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777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 12:34 am

Guess that gives people only a few more months to fly on a LH A340-300
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 2:25 am

a2b7 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
chiad wrote:

Appearently they be used to o replace older Airbus A340 planes.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-05-03/


Will be interesting if this means -300s or -600s. It appears the preference is to operate the -300s due to the cargo capacity IIRC. Which does LH plan to retire first? I will note that the A350s are pretty far out.

Well, I think in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets, but for the long term my understanding is that the B787-9 replaces the LH A340-300, OS B767 and B777, the A350 replaces the A340-600 and some of the A380s, and the B777X replaces the B747-400 and some more A380s.


I've been thinking about this news throughout the day. First off, the website below (which has been pretty accurate based off what I've seen) lists that 3 787s will be online on December 1, 2021 (presumably that's a rough date, scroll to the very bottom).
https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

That would line up with LH's comments stating that some would arrive in winter and the rest would arrive in early 2022. LH claims that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft. However, as a2b7 pointed out, there is a possibility that "in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets." Looking at the initial numbers, there are currently 8 parked 744s. These 744s are the only aircraft out of the 3 (A346, A380, 744) that are anywhere in LH's schedule still (BOM/IAD/YYZ starting August 1). I've heard that back in March LH planned to phase out another 2-3 aircraft (bringing the total to 5-6 744s). Based off that number, and given that LH ordered exactly 5 787s today, I think that conclusion is spot on.

The question is, what would they even do with 3 787s in the winter? I'd assume they'd need to first go through training and then likely be deployed on one route (one outbound, one inbound, one spare)....?

I've been considering (for a few weeks now) a trip on IAD-FRA this winter on the 744...I hope it's not too late... :cry:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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aeromoe
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:09 am

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?


As opposed to...?
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jbs2886
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:33 am

aeromoe wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?


As opposed to...?


2-4-2 (or 8 across)…
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:37 am

VCVSpotter wrote:

That would line up with LH's comments stating that some would arrive in winter and the rest would arrive in early 2022. LH claims that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft. However, as a2b7 pointed out, there is a possibility that "in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets." Looking at the initial numbers, there are currently 8 parked 744s. These 744s are the only aircraft out of the 3 (A346, A380, 744) that are anywhere in LH's schedule still (BOM/IAD/YYZ starting August 1). I've heard that back in March LH planned to phase out another 2-3 aircraft (bringing the total to 5-6 744s). Based off that number, and given that LH ordered exactly 5 787s today, I think that conclusion is spot on.

The question is, what would they even do with 3 787s in the winter? I'd assume they'd need to first go through training and then likely be deployed on one route (one outbound, one inbound, one spare)....?

I've been considering (for a few weeks now) a trip on IAD-FRA this winter on the 744...I hope it's not too late... :cry:
[/quote][/quote]

Here's my take:

Lufthansa Group had already made the decision that the B789 was going to be their A343 replacement back when they ordered 25 (with options for 20 more) before the pandemic. However, I think Lufthansa is taking these 5 recently-added B789's early to take advantage of current demand lull, which will allow them to establish training and MRO programs for the a new type (to LH).

As for LH's B744 fleet, the 8 remaining are currently in short-term storage and may, or may not return to service. The same goes for their A388 fleet where 8 are in storage in Germany and France and the remaining 6 have been retired to long-term storage in Spain.
 
SR100
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:03 am

...and here is another thought to take LH's statement "that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft" literally: There are 5 A340-300 in the fleet of LX. Why not replace them? Especially since in another pre Covid-19 LH statement about the replacement of the longhaul equipment in the OS fleet, it has been said that OS first needs to return to profitability. Currently this is challenging for all airlines, however LX has been, being the cash cow in the LH group.
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777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:46 am

SR100 wrote:
...and here is another thought to take LH's statement "that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft" literally: There are 5 A340-300 in the fleet of LX. Why not replace them? Especially since in another pre Covid-19 LH statement about the replacement of the longhaul equipment in the OS fleet, it has been said that OS first needs to return to profitability. Currently this is challenging for all airlines, however LX has been, being the cash cow in the LH group.


They are supposed to be around until 2025, as of a few months ago anyways.
 
VSMUT
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 5:58 am

SR100 wrote:
There are 5 A340-300 in the fleet of LX. Why not replace them?


The Lufthansa A340 fleet is a couple of years older than the Swiss A340 fleet. Lufthansa's are from between 1996 and 2001. Swiss' were delivered between 2003 and 2004. Further, Swiss just refurbished its A340s with the new interior on the 777.

Personally I don't get the rush from enthusiasts to replace the Swiss A340s. The A340-300 is a nicer ride for the passenger, quieter than a 787.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 am

Are the NTU Norwegian 787's in full Norwegian livery or literally 'white tails' as suggested ? I know the 787-9 delivered straight to storage at Prestwick was fully painted.
 
VSMUT
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 6:52 am

JannEejit wrote:
Are the NTU Norwegian 787's in full Norwegian livery or literally 'white tails' as suggested ? I know the 787-9 delivered straight to storage at Prestwick was fully painted.


Fully painted. Same for the other NTU 787s.
 
LH779
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 7:30 am

airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:

It's also very possible that LH got a good deal on these 787s as part of a 777X delay compensation.


I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.


I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options :o
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.


If the number of premium seats was the big problem of the A380 at LH, why did they choose to install the same amount of premium seats in their 748s?
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 8:37 am

LH779 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I was going to come at this from the other direction: LH buys a few 787-9s to get a 777X deferral.


I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options :o
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.


If the number of premium seats was the big problem of the A380 at LH, why did they choose to install the same amount of premium seats in their 748s?


That’s what I thought, I think the extra 120Y seats on the A380 are the problem as well as having less freight capacity than the 748I, there are a few routes where the A380 worked in good times, not sure BKK worked but it got them more for the Y capacity, weather they made money there or not I have no idea. They probably worked to LAX/JNB/HKG maybe SFO/MIA seasonally, not sure about China India routes. In the end to expensive to operate.
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 9:12 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
LH779 wrote:
airbazar wrote:

I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options :o
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.


If the number of premium seats was the big problem of the A380 at LH, why did they choose to install the same amount of premium seats in their 748s?


That’s what I thought, I think the extra 120Y seats on the A380 are the problem .


They probably wouldn´t have a 308 Y-Seat 744 if that was a problem either. LH does keep configs for all cases.

High Premium, low Y demand: send 8F/56C/28PE A346, Lots of demand up and down the classes: send A388. Any combination in between: Send one of the 747 Variants.

as well as having less freight capacity than the 748I


While LH certainly loves Cargo, i am not sure that those A388 destinations are not served by enough belly cargo space to make cargo marginal for route economics.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 9:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
LH779 wrote:

If the number of premium seats was the big problem of the A380 at LH, why did they choose to install the same amount of premium seats in their 748s?


That’s what I thought, I think the extra 120Y seats on the A380 are the problem .


They probably wouldn´t have a 308 Y-Seat 744 if that was a problem either. LH does keep configs for all cases.

High Premium, low Y demand: send 8F/56C/28PE A346, Lots of demand up and down the classes: send A388. Any combination in between: Send one of the 747 Variants.

as well as having less freight capacity than the 748I


While LH certainly loves Cargo, i am not sure that those A388 destinations are not served by enough belly cargo space to make cargo marginal for route economics.

best regards
Thomas


The 744 configuration is different though with a lot less premium seats and no F compared to the A380.

Lack of freight capacity certainly hasn’t helped the A380 during COVID, not that they were as you say brought for freight hauling but more high capacity pax routes.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 10:09 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Ziyulu wrote:
Do you think economy on the 787 will be 3-3-3?


Further on the way to the bottom I would not be surprised if they will configure the A350 ten abreast in economy. All recent developments at LH have not really been to enhance customer experience, but rather the opposite. I used to like them, having been a Senator member, these days I prefer alternatives however. Will be interesting to see how they are positioned post Corona.

Cheers

Peter


Totally agree. LH is a meh airline at best, with a very average business class product and though it likes to brand itself as a premium offering, it doesn't really live up to the hype it likes to give itself. LX and OS have a far superior product in the group.


The only really great thing about LH is its network, it offers pretty great connectivity especially via FRA.
 
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conaly
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 10:47 am

According to aero.de, those early 787-9 (entry to service winter 2021/22) will get an upgraded business class. It will NOT be the announces new business class that was supposed to be introduced with the 777X. The upgraded business class on the Dreamliner will be similar to the current one, but every C-seat will have direct aisle access.

Source (German): https://www.aero.de/news-39551/Lufthans ... Class.html
Recommend DeepL for translation: https://www.deepl.com/

Interesting to see, how they want to implement the aisle access to all seats, as currently there are fixed pair seats (2-2-2) on all widebody aircraft except the 747-400 that has three seats in the middle. I guess there gonna be some staggered seats at the sides this time.
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Opus99
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 10:55 am

conaly wrote:
According to aero.de, those early 787-9 (entry to service winter 2021/22) will get an upgraded business class. It will NOT be the announces new business class that was supposed to be introduced with the 777X. The upgraded business class on the Dreamliner will be similar to the current one, but every C-seat will have direct aisle access.

Source (German): https://www.aero.de/news-39551/Lufthans ... Class.html
Recommend DeepL for translation: https://www.deepl.com/

Interesting to see, how they want to implement the aisle access to all seats, as currently there are fixed pair seats (2-2-2) on all widebody aircraft except the 747-400 that has three seats in the middle. I guess there gonna be some staggered seats at the sides this time.

I’m thinking similar to what Korean and JAL have on their 787s. The sky suite I think it’s called. That would be very nice, especially with LH interior colours
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 11:06 am

Wasn't it more logical to boost A350 deliveries and let A343s go while B789s can be divided between group airlines?
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 11:10 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

That’s what I thought, I think the extra 120Y seats on the A380 are the problem .


They probably wouldn´t have a 308 Y-Seat 744 if that was a problem either. LH does keep configs for all cases.

High Premium, low Y demand: send 8F/56C/28PE A346, Lots of demand up and down the classes: send A388. Any combination in between: Send one of the 747 Variants.

as well as having less freight capacity than the 748I


While LH certainly loves Cargo, i am not sure that those A388 destinations are not served by enough belly cargo space to make cargo marginal for route economics.

best regards
Thomas


The 744 configuration is different though with a lot less premium seats and no F compared to the A380.


Which is relevant how to "It has too many Y-Seats"?
Of course it is a different configuration, that was the point.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
airbazar
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 1:28 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
LH779 wrote:
airbazar wrote:

I expect LH will take as many 779's as they took A380 options :o
The A380's biggest problem at LH was their massive number of premium seats and finding markets to fill them consistently. With corporate travel slow to rebound post pandemic, that puts the 779 in the same type of conundrum, IMO.


If the number of premium seats was the big problem of the A380 at LH, why did they choose to install the same amount of premium seats in their 748s?


That’s what I thought, I think the extra 120Y seats on the A380 are the problem as well as having less freight capacity than the 748I, there are a few routes where the A380 worked in good times, not sure BKK worked but it got them more for the Y capacity, weather they made money there or not I have no idea. They probably worked to LAX/JNB/HKG maybe SFO/MIA seasonally, not sure about China India routes. In the end to expensive to operate.


There are very few routes from Germany that can fill a large number of premium seats as well as a large number of economy seats. That's the type of market where the A380 excels. Most markets are either predominantly premium or predominantly leisure. The 748 works really well in markets that are predominantly premium. LH has A359's with more Y seats than their 748 :shock: The 779 could be a good replacement for the 748 at some point in the future just like the 77W was a good replacement for the 744 at many airlines, assuming nothing better comes along. That could very well be why they are happy with the delays.
 
LH779
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 2:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
LH has A359's with more Y seats than their 748 :shock:

While LH's website shows multiple seating configs for their aircraft, AFAIK all 748s are in 8 / 80 / 32 / 244 and all A359s in 48 / 21 / 224 config. Obviously still a huge difference in premium/eco ratio though.
 
777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 2:37 pm

VSMUT wrote:
SR100 wrote:
There are 5 A340-300 in the fleet of LX. Why not replace them?


The Lufthansa A340 fleet is a couple of years older than the Swiss A340 fleet. Lufthansa's are from between 1996 and 2001. Swiss' were delivered between 2003 and 2004. Further, Swiss just refurbished its A340s with the new interior on the 777.

Personally I don't get the rush from enthusiasts to replace the Swiss A340s. The A340-300 is a nicer ride for the passenger, quieter than a 787.


I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts
 
DALCE
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 2:51 pm

777luver wrote:

I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts


True, the fuelbill + engine MX combined makes the 340-300 operating cost roughly on par with the 330-300's. Fuel bill is slightly higer on the 340, engine MX is slightly lower. The main difference in operating the types is the range, hence SWISS is using all 340's and most 330's are parked in AMM.
Obviously there's more to it, but as a rule of thumb this is about right.
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Re: LH: 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:10 pm

Opus99 wrote:
787-9 are already built: white tails and will arrive in 2022


Why so long? If they're already built? Or does LH just not want them on the property yet because they don't have a use for them at the current time?
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777luver
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:11 pm

DALCE wrote:
777luver wrote:

I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts


True, the fuelbill + engine MX combined makes the 340-300 operating cost roughly on par with the 330-300's. Fuel bill is slightly higer on the 340, engine MX is slightly lower. The main difference in operating the types is the range, hence SWISS is using all 340's and most 330's are parked in AMM.
Obviously there's more to it, but as a rule of thumb this is about right.


Thanks for the further info. Not sure how much more range the A340 has over the A330. It's too bad there's the "oh its a A340, it must suck and its really old" vibe sometimes on here, it's a beautiful airplane.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: LH: 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:14 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
787-9 are already built: white tails and will arrive in 2022


Why so long? If they're already built? Or does LH just not want them on the property yet because they don't have a use for them at the current time?


Time to re-configure to LH requirements?
 
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Polot
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Re: LH: 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:15 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
787-9 are already built: white tails and will arrive in 2022


Why so long? If they're already built? Or does LH just not want them on the property yet because they don't have a use for them at the current time?

Need to get LH interior ordered and outfitted and crews trained. Remember this is a brand new type for the group, they are not already operating 787s.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:20 pm

777luver wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
SR100 wrote:
There are 5 A340-300 in the fleet of LX. Why not replace them?


The Lufthansa A340 fleet is a couple of years older than the Swiss A340 fleet. Lufthansa's are from between 1996 and 2001. Swiss' were delivered between 2003 and 2004. Further, Swiss just refurbished its A340s with the new interior on the 777.

Personally I don't get the rush from enthusiasts to replace the Swiss A340s. The A340-300 is a nicer ride for the passenger, quieter than a 787.


I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts


The -600’s Problem is engine MX. It’s not that much worse than a 77W on fuel. The -300 has the engine commonality, so it’s really competitive on engine MX, even though it has double the engines.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:24 pm

777luver wrote:
Guess that gives people only a few more months to fly on a LH A340-300

And zero chance to fly on a LH A380. It won't return, with six of 14 being sold back to Airbus:

Out of 115 a/c phased out @lufthansa has sold 19 already says CEO Carsten Spohr at AGM, 3x MD-11, 3x 744, 7xA319 and 6x A220. #A380 won't return, 6 of 14 sold to @Airbus effective 2022/23 #avgeek

Ref: https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 7958457349

The A220 was a mistake, it refers to BBD Q series, not C series.
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:29 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
777luver wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The Lufthansa A340 fleet is a couple of years older than the Swiss A340 fleet. Lufthansa's are from between 1996 and 2001. Swiss' were delivered between 2003 and 2004. Further, Swiss just refurbished its A340s with the new interior on the 777.

Personally I don't get the rush from enthusiasts to replace the Swiss A340s. The A340-300 is a nicer ride for the passenger, quieter than a 787.


I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts


The -600’s Problem is engine MX. It’s not that much worse than a 77W on fuel. The -300 has the engine commonality, so it’s really competitive on engine MX, even though it has double the engines.

Eh, the -500/600 has other indirect problems too which effect fuel burn beyond sfc, such as weight. Engine MX cost is not it’s only issue.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:39 pm

conaly wrote:
According to aero.de, those early 787-9 (entry to service winter 2021/22) will get an upgraded business class. It will NOT be the announces new business class that was supposed to be introduced with the 777X. The upgraded business class on the Dreamliner will be similar to the current one, but every C-seat will have direct aisle access.

Source (German): https://www.aero.de/news-39551/Lufthans ... Class.html
Recommend DeepL for translation: https://www.deepl.com/

Interesting to see, how they want to implement the aisle access to all seats, as currently there are fixed pair seats (2-2-2) on all widebody aircraft except the 747-400 that has three seats in the middle. I guess there gonna be some staggered seats at the sides this time.


Gotta wonder if they are actually Lufthansa's own seats or maybe in fact the former customers, as a temporary solution? Are there any airlines we can find with a business class seat that matches the description?

Oman Air has been returning aircraft, and has 6 787-9s on order. Those have a 2-2-2 configuration with aisle access.


DocLightning wrote:
Why so long? If they're already built? Or does LH just not want them on the property yet because they don't have a use for them at the current time?


First you have to drag them out of storage and reactivate them (and fix the worst bugs), then fly them to a maintenance facility for refurbish and finishing. Interiors aren't something you get from one day to the next. Then it needs to go for a repaint. 7 months is actually pretty fast.
Last edited by VSMUT on Tue May 04, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Opus99
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:42 pm

VSMUT wrote:
conaly wrote:
According to aero.de, those early 787-9 (entry to service winter 2021/22) will get an upgraded business class. It will NOT be the announces new business class that was supposed to be introduced with the 777X. The upgraded business class on the Dreamliner will be similar to the current one, but every C-seat will have direct aisle access.

Source (German): https://www.aero.de/news-39551/Lufthans ... Class.html
Recommend DeepL for translation: https://www.deepl.com/

Interesting to see, how they want to implement the aisle access to all seats, as currently there are fixed pair seats (2-2-2) on all widebody aircraft except the 747-400 that has three seats in the middle. I guess there gonna be some staggered seats at the sides this time.


Gotta wonder if they are actually Lufthansa's own seats or maybe in fact the former customers, as a temporary solution? Are there any airlines we can find with a business class seat that matches the description?


DocLightning wrote:
Why so long? If they're already built? Or does LH just not want them on the property yet because they don't have a use for them at the current time?


First you have to drag them out of storage and reactivate them (and fix the worst bugs), then fly them to a maintenance facility for refurbish and finishing. Interiors aren't something you get from one day to the next. Then it needs to go for a repaint. 7 months is actually pretty fast.

It might not already be installed but they would have to get seats very quickly. So you have to go to seat manufacturers and find that’s available with such a short lead time. So it may still be Norwegian frames that will be stripped with their own seats but this is pretty much buying interiors that are “in stock” maybe from customers who haven’t taken their planes or have deferred delivery till 2024 or stuff like that. It won’t be hard to find
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:46 pm

So with 45 (perhaps more to come) units of the A350 it will be the new longhaul mainstay of LH.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:47 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
777luver wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The Lufthansa A340 fleet is a couple of years older than the Swiss A340 fleet. Lufthansa's are from between 1996 and 2001. Swiss' were delivered between 2003 and 2004. Further, Swiss just refurbished its A340s with the new interior on the 777.

Personally I don't get the rush from enthusiasts to replace the Swiss A340s. The A340-300 is a nicer ride for the passenger, quieter than a 787.


I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts


The -600’s Problem is engine MX. It’s not that much worse than a 77W on fuel. The -300 has the engine commonality, so it’s really competitive on engine MX, even though it has double the engines.


Oh okay. So there's a misconception out there. I didn't even know it's not much worse than the 77W on fuel. What makes the engine MX so expensive? I feel I've read on here it's because it's a one off engine produced from the manufacturer or something like that? Trent? Please correct me if I'm wrong
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:48 pm

A321Lufthansa wrote:
Wasn't it more logical to boost A350 deliveries and let A343s go while B789s can be divided between group airlines?

We don't know exactly what LH was offered, but we do know the 787s have 2022 delivery whereas the A350s have 2027-8 delivery so delivery date probably was a factor.

It could also help that 787 is the smaller aircraft and the covid recovery curve means the smaller aircraft is favored.

We know Airbus has a smaller wide body aircraft they could have offered, with a bunch of white tails said to be available, one that LH's A340 pilots could fly with next to no time spent on training, with state of the art engines, and one whose production line is capable of much higher levels of production. Maybe Airbus offered and LH declined?

It is also interesting that LH is deeply in debt and says it wants to pay back the government loans first and foremost but are willing to make financial commitments for new aircraft purchases. I get it, the crisis has meant their fleet is far from optimal, but it seems they could have chosen to make do with A340 longer than desirable and conserve cash. It would have been a complex decision. I wish we had more insight into their thoughts.
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:48 pm

Polot wrote:
DUSZRH wrote:
777luver wrote:

I feel like there's a lot of people out there who have the opinion that the -300 is a gas guzzler (it isnt) and aren't or don't know that you have to differentiate the -300 from the -600 which isn't fuel friendly. Also, there may be a notion that "old" (they aren't that old) needs to be replaced with better and new as fast as possible just because it's old. Just my thoughts


The -600’s Problem is engine MX. It’s not that much worse than a 77W on fuel. The -300 has the engine commonality, so it’s really competitive on engine MX, even though it has double the engines.

Eh, the -500/600 has other indirect problems too which effect fuel burn beyond sfc, such as weight. Engine MX cost is not it’s only issue.


What other issues are there?
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
A321Lufthansa wrote:
Wasn't it more logical to boost A350 deliveries and let A343s go while B789s can be divided between group airlines?

We don't know exactly what LH was offered, but we do know the 787s have 2022 delivery whereas the A350s have 2027-8 delivery so delivery date probably was a factor.

It could also help that 787 is the smaller aircraft and the covid recovery curve means the smaller aircraft is favored.

We know Airbus has a smaller wide body aircraft they could have offered, with a bunch of white tails said to be available, one that LH's A340 pilots could fly with next to no time spent on training, with state of the art engines, and one whose production line is capable of much higher levels of production. Maybe Airbus offered and LH declined?

It is also interesting that LH is deeply in debt and says it wants to pay back the government loans first and foremost but are willing to make financial commitments for new aircraft purchases. I get it, the crisis has meant their fleet is far from optimal, but it seems they could have chosen to make do with A340 longer than desirable and conserve cash. It would have been a complex decision. I wish we had more insight into their thoughts.


Regarding the A340s, there's a lot of armchair fleet planners who cannot understand why LH kept their A343s longer than most airlines, they cannot fathom an airline doing that :p
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 3:57 pm

777luver wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A321Lufthansa wrote:
Wasn't it more logical to boost A350 deliveries and let A343s go while B789s can be divided between group airlines?

We don't know exactly what LH was offered, but we do know the 787s have 2022 delivery whereas the A350s have 2027-8 delivery so delivery date probably was a factor.

It could also help that 787 is the smaller aircraft and the covid recovery curve means the smaller aircraft is favored.

We know Airbus has a smaller wide body aircraft they could have offered, with a bunch of white tails said to be available, one that LH's A340 pilots could fly with next to no time spent on training, with state of the art engines, and one whose production line is capable of much higher levels of production. Maybe Airbus offered and LH declined?

It is also interesting that LH is deeply in debt and says it wants to pay back the government loans first and foremost but are willing to make financial commitments for new aircraft purchases. I get it, the crisis has meant their fleet is far from optimal, but it seems they could have chosen to make do with A340 longer than desirable and conserve cash. It would have been a complex decision. I wish we had more insight into their thoughts.


Regarding the A340s, there's a lot of armchair fleet planners who cannot understand why LH kept their A343s longer than most airlines, they cannot fathom an airline doing that :p

Would it be like BA and the 747?
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:01 pm

Opus99 wrote:
777luver wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We don't know exactly what LH was offered, but we do know the 787s have 2022 delivery whereas the A350s have 2027-8 delivery so delivery date probably was a factor.

It could also help that 787 is the smaller aircraft and the covid recovery curve means the smaller aircraft is favored.

We know Airbus has a smaller wide body aircraft they could have offered, with a bunch of white tails said to be available, one that LH's A340 pilots could fly with next to no time spent on training, with state of the art engines, and one whose production line is capable of much higher levels of production. Maybe Airbus offered and LH declined?

It is also interesting that LH is deeply in debt and says it wants to pay back the government loans first and foremost but are willing to make financial commitments for new aircraft purchases. I get it, the crisis has meant their fleet is far from optimal, but it seems they could have chosen to make do with A340 longer than desirable and conserve cash. It would have been a complex decision. I wish we had more insight into their thoughts.


Regarding the A340s, there's a lot of armchair fleet planners who cannot understand why LH kept their A343s longer than most airlines, they cannot fathom an airline doing that :p

Would it be like BA and the 747?


I think so. I mean every is entitled to an opinion it's just funny to see
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:01 pm

777luver wrote:
What makes the engine MX so expensive? I feel I've read on here it's because it's a one off engine produced from the manufacturer or something like that? Trent? Please correct me if I'm wrong

Wiki sez:

The Trent 500 exclusively powers the larger A340-500/600 variants. It was selected in June 1997, first ran in May 1999, first flew in June 2000, and achieved certification on 15 December 2000. It entered service in July 2002 and 524 engines were delivered on-wing until the A340 production ended in 2011. Keeping the three spool architecture of the Trent family, it has the Trent 700's 2.47 m (97.5 in) fan and a Trent 800 core scaled down. It produces up to 275 kN (61,900 lbf) of thrust at take-off and has a bypass ratio up to 8.5:1 in cruise.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... #Trent_500

So it's an engine produced after the 777 engine and before the A380 engine. I think the "Trent 800 core scaled down" part is probably what makes it a one-off.

777luver wrote:
Polot wrote:
Eh, the -500/600 has other indirect problems too which effect fuel burn beyond sfc, such as weight. Engine MX cost is not it’s only issue.

What other issues are there?

Some say 500/600 fell into the "stretch too far" category where adding length required the rest of the fuse to need strengthening thus ending up with a too-heavy frame.

It's main issue is that it was beat out by 77W in terms of efficiency, so 777 ended up with greater economy of scale, making 500/600 more expensive to operate.

You can cherry pick cases that make the 600 look decent enough, but overall, it lost out to 777 and its is now fading into the sunset.
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:18 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
conaly wrote:
According to aero.de, those early 787-9 (entry to service winter 2021/22) will get an upgraded business class. It will NOT be the announces new business class that was supposed to be introduced with the 777X. The upgraded business class on the Dreamliner will be similar to the current one, but every C-seat will have direct aisle access.

Source (German): https://www.aero.de/news-39551/Lufthans ... Class.html
Recommend DeepL for translation: https://www.deepl.com/

Interesting to see, how they want to implement the aisle access to all seats, as currently there are fixed pair seats (2-2-2) on all widebody aircraft except the 747-400 that has three seats in the middle. I guess there gonna be some staggered seats at the sides this time.


Gotta wonder if they are actually Lufthansa's own seats or maybe in fact the former customers, as a temporary solution? Are there any airlines we can find with a business class seat that matches the description?


DocLightning wrote:
Why so long? If they're already built? Or does LH just not want them on the property yet because they don't have a use for them at the current time?


First you have to drag them out of storage and reactivate them (and fix the worst bugs), then fly them to a maintenance facility for refurbish and finishing. Interiors aren't something you get from one day to the next. Then it needs to go for a repaint. 7 months is actually pretty fast.

It might not already be installed but they would have to get seats very quickly. So you have to go to seat manufacturers and find that’s available with such a short lead time. So it may still be Norwegian frames that will be stripped with their own seats but this is pretty much buying interiors that are “in stock” maybe from customers who haven’t taken their planes or have deferred delivery till 2024 or stuff like that. It won’t be hard to find


On Flyertalk there is a user stating that this is the new group-wide business class seat, that is going on Austrian and Swiss planes as well. New A350s will be delivered from the factory with them from 2023.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:29 pm

777luver wrote:
Regarding the A340s, there's a lot of armchair fleet planners who cannot understand why LH kept their A343s longer than most airlines, they cannot fathom an airline doing that :p

Our longest running meme here on a.net was when/if DL would ever get rid of their DC-9s.

There's a lot to be said for an aircraft that is already paid for and is still somewhat efficient with regard to fuel burn.

As above, it must have been some interesting calculations at LH on whether or not to take more 789s or stick with A340s.
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
What makes the engine MX so expensive? I feel I've read on here it's because it's a one off engine produced from the manufacturer or something like that? Trent? Please correct me if I'm wrong

Wiki sez:

The Trent 500 exclusively powers the larger A340-500/600 variants. It was selected in June 1997, first ran in May 1999, first flew in June 2000, and achieved certification on 15 December 2000. It entered service in July 2002 and 524 engines were delivered on-wing until the A340 production ended in 2011. Keeping the three spool architecture of the Trent family, it has the Trent 700's 2.47 m (97.5 in) fan and a Trent 800 core scaled down. It produces up to 275 kN (61,900 lbf) of thrust at take-off and has a bypass ratio up to 8.5:1 in cruise.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... #Trent_500

So it's an engine produced after the 777 engine and before the A380 engine. I think the "Trent 800 core scaled down" part is probably what makes it a one-off.

777luver wrote:
Polot wrote:
Eh, the -500/600 has other indirect problems too which effect fuel burn beyond sfc, such as weight. Engine MX cost is not it’s only issue.

What other issues are there?

Some say 500/600 fell into the "stretch too far" category where adding length required the rest of the fuse to need strengthening thus ending up with a too-heavy frame.

It's main issue is that it was beat out by 77W in terms of efficiency, so 777 ended up with greater economy of scale, making 500/600 more expensive to operate.

You can cherry pick cases that make the 600 look decent enough, but overall, it lost out to 777 and its is now fading into the sunset.


Thanks for all the extra info, makes the 346 a niche airplane it seems.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
777luver wrote:
Regarding the A340s, there's a lot of armchair fleet planners who cannot understand why LH kept their A343s longer than most airlines, they cannot fathom an airline doing that :p

Our longest running meme here on a.net was when/if DL would ever get rid of their DC-9s.

There's a lot to be said for an aircraft that is already paid for and is still somewhat efficient with regard to fuel burn.

As above, it must have been some interesting calculations at LH on whether or not to take more 789s or stick with A340s.


Must've been a long running meme :p. Too bad airlines don't say more about their decision making other than the usual corporate jargon
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 4:41 pm

Seems as all this is happening LH also got share holder approval to raise EUR 5.5B on the market, much of which will be used to buy out the government stake that was taken during this crisis.

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -investors
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 5:32 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:

That would line up with LH's comments stating that some would arrive in winter and the rest would arrive in early 2022. LH claims that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft. However, as a2b7 pointed out, there is a possibility that "in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets." Looking at the initial numbers, there are currently 8 parked 744s. These 744s are the only aircraft out of the 3 (A346, A380, 744) that are anywhere in LH's schedule still (BOM/IAD/YYZ starting August 1). I've heard that back in March LH planned to phase out another 2-3 aircraft (bringing the total to 5-6 744s). Based off that number, and given that LH ordered exactly 5 787s today, I think that conclusion is spot on.

The question is, what would they even do with 3 787s in the winter? I'd assume they'd need to first go through training and then likely be deployed on one route (one outbound, one inbound, one spare)....?

I've been considering (for a few weeks now) a trip on IAD-FRA this winter on the 744...I hope it's not too late... :cry:


Here's my take:

Lufthansa Group had already made the decision that the B789 was going to be their A343 replacement back when they ordered 25 (with options for 20 more) before the pandemic. However, I think Lufthansa is taking these 5 recently-added B789's early to take advantage of current demand lull, which will allow them to establish training and MRO programs for the a new type (to LH).

As for LH's B744 fleet, the 8 remaining are currently in short-term storage and may, or may not return to service. The same goes for their A388 fleet where 8 are in storage in Germany and France and the remaining 6 have been retired to long-term storage in Spain.


Looks like what I heard back in March was correct, Spohr announced that 3 747s have been sold (this would be different from the previous 5 that retired to MHV), leaving 5 744s in LH's fleet. This definitely looks like FLALEFTY was correct in their analysis.
https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 1031662595

Given this news and based on the fact that they knew that the 787 top-up order was imminent, this lends hope to the possibility of the 5 744s coming back temporarily, while things look relatively bleak for the A340.
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 6:09 pm

Terrible times for aviation enthusiasts. Just a few years ago Lufthansa operated around 80 widebodies with four engines.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 6:18 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:

That would line up with LH's comments stating that some would arrive in winter and the rest would arrive in early 2022. LH claims that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft. However, as a2b7 pointed out, there is a possibility that "in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets." Looking at the initial numbers, there are currently 8 parked 744s. These 744s are the only aircraft out of the 3 (A346, A380, 744) that are anywhere in LH's schedule still (BOM/IAD/YYZ starting August 1). I've heard that back in March LH planned to phase out another 2-3 aircraft (bringing the total to 5-6 744s). Based off that number, and given that LH ordered exactly 5 787s today, I think that conclusion is spot on.

The question is, what would they even do with 3 787s in the winter? I'd assume they'd need to first go through training and then likely be deployed on one route (one outbound, one inbound, one spare)....?

I've been considering (for a few weeks now) a trip on IAD-FRA this winter on the 744...I hope it's not too late... :cry:


Here's my take:

Lufthansa Group had already made the decision that the B789 was going to be their A343 replacement back when they ordered 25 (with options for 20 more) before the pandemic. However, I think Lufthansa is taking these 5 recently-added B789's early to take advantage of current demand lull, which will allow them to establish training and MRO programs for the a new type (to LH).

As for LH's B744 fleet, the 8 remaining are currently in short-term storage and may, or may not return to service. The same goes for their A388 fleet where 8 are in storage in Germany and France and the remaining 6 have been retired to long-term storage in Spain.


Looks like what I heard back in March was correct, Spohr announced that 3 747s have been sold (this would be different from the previous 5 that retired to MHV), leaving 5 744s in LH's fleet. This definitely looks like FLALEFTY was correct in their analysis.
https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 1031662595

Given this news and based on the fact that they knew that the 787 top-up order was imminent, this lends hope to the possibility of the 5 744s coming back temporarily, while things look relatively bleak for the A340.


Just want to point out that LH Technik has long supported/service the 787 though, so LH doesn’t have to set up a MRO program.
 
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Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 6:26 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:

That would line up with LH's comments stating that some would arrive in winter and the rest would arrive in early 2022. LH claims that these aircraft will be used to replace A340 aircraft. However, as a2b7 pointed out, there is a possibility that "in the short term, the 5 B787-9 are acquired to reduce the need to reactivate the A340-600, B747-400 and A380 fleets." Looking at the initial numbers, there are currently 8 parked 744s. These 744s are the only aircraft out of the 3 (A346, A380, 744) that are anywhere in LH's schedule still (BOM/IAD/YYZ starting August 1). I've heard that back in March LH planned to phase out another 2-3 aircraft (bringing the total to 5-6 744s). Based off that number, and given that LH ordered exactly 5 787s today, I think that conclusion is spot on.

The question is, what would they even do with 3 787s in the winter? I'd assume they'd need to first go through training and then likely be deployed on one route (one outbound, one inbound, one spare)....?

I've been considering (for a few weeks now) a trip on IAD-FRA this winter on the 744...I hope it's not too late... :cry:


Here's my take:

Lufthansa Group had already made the decision that the B789 was going to be their A343 replacement back when they ordered 25 (with options for 20 more) before the pandemic. However, I think Lufthansa is taking these 5 recently-added B789's early to take advantage of current demand lull, which will allow them to establish training and MRO programs for the a new type (to LH).

As for LH's B744 fleet, the 8 remaining are currently in short-term storage and may, or may not return to service. The same goes for their A388 fleet where 8 are in storage in Germany and France and the remaining 6 have been retired to long-term storage in Spain.


Looks like what I heard back in March was correct, Spohr announced that 3 747s have been sold (this would be different from the previous 5 that retired to MHV), leaving 5 744s in LH's fleet. This definitely looks like FLALEFTY was correct in their analysis.
https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 1031662595

Given this news and based on the fact that they knew that the 787 top-up order was imminent, this lends hope to the possibility of the 5 744s coming back temporarily, while things look relatively bleak for the A340.


LX and Edelweiss are still flying the A340, as for LHs A340s, enthusiasts still have a few more months to fly on one. It's bleak but every airplanes time is up eventually. I highly doubt they will reactivate 5 744s temporarily but stranger things have happened and who knows, it's just my opinion
 
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SANFan
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Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

Re: LH ordering 5 more A350s and 5 more 787-9

Tue May 04, 2021 6:38 pm

Yahnih wrote:
Yay SAN will either get an A350 or 787 coming it’s way :)

That would be wonderful to see! Hope you're right!

bb

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