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YQBexYHZBGM
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The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:19 pm

Hoping to generate some discussion of news or developments regarding Pennsylvania airports other than PHL and PIT. Even though I no longer live in the region, I'm still interested in hearing what's going on -- just hard to follow from a distance. ;)

So, let's talk about ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST and any others you care to discuss.

I'll kick things off with a few potential topics:
-- Apparently LNS is losing EAS service from Southern Airways Express. Unfortunate, but it happens.
LATE self-correction: apparently just BWI is being dropped, and IAD resumed, so good for LNS. :)
-- At least IPT has managed to retain AA/Eagle service to PHL. My former home airport (across the state line but still within the region) wasn't so fortunate.
-- I am surprised that AA/Eagle is not operating ERI-PHL, and that DL affiliates are not operating ERI-DTW. ERI-PHL in particular seems like a reasonably important instate travel link.
 
Buddys747
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:32 pm

MDT-BOS returns on AA on 6/3. There is always comments that it will never last as one of the few point to point AA routes but it keeps hanging on. Helps that Piedmont has a base here.
G4 has a nice pre covid schedule at both MDT and ABE, so definitely the leisure market is speaking.
I’d still love to see MDT-DEN on UA, we desperately need that route.
Last run with F9 the schedule wasn’t ideal at all.
Will AVP see an LCC/ULCC carrier again?
LNS service to me is sort of ridiculous with MDT, PHL and BWI being so close.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:48 pm

DL suspended service last spring when COVID hit to ERI & AVP, which had been CR2 service to DTW, which at the time was at-risk flown by Skywest with CR2s.
No indication as to if or when DL plans to resume service into either market.

SCE/UNV, one of my prior "home" airports is still down heavily, as some much demand in and out of the airport was generated by large events/conferences/sporting events at the university, university-related travel, business travel from local companies, and recruiting/interviewer/job related travel that has alll still remains heavily restricted, postponed, or virtual.

AA - flying 1x daily PHL ERJ & suspended ORD service; PHL was at 3-4 daily & ORD was 2x daily pre-COVID
UA - flying 1x daily IAD CRJ & 1x weekdays-only ORD CRJ; both routes were 2x daily pre-COVID
DL - flying 1x daily DTW CRJ; was 3x daily pre-COVID
G4 - flying 2x weekly SFB A319; has not resumed the 2x weekly PIE from Pre-COVID
 
RJNUT
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:38 pm

speaking of LNS, i found a BWI-LNS-ACK , Saturdays only in June (and then out of IAD in July and Aug.) for just $143 O.W.. No return connection exists however.. This would be on Southern Airways Express
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:56 pm

Buddys747 wrote:
Will AVP see an LCC/ULCC carrier again?


WN has operated charter flights to MCO from AVP on behalf of Boscov's Travel.

There is also some leakage from the Scranton/Wilkes Barre Area to airports that are served by LCC/ULCC's such as ABE, ELM, LGA, EWR, PHL, SWF, and SYR.

While G4 pulled out of AVP 3 years ago, G4 re-entering AVP might be a possibility with
(a) the load factors that G4 was getting out of AVP in 2017 was similar to what G4 was getting out of other markets still served by G4 prior to the COVID-19 pandemic and
(b) G4 being able to capture some of the passengers in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Area who would otherwise fly out of other airports such as ABE, ELM, SWF, or SYR.
 
Roots1
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:29 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL suspended service last spring when COVID hit to ERI & AVP, which had been CR2 service to DTW, which at the time was at-risk flown by Skywest with CR2s.
No indication as to if or when DL plans to resume service into either market.


ATL-AVP remains suspended as well, which I believe was a once daily 717 pre-COVID, and was AVP's only regular scheduled mainline service.
 
Rss719
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:00 pm

ABE to IAD on UA survives after having been dropped and brought back before Covid. Flew it about 3 weeks ago and was about 80% full, will be on it again in a week or so and looks pretty full. AA still no PHL and most traffic is being driven to CLT but everything I look at ends up with a long layover. Nothing mainline on Delta and prices all seem high vs. UA and AA. I am a business flyer so Alleigent isn't an option, employer won't use them.
 
Buddys747
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:14 pm

Rss719 wrote:
ABE to IAD on UA survives after having been dropped and brought back before Covid. Flew it about 3 weeks ago and was about 80% full, will be on it again in a week or so and looks pretty full. AA still no PHL and most traffic is being driven to CLT but everything I look at ends up with a long layover. Nothing mainline on Delta and prices all seem high vs. UA and AA. I am a business flyer so Alleigent isn't an option, employer won't use them.

DLs prices have been sky high compared to UA and AA. We flew two trips MDT-BZN December and March and it was half the cost of DL.
I think ABE will be back to a decent level of service soon enough but ABE- PHL might be in trouble. They will need more frequencies to CLT and ORD if PHL doesn’t come back.
I could see Breeze setting up there at some point to compliment G4.
Hopefully AVP can get G4 back, I’m still surprised they left there then ended up going to SCE.
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:24 am

Buddys747 wrote:
Hopefully AVP can get G4 back, I’m still surprised they left there then ended up going to SCE.

G4 has a large built-in market for spring break x-SCE, not sure how well they do the rest of the year.

AVP is a much larger metro area, so one would think they would be able to sustain service to at least one of G4's destinations. I think the major competition, though, is not between G4 and other airlines, or between AVP and alternate airports, but rather drive to Florida (or Myrtle Beach) vs. fly. Most families I knew in the area drove, ours included.
 
jeffrey1970
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:56 am

How is UA doing in JST?
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:10 am

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:
Buddys747 wrote:
Hopefully AVP can get G4 back, I’m still surprised they left there then ended up going to SCE.

G4 has a large built-in market for spring break x-SCE, not sure how well they do the rest of the year.

AVP is a much larger metro area, so one would think they would be able to sustain service to at least one of G4's destinations. I think the major competition, though, is not between G4 and other airlines, or between AVP and alternate airports, but rather drive to Florida (or Myrtle Beach) vs. fly. Most families I knew in the area drove, ours included.

I have no idea how G4 is doing at SCE in the COVID era, and as mentioned upthread, they are flying the 2x weekly SFB service but are not flying to PIE.
Pre-COVID, at least load-wise the numbers I saw showed them going out with 100+.

The thing that for SCE is the airport pulls from a huge area...and especially for G4 service you are getting people coming in from places like JST, AOO, DUJ, IPT.
Th G4 flights, other than maybe 1-2 weeks a year, are really used so much by Penn State students. The demographics are pretty favorable for the less-than-daily G4 model.
State College has a lot of higher incomes with disposible incomes/travel due to the higher pay jobs directly and indirectly tied to the university or affiliated businesses. State College is one of the top in-state retirement locations. (lots of retired alumni in the region). Central Florida on the other side has a lot of retired alumni, and there is interest in traveling back to their college town.
Central Florida is a big vacation destination for Central Florida. SCE is one of the smallest G4 cities, but so far they've kept it on the other side now of COVID.
 
93Sierra
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:20 am

What no love for Latrobe?
 
flyjoe
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:49 am

Buddys747 wrote:
Rss719 wrote:
ABE to IAD on UA survives after having been dropped and brought back before Covid. Flew it about 3 weeks ago and was about 80% full, will be on it again in a week or so and looks pretty full. AA still no PHL and most traffic is being driven to CLT but everything I look at ends up with a long layover. Nothing mainline on Delta and prices all seem high vs. UA and AA. I am a business flyer so Alleigent isn't an option, employer won't use them.


I think ABE will be back to a decent level of service soon enough but ABE- PHL might be in trouble. They will need more frequencies to CLT and ORD if PHL doesn’t come back.

I thought ABE-PHL ended well before COVID impacts started? It's really sad to see what has happened to air service at ABE. Obviously too much leakage to PHL & EWR with options and fares. It's a ghost town most of the time. Quite the different scene from the late 80s, early 90s when you had four network carriers with mainlines flights, several commuter routes and all of the come and go LCCs with their brief appearances until marketing funds went dry.
 
Rss719
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:43 pm

No, PHL was a Covid victim. I miss it, it was a fun little Ejet run to a usually quick connection plus I could grab a Tony Luke's steak while I was there. The "flight" to EWR is still going via 78. The lose of competition with the CO and NWA mergers really hurt more than anything.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:57 pm

93Sierra wrote:
What no love for Latrobe?


I bring up LBE quite a bit in the PIT thread when there is something worthwhile mentioning. Since LBE is in the Pittsburgh MSA and catchment area I figure it is best to keep LBE discussion there.
FLYi
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Mon May 03, 2021 10:19 pm

Link to another thread, in an attempt to keep this one going long-term, and because it involves a flight departing AVP:

"Luggage drops from open compartment mid-flight"
[url]https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1460477[/

The title made it sound like a case of someone ignoring, "Please use caution when opening the overhead bins, as items may have shifted during flight." :lol: Turns out it was a little more newsworthy than a roll-on bag landing on someone's noggin (which is no laughing matter, either).
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Tue May 11, 2021 8:16 pm

I'm starting to think that Avelo and/or Breeze might sub-daily operations to places like AVP and ERI is of growing potential with the recent announcement of HVN as a northeast base for Avelo. Both would have noncompetitive markets for Florida flights. I think AVP losing it's ULCC service was in part timing and in part trying with aircraft that were too large. It's a large enough market to support certain additions. ERI might seem like an oddball, but I think G4 all but promised it Florida service a number of years ago because it could recapture leakage to CLE, PIT and BUF, but ERI didn't have the runway to accommodate without penalties. Instead, G4 started at a number of locations surrounding ERI and now that ERI has the runway, G4 has shifted it's model away from starting new small markets. Both AVP and ERI have low service levels for markets their sizes.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Wed May 12, 2021 10:09 pm

state grant money going to 12 PA airports

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2021/05/w ... ports.html
 
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YQBexYHZBGM
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sat May 22, 2021 9:59 pm

I had no idea things had gotten this bad for IPT:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/airport-a ... 10210.html

Hopefully things will pick up post-COVID. The Little League World Series generates quite a bit of travel to Williamsport, far more than just during the event. Marketers, lawyers, etc. etc. are in and out year round. It is a LONG drive from IPT to AVP, let alone MDT or PHL. SCE and ELM don't offer enough flights to be good alternatives at the moment, either. Driving in rural northern PA entails more than just mileage, and the Google Maps time vs. distance recommendations don't seem accurate in the region.
 
silentbob
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 1:41 am

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:
I had no idea things had gotten this bad for IPT:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/airport-a ... 10210.html

Hopefully things will pick up post-COVID. The Little League World Series generates quite a bit of travel to Williamsport, far more than just during the event. Marketers, lawyers, etc. etc. are in and out year round. It is a LONG drive from IPT to AVP, let alone MDT or PHL. SCE and ELM don't offer enough flights to be good alternatives at the moment, either. Driving in rural northern PA entails more than just mileage, and the Google Maps time vs. distance recommendations don't seem accurate in the region.

As a former resident of the area and someone very familiar with Little League, there is not that much traffic generated year round. There also isn't very much inbound flight traffic for the series either. I don't recall a year when flights were actually added for the series traffic. US Airways was on the verge of pulling out and there were two rounds of EAS bidding before the gas boom hit and US decided to stay. It's only a matter of time before that happens again, the money for the new terminal was a waste.

SCE and AVP are roughly 90 minutes, MDT is two hours, BWI is 3-3.5 if you avoid rush hour, about the same as PHL. All of those are on major highways where you can average well over the speed limit for most of the drive.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 12:30 pm

That article is outdated since IPT still has service to PHL
 
MDTflyer1
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 2:35 pm

Buddys747 wrote:
MDT-BOS returns on AA on 6/3. There is always comments that it will never last as one of the few point to point AA routes but it keeps hanging on. Helps that Piedmont has a base here.
G4 has a nice pre covid schedule at both MDT and ABE, so definitely the leisure market is speaking.
I’d still love to see MDT-DEN on UA, we desperately need that route.
Last run with F9 the schedule wasn’t ideal at all.
Will AVP see an LCC/ULCC carrier again?
LNS service to me is sort of ridiculous with MDT, PHL and BWI being so close.


As someone who lives in the LNS area, I agree LNS does not deserve to be in the EAS program. As far at UA starting MDT-DEN, I recall reading SARAA meeting minutes from a few years ago (might have actually been circa 2012-2015) where UA officials explained it was more economical to push people through ORD from MDT. Since MDT-DEN would be overflying ORD, but perhaps the market dynamics have changed? MDT-DEN on UA would open up more connecting possibilities to smaller destinations in the Rocky Mountains and the West Coast not currently offered through ORD. Another nonstop flight from MDT not currently offered that would be nice to see is either MIA or FLL. MDT has to be either the largest or one of the largest markets east of the Mississippi River lacking a nonstop flight to South Florida.

Cargo at MDT seems to be picking up lately. I've noticed Kalitta is flying CVG-MDT-BDL for DHL using a 734. Previously SNC was flying CVG-MDT for DHL using a SH36. Also the last few Saturday's, UPS has been sending a MD11 from MDT to ANC. MDT's cargo expansion project can't be done soon enough!
 
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flyPIT
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 5:10 pm

MDTflyer1 wrote:
Also the last few Saturday's, UPS has been sending a MD11 from MDT to ANC. MDT's cargo expansion project can't be done soon enough!

This is only to get the airplane to Asia
FLYi
 
silentbob
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 6:21 pm

MDTflyer1 wrote:
Another nonstop flight from MDT not currently offered that would be nice to see is either MIA or FLL. MDT has to be either the largest or one of the largest markets east of the Mississippi River lacking a nonstop flight to South Florida.

I'd love that flight as much as anyone, but overflying a hub with relatively low yielding traffic doesn't make much sense to me. WN or NK don't have much incentive to start service, as a lot of folks will drive to BWI for their service. Best chance is maybe B6?
 
smokeybandit
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 7:22 pm

I'd love a MDT-DEN flight since DEN is my home airport and I have family just to the north and south of MDT
 
MDTflyer1
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 8:02 pm

silentbob wrote:
MDTflyer1 wrote:
Another nonstop flight from MDT not currently offered that would be nice to see is either MIA or FLL. MDT has to be either the largest or one of the largest markets east of the Mississippi River lacking a nonstop flight to South Florida.

I'd love that flight as much as anyone, but overflying a hub with relatively low yielding traffic doesn't make much sense to me. WN or NK don't have much incentive to start service, as a lot of folks will drive to BWI for their service. Best chance is maybe B6?


Yeah like you said, AA hasn't jumped on MDT-MIA because it makes more financial sense for them to just shuttle people MDT-CLT-MIA than chasing low yielding traffic. Agreed on your points about WN and NK. I read the SARAA meeting minutes almost religiously. In the past few years, MDT officials have continued to have discussions with WN, but WN's response has consistently been along the lines of, "We thank you for your interest, but we already serve the MDT market through BWI and PHL" because as you pointed out so many people are content driving down to BWI and PHL to catch a flight. I also don't see B6 starting service at MDT in the "near future" and by near future, I mean the next few years. At the moment, FLL is a lower priority for B6. As cruise traffic begins again (presumably later this summer) and leisure traffic continues to build, I'd imagine B6 will be focusing on rebuilding their core markets out of FLL by increasing frequencies on existing routes and not starting new ones.

I think the best chance for a MDT to South Florida nonstop flight is probably on F9 to MIA or G4 to FLL. With that being said, I think the odds of either one announcing such a flight within the next 12 months is probably in the 20% ballpark, but who knows :? I would love to be proven wrong. Honestly, I think the rest of the year will be a quiet one at MDT when it comes to new airline/new route announcements.
 
Buddys747
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Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Sun May 23, 2021 9:56 pm

I agree with the over flying to a point at MDT, however look at the success DFW has had here. Mainline returns (more or less starting) mid
June. CLT and ORD can accomplish quite a bit in there own but I think MIA could be sustained with out a stop, what the airlines like AA and UA need to do is steal those BWI passengers that are flying F9 and WN to the likes of southern Florida and DEN. UA pre-covid was really expanding from DEN and with the DFW success on AA I’d hope UA could follow suite.
Just my opinion though! Be positive for new routes!
 
crj900lr
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Mon May 24, 2021 1:12 am

silentbob wrote:
MDTflyer1 wrote:
Another nonstop flight from MDT not currently offered that would be nice to see is either MIA or FLL. MDT has to be either the largest or one of the largest markets east of the Mississippi River lacking a nonstop flight to South Florida.

I'd love that flight as much as anyone, but overflying a hub with relatively low yielding traffic doesn't make much sense to me. WN or NK don't have much incentive to start service, as a lot of folks will drive to BWI for their service. Best chance is maybe B6?



WN had an opportunity when they took over AirTran. AirTran was flying out of MDT and all WN had to do was keep the routes going but decided not to. The only WN aircraft you will probably ever see in and out of MDT are either military charters or the occasional Boscov's Travel flight to MCO.
 
Buddys747
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:33 am

Re: The Rest of Pennsylvania (ABE, AVP, MDT, ERI, SCE, IPT, JST etc.)

Mon May 24, 2021 1:20 am

crj900lr wrote:
silentbob wrote:
MDTflyer1 wrote:
Another nonstop flight from MDT not currently offered that would be nice to see is either MIA or FLL. MDT has to be either the largest or one of the largest markets east of the Mississippi River lacking a nonstop flight to South Florida.

I'd love that flight as much as anyone, but overflying a hub with relatively low yielding traffic doesn't make much sense to me. WN or NK don't have much incentive to start service, as a lot of folks will drive to BWI for their service. Best chance is maybe B6?



WN had an opportunity when they took over AirTran. AirTran was flying out of MDT and all WN had to do was keep the routes going but decided not to. The only WN aircraft you will probably ever see in and out of MDT are either military charters or the occasional Boscov's Travel flight to MCO.


And that’s fine, I’m not sure what they would offer anyway with BWI being a large hub for them, maybe MCO, MDW and BNA. DEN would be a reach. I’ve concluded it will probably never happen and we will always leak to BWI and PHL, some people are so set on WN even though they are not always the cheapest or best option.
Here’s hoping existing carriers can make strides for more service.
DL is ridiculous anymore with there prices. We went to BZN twice during the ski season and they were 300-400 more than AA and UA , and required 2 stops. The on board product isn’t typically any better.

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