morrisond wrote:I am not missing anything.You are still missing the fact that they book a reduction in the program cost and a profit. Of course if they have too reduce the accounting block further they will have to book a loss.
Yes they have become twice as good (or at least they were before Covid hit) at the margin on 787 - each one was paying back about $37 million plus recording a very nice profit on the bottom line. The $30 Billion has been paid back (probably). From the earnings transcript "However, on a cash basis, the 787 unit margin has held up relatively well even at lower production rates as many underlying profitability drivers remain intact."
They fixed the gross margin by taking the 787 to one production location - that has helped a lot.
From the transcript of the earnings call https://s2.q4cdn.com/661678649/files/do ... script.pdf
Greg Smith On the MAX "Cumulatively, we've accrued a $9.3 billion liability for the estimated potential concessions and other considerations. To date, we've reduced the liability by $4.9 billion through cash payments to customers and other forms of compensation, including $1.2 billion we paid this quarter. We have settlement agreements covering approximately $2.5 billion of the remaining liability balance of $4.4 billion." so only $4.4B to go on deliveries of 400 frames.
"Moving now to 777X; as Dave mentioned, we still expect first delivery of the 777X to occur in late 2023, and we are making good progress on our flight test efforts. We still expect that peak use of cash for 777X program was in 2020, and that cash flow will improve as we get closer to EIS and begin deliveries in late 2023. We anticipate the program to turn cash-flow-positive approximately one to two years after the first delivery."
"Our debt balance remains stable at $63.6 billion at the end of the quarter. As part of our ongoing prudent liquidity actions, we refinanced $9.8 billion of our delayed draw term loan that was due in early 2022 and expanded our revolving credit facility by $5.3 billion. These liquidity enhancing activities are in addition to the many actions we have discussed before, including suspending our dividend, reducing discretionary spending, matching 401(k) contributions in stock, prefunding pension with stock, and awarding most of our employees a one-time stock grant that will vest in three years in lieu of a merit increase. These actions reflect our continued de-risking strategy and are part of our balanced approach to ensure we're proactively meet future obligations.
We worked hard in the past to maintain disciplined cash management while seeking opportunities to strengthen our balance sheet, and we will continue these efforts. Once cash flow generation returns to more normal levels, reducing our debt level will be our top priority. We believe we currently have sufficient liquidity and are not planning to increase our debt levels. However, we will continue to actively manage our balance sheet. Our investment-grade credit rating is important to us, and we will continue to consider all aspects of our capital structure to strengthen our balance sheet."
Notice they increased the size of a revolver just in case but did not increase debt and don't plan on doing that.
"We expect the first quarter was the most challenging quarter from a cash perspective, and we expect the trend to improve for the remainder of the year as we ramp up 787 and 737 deliveries in subsequent periods. However, there could be some timing variation quarter-over-quarter, so quarterly trajectory could be uneven. As discussed, our cash flow profile is heavily dependent upon obtaining the remaining 737 MAX regulatory approvals, the commercial market recovery, and ongoing discussions with our customers on their fleet planning needs.
In aggregate, we continue to expect 2021 to be a use of cash. We expect that continued improvement on the 737 MAX program due to lower customer considerations and higher delivery payments as well as recovery in Commercial Services will enable us to turn positive cash flow in 2022. The key watch items that I highlighted earlier will be the differentiator in our outlook trajectory. Given the dynamic environment, we continue to monitor the risks and opportunities to ensure we're well-positioned for the future."
Calhoun on the future "Yeah. There's probably not much I can add there. But I'll just add my confidence that as production rates begin to return to what we would consider ultimately normal and then above, we should get more leverage than we've ever gotten simply because of all the actions that we've taken with respect to the fixed and readiness-to-serve costs that are out there. But maybe even a bigger part is the stability we will bring back to the production lines themselves. So that as we move the rates up, we can do so in a stable fashion. There is enormous productivity attached to that track."
Smith on 787 Deferred Production Cost "No, absolutely. Yeah. And actually, Carter, you got it right. I mean, it's all those other moving pieces that are
obviously unusual and didn't exist in the prior quarters. So once we kind of get through that and get kind of to a
normalized pace, you'll see deferred continue on the trajectory that we've outlined before. But near term, to your
point, there's a lot of moving pieces in there that are weighing into that number that are not, I would say, sitting on
a normalized level. But it will once we start continuing delivery. And long term, like I said, we will be on the same
path as we've talked about before. Now, I like I said on the past..."
On 787 Cash Flow "Outside of that, like I said, unit cash basis, program is really doing a great job and really holding up well at a very low rate. And again, that's a testament to all the hard work that's gone on over the years on stabilizing the factory and the operations and the productivity initiatives. So you're seeing the benefit of that.
So as the rate kind of stabilizes and goes up, and we certainly deliver those inventoried aircraft, that's going to be a big driver as I mentioned on cash flow between the balance of this year and then going into 2022."
On investing in the Company "We've invested over $60 billion over the last 10 years, and that has all been in key technologies and programs and all efforts within our factory, within our space. So we've not been short on investment by any means. And you saw even last year in the middle of the pandemic we're – continued to make the appropriate investments in the right area of the business."
Finally one for the future "Secondly, we've invested, as you know, in composites in our platforms for a very, very long time. The learning
curves associated with getting efficient at composite development are significant. I believe Boeing has a huge
advantage on that front. And so how we bridge that engineering modeling, that composite development work that
we've done over the years and then quick, simple assembly like we've demonstrated with the trainer airplane and
other defense programs, we have to do it at scale, and we have to prove to ourselves we can do it at scale. But in
my view those are going to be the advantages to that next airplane that gets developed. And I just love where
Boeing is positioned on that front when the time comes."
Read the full transcript - you will learn a lot.
1. They talk about reducing liabilities in the 737 by making payments to customers. Great. Now where is the money coming from? It is coming from banks, and this is why their debt jumped up. They moved liability from Tom and they will be paying it to Harry with interest. Also note that the total liability added to the MAX was $20.3 billion. This is what interests me, not what has been paid using a loan, which is also yet to be paid back. We also do not know what it is going to cost to re-wire the current fleet or what it is going to cost to solve the latest issue. Charges will continue on this program.
You seem to be missing the forest from the trees.
2. On the 777X, they have already booked a forward loss. Another asset. That said, they are talking about the program being cash flow positive, but does that mean anything in the grand scheme? No. You can be cash flow positive and sinking in debt and red ink elsewhere. This is where Boeing is at and the funny thing is that you do not dispute it. That forward loss they booked is them telling us they wont make money put in development back; any other business you book that as a loss, and it is not just an accounting entry.
3. They talk about liquidity and debt levels. The liquidity they have right now is a function of accumulating more debt. They accumulated more debt because they can neither design good planes, nor can they do it at cost. Repeat work means that they are spending more into what should be mature programs, and being above cost means that you need a bigger accounting block.
4. On the 787, there is more than half program costs still not paid. This does not include the charge that they put in R&D. If we took that to mean this will be spread over 500 frames, then the argument is that on deferred cost alone, Boeing would need to make $30 million off each delivery. They will be doing this and still making a profit.
Mark my words, read my lips. This program is not going to make money, not when you have a shim issue that they have not been able to get ahead of. First time they had this issue was 2012 and 9 years on they still have not found a way to do the job competently. They could not meet agreements they made to the FAA concerning this in 2015. Expect more charges, and they can book them wherever they want, it is money out.
5. They talk about getting more leverage. How much more remains to be seen. It will be money out, and with interest.
6. What have we learnt in this last decade from Boeing? Is it that they can get it right? No, of course not, what we have learnt is that they cannot and problems with the 787, 737 or even widespread issues in the Military and Space ventures show this.
In conclusion, Boeing is slave to the banks and will be for quite some time. And should they need money for a new program in this decade, they will have to tap the debt markets.