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bob75013
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Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:36 pm

I can't find this posted anywhere on this site - I looked

Apparently because the reservation system is incapable of processing payments in Canadian dollars.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... r-BB1g6J2m
 
777luver
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:47 pm

Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number
 
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Polot
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:51 pm

The fact that Southwest flies to other countries despite not accepting the local currency demonstrates that is not the reason why WN does not fly to Canada.

It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.
 
bob75013
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:53 pm

777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number




The article says that WN's president said it was. That sounds pretty authoritative to me.
 
WN732
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:56 pm

I am guessing that they are working to remedy this since they are going to need to process CAD if they want BLI to work out.
 
aviationjunky
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:56 pm

Polot wrote:
It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.


When I was working with G4, that was the reason for not flying to Canada. They refused to pay the taxes and high airport fees.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:57 pm

Hasn't prioritized. That's revealing.

Canadians purchasing tickets would have to do so in Canadian dollars, which Southwest's system isn't set up to handle. The problem isn't insurmountable but one that Southwest hasn't prioritized ahead of other projects like preparing its Boeing 737 Max fleet for Hawaii flights, Nealon said.

Lots of transborder traffic is Canadian POS, and WN has little foreign POS mojo. That, and AC, WestJet, and Air Transat do a good job serving the market.

Maybe they can rename the carrier Tex-Bob's Country Airline.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:02 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.


When I was working with G4, that was the reason for not flying to Canada. They refused to pay the taxes and high airport fees.


And yet B6 is going to London, hardly known for low taxes or airport fees. That taxes/fees argument is a canard. WN flies to 14 of the 15 highest cost airports in the U.S. among the largest fifty airports.

https://visualapproach.io/most-expensiv ... passenger/
 
777luver
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:02 pm

bob75013 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number




The article says that WN's president said it was. That sounds pretty authoritative to me.


Doesn't mean that's the truth lol, as others have stated on here
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:07 pm

With the exception of some of the summer seasonal leisure traffic into the Canadian Rockies (YYC, YEG) and Alaska cruise traffic (YVR) and maybe a little bit of niche ski traffic (a small fraction compared to summer leisure demand) almost everything else is heavily dominated by Canada point-of-sale. Canadians (in normal times) love visiting our Sun / beach markets but it would be difficult to go against the Canadian-based airlines in those markets.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:22 pm

777luver wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number




The article says that WN's president said it was. That sounds pretty authoritative to me.


Doesn't mean that's the truth lol, as others have stated on here

Accepting other currencies than USDs doesn't necessarily mean the WN system is set-up to accept CADs; which appears to be the (maybe official only?) reason for WN not to fly to Canada.
 
bnatraveler
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:24 pm

bob75013 wrote:
I can't find this posted anywhere on this site - I looked

Apparently because the reservation system is incapable of processing payments in Canadian dollars.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... r-BB1g6J2m


WN now fully runs on 1A (Amadeus) for selling seats. 1A is one of the largest reservation systems in the world and is based in Europe. I do not believe that 1A cannot accept CAD, what I believe is that WN has chosen to not sell in any other currency than USD - which is what we find for all of their other international destinations. This is a decision by WN, not a system or technology limitation.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:31 pm

WN732 wrote:
I am guessing that they are working to remedy this since they are going to need to process CAD if they want BLI to work out.


I remember one of the reasons they pulled out of MEX was said to be lack of local demand. A system that can't process pesos would be a big part of that.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:37 pm

bnatraveler wrote:

WN now fully runs on 1A (Amadeus) for selling seats. 1A is one of the largest reservation systems in the world and is based in Europe. I do not believe that 1A cannot accept CAD, what I believe is that WN has chosen to not sell in any other currency than USD - which is what we find for all of their other international destinations. This is a decision by WN, not a system or technology limitation.


Which also makes sense in light of the 'hasn't prioritized' comment - they simply may not wish to be exposed to currency fluctuations until they feel capable of factoring that into their business plan.



Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
 
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JBo
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:43 pm

bnatraveler wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
I can't find this posted anywhere on this site - I looked

Apparently because the reservation system is incapable of processing payments in Canadian dollars.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/s ... r-BB1g6J2m


WN now fully runs on 1A (Amadeus) for selling seats. 1A is one of the largest reservation systems in the world and is based in Europe. I do not believe that 1A cannot accept CAD, what I believe is that WN has chosen to not sell in any other currency than USD - which is what we find for all of their other international destinations. This is a decision by WN, not a system or technology limitation.


Wasn't the reason why WN never previously flew international because their old res system wasn't capable of international bookings or something like that? I seem to remember something along those lines.
 
jplatts
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:19 pm

There are a few major Canadian markets such as YYC and YEG that WN couldn't serve from a U.S. airport with both YYC and YEG being too far from any commercial airports in the U.S. and with both YYC and YEG being further from the U.S.-Canada border than YUL, YOW, YYZ, YVR, or YWG.

Montreal is a market that WN is probably better off serving from YUL on the Canadian side instead of PBG on the U.S. side with demand being much stronger to the Montreal metropolitan area on the Canadian side of the border than to the Plattsburgh, NY area on the U.S. side of the border.

BUF serves the Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA, the Olean μSA, the Jamestown-Dunkirk-Fredonia μSA, and other portions of Western New York and Northwestern Pennsylvania in addition to the Niagara Region of Ontario, but there is a significant amount of population and demand on the U.S. side of the border to support WN service out of BUF.

Essex County, ON (where Windsor, ON is located) is adjacent to Detroit, MI, and there is no nonstop service to any U.S. destinations from YQG as DTW is near the Windsor, ON area. WN already serves DTW on the U.S. side of the border, and there is a significant amount of population and demand on the U.S. side of the border to support WN service out of DTW.

While there is some leakage to BUF from the Toronto area, it might make sense for WN to add service to YYZ with Downtown Toronto being approximately a 2-hour drive from BUF and with YYZ being the largest market in Canada.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:20 pm

WN732 wrote:
I am guessing that they are working to remedy this since they are going to need to process CAD if they want BLI to work out.

Cross boarder customers can just go through the US web site, give a Canadian credit card, and let the credit card company do the CAD to USD conversion, I would think. I do something similar when I use my US credit card to order stuff from non-US web sites.

jplatts wrote:
While there is some leakage to BUF from the Toronto area, it might make sense for WN to add service to YYZ with Downtown Toronto being approximately a 2-hour drive from BUF and with YYZ being the largest market in Canada.

Not to mention there can be some pretty long delays at the boarder to clear customs.
 
ModernAviator
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
WN732 wrote:
I am guessing that they are working to remedy this since they are going to need to process CAD if they want BLI to work out.

Cross-boarder customers can just go through the US website, give a Canadian credit card, and let the credit card company do the CAD to USD conversion, I would think. I do something similar when I use my US credit card to order stuff from non-US websites.

While we can do that most Canadian credit cards charge a foreign currency transaction fee (it's usually a percentage.) even for USD on top of the conversion rate. It does make a difference for Canadians to Pay in CAD vs USD to avoid the fee. It can add up quickly, Myself and everyone I know here tries to avoid paying in USD for that reason. However, if the CAD continues to strengthen as it has been the last little while that can be a bonus for WN.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.


When I was working with G4, that was the reason for not flying to Canada. They refused to pay the taxes and high airport fees.


And yet B6 is going to London, hardly known for low taxes or airport fees. That taxes/fees argument is a canard. WN flies to 14 of the 15 highest cost airports in the U.S. among the largest fifty airports.

https://visualapproach.io/most-expensiv ... passenger/

There's a huge difference between how the WN and B6 networks are structured. There is a reason the largest airline in California is flying to Hawaii and the largest airline at JFK is planning to fly to London,
 
Dominion301
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:06 pm

Polot wrote:
The fact that Southwest flies to other countries despite not accepting the local currency demonstrates that is not the reason why WN does not fly to Canada.

It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.


The irony is the majority of taxes on a transborder ticket purchase are American.
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:15 pm

I actually almost spit my coffee out at the notion that an IT limitation regarding currency translation would be the sole factor preventing a Fortune 250 corporation from doing business in Canada. And then the naivety to think that because an executive said that, it is true!

Southwest has the financial scale to hire consultants to do the work necessary to do business in Canada if there is a compelling business case. However, the pro forma financial performance of that expansion (a function of existing competition, regulatory costs, etc.) have meant that WN’s capital has been better deployed elsewhere, at least until now. Doesn’t mean they won’t go there someday.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:40 pm

ModernAviator wrote:
While we can do that most Canadian credit cards charge a foreign currency transaction fee (it's usually a percentage.) even for USD on top of the conversion rate. It does make a difference for Canadians to Pay in CAD vs USD to avoid the fee. It can add up quickly, Myself and everyone I know here tries to avoid paying in USD for that reason. However, if the CAD continues to strengthen as it has been the last little while that can be a bonus for WN.

Thanks, I did not know this.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:53 pm

777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number

That is a silly explanation. WN wouldn't have to pay more taxes than any of their competitors. Is there some reason Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on all the other airlines that serve Canada but not to fly WN?

I don't believe that the IT hassle of accepting CAD can be the only reason, but the added expense may be part of it. All their other international markets are very heavily biased to a U.S. point of sale. Canada is the opposite.

If Air Canada moved to the U.S. they would save in taxes, but not enough to offset their loss of revenue from leaving all their passengers behind. While lowering taxes would probably increase flying Canadians are obviously willing to pay the taxes required to fly. The passengers are there to compete for.
 
STLflyer
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:58 pm

Why are they required to accept CAD?

They don't accept Mexican pesos, Aruban florin, Jamaican dollars and they most definitely don't accept Cuban pesos.

Unless there's some Canadian law that says airlines flying to Canada must accept CAD, I fail to see how this is a hurdle. Canadians can use their credit card and their bank will do the conversion, possibly at better rates than what SWA would provide. I've used my US credit cards to purchase flights in foreign currency many times.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:00 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number

That is a silly explanation. WN wouldn't have to pay more taxes than any of their competitors. Is there some reason Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on all the other airlines that serve Canada but not to fly WN?

Opportunity costs. Would WN (or Spirit, Allegiant, until recently JetBlue, etc) rather use their assets to fly to Canada, or would they rather use them on another route of similar distance but with lower taxes/fees- meaning that they make more money off the same fares?

AC has no choice. US legacy carriers need the cities in their network to attract and maintain business traffic.
Last edited by Polot on Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
777luver
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:01 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number

That is a silly explanation. WN wouldn't have to pay more taxes than any of their competitors. Is there some reason Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on all the other airlines that serve Canada but not to fly WN?

I don't believe that the IT hassle of accepting CAD can be the only reason, but the added expense may be part of it. All their other international markets are very heavily biased to a U.S. point of sale. Canada is the opposite.

If Air Canada moved to the U.S. they would save in taxes, but not enough to offset their loss of revenue from leaving all their passengers behind. While lowering taxes would probably increase flying Canadians are obviously willing to pay the taxes required to fly. The passengers are there to compete for.



How is that a silly explanation when others have said the same thing? High landing fees and other fees have been what the low cost airlines have said is a deterrent to enter the Canadian market. It's not a silly explanation when it comes from them. I never implied that Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on other carriers but not WN I didn't say that. I stated that fact about AC saving $2 billion a year just to demonstrate how high the taxes are in Canada. You cannot ignore that it is a huge problem. But that's another topic for another time.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:30 pm

Here’s the problem: Even if Southwest offered $1 fares from YYC-PHX, just to break even on the taxes alone, (forgetting about covering off their CASM), they’d have to charge c$95.50. And as a portion of taxes are a function of fares, the higher the fare, the more the tax.

It’s very difficult for SW to stimulate traffic with cheap fares when dealing with these direct taxes, (forgetting about all the other high taxes and fees placed on every carrier operating in Canada).

Add to that, other than a couple of markets, there isn’t the sort of higher yielding traffic on these routes that SW needs to average up the yields to where potential route profitability would exceed other opportunities elsewhere. Canadians are notoriously cheap.

And then there’s Cdn POS. There’s a reason why WestJet didn’t even contemplate transborder and southern sched operations until they had 40+ tails available to feed their Canadian gateways.

Outside the best 16 weeks of the year, scattered through basically 4 months, (July, Aug, Dec and March), transborder from Canada requires Canadian feed traffic from a minimum of 5-8 domestic markets, and usually many more than that, of all sizes, in order to be successful.

Even Southwest isn’t brash enough to go head to head with AC, (who are back to being partially Government owned), who wouldn’t think twice about putting multiple daily 787 frequencies on YUL-FLL from Dec to April. At one point, they had 5 767-300’s a day. Even WestJet threw in the towel, even though according to US DoT stats, they averaged 93% loads.

SW operating one stop through their hubs isn’t particularly appealing either. You won’t find many Canadians interested in flying from Canada to sun destinations over BWI, MDW, SLC or anywhere else when there are all sorts of n/s options available at the same price, with much more desirable Aeroplan or WestJet reward points available to boot.

SW has bigger fish to fry. I suspect B6 will come to that same conclusion very early on in their proposed summer 2022 program.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:14 pm

With increased ULCC competition in Canada, I think the opportunity for WN to enter the Canadian market in any significant capacity has already come and gone. WN has placed a lot of eggs in the west coast US/Hawaii basket and really needs to focus on making that work.
 
jplatts
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:22 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Here’s the problem: Even if Southwest offered $1 fares from YYC-PHX, just to break even on the taxes alone, (forgetting about covering off their CASM), they’d have to charge c$95.50. And as a portion of taxes are a function of fares, the higher the fare, the more the tax.

It’s very difficult for SW to stimulate traffic with cheap fares when dealing with these direct taxes, (forgetting about all the other high taxes and fees placed on every carrier operating in Canada).

Add to that, other than a couple of markets, there isn’t the sort of higher yielding traffic on these routes that SW needs to average up the yields to where potential route profitability would exceed other opportunities elsewhere. Canadians are notoriously cheap.

And then there’s Cdn POS. There’s a reason why WestJet didn’t even contemplate transborder and southern sched operations until they had 40+ tails available to feed their Canadian gateways.


While AA has previously partnered with CP (prior to the AC-CP merger) and WS in Canada, AA doesn't currently partner with any Canadian airlines whereas DL partners with WS in Canada and UA partners with AC in Canada (with both UA and AC being in Star Alliance).

Does AA have significant point-of-sale in Canada, or is AA simply serving some Canadian destinations to remain relevant to its FF base in the U.S.? Were the AA flights to Canada profitable prior to COVID-19, or were these routes unprofitable prior to the pandemic but operated for reasons such as network relevance?

If the AA flights to Canada were profitable and if AA didn't have significant point of sale, how could AA make these routes work profitably?

There are a few U.S. to Canada routes such as BWI-YUL that might be able to support nonstop service on WN without significant Canadian point-of-sale if there was enough demand on the U.S. end.

There are also other factors that would support BWI-YUL nonstop service on WN if there is enough demand on the U.S. end such as
(a) fewer U.S. cities having nonstop service to YUL,
(b) the significant connecting feed that WN would have on the U.S. end,
(c) the significant FF base that WN already has in the Baltimore/Washington region (especially on the Baltimore side) and many other U.S. markets served by WN,
(d) limited competition on WAS-YUL with AC and UA being the only airlines currently serving YUL nonstop from the WAS market (and both of these airlines being JV partners instead of ordinary competitors), and
(e) YUL being further from U.S. airports with WN service than YYZ.

Another big difference between the AA FF base and the WN FF base is that many WN FF's who need to travel to Canada are willing to fly on AC, WS, AA, DL, or UA to Canada whereas there are more AA FF's who would avoid other airlines such as AC, WS, DL, or UA whenever possible.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:28 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Here’s the problem: Even if Southwest offered $1 fares from YYC-PHX, just to break even on the taxes alone, (forgetting about covering off their CASM), they’d have to charge c$95.50. And as a portion of taxes are a function of fares, the higher the fare, the more the tax.

It’s very difficult for SW to stimulate traffic with cheap fares when dealing with these direct taxes, (forgetting about all the other high taxes and fees placed on every carrier operating in Canada).

Add to that, other than a couple of markets, there isn’t the sort of higher yielding traffic on these routes that SW needs to average up the yields to where potential route profitability would exceed other opportunities elsewhere. Canadians are notoriously cheap.

And then there’s Cdn POS. There’s a reason why WestJet didn’t even contemplate transborder and southern sched operations until they had 40+ tails available to feed their Canadian gateways.

Outside the best 16 weeks of the year, scattered through basically 4 months, (July, Aug, Dec and March), transborder from Canada requires Canadian feed traffic from a minimum of 5-8 domestic markets, and usually many more than that, of all sizes, in order to be successful.

Even Southwest isn’t brash enough to go head to head with AC, (who are back to being partially Government owned), who wouldn’t think twice about putting multiple daily 787 frequencies on YUL-FLL from Dec to April. At one point, they had 5 767-300’s a day. Even WestJet threw in the towel, even though according to US DoT stats, they averaged 93% loads.

SW operating one stop through their hubs isn’t particularly appealing either. You won’t find many Canadians interested in flying from Canada to sun destinations over BWI, MDW, SLC or anywhere else when there are all sorts of n/s options available at the same price, with much more desirable Aeroplan or WestJet reward points available to boot.

SW has bigger fish to fry. I suspect B6 will come to that same conclusion very early on in their proposed summer 2022 program.


I think this is all correct. It's important to remember that the competition is more than just AC, though. (Not during COVID,) I think a lot of people would be shocked how many WS tails they see if they wander through LAS or PHX in the winter, and western Canada-LAS/PHX are the sort of routes that WN would likely want to operate if they made a push into Canada. Or take MDW/BNA-Toronto. Could those routes work without much Canadian POS? Maybe, but being the fourth carrier on CHI-Toronto or the third on BNA-YYZ isn't appealing (and as somebody who spends a lot of time in Toronto, has family in Chicago, and lives in Nashville, I can assure you that there's not that much stimulation potential in either market; the last time I flew BNA-YYZ, I paid less than $200 US with one day advance purchase on WS).
 
zippy
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:51 pm

ModernAviator wrote:
While we can do that most Canadian credit cards charge a foreign currency transaction fee (it's usually a percentage.) even for USD on top of the conversion rate. It does make a difference for Canadians to Pay in CAD vs USD to avoid the fee. It can add up quickly, Myself and everyone I know here tries to avoid paying in USD for that reason. However, if the CAD continues to strengthen as it has been the last little while that can be a bonus for WN.


Most American cards do the same and those that don't are generally travel oriented cards with annual fees. The fees I've seen are typically around 1–3%. Some cards charge a foreign transaction fee regardless of which currency the transaction is done in (e.g. Bank of America). On top of that the exchange rate you get from the credit card processor is generally not great (although MasterCard tends to be better than Visa here). My experience in Europe was that even with a no foreign transaction fee card the alternative of letting the vendor do the currency conversion for you is often at a much worse exchange rate.

I booked SFO-LHR on Air Canada years ago and I almost certainly wouldn't have done so if they didn't have a presence in the US and the ability to process payments domestically. Southwest seems like the sort of airline where they capitalize on simplicity. They've found a way to make a single type, a single currency, and a relatively simple boarding process work for them. Why change it?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
ModernAviator wrote:
While we can do that most Canadian credit cards charge a foreign currency transaction fee (it's usually a percentage.) even for USD on top of the conversion rate. It does make a difference for Canadians to Pay in CAD vs USD to avoid the fee. It can add up quickly, Myself and everyone I know here tries to avoid paying in USD for that reason. However, if the CAD continues to strengthen as it has been the last little while that can be a bonus for WN.

Thanks, I did not know this.

I'm surprised you're discovering this: most worldwide credit cards will charge you an exchange fee/foreign transaction fee for funds drawn in another currency than the one from the account it's tied to.
 
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dabpit
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:30 pm

dennypayne wrote:
bnatraveler wrote:

WN now fully runs on 1A (Amadeus) for selling seats. 1A is one of the largest reservation systems in the world and is based in Europe. I do not believe that 1A cannot accept CAD, what I believe is that WN has chosen to not sell in any other currency than USD - which is what we find for all of their other international destinations. This is a decision by WN, not a system or technology limitation.


Which also makes sense in light of the 'hasn't prioritized' comment - they simply may not wish to be exposed to currency fluctuations until they feel capable of factoring that into their business plan.



Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

To shed some more light on this. The Res System that WN uses (Amadeus) most certainly can handle foreign currency. In fact the WN version currently used can display the fares in a foreign currency. Air Canada also uses the same Res System as WN (Amadeus); as does BA, LH, AF, QF, AV, and many more global airlines.

The issue is that the accounting system(s) and accounting practices that WN uses are not capable of handling transactions in foreign currency. It is a conscious decision by WN to not sell in foreign currency. Also, the other issue WN faces selling tickets in other countries (and in turn the foreign currency) is that in some countries the main point of sale goes through a local airline ticket office or a Travel Agent. WN just started selling tickets through corporate Travel Agent sites and they have absolutely no plans to open it to the general public Travel Agents.
 
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zeke
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:42 pm

Heard Canadian passengers were too polite to be accepted by their system.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Hasn't prioritized. That's revealing.

Canadians purchasing tickets would have to do so in Canadian dollars, which Southwest's system isn't set up to handle. The problem isn't insurmountable but one that Southwest hasn't prioritized ahead of other projects like preparing its Boeing 737 Max fleet for Hawaii flights, Nealon said.

Lots of transborder traffic is Canadian POS, and WN has little foreign POS mojo. That, and AC, WestJet, and Air Transat do a good job serving the market.

Maybe they can rename the carrier Tex-Bob's Country Airline.


Well Tex-Bob's Country Airline has constantly been the WORLDS most profitable run airline in aviation history WITHOUT Flying to Canada! So put that in your pie hole!

Flyguy
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.
And yet B6 is going to London, hardly known for low taxes or airport fees.

Y'all realize that B6 just announced Canada, no? ;)

YVR already in the scheds.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:09 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Polot wrote:
It’s because of high taxes. That’s why other LCCs like JetBlue (and ULCCs) have largely avoided Canada too.
And yet B6 is going to London, hardly known for low taxes or airport fees.

Y'all realize that B6 just announced Canada, no? ;)

YVR already in the scheds.

Yes that’s why I said largely and not completely. JetBlue finally coming to Canada after 20+ years of operations in two major NE US business centers (NYC and BOS) is not exactly ringing endorsement of trans border LCC operations to Canada.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:54 pm

Polot wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number

That is a silly explanation. WN wouldn't have to pay more taxes than any of their competitors. Is there some reason Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on all the other airlines that serve Canada but not to fly WN?

Opportunity costs. Would WN (or Spirit, Allegiant, until recently JetBlue, etc) rather use their assets to fly to Canada, or would they rather use them on another route of similar distance but with lower taxes/fees- meaning that they make more money off the same fares?

AC has no choice. US legacy carriers need the cities in their network to attract and maintain business traffic.

Why would the charge the same fares they do in the U.S.??????
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:04 am

777luver wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
777luver wrote:
Not sure I buy that, I could be wrong though. I thought it was because of the ridiculously high landing fees and other taxes. Fact: AC publicly stated a few years ago that it could save $2 BILLION a year in taxes if it just moved to the US. Staggering number

That is a silly explanation. WN wouldn't have to pay more taxes than any of their competitors. Is there some reason Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on all the other airlines that serve Canada but not to fly WN?

I don't believe that the IT hassle of accepting CAD can be the only reason, but the added expense may be part of it. All their other international markets are very heavily biased to a U.S. point of sale. Canada is the opposite.

If Air Canada moved to the U.S. they would save in taxes, but not enough to offset their loss of revenue from leaving all their passengers behind. While lowering taxes would probably increase flying Canadians are obviously willing to pay the taxes required to fly. The passengers are there to compete for.



How is that a silly explanation when others have said the same thing? High landing fees and other fees have been what the low cost airlines have said is a deterrent to enter the Canadian market. It's not a silly explanation when it comes from them. I never implied that Canadian passengers are willing to pay taxes to fly on other carriers but not WN I didn't say that. I stated that fact about AC saving $2 billion a year just to demonstrate how high the taxes are in Canada. You cannot ignore that it is a huge problem. But that's another topic for another time.

Huh? Canadians fly almost as much as American's. There is no huge problem. ULCCs can lure extremely price ssensitive Canadians to drive across the border, but that is not WN's customer's base. WN competes with AA and UA between Dallas and the Bay Area, they can compete with AC and AA on Dallas-Toronto. Yes they would have to charge more to make a profit, but AC and AA charge more too. Taxes do not create a competitive disadvantage for WN.

Not taking CAD, the Canadian POS advantage, their weak frequent flyer plan from a Canadian perspective, and the lack of a premium cabin may count against them, but not taxes.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 513
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:12 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Here’s the problem: Even if Southwest offered $1 fares from YYC-PHX, just to break even on the taxes alone, (forgetting about covering off their CASM), they’d have to charge c$95.50. And as a portion of taxes are a function of fares, the higher the fare, the more the tax.

It’s very difficult for SW to stimulate traffic with cheap fares when dealing with these direct taxes, (forgetting about all the other high taxes and fees placed on every carrier operating in Canada).

Add to that, other than a couple of markets, there isn’t the sort of higher yielding traffic on these routes that SW needs to average up the yields to where potential route profitability would exceed other opportunities elsewhere. Canadians are notoriously cheap.

And then there’s Cdn POS. There’s a reason why WestJet didn’t even contemplate transborder and southern sched operations until they had 40+ tails available to feed their Canadian gateways.

Outside the best 16 weeks of the year, scattered through basically 4 months, (July, Aug, Dec and March), transborder from Canada requires Canadian feed traffic from a minimum of 5-8 domestic markets, and usually many more than that, of all sizes, in order to be successful.

Even Southwest isn’t brash enough to go head to head with AC, (who are back to being partially Government owned), who wouldn’t think twice about putting multiple daily 787 frequencies on YUL-FLL from Dec to April. At one point, they had 5 767-300’s a day. Even WestJet threw in the towel, even though according to US DoT stats, they averaged 93% loads.

SW operating one stop through their hubs isn’t particularly appealing either. You won’t find many Canadians interested in flying from Canada to sun destinations over BWI, MDW, SLC or anywhere else when there are all sorts of n/s options available at the same price, with much more desirable Aeroplan or WestJet reward points available to boot.

SW has bigger fish to fry. I suspect B6 will come to that same conclusion very early on in their proposed summer 2022 program.

You listed some good reasons for WN to stay out of Canada, but not taxes. I just checked random dates. AA is selling BOS-FLL for US$157 and YUL-FLL US$$315. WN doesn't have to sell YUL-FLL for $1 or even $157 to be competitive.
 
jplatts
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:04 am

Aliqiout wrote:
Huh? Canadians fly almost as much as American's. There is no huge problem. ULCCs can lure extremely price ssensitive Canadians to drive across the border, but that is not WN's customer's base. WN competes with AA and UA between Dallas and the Bay Area, they can compete with AC and AA on Dallas-Toronto. Yes they would have to charge more to make a profit, but AC and AA charge more too. Taxes do not create a competitive disadvantage for WN.


The Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 (WARA) prohibits nonstop international flights out of DAL, and WN would not be able to serve any Canadian destinations nonstop from DAL due to the restrictions of the WARA. Those wanting to fly to a Canadian airport such as YYZ (as opposed to an U.S. airport near the U.S.-Canada border such as DTW, BUF, or BLI) from DAL would have to connect.
 
ewt340
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:27 am

Between the rumor of "high taxes and high airport fees" vs their inability to compete with other airlines because of strong competition or lack of demand. Which one makes more sense?

Especially since WN fly to expensive airports like LAX, BOS, ORD or SFO.
 
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jaybird
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 am

STLflyer wrote:
Why are they required to accept CAD?

They don't accept Mexican pesos, Aruban florin, Jamaican dollars and they most definitely don't accept Cuban pesos.

Unless there's some Canadian law that says airlines flying to Canada must accept CAD, I fail to see how this is a hurdle. Canadians can use their credit card and their bank will do the conversion, possibly at better rates than what SWA would provide. I've used my US credit cards to purchase flights in foreign currency many times.


Airline tariff rules require that you pay in the currency of the point of sale - not point of departure/travel. All tickets issued in the United States are issued in US$, all tickets issued in Canada are issued in CA$, all tickets issued in the UK are in pounds, etc. without regard to the route flown. It has to do with currency valuation and putting everyone on an even playing field and not being able to take advantage of low exchange rates.

So yes - you can use your credit card in the US to purchase foreign tickets - the cost of the foreign price is converted to USD at the exchange rate on the day of purchase.
Last edited by jaybird on Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:22 am

You can't book southwest through most of the GDS"s which makes expanding into markets where they have limited presence's more complicated, as people won't know to check southwest.com
 
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jaybird
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:41 am

dstblj52 wrote:
You can't book southwest through most of the GDS"s which makes expanding into markets where they have limited presence's more complicated, as people won't know to check southwest.com


I remember some forum users in the past saying that they could not even get on southwest.com in the country where they were living. I suppose you could use a VPN to get around it - but I don't believe southwest.com accepts payment in anything other than USD.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:20 am

jaybird wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
You can't book southwest through most of the GDS"s which makes expanding into markets where they have limited presence's more complicated, as people won't know to check southwest.com


I remember some forum users in the past saying that they could not even get on southwest.com in the country where they were living. I suppose you could use a VPN to get around it - but I don't believe southwest.com accepts payment in anything other than USD.

Southwest is running finally a modern system internally in amadeus so the idea that amadeus cannot price in multiple currencies by default is unlikely and converting currencies on the website even if it couldn't would not be hugely complicated
 
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dabpit
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:24 am

dstblj52 wrote:
jaybird wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
You can't book southwest through most of the GDS"s which makes expanding into markets where they have limited presence's more complicated, as people won't know to check southwest.com


I remember some forum users in the past saying that they could not even get on southwest.com in the country where they were living. I suppose you could use a VPN to get around it - but I don't believe southwest.com accepts payment in anything other than USD.

Southwest is running finally a modern system internally in amadeus so the idea that amadeus cannot price in multiple currencies by default is unlikely and converting currencies on the website even if it couldn't would not be hugely complicated

I would hardly call the Amadeus system “modern”, it is modern compared to what Southwest use to have. See my previous comment for details.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:26 am

jaybird wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Why are they required to accept CAD?

They don't accept Mexican pesos, Aruban florin, Jamaican dollars and they most definitely don't accept Cuban pesos.

Unless there's some Canadian law that says airlines flying to Canada must accept CAD, I fail to see how this is a hurdle. Canadians can use their credit card and their bank will do the conversion, possibly at better rates than what SWA would provide. I've used my US credit cards to purchase flights in foreign currency many times.


Airline tariff rules require that you pay in the currency of the point of sale - not point of departure/travel. All tickets issued in the United States are issued in US$, all tickets issued in Canada are issued in CA$, all tickets issued in the UK are in pounds, etc. without regard to the route flown. It has to do with currency valuation and putting everyone on an even playing field and not being able to take advantage of low exchange rates.

So yes - you can use your credit card in the US to purchase foreign tickets - the cost of the foreign price is converted to USD at the exchange rate on the day of purchase.

Define "point of sale".
From the US, I can go on Air France French website, book ATL-CDG-ATL and pay in Euro; if I go to the US website and do the same flight, I will pay in USD. If the different "point of sale" is which website you use, it's nothing really concrete.
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 3093
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:43 am

"Point of sale" has different definitions depending on the airline. Some carriers are much more pedantic about cross border sales than others.
If I'm in the USA and I want to buy a ticket from London to Tokyo, the Qantas and Lufthansa websites will force me onto their UK sites and charge me in GBP. If I do the same exercise with LOT I can choose the point of sale (China, for example, and pay in Yuan).

As correctly pointed out above, if a company has a physical presence in that country they must accept payment in the local currency. So if Southwest starts flying to Montreal, then they are obliged to accept CAD for payment. Put more simply, I can't move a food truck from Buffalo to Toronto and insist on USD. I have seen some exceptions to this rule, but it generally works in the customer's favour: in Belfast I can pay for things in either GBP or Euros. There are some bars on the US side of the border that will accept CAD so you're bottle of Bud can cost USD2 or CAD2, but the company is taking the hit.

Lastly, even if an airline sets up a local website for that market, that doesn't necessarily mean the price displayed is what shows up on your credit card bill. Air Austral had to modify their Australian page with a warning message- although their prices for a SYD-CDG ticket were displayed in AUD, their bank processed the transaction in euros and the consumer got hit with the foreign currency conversion fee.

The Canada-US market is predominantly Canadian POS. Look at YVR-HNL- every non Canadian carrier hasn't been able to succeed.
 
bob75013
Topic Author
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Re: Why WN does not fly to Canada --

Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:58 am

orlandocfi wrote:
With increased ULCC competition in Canada, I think the opportunity for WN to enter the Canadian market in any significant capacity has already come and gone. .


I remember not too long ago people n A-Net were saying just that about WN service to Hawaii.

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