LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:01 pm

LH has just announced an order for 5 new A350s and 5 new 787-9s

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/de/newsr ... zeuge.html

https://twitter.com/lufthansanews/statu ... 10598?s=21

And no, no 777Xs were swapped. These are all fresh. I think they will be used to replace exiting 380s

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:04 pm

Some more details:

787-9 are already built: white tails and will arrive in 2022

‘New A350 will arrive in 2027-2028

DUSZRH · Mon May 03, 2021 5:11 pm

Opus99 wrote:

And no, no 777Xs were swapped. These are all fresh. I think they will be used to replace exiting 380s

As Spohr announced in the Analyst Call (last week?), the delivery schedule of the 77X will be "restructured".

A320B737NGCapt · Mon May 03, 2021 5:20 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Some more details:

787-9 are already built: white tails and will arrive in 2022

‘New A350 will arrive in 2027-2028

Good News for Boeing and RR, I suspect they will be taking 4 of the Norwegian built and stored, LN 995, 971, 983, 1011, and possible ideas on the fifth?

RvA · Mon May 03, 2021 5:22 pm

Good stuff.

Momo1435 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:32 pm

Nice orders for both Airbus and Boeing during these difficult times.

Maybe a bit more for Boeing since they are taking the white tails, it's always good if they can place them at a major customer like this. Maybe it's a first sign of a new wide-body order rush to replace all the older planes that were retired last year. If you can already deliver in early 2022 it will obviously be very interesting for more airlines that might already need some extra capacity next year.

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation. Even though LH doesn't really mind the delay, if they can get a compensation from Boeing because the contractual delivery dates cannot be made they will of course take advantage of this.

For the A350 it will be interesting to know what kind of deal they got. The only reason why they might have gotten an extra discount is the current very difficult market situation where nobody really expects any major wide-body orders.

MIflyer12 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:34 pm

Momo1435 wrote:

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation.

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.

danipawa · Mon May 03, 2021 5:34 pm

Nice !

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation.

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.

Very good deal to me. You match demand to supply appropriately over the next few years

Noshow · Mon May 03, 2021 5:36 pm

A good moment to order for sure with some airlines having to delay or cancel their existing orders. Who's prebuilt 787-9 are these?

Momo1435 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation.

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.

That could also be the case, but since the 777X is delayed LH might not need to actively defer any deliveries.

As for the 787 frames they will take. There are the Norwegian frames of course, but I also believe there was some talk about ANA not taking any RR powered 787s anymore and Boeing has plenty of those in storage waiting for an uncertain delivery.

Someone83 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:44 pm

Then the question is, which are these 5 787 white tails

VSMUT · Mon May 03, 2021 5:46 pm

Noshow wrote:
A good moment to order for sure with some airlines having to delay or cancel their existing orders. Who's prebuilt 787-9 are these?

From a quick glance, I can see 4 Norwegians and 3 Vistaras that are NTU. The latter are former Hainan NTUs that Vistara ended up not taking as well. There is actually one more Norwegian 787 that was delivered but never entered service. There are some Juneyao and Air Europa birds that don't yet appear as NTU, but haven't been delivered despite having flown over a year ago.

Noshow · Mon May 03, 2021 5:50 pm

Interesting, thanks. So the shims are repaired already and they are good to go?

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 5:52 pm

Noshow wrote:
Interesting, thanks. So the shims are repaired already and they are good to go?

They might have to take those ones in for repairs. But it works well because you have to open up the aircraft anyway. Use that opportunity to do the cabin refitting etc

DUSZRH · Mon May 03, 2021 6:00 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Nice orders for both Airbus and Boeing during these difficult times.

Maybe a bit more for Boeing since they are taking the white tails, it's always good if they can place them at a major customer like this. Maybe it's a first sign of a new wide-body order rush to replace all the older planes that were retired last year. If you can already deliver in early 2022 it will obviously be very interesting for more airlines that might already need some extra capacity next year.

Not only that, but as they list the order tally of the A350 as 45, they're basically back at where they were December 2019. In Jan 2020, they cancelled 2 A350s (out of 5 which were reconfirmable). And now they ordered 5, but cancelled the remaining 3 apparently. So net it is 2.

kaitak · Mon May 03, 2021 6:00 pm

Will the 789s ultimately replace the A330s?

LHA320 · Mon May 03, 2021 6:08 pm

I guess the 4 Norwegian frames are a good bet. The fifth frame seems to be a great mystery. Maybe ln 688, what is going on with that frame?
Low serial number, hasn't even flown. Is there something wrong with it?

RvA · Mon May 03, 2021 6:11 pm

kaitak wrote:
Will the 789s ultimately replace the A330s?

Possibly but I’d also say the A343s are probably ready for replacement?

LHA320 · Mon May 03, 2021 6:18 pm

kaitak wrote:
Will the 789s ultimately replace the A330s?

At least not in the next 10 years. I guess it's a matter of available new aircraft models when the A330s are due for replacement.

Ronaldo747 · Mon May 03, 2021 6:28 pm

This is interesting to take the Norwegian 787, wondering about the differences with the specification of their new built ones. Having two subfleets? Could LH take the stored Norwegian planes as well?

JerseyFlyer · Mon May 03, 2021 6:38 pm

Will these 789s be the first delivered to LH?

asuflyer · Mon May 03, 2021 6:45 pm

Also Avianca had three 789 on order, I believe 1 is built and is in storage at AUH

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 6:50 pm

I think LH made a mistake. I think they had 43 350s on order already. So shouldn’t it be 48?

Capricorn · Mon May 03, 2021 7:03 pm

Good news for both OEMs. I think this order also puts to bed any eventuality of seeing A339s at LHG, as they would probably be readily available as well due to the AAX white tails.

346fetish · Mon May 03, 2021 7:08 pm

asuflyer wrote:
Also Avianca had three 789 on order, I believe 1 is built and is in storage at AUH

AV 789s have RR engines. LH 789s will have GEs I believe.

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 7:09 pm

346fetish wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
Also Avianca had three 789 on order, I believe 1 is built and is in storage at AUH

AV 789s have RR engines. LH 789s will have GEs I believe.

LH is RR

Blerg · Mon May 03, 2021 7:10 pm

Lufthansa ordered these planes but will they all go to LH? I have a feeling some of these planes might end up with OS, their long-haul aircraft are getting really old. Those B789s could replace the B772s.
With the A380s going out, I wouldn't be surprised if LH eventually adds more frequencies to their old destinations thus compensating for offering less seats once demand picks up.

Ronaldo747 · Mon May 03, 2021 7:24 pm

Smart move would be taking some used ex-Norwegian 787-8 and -9 for OS. The -8 would be a great replacement for their 767s.

DUSZRH · Mon May 03, 2021 7:26 pm

Opus99 wrote:
I think LH made a mistake. I think they had 43 350s on order already. So shouldn’t it be 48?

I explained it above. Apparently they canceled 3 at the same time.

airbazar · Mon May 03, 2021 7:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation.

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.

I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options

The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

Opus99 · Mon May 03, 2021 7:44 pm

airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation.

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.

I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

And you think LH will put 86 premium seats in a 777-9? Bear in mind it will now be 4 abreast instead of 6 or in some cases 7. With no first class even
You can try another argument. That one doesn’t make sense sorry.

Moreover the 779 sits about 100-120 less passengers.

Moreover you ignore the major problems with the 380. It was the cost proposition overall. Even when you don’t fill those seats the financial hit is too high. If you don’t fill a 779 you won’t receive that level of financial hit.

After all they still operate the 747-8 which is even larger than the 779 which makes your comment even more daft

Revelation · Mon May 03, 2021 7:46 pm

Opus99 wrote:
They might have to take those ones in for repairs. But it works well because you have to open up the aircraft anyway. Use that opportunity to do the cabin refitting etc

Delivery of 2023 suggests they will have time for any needed repairs.

fcogafa · Mon May 03, 2021 7:46 pm

FG says the five new A350s will be delivered in 2027 and 2028

jbs2886 · Mon May 03, 2021 7:54 pm

Great opportunistic purchase by LH, especially with the 787 white tails. Although things in the aviation world are bad, I think we will see a lot of this (see UA MAX orders, DL A312neos, etc.)

I'm still curious LH's long-term plan for Austrian longhaul with 767 and 777 retirements. Just seems ripe to get 8-10 787s (even used) and do a reset

a2b7 · Mon May 03, 2021 7:57 pm

Blerg wrote:
Lufthansa ordered these planes but will they all go to LH? I have a feeling some of these planes might end up with OS, their long-haul aircraft are getting really old. Those B789s could replace the B772s.
With the A380s going out, I wouldn't be surprised if LH eventually adds more frequencies to their old destinations thus compensating for offering less seats once demand picks up.

The press release says that the 10 orders announced today will all go to LH. I would make sense that some of the 20 B787-9s that were ordered before will go to Austrian, but 25 B787-9s are not enough to replace 17 A340-300, 6 B767s and 6 B777s one-by-one.

jbs2886 · Mon May 03, 2021 8:03 pm

a2b7 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Lufthansa ordered these planes but will they all go to LH? I have a feeling some of these planes might end up with OS, their long-haul aircraft are getting really old. Those B789s could replace the B772s.
With the A380s going out, I wouldn't be surprised if LH eventually adds more frequencies to their old destinations thus compensating for offering less seats once demand picks up.

The press release says that the 10 orders announced today will all go to LH. I would make sense that some of the 20 B787-9s that were ordered before will go to Austrian, but 25 B787-9s are not enough to replace 17 A340-300, 6 B767s and 6 B777s one-by-one.

As a2b7 noted, LH will operate. The PR states: "These aircraft will be operated by Lufthansa Airline and strengthen the 5-star premium offer of the Group’s core brand."

chiad · Mon May 03, 2021 8:12 pm

Opus99 wrote:
I think they will be used to replace exiting 380s

Appearently they be used to o replace older Airbus A340 planes.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-03/

jbs2886 · Mon May 03, 2021 8:15 pm

chiad wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think they will be used to replace exiting 380s

Appearently they be used to o replace older Airbus A340 planes.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-03/

Will be interesting if this means -300s or -600s. It appears the preference is to operate the -300s due to the cargo capacity IIRC. Which does LH plan to retire first? I will note that the A350s are pretty far out.

speedbird52 · Mon May 03, 2021 8:18 pm

This is a very specific number of aircraft, any idea if they are replacing something specific? IIRC there are 8 747-400s left in the fleet to replace

Blerg · Mon May 03, 2021 8:31 pm

Several B767 have already left OS fleet, OE-LAX just last week if I remember correctly. Will be interesting to see what happens to them in the end.I don't think LH Group will reduce long-haul at OS, it's basically the only thing they have going for them in their war against FR and W6.

Ziyulu · Mon May 03, 2021 8:35 pm

Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?

a2b7 · Mon May 03, 2021 8:55 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
chiad wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think they will be used to replace exiting 380s

Appearently they be used to o replace older Airbus A340 planes.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-03/

Will be interesting if this means -300s or -600s. It appears the preference is to operate the -300s due to the cargo capacity IIRC. Which does LH plan to retire first? I will note that the A350s are pretty far out.

Well, I think in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets, but for the long term my understanding is that the B787-9 replaces the LH A340-300, OS B767 and B777, the A350 replaces the A340-600 and some of the A380s, and the B777X replaces the B747-400 and some more A380s.

Heavierthanair · Mon May 03, 2021 9:13 pm

G'day

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?

Further on the way to the bottom I would not be surprised if they will configure the A350 ten abreast in economy. All recent developments at LH have not really been to enhance customer experience, but rather the opposite. I used to like them, having been a Senator member, these days I prefer alternatives however. Will be interesting to see how they are positioned post Corona.

Cheers

Peter

Yahnih · Mon May 03, 2021 9:52 pm

Yay SAN will either get an A350 or 787 coming it’s way

ContinentalEWR · Mon May 03, 2021 10:02 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?

Further on the way to the bottom I would not be surprised if they will configure the A350 ten abreast in economy. All recent developments at LH have not really been to enhance customer experience, but rather the opposite. I used to like them, having been a Senator member, these days I prefer alternatives however. Will be interesting to see how they are positioned post Corona.

Cheers

Peter

Totally agree. LH is a meh airline at best, with a very average business class product and though it likes to brand itself as a premium offering, it doesn't really live up to the hype it likes to give itself. LX and OS have a far superior product in the group.

airbazar · Mon May 03, 2021 11:03 pm

Opus99 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.

I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

And you think LH will put 86 premium seats in a 777-9? Bear in mind it will now be 4 abreast instead of 6 or in some cases 7. With no first class even
You can try another argument. That one doesn’t make sense sorry.

I think you missed my point. However many premium seats LH was planning to put on them will be too many in the new, post-Covid world of reduced corporate travel.

Opus99 wrote:
After all they still operate the 747-8 which is even larger than the 779 which makes your comment even more daft

Another reason why they don't need the 779.
The writing is on the wall for the 779 at LH, IMO.

jbs2886 · Mon May 03, 2021 11:06 pm

airbazar wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
airbazar wrote:

I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

And you think LH will put 86 premium seats in a 777-9? Bear in mind it will now be 4 abreast instead of 6 or in some cases 7. With no first class even
You can try another argument. That one doesn’t make sense sorry.

I think you missed my point. However many premium seats LH was planning to put on them will be too many in the new, post-Covid world of reduced corporate travel.
Opus99 wrote:
After all they still operate the 747-8 which is even larger than the 779 which makes your comment even more daft

Another reason why they don't need the 779.
The writing is on the wall for the 779 at LH, IMO.

Can we not turn ANOTHER LH thread into "777X is dead" and "LH doesn't need it" - in part because LH literally just said the opposite: “We stand by our 777-9 orders… We think it is the right aircraft for us, especially now that it is coming later.

LAX772LR · Mon May 03, 2021 11:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.

At the risk of stating the obvious: you realize that airlines can modify the outfitting/ratio of their cabins at any time, do you not?

MEA-707 · Mon May 03, 2021 11:40 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?

Further on the way to the bottom I would not be surprised if they will configure the A350 ten abreast in economy. All recent developments at LH have not really been to enhance customer experience, but rather the opposite. I used to like them, having been a Senator member, these days I prefer alternatives however. Will be interesting to see how they are positioned post Corona.

Cheers

Peter

Will not happen. 3-3-3 on the 787 is the industry standard in Y, same like on the A350. Only JAL still has 2-4-2 on their 787s (but for how long)? Even all the cheapo airlines which were quick in reconfiguring their 777s with 3-4-3 are still taking A350s with 3-3-3, the standard Y configuration. Only a very few LCC's like French Bee put's ten abreast in an A350, the same as there are only a handful of airlines who'd put eight in a 767.

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