slots.

Could get interesting.

Given what is going on across the field, if I was Delta, this isnt a project I would delay


Image of the 2000 Leo Mullen plan:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/representative-gregory-meeks-delta-ceo-leo-f-mullin-state-news-photo/1303256
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:57 am

Delta’s T4 expansion was a vast improvement in operational efficiency and passenger experience over T3. However, Delta over hyped it. The expansion, as jfklganyc noted, was done on the cheap (while not necessarily inexpensive) and surprisingly so given Delta’s strategic imperative to “win New York.”

T4 was a crowded mess from Day 1. The headhouse needed to be expanded and reconfigured to reflect its operational use. The expanded T4B could have been wider with higher ceilings and sky lights instead of the claustrophobic environment DL created which will only be worse with narrow body gates replacing the RJ gates. The Sky Club gets mixed reviews — large and modern, can get crowded during the evening TATL rush, small restrooms and a popular Sky Deck. The F&B vendors were upgraded. But Delta definitely prioritized the macro improvements — spend on operational efficiency (JFK + network) — over micro improvements — spend on passenger experience (space, flow, feel, aesthetics, amenities).

T4 was never designed for its current use as a mix of O&D and connecting passenger hub. Delta made some choices to improve its operations, support the brand and be responsible to its shareholders. With that said, Delta could have done a better job and remained fiscally responsible.

From a passenger perspective T4 will be talked about until it is eventually torn down.
 
NYC-air
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 6:59 am

Re: Delta scales back JFK T4 plans

Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:03 am

This plan is likely an IMPROVEMENT for most passengers, particularly O&D pax. Why? Well because all the RJ pax in the concourse A extension will have much, much shorter walks than they currently have. Especially with baggage claim being on that side of the building!

A major wildcard is 1) whether they'll operate a proper number of security lanes 2) whether baggage claim will need an expansion and 3) whether the Jitney will provide a seamless connection experience between concourses. If those three things can be handled . . .

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