gaystudpilot wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

It seems like a temporary situation until 2024, still odd nevertheless

One thing I know about aviation, nothing that is planed in the future is real until it arrives.

The funny thing about Delta at terminal 4 Is the fact that the original 2000 plan under Leo Mullin called for a much larger expansion.

When DL Finally did the expansion after much delay, it left out the whole upper floor expansion of the head house. They did it on the cheap. It was a half hearted version of the 2000 plan.

In this case Delta is backed into a corner. They would stay at terminal 2 indefinitely. But terminal 2 is going away. TOGA wants to build. Delta does not. So this is the bandaid result.

The overall result is a much more crowded, smaller terminal then was envisioned 20 years ago.

Now enter Jetblue and American. Plenty of gate space, plenty of slots.

Could get interesting.

Given what is going on across the field, if I was Delta, this isnt a project I would delay

Image of the 2000 Leo Mullen plan:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/representative-gregory-meeks-delta-ceo-leo-f-mullin-state-news-photo/1303256

jfern022 wrote:

Biophobe99 wrote:

bkflyguy wrote:

While I agree that the T4 experience is far from great, it is light years ahead of the T3 dump. That was just plain embarrassing.

T3 extension was terrible. I did love the original T3 saucer though. Too bad it was neglected for so long that it wasn’t salvageable. I thought it would’ve made for a great retro rj operation.

One thing I’ll never understand is how people compare DL at T4 to AA/T8 and B6/T5. Both of those terminals were built specifically for the airlines that operate from there. Therefore they should be a much nicer experience and better operationally than an airline taking over a terminal that was built for a different type of operation.

Exactly! If some of the commentors here would like, they could donate some funds to Delta in order to make the facility more to their standards.

The walk on T4B is the same as the walk at DTW Concourse A. Going from the low gates to the high gates is just as long. They both have moving walkways, DTW has the Tram and JFK will have the jitney back soon.

Unless everyone on here thinks DL should spend millions more at JFK, when the cost of construction is much higher in NYC, and they've already had a lot committed in CAPEX to LGA and LAX, as well as SEA.

trueblew wrote:

jfern022 wrote:

Biophobe99 wrote:

T3 extension was terrible. I did love the original T3 saucer though. Too bad it was neglected for so long that it wasn’t salvageable. I thought it would’ve made for a great retro rj operation.

One thing I’ll never understand is how people compare DL at T4 to AA/T8 and B6/T5. Both of those terminals were built specifically for the airlines that operate from there. Therefore they should be a much nicer experience and better operationally than an airline taking over a terminal that was built for a different type of operation.

Exactly! If some of the commentors here would like, they could donate some funds to Delta in order to make the facility more to their standards.

The walk on T4B is the same as the walk at DTW Concourse A. Going from the low gates to the high gates is just as long. They both have moving walkways, DTW has the Tram and JFK will have the jitney back soon.

Unless everyone on here thinks DL should spend millions more at JFK, when the cost of construction is much higher in NYC, and they've already had a lot committed in CAPEX to LGA and LAX, as well as SEA.

Why so defensive? You cannot equate the experience at T4 with that at DTW Concourse A. Not even close. The Jitney is not the Tram. If you time it just so, the Jitney takes even longer than powerwalking the length of the concourse. That could never be said for DTW's tram. T4 is a poor experience for O&D, but just horrendous for connections particularly when schlepping from the high B gates. It is what it is. No one is attacking your dearest Delta, just describing the actual unfortunate reality.

ContinentalEWR wrote:

Lootess wrote:

I love T4, and the moving walkways make it easy to get other side in decent time. I guess people don’t complain about DTW cause they take the monorail.

Also one of the best Skyclubs in the network. Good riddance T2.

Glad to see T2 go. Awful terminal though it is one of the last pieces of historic JFK, but definitely not worth salvaging. It's too small, horrible layout, not designed for the traffic levels it supported and T1 definitely needs a larger footprint. The only place to grow T1 is on the space T2 occupies.

jbs2886 wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

Lootess wrote:

I love T4, and the moving walkways make it easy to get other side in decent time. I guess people don’t complain about DTW cause they take the monorail.

Also one of the best Skyclubs in the network. Good riddance T2.

Glad to see T2 go. Awful terminal though it is one of the last pieces of historic JFK, but definitely not worth salvaging. It's too small, horrible layout, not designed for the traffic levels it supported and T1 definitely needs a larger footprint. The only place to grow T1 is on the space T2 occupies.

Crazy talk! lol T2 was so convenient compared to T4 because it was so small. Sure, it was pretty crappy, but you didn't have to spend too much time in there and the SkyClub generally always had space (albeit it, too, was a sad one).

Moving sidewalks in T4 don't help that much (and at least one was always down).

jbs2886 wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

Lootess wrote:

I love T4, and the moving walkways make it easy to get other side in decent time. I guess people don’t complain about DTW cause they take the monorail.

Also one of the best Skyclubs in the network. Good riddance T2.

Glad to see T2 go. Awful terminal though it is one of the last pieces of historic JFK, but definitely not worth salvaging. It's too small, horrible layout, not designed for the traffic levels it supported and T1 definitely needs a larger footprint. The only place to grow T1 is on the space T2 occupies.

Crazy talk! lol T2 was so convenient compared to T4 because it was so small. Sure, it was pretty crappy, but you didn't have to spend too much time in there and the SkyClub generally always had space (albeit it, too, was a sad one).

Moving sidewalks in T4 don't help that much (and at least one was always down).

evank516 wrote:

T4 is terrible. That walk down the B concourse is just too long. Baggage claim is clear across the facility and you’re looking at a gnarly walk from even B39. T2 may be gross, but it’s easy in and easy out. I miss it.

STT757 wrote:

jbs2886 wrote:

ContinentalEWR wrote:

Glad to see T2 go. Awful terminal though it is one of the last pieces of historic JFK, but definitely not worth salvaging. It's too small, horrible layout, not designed for the traffic levels it supported and T1 definitely needs a larger footprint. The only place to grow T1 is on the space T2 occupies.

Crazy talk! lol T2 was so convenient compared to T4 because it was so small. Sure, it was pretty crappy, but you didn't have to spend too much time in there and the SkyClub generally always had space (albeit it, too, was a sad one).

Moving sidewalks in T4 don't help that much (and at least one was always down).

I remember when they painted T-2 in the Song colors!

Biophobe99 wrote:

trueblew wrote:

jfern022 wrote:

Exactly! If some of the commentors here would like, they could donate some funds to Delta in order to make the facility more to their standards.

The walk on T4B is the same as the walk at DTW Concourse A. Going from the low gates to the high gates is just as long. They both have moving walkways, DTW has the Tram and JFK will have the jitney back soon.

Unless everyone on here thinks DL should spend millions more at JFK, when the cost of construction is much higher in NYC, and they've already had a lot committed in CAPEX to LGA and LAX, as well as SEA.

Why so defensive? You cannot equate the experience at T4 with that at DTW Concourse A. Not even close. The Jitney is not the Tram. If you time it just so, the Jitney takes even longer than powerwalking the length of the concourse. That could never be said for DTW's tram. T4 is a poor experience for O&D, but just horrendous for connections particularly when schlepping from the high B gates. It is what it is. No one is attacking your dearest Delta, just describing the actual unfortunate reality.

DTW A and JFK T4 are not all that dissimilar when it comes to length of a walk from one end to the other. DTW however wins hands down when you compare the Tram to the JFK Jitney. Yet another example of how effective designing for a specific type of operation can be in providing a seamless experience. T4 will most likely never be on the same level due to it being built for a different purpose but it’s not all that bad for what it is and will eventually be used for.

I certainly enjoy a good debate and can get passionate about certain subjects but could we refrain from the inflammatory language and personal prodding? It doesn’t really add to the conversation.

jfklganyc wrote:

Biophobe99 wrote:

trueblew wrote:

Why so defensive? You cannot equate the experience at T4 with that at DTW Concourse A. Not even close. The Jitney is not the Tram. If you time it just so, the Jitney takes even longer than powerwalking the length of the concourse. That could never be said for DTW's tram. T4 is a poor experience for O&D, but just horrendous for connections particularly when schlepping from the high B gates. It is what it is. No one is attacking your dearest Delta, just describing the actual unfortunate reality.

DTW A and JFK T4 are not all that dissimilar when it comes to length of a walk from one end to the other. DTW however wins hands down when you compare the Tram to the JFK Jitney. Yet another example of how effective designing for a specific type of operation can be in providing a seamless experience. T4 will most likely never be on the same level due to it being built for a different purpose but it’s not all that bad for what it is and will eventually be used for.

I certainly enjoy a good debate and can get passionate about certain subjects but could we refrain from the inflammatory language and personal prodding? It doesn’t really add to the conversation.

NW built the DTW terminal. Different airline, different place, different time.

Why you guys are even arguing over apples and oranges is beyond me.

You are also comparing building in one of the most competitive airports in one of the most expensive cities in the planet with...Detroit.

Do you know how much it costs to build a train in NY? $2.5 billion per mile of subway. You think you are getting an airport intra-terminal tram for a cost effective price?

It is a miracle you even have the AirTrain

jfklganyc wrote:

Biophobe99 wrote:

trueblew wrote:

Why so defensive? You cannot equate the experience at T4 with that at DTW Concourse A. Not even close. The Jitney is not the Tram. If you time it just so, the Jitney takes even longer than powerwalking the length of the concourse. That could never be said for DTW's tram. T4 is a poor experience for O&D, but just horrendous for connections particularly when schlepping from the high B gates. It is what it is. No one is attacking your dearest Delta, just describing the actual unfortunate reality.

DTW A and JFK T4 are not all that dissimilar when it comes to length of a walk from one end to the other. DTW however wins hands down when you compare the Tram to the JFK Jitney. Yet another example of how effective designing for a specific type of operation can be in providing a seamless experience. T4 will most likely never be on the same level due to it being built for a different purpose but it’s not all that bad for what it is and will eventually be used for.

I certainly enjoy a good debate and can get passionate about certain subjects but could we refrain from the inflammatory language and personal prodding? It doesn’t really add to the conversation.

NW built the DTW terminal. Different airline, different place, different time.

Why you guys are even arguing over apples and oranges is beyond me.

You are also comparing building in one of the most competitive airports in one of the most expensive cities in the planet with...Detroit.

Do you know how much it costs to build a train in NY? $2.5 billion per mile of subway. You think you are getting an airport intra-terminal tram for a cost effective price?

It is a miracle you even have the AirTrain

jfklganyc wrote:

gaystudpilot wrote:

Image of the 2000 Leo Mullen plan:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/representative-gregory-meeks-delta-ceo-leo-f-mullin-state-news-photo/1303256

Thank You for posting this!!!!

See that huge headhouse expansion?? Never happened.

Now you know why T4 is a cluster in the Terminal itself.

20 years later, the still havent achieved their original goal

Revelation wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

gaystudpilot wrote:

Image of the 2000 Leo Mullen plan:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/representative-gregory-meeks-delta-ceo-leo-f-mullin-state-news-photo/1303256

Thank You for posting this!!!!

See that huge headhouse expansion?? Never happened.

Now you know why T4 is a cluster in the Terminal itself.

20 years later, the still havent achieved their original goal

Seems like DL is trying to do too much at once (LGA, JFK, LAX, and SEA) and is dealing with earlier failures too (the earlier JFK master plan, the money they dumped into the new facility at BOS that ended up being wiped out during bankruptcy).

Revelation wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

gaystudpilot wrote:

Image of the 2000 Leo Mullen plan:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/representative-gregory-meeks-delta-ceo-leo-f-mullin-state-news-photo/1303256

Thank You for posting this!!!!

See that huge headhouse expansion?? Never happened.

Now you know why T4 is a cluster in the Terminal itself.

20 years later, the still havent achieved their original goal

Seems like DL is trying to do too much at once (LGA, JFK, LAX, and SEA) and is dealing with earlier failures too (the earlier JFK master plan, the money they dumped into the new facility at BOS that ended up being wiped out during bankruptcy).

Biophobe99 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.

I agree wholeheartedly! T4 isn’t the best terminal in the USA but it is certainly modern and up to par with just about any other terminal. That being said it does suffer some minor drawbacks that are inherent to its original design being geared primarily for international departures and arrivals pre 9/11. The walk can be long from B55 to domestic baggage claim but DL has made a good effort to install moving walkways in the concourse area and you have the option of taking the Jitney (bus) to B20 if you’d like (pre COVID - hopefully returning soon!).

The biggest drawbacks to T4 is the lower ceiling area and congested corner at B20. If they can raise the ceiling and cut down on the excessive retail area there that wouldn’t be an issue. Concessions do need a big upgrade. Hopefully with DL taking over T4 in its entirety DL can exert more control over the paxex side of things and I hope they set up the Jitney for easier connections to T4A.

If DL can get everything under one roof and upgrade the paxex I think they’ll do fine. Best terminal at JFK, USA or the world? No. But functional, manageable and certainly better than what T2-3 had to offer.

cokepopper wrote:

Could Delta’s plan to scale back Terminal 4A
Have anything to do with LGA possibly loosing the perimeter rule?

mikedelta720 wrote:

So is there still a chance to fly out of T2? I see planes parked at the gates but I don't know if flights still operate there, and to where.

mikedelta720 wrote:

So is there still a chance to fly out of T2? I see planes parked at the gates but I don't know if flights still operate there, and to where.

panamair wrote:

mikedelta720 wrote:

So is there still a chance to fly out of T2? I see planes parked at the gates but I don't know if flights still operate there, and to where.

JFK T2 is currently still closed but it will likely reopen later this summer as Delta increases JFK flights; there won’t be enough gates at T4 to handle the total number of flights during peak summer based on current projections.

AmericanAir88 wrote:

panamair wrote:

mikedelta720 wrote:

So is there still a chance to fly out of T2? I see planes parked at the gates but I don't know if flights still operate there, and to where.

JFK T2 is currently still closed but it will likely reopen later this summer as Delta increases JFK flights; there won’t be enough gates at T4 to handle the total number of flights during peak summer based on current projections.

Does T2 really need to comeback? (T3 should have stayed instead of T2 in my opinion). DL has plenty of gates at T4. I hope DL goes through with expanding T4 to eliminate T2. Maybe even put a train at T4Bz

Here is a tip for T4 parking: Park at T7 and take the air train. T7 parking is always empty and cheaper

N757ST wrote:

With the lack of international flights this summer and fall from international carriers, I also wonder if T2 would be necessary.

panamair wrote:

Noticed that Delta has started using some of the T4A gates already: MAD left out of gate A2 and LHR left out of A4 last night...don’t know if it’s a just a temporary situation...

gaystudpilot wrote:

panamair wrote:

Noticed that Delta has started using some of the T4A gates already: MAD left out of gate A2 and LHR left out of A4 last night...don’t know if it’s a just a temporary situation...

Is this still happening?

I wonder if they bussed passengers over to T4A — ie, premium passengers in the Sky Club, located in T4B, would have a hike to T4A.

tlecam wrote:

The morning flight to London is leaving from A3 today.

NYCDM wrote:

tlecam wrote:

The morning flight to London is leaving from A3 today.

Both AM flights to LHR today are also A.

And the inbound tonight from PHX arrives T1. Weird.

sxf24 wrote:

jfklganyc wrote:

I just want to bring this thread back to the real world.

Terminal 4 has some long walks, But beyond that it is a beautiful, modern, spacious terminal...with a mall that is as photogenically pleasing as any of the great airports of the world.

I don’t know what airport terminals you guys have been in (especially in the US and especially in NY) but T4 is not awful, horrible or ugly.

It is certainly nicer than anything at EWR or BOS or PHL or IAD .... other east coast international facilities.

Back to Delta...They are trying to run a major hub on the cheap while getting new competition across the field.


Re T8: The full build out as envisioned will never occur. The two concourses that were cut were full RJ concourses for an RJ operation that never existed.

T4 is bearable for DL connections today. The walls are long, but it is easy to get between gates and there is a nice SkyClub and food shops.

T4 is subpar for O&D. Security is a colossal mess, even with PreCheck. Customs and baggage claim have illogical flows with significant extra walking. The SkyClub is not conveniently located unless you’re departing from the 30s.

atlflyer wrote:

- Delta will not only build a new Sky Club in Concourse A but will also build a new 36,000 square foot new concept premium lounge (No name given for this new lounge yet) in the Headhouse of Terminal 4..

atlflyer wrote:

Here is the link if anyone else wants to watch the presentation:

https://www.anewjfk.com/delta-airlines- ... ch-events/

tlecam wrote:

atlflyer wrote:

Here is the link if anyone else wants to watch the presentation:

https://www.anewjfk.com/delta-airlines- ... ch-events/

Interesting and thanks! Not sure i would have stumbled across this.

Also I’m happy to hear what I suspected about the commuter expansion confirmed…designed with future expansion in mind.

tinpusher007 wrote:

Me as well!!! Because whats going up now is NOT an expansion; its even worse than the current T2!!!

NYCDM wrote:

And the inbound tonight from PHX arrives T1. Weird.

OzarkD9S wrote:

tinpusher007 wrote:

Me as well!!! Because whats going up now is NOT an expansion; its even worse than the current T2!!!

Sounds like what America West did at PHX T3 before T4 was built. It served the purpose but wasn't meant for the long-term. Much like C/D at IAD. Wait...

phatfarmlines wrote:

NYCDM wrote:

And the inbound tonight from PHX arrives T1. Weird.

It has been mentioned that T1 is not capable of taking domestic arrivals. And DL is using T1?

tphuang wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:

tinpusher007 wrote:

Me as well!!! Because whats going up now is NOT an expansion; its even worse than the current T2!!!

Sounds like what America West did at PHX T3 before T4 was built. It served the purpose but wasn't meant for the long-term. Much like C/D at IAD. Wait...

Construction costs always go up exponentially in NYC. If Delta wants to wait until 2030, they are not going to like costs. I won't be surprised if they just keep patching things up with small projects because a major expansion costs too much

STT757 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:

Sounds like what America West did at PHX T3 before T4 was built. It served the purpose but wasn't meant for the long-term. Much like C/D at IAD. Wait...

Construction costs always go up exponentially in NYC. If Delta wants to wait until 2030, they are not going to like costs. I won't be surprised if they just keep patching things up with small projects because a major expansion costs too much

They’re spending $1.3 Billion on this “temporary” expansion. The terminal will be 30 years old in 7 years. I can’t see them dropping what would have to be north of $2 billion to do another expansion.

STT757 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:

Sounds like what America West did at PHX T3 before T4 was built. It served the purpose but wasn't meant for the long-term. Much like C/D at IAD. Wait...

Construction costs always go up exponentially in NYC. If Delta wants to wait until 2030, they are not going to like costs. I won't be surprised if they just keep patching things up with small projects because a major expansion costs too much

They’re spending $1.3 Billion on this “temporary” expansion. The terminal will be 30 years old in 7 years. I can’t see them dropping what would have to be north of $2 billion to do another expansion.

SteelChair wrote:

For those who say Delta should invest millions more....they've already invested billions. With a plural. This is New York after all. Near as I can tell, they've scarcely seen a return on these investments. I have been under the understanding that even when times were good, most of the actual profit was made elsewhere. Perhaps this explains the unwillingness to finish the headhouse.

They've been saying they want to be big in NYC for 25 years.....one can't help but wonder why? It's ridiculously expensive and operationally complex. What airline ever got rich in NYC?

ContinentalEWR wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

For those who say Delta should invest millions more....they've already invested billions. With a plural. This is New York after all. Near as I can tell, they've scarcely seen a return on these investments. I have been under the understanding that even when times were good, most of the actual profit was made elsewhere. Perhaps this explains the unwillingness to finish the headhouse.

They've been saying they want to be big in NYC for 25 years.....one can't help but wonder why? It's ridiculously expensive and operationally complex. What airline ever got rich in NYC?

That's not quite true. While DL has invested billions in NYC, specifically at JFK for 30+ years (it all began when DL acquired Pan Am's JFK operations, TATL routes, etc..) in 1991, with a further expansion as it emerged from Chapter 11 in 2007, followed up by the LGA accompanying hub, by their own admission, they stated that the entire NYC operation turned profitable in 2014. Yes, it is expensive. It is also complex, particularly when it straddles two airports. But they have strong anchors at JFK and LGA. What they don't have is what UA does, which is a singular NY Area hub at one airport. It is well known that EWR was the most profitable of CO's 3 US hubs, and UA has also made it clear EWR remains one of its most profitable. So, it can be done and DL has shown with capital investment, wooing corporate clients, and offering a more unified product on the ground and in the air, it can work. The challenge will be what happens next. Corporate travel will likely never return to 2019 levels. But DL has positioned itself well in NY and for the long haul. It will eventually take over T4 completely and grow more at LGA.

I think T4 will be around for a long time.

Like ORD or ATL, that is an anchor terminal which the whole airport is based on. At least 2050.