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777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 4:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
A lot of speculation out there by simpleflying and others that LX will retire its A343s. They think that the 5 Airbus longhaul a/c referred to in today's memo must automatically mean the 5 A343s because there's 5 of them

Yet the tweet linked above from Andreas Spaeth says 'announced by @FlySWISS' and he's a professional journalist for decades now and I doubt he would use these words if it was just speculation. Of course he could have made a mistake or been given bad information, but I doubt he's speculating, he would have said so if he was.

ZK-NBT wrote:
thmeo wrote:
Is it possible that the first 3 could be the QANTAS birds not delivered that are in storage? These would have the aisle access business class (Vantage XL seat) and could be re-painted and delivered in a relatively short time.

The only problem is the GE engines and everyone’s expecting them to have Rolls.

I think QF would have something to say about that, QF will take delivery when the time is right.

Kind of ironic, given how the 787 delays caused QF so many problems a decade or so ago.



But he is speculating........he said the following on his own post regarding Swiss' announcement "True, it's not confirmed it'll all be A340s that are exiting. But looking at their fleet mix I find this is very likely the one type exiting, consisting of exactly 5 a/c" it's completely speculative, there's the link to said post:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 8196429825
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 4:25 pm

You have to distinguish the medium. His Twitter is a lot about speculation/opinion. Basically, not too different from this thread.
 
777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 4:28 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
You have to distinguish the medium. His Twitter is a lot about speculation/opinion. Basically, not too different from this thread.


You're exactly right. Like anything on the internet not from an official source these days, you have to be careful. But that's another topic
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:18 pm

777luver wrote:
But he is speculating........he said the following on his own post regarding Swiss' announcement "True, it's not confirmed it'll all be A340s that are exiting. But looking at their fleet mix I find this is very likely the one type exiting, consisting of exactly 5 a/c" it's completely speculative, there's the link to said post:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 8196429825

Not doubting you, but when I click on that link I get the original post:

Big cuts announced by @FlySWISS: 20% of staff or 1,700 jobs will be lost, 10 #A320 family aircraft and all five #A340-300 will exit the fleet #avgeek

If it is him just speculating, IMO it's really bad for him to not clearly stay that, it drags down his overall credibility when he is actually reporting.

If he wants to shit-post, he can make up a burner account like the rest of us do.
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777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:25 pm

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
But he is speculating........he said the following on his own post regarding Swiss' announcement "True, it's not confirmed it'll all be A340s that are exiting. But looking at their fleet mix I find this is very likely the one type exiting, consisting of exactly 5 a/c" it's completely speculative, there's the link to said post:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 8196429825

Not doubting you, but when I click on that link I get the original post:

Big cuts announced by @FlySWISS: 20% of staff or 1,700 jobs will be lost, 10 #A320 family aircraft and all five #A340-300 will exit the fleet #avgeek

If it is him just speculating, IMO it's really bad for him to not clearly stay that he is just speculating.


Oops, if you go into the comments thread, his comment admitting it's not fact but just his opinion based on his take of Swiss' fleet will be there. But as others have pointed to, people can't take what's said on Twitter from an unofficial source as fact just because they are journalists. Just a general comment, not directed towards you. Journalists speculate all the time and it does hurt their credibility, you're absolutely right
Last edited by 777luver on Sat May 08, 2021 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Opus99
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
But he is speculating........he said the following on his own post regarding Swiss' announcement "True, it's not confirmed it'll all be A340s that are exiting. But looking at their fleet mix I find this is very likely the one type exiting, consisting of exactly 5 a/c" it's completely speculative, there's the link to said post:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 8196429825

Not doubting you, but when I click on that link I get the original post:

Big cuts announced by @FlySWISS: 20% of staff or 1,700 jobs will be lost, 10 #A320 family aircraft and all five #A340-300 will exit the fleet #avgeek

If it is him just speculating, IMO it's really bad for him to not clearly stay that, it drags down his overall credibility when he is actually reporting.

If he wants to shit-post, he can make up a burner account like the rest of us do.

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 03780?s=21

Seems like he’s using the count of the 340s to determine
 
777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
But he is speculating........he said the following on his own post regarding Swiss' announcement "True, it's not confirmed it'll all be A340s that are exiting. But looking at their fleet mix I find this is very likely the one type exiting, consisting of exactly 5 a/c" it's completely speculative, there's the link to said post:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 8196429825

Not doubting you, but when I click on that link I get the original post:

Big cuts announced by @FlySWISS: 20% of staff or 1,700 jobs will be lost, 10 #A320 family aircraft and all five #A340-300 will exit the fleet #avgeek

If it is him just speculating, IMO it's really bad for him to not clearly stay that, it drags down his overall credibility when he is actually reporting.

If he wants to shit-post, he can make up a burner account like the rest of us do.

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 03780?s=21

Seems like he’s using the count of the 340s to determine


A count that doesn't mean anything really. He's not the only one. Simpleflying has done the same thing. (They aren't credible. Period.) They even speculated that because Azerbaijan Airlines' A345 isn't flying in the next few months that it must be getting parked permanently after a recent period of flying. When in fact there is no such information that states that to be true.....
 
Opus99
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:36 pm

777luver wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Not doubting you, but when I click on that link I get the original post:


If it is him just speculating, IMO it's really bad for him to not clearly stay that, it drags down his overall credibility when he is actually reporting.

If he wants to shit-post, he can make up a burner account like the rest of us do.

https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 03780?s=21

Seems like he’s using the count of the 340s to determine


A count that doesn't mean anything really. He's not the only one. Simpleflying has done the same thing. (They aren't credible. Period.) They even speculated that because Azerbaijan Airlines' A345 isn't flying in the next few months that it must be getting parked permanently after a recent period of flying. When in fact there is no such information that states that to be true.....

I’m not arguing with you
 
777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:40 pm

Opus99 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 03780?s=21

Seems like he’s using the count of the 340s to determine


A count that doesn't mean anything really. He's not the only one. Simpleflying has done the same thing. (They aren't credible. Period.) They even speculated that because Azerbaijan Airlines' A345 isn't flying in the next few months that it must be getting parked permanently after a recent period of flying. When in fact there is no such information that states that to be true.....

I’m not arguing with you


I wasn't trying to argue :) just to expand on what you said
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 5:46 pm

777luver wrote:
Oops, if you go into the comments thread, his comment admitting it's not fact but just his opinion based on his take of Swiss' fleet will be there. But as others have pointed to, people can't take what's said on Twitter from an unofficial source as fact just because they are journalists. Just a general comment, not directed towards you. Journalists speculate all the time and it does hurt their credibility, you're absolutely right

I guess I haven't seen the "journalists speculate all the time" part on my social media feed, at least without them making it clear that they are speculating.

This case was especially bad, him saying airline X is announcing Y and Z without any clue that Z is pure speculation.

Most public figures absolutely understand that anything they say on social media can damage their credibility so they need to watch what they post.

Most journalists defend their credibility to an amazing extent, even more so than the girls at my school defended their virtue. Of course in both cases, their words may not have matched their deeds... :biggrin:

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 03780?s=21

Seems like he’s using the count of the 340s to determine

Thanks!

I didn't see it because it was a reply to a reply.

777luver wrote:
A count that doesn't mean anything really. He's not the only one. Simpleflying has done the same thing. (They aren't credible. Period.) They even speculated that because Azerbaijan Airlines' A345 isn't flying in the next few months that it must be getting parked permanently after a recent period of flying. When in fact there is no such information that states that to be true.....

IMO Spaeth is mainline journalist who is trying to get us to buy his expensive books, he needs to do better than Simply Flying.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sat May 08, 2021 6:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
Oops, if you go into the comments thread, his comment admitting it's not fact but just his opinion based on his take of Swiss' fleet will be there. But as others have pointed to, people can't take what's said on Twitter from an unofficial source as fact just because they are journalists. Just a general comment, not directed towards you. Journalists speculate all the time and it does hurt their credibility, you're absolutely right

I guess I haven't seen the "journalists speculate all the time" part on my social media feed, at least without them making it clear that they are speculating.

This case was especially bad, him saying airline X is announcing Y and Z without any clue that Z is pure speculation.

Most public figures absolutely understand that anything they say on social media can damage their credibility so they need to watch what they post.

Most journalists defend their credibility to an amazing extent, even more so than the girls at my school defended their virtue. Of course in both cases, their words may not have matched their deeds... :biggrin:

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/spaethflies/status/ ... 03780?s=21

Seems like he’s using the count of the 340s to determine

Thanks!

I didn't see it because it was a reply to a reply.

777luver wrote:
A count that doesn't mean anything really. He's not the only one. Simpleflying has done the same thing. (They aren't credible. Period.) They even speculated that because Azerbaijan Airlines' A345 isn't flying in the next few months that it must be getting parked permanently after a recent period of flying. When in fact there is no such information that states that to be true.....

IMO Spaeth is mainline journalist who is trying to get us to buy his expensive books, he needs to do better than Simply Flying.


I agree 100%, credibility is huge nowadays with the internet and whatnot
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Sun May 09, 2021 2:13 am

thmeo wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
thmeo wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]

It could be 2 to 3 years before they require more capacity than the 11 they already have in service. At which point these birds will be 3 to 4 years old and never flown.

I’m sure for the right deal, Boeing and QANTAS would both allow these to be sold to another operator.


The reality is who other than the odd carrier like LH here is actually looking for new aircraft? I’ll say QF could use them by late 2022 early 2023.


I think it’s going to be a long time before they can fill all 28 A330’s and 11 789’s and require the 3 stored 789’s.

I think it’s very unlikely that they could be going to LH, however anything’s possible.


Yes wrong engines anyway. Think range the A330s can’t go beyond Asia, the A380s won’t fly until late 2023 atleast, if QF need range they will take the 789s before the A380s return.
 
Speedy752
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Mon May 10, 2021 12:59 am

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
Regarding the A340s, there's a lot of armchair fleet planners who cannot understand why LH kept their A343s longer than most airlines, they cannot fathom an airline doing that :p

Our longest running meme here on a.net was when/if DL would ever get rid of their DC-9s.

There's a lot to be said for an aircraft that is already paid for and is still somewhat efficient with regard to fuel burn.

As above, it must have been some interesting calculations at LH on whether or not to take more 789s or stick with A340s.


I thought due to the commonality and reasonably good fuel burn of the CFM56 the a343 was a reasonably competitive airframe, and was not uncommon to continue use longer than the a345 or a346 because of it. I also thought the a340-500/600 was fuel inefficient enough that it couldn’t run routes profitably in the age of higher fuel costs which is why it was parked so quickly, despite its older brother still being a useful asset to many airlines. I am guessing that these were some excellent terms given for both aircraft, and ultimately the fleet wasn’t getting any younger.
 
viennafly
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 12:07 pm

It's going to be definitely LN 887,893,898,905&913. (https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa)

All with GENX-engines.
 
na
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 2:24 pm

LH must have gotten a fantastic deal to accept these GEnx powered white tails as the future fleet beyond this quintet will be Rolls-Royce.
 
DALCE
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 2:29 pm

Aren't that the same GEnx engines as the 748's? If so, then there is engine commonality in the fleet anyway.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,223,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,7M8
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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DL717
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:29 pm

Firm Orders:
A350 for Munich
789 for Frankfurt

Options and extra frames:
Leftovers to their partners

343's are done for as soon as they get enough planes in house.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Blerg
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:32 pm

So will LH have only A350s in MUC?
 
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DL717
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:38 pm

Blerg wrote:
So will LH have only A350s in MUC?


There has been some COVID shuffling to FRA, but the plan was MUC gets the first 25 IIRC then Frankfurt if they went with the options. 787-s were intended for Frankfurt and the partners. Early A346 retirement probably changed that thinking a bit, but generally, Frankfurt was second fiddle on the 350. Seems backward and I always thought it was, but that's what their plan was. Its possible the 787s will replace the 343's and the 350's the 346's given the COVID environment impacts that will be felt over their delivery schedule. Its interesting they picked up the 5 new 787s early. I'm all for it. 340 is a gas guzzler.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Blerg
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:50 pm

DL717 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So will LH have only A350s in MUC?


There has been some COVID shuffling to FRA, but the plan was MUC gets the first 25 IIRC then Frankfurt if they went with the options. 787-s were intended for Frankfurt and the partners. Early A346 retirement probably changed that thinking a bit, but generally, Frankfurt was second fiddle on the 350. Seems backward and I always thought it was, but that's what their plan was. Its possible the 787s will replace the 343's and the 350's the 346's given the COVID environment impacts that will be felt over their delivery schedule. Its interesting they picked up the 5 new 787s early. I'm all for it. 340 is a gas guzzler.


Is the A350 the smallest new generation aircraft in their fleet? Maybe that's why they were destined for MUC? They still lack the passenger volume FRA has.
 
na
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:50 pm

DALCE wrote:
Aren't that the same GEnx engines as the 748's? If so, then there is engine commonality in the fleet anyway.

Not the same, but a close relative.
 
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PM
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 pm

na wrote:
LH must have gotten a fantastic deal to accept these GEnx powered white tails as the future fleet beyond this quintet will be Rolls-Royce.

Not necessarily. LH can sustain both in their fleet. And I wonder how secure the RR order actually is.
 
na
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 pm

DL717 wrote:
Firm Orders:
A350 for Munich
789 for Frankfurt

Options and extra frames:
Leftovers to their partners

343's are done for as soon as they get enough planes in house.

Yes, but that will take a few years. Which means, all A343s be be retired on schedule after a full service life of around 23 - 25 years.
 
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DL717
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 4:02 pm

na wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Firm Orders:
A350 for Munich
789 for Frankfurt

Options and extra frames:
Leftovers to their partners

343's are done for as soon as they get enough planes in house.

Yes, but that will take a few years. Which means, all A343s be be retired on schedule after a full service life of around 23 - 25 years.


11 left. Gone by 2023. They planned for 2027.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 4:22 pm

Blerg wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So will LH have only A350s in MUC?


There has been some COVID shuffling to FRA, but the plan was MUC gets the first 25 IIRC then Frankfurt if they went with the options. 787-s were intended for Frankfurt and the partners. Early A346 retirement probably changed that thinking a bit, but generally, Frankfurt was second fiddle on the 350. Seems backward and I always thought it was, but that's what their plan was. Its possible the 787s will replace the 343's and the 350's the 346's given the COVID environment impacts that will be felt over their delivery schedule. Its interesting they picked up the 5 new 787s early. I'm all for it. 340 is a gas guzzler.


Is the A350 the smallest new generation aircraft in their fleet? Maybe that's why they were destined for MUC? They still lack the passenger volume FRA has.


The 789 is smaller than the A350.
Pre-Covid MUC was severely congested and the 3rd runway is nowhere in sight. FRA is not as bad. That's why they had started to move the A380's to MUC. Only way to keep growing at MUC was to up-gauge. That strategy apparently is carrying on post-Covid.
 
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DL717
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 4:59 pm

viennafly wrote:
It's going to be definitely LN 887,893,898,905&913. (https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa)

All with GENX-engines.


Where do you get the GENX engines. Fleets shows Trent.

Lets not forget this:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... challenges

Had a 24 hour target, but if you don't need it done in 24 hours...

Lufthansa 2021-06-01 DLH-B787-128199 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-05-15 DLH-B787-120433 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-06-01 DLH-B787-128200 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-06-01 DLH-B787-128201 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-06-01 DLH-B787-128202 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
A320B737NGCapt
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 6:15 pm

DL717 wrote:
viennafly wrote:
It's going to be definitely LN 887,893,898,905&913. (https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa)

All with GENX-engines.


Where do you get the GENX engines. Fleets shows Trent.

Lets not forget this:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... challenges

Had a 24 hour target, but if you don't need it done in 24 hours...

Lufthansa 2021-06-01 DLH-B787-128199 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-05-15 DLH-B787-120433 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-06-01 DLH-B787-128200 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-06-01 DLH-B787-128201 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)
Lufthansa 2022-06-01 DLH-B787-128202 Trent 1000-74 TEN (J3)


The 5 LN listed on that Lufthansa group fan site are Hainan/Vistara NTU 789’s with GEnx-1b, so that’s where he has got the GEnx from.

Does anyone have a definitive answer to which LN Lufthansa are actually taking?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 7:21 pm

Taking GE engines could make sense if this deal is part of the 777X delay compensation. But until the selection is officially confirmed it will remain just speculation.

ps.
ANA took delivery of a RR 787 last month, so the talk that they were not taking delivery of RR engines was just talk.
 
viennafly
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 8:12 pm

A320B737NGCapt wrote:

Does anyone have a definitive answer to which LN Lufthansa are actually taking?


Thats the 5 they will be taking ;-)
 
A320B737NGCapt
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 8:52 pm

viennafly wrote:
A320B737NGCapt wrote:

Does anyone have a definitive answer to which LN Lufthansa are actually taking?


Thats the 5 they will be taking ;-)


Do you have a credible source? Not an enthusiast tracking site? Any press releases from Lufthansa or Boeing?
 
Opus99
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 8:54 pm

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
viennafly wrote:
A320B737NGCapt wrote:

Does anyone have a definitive answer to which LN Lufthansa are actually taking?


Thats the 5 they will be taking ;-)


Do you have a credible source? Not an enthusiast tracking site? Any press releases from Lufthansa or Boeing?

Boeing or LH will never tell you the frames. We have to do the hard work
 
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DL717
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 11, 2021 9:14 pm

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
viennafly wrote:
A320B737NGCapt wrote:

Does anyone have a definitive answer to which LN Lufthansa are actually taking?


Thats the 5 they will be taking ;-)


Do you have a credible source? Not an enthusiast tracking site? Any press releases from Lufthansa or Boeing?


Mine's not an enthusiast site. Got friends in low places.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
viennafly
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 12, 2021 3:08 pm

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
viennafly wrote:
A320B737NGCapt wrote:

Does anyone have a definitive answer to which LN Lufthansa are actually taking?


Thats the 5 they will be taking ;-)


Do you have a credible source? Not an enthusiast tracking site? Any press releases from Lufthansa or Boeing?


Trust me, this is a credible source. These guys who run that site are usually pretty well informed concerning LH stuff. And by the way, thats also the numbers which have been played into internal LH systems.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 12, 2021 3:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

At the risk of stating the obvious: you realize that airlines can modify the outfitting/ratio of their cabins at any time, do you not?


You do realize that 600+ seat aircraft, which is what the A380 with a more normal J/Y ratio, is also nearly impossible to fill consistently? Same issue remains.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 12, 2021 4:39 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

At the risk of stating the obvious: you realize that airlines can modify the outfitting/ratio of their cabins at any time, do you not?


You do realize that 600+ seat aircraft, which is what the A380 with a more normal J/Y ratio, is also nearly impossible to fill consistently? Same issue remains.

But the 779, which if you were actually paying attention, is what the statement speaks to moving forward-- is not.

And since the quoted poster laments the issue of filling a massive number of business seats; a reconfigured 779, which is certified to hold less passengers than a smaller 77W (which a larger number of airlines CAN fill), would in practical application be less affected by such.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Okcflyer
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 12, 2021 4:59 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
At the risk of stating the obvious: you realize that airlines can modify the outfitting/ratio of their cabins at any time, do you not?


You do realize that 600+ seat aircraft, which is what the A380 with a more normal J/Y ratio, is also nearly impossible to fill consistently? Same issue remains.

But the 779, which if you were actually paying attention, is what the statement speaks to moving forward-- is not.

And since the quoted poster laments the issue of filling a massive number of business seats; a reconfigured 779, which is certified to hold less passengers than a smaller 77W (which a larger number of airlines CAN fill), would in practical application be less affected by such.


Apologies for the tone of my previous post. It was rather inappropriate. I absolutely agree that the 779 is in a better position than the A380 do the shear fact it's smaller. However, the outstanding question is whether it's still too large and whether it's per-seat efficiency advantage (over 787/A350) is large enough to entice enough operators to take the risk of the larger plane for a bigger reward. Fortunately LH is one that, so far, is betting on this risk.

That said, LH ordering more 789 and A350's is not a good trend for the future big bird of the skys.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Thu May 13, 2021 7:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
At the risk of stating the obvious: you realize that airlines can modify the outfitting/ratio of their cabins at any time, do you not?


You do realize that 600+ seat aircraft, which is what the A380 with a more normal J/Y ratio, is also nearly impossible to fill consistently? Same issue remains.

But the 779, which if you were actually paying attention, is what the statement speaks to moving forward-- is not.

And since the quoted poster laments the issue of filling a massive number of business seats; a reconfigured 779, which is certified to hold less passengers than a smaller 77W (which a larger number of airlines CAN fill), would in practical application be less affected by such.


The question then becomes: Can it be operated profitably with a smaller premium cabin?
All I'm saying is this: Whatever math LH used to justify buying the 779 pre-Pandemic has now gone out the window. And although I'm probably wrong, I have my doubts that they can make the math work any time soon. LH is not exactly known for being a backpacker airline. They are often the most expensive TATL option so filling a huge number of Y seats would require a serious change in their business strategy.
 
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DL717
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Thu May 13, 2021 10:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:

You do realize that 600+ seat aircraft, which is what the A380 with a more normal J/Y ratio, is also nearly impossible to fill consistently? Same issue remains.

But the 779, which if you were actually paying attention, is what the statement speaks to moving forward-- is not.

And since the quoted poster laments the issue of filling a massive number of business seats; a reconfigured 779, which is certified to hold less passengers than a smaller 77W (which a larger number of airlines CAN fill), would in practical application be less affected by such.


The question then becomes: Can it be operated profitably with a smaller premium cabin?
All I'm saying is this: Whatever math LH used to justify buying the 779 pre-Pandemic has now gone out the window. And although I'm probably wrong, I have my doubts that they can make the math work any time soon. LH is not exactly known for being a backpacker airline. They are often the most expensive TATL option so filling a huge number of Y seats would require a serious change in their business strategy.


Its not out the window. By the time they are delivered will be back where we were about 2015 if not better. People are ready to fly again.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
CDGIAD
Posts: 123
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 18, 2021 7:49 pm

When do you think we may see the first 789 repainted in LH livery?
 
Noshow
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 18, 2021 7:56 pm

Before year's end.
 
CDGIAD
Posts: 123
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 5:06 am

Noshow wrote:
Before year's end.
Obviously since the planes will be delivered at that time, I meant can we expect to see a fully painted one by the summer before it undergoes interior modifications and such.
 
Noshow
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 7:44 am

Rumors claim they will keep the original customer's cabin that had already been installed. So there might be not much need for major remodeling. A paint job takes two weeks or similar. Summer sounds a little early.
 
speedbird52
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 7:48 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?


Further on the way to the bottom I would not be surprised if they will configure the A350 ten abreast in economy. All recent developments at LH have not really been to enhance customer experience, but rather the opposite. I used to like them, having been a Senator member, these days I prefer alternatives however. Will be interesting to see how they are positioned post Corona.

Cheers

Peter


Totally agree. LH is a meh airline at best, with a very average business class product and though it likes to brand itself as a premium offering, it doesn't really live up to the hype it likes to give itself. LX and OS have a far superior product in the group.

Lufthansa's strength is its route network. LX and OS just don't have anything comparable.
 
Noshow
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 8:47 am

Lufthansa retired ALL their A380, A340-600 and 747-400 at the same time.
They need something to cover their main long distance routes, so they will need the 777-9 however later than originally planned. The delay is not so bad for them. And the 777 can carry lot of cargo so there is even less risk to break even with a flight.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 11:12 am

speedbird52 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day



Further on the way to the bottom I would not be surprised if they will configure the A350 ten abreast in economy. All recent developments at LH have not really been to enhance customer experience, but rather the opposite. I used to like them, having been a Senator member, these days I prefer alternatives however. Will be interesting to see how they are positioned post Corona.

Cheers

Peter


Totally agree. LH is a meh airline at best, with a very average business class product and though it likes to brand itself as a premium offering, it doesn't really live up to the hype it likes to give itself. LX and OS have a far superior product in the group.

Lufthansa's strength is its route network. LX and OS just don't have anything comparable.


LH does have a strong and well developed route network, yes. LX and OS, even pre-pandemic, were much smaller, but they have better service, a more premium feel to their experience when traveling in those cabins and leveraging their ground services for them, and better operations in most cases than LH.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 8:14 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
but they have better service, a more premium feel to their experience when traveling in those cabins and leveraging their ground services for them, and better operations in most cases than LH.

Which, during market troughs, really doesn't mean much of anything, if it can't be translated into a revenue premium.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 8:32 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
but they have better service, a more premium feel to their experience when traveling in those cabins and leveraging their ground services for them, and better operations in most cases than LH.

Which, during market troughs, really doesn't mean much of anything, if it can't be translated into a revenue premium.


Except that I wasn't talking about a market trough.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 8:39 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Which, during market troughs, really doesn't mean much of anything, if it can't be translated into a revenue premium.


What's your view on their prognosis as we get through this trough, and continue into the future? Can/should the perceived premium work, in the future? What would you think of either perhaps going the route of a 'niche' carrier, and capitalizing on a different experience to garner future sales/markets? Conceivably, without lower costs and the ability to perhaps cater to, and sustain them for longer than expected - these airlines may not survive. Your response was as brief, as it was concise, and bravo for that as well. Please pardon any ignorances on my part, I would genuinely like to have heard you expand on their perceived futures as we discuss changes across the larger brand as well.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 8:56 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
...leveraging their ground services for them, and better operations in most cases than LH.


May you expand a little more here, please. I ask in order to better understand this better. Can you provide a more practical example, perhaps?

I agree with the majority of you post, but think that sussing this part out is necessary, to further explain how effecting those perceived changes are affected across the network/trends as well. I mean, a rather delicate dance, as we try to move forward - and while we can certify little at this point, understanding the strengths at play here would help with future analysis. Is there anything close to past precedence at this point? (...and it's 2021, so I'll admit to having to rely upon creativity liberty here, if only to work with the matrix of credibility that is the current/past/present calculations).
 
oldJoe
Posts: 535
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Wed May 19, 2021 9:05 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Totally agree. LH is a meh airline at best, with a very average business class product and though it likes to brand itself as a premium offering, it doesn't really live up to the hype it likes to give itself. LX and OS have a far superior product in the group.

Lufthansa's strength is its route network. LX and OS just don't have anything comparable.


LH does have a strong and well developed route network, yes. LX and OS, even pre-pandemic, were much smaller, but they have better service, a more premium feel to their experience when traveling in those cabins and leveraging their ground services for them, and better operations in most cases than LH.


An airline is not a charity but a company that should make profit and great but almost empty planes especially at the front don't bring any profit !
From my own experience I can only say that I flew OS and LH in business.With OS we were three and 27 or 37 seats ( ? ) were empty. With LH I was upgraded to first :lol: because business was overbooked by one seat.
This is how an airline is profitable ! With a great product but loosing money you won`t survive.

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