Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:22 am

astuteman wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
astuteman wrote:

They have already claimed a weight reduction, and complexity reduction

https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/a ... 41.article


Rgds

Will they back port all the advances also to the "normal NEO"? It wouldn't be the first time.


I can see no logical reason why they wouldn't back-port these lift devices onto all A321's.
Better lift, especially in stage 2 climb, simpler mechanism, lighter assembly, standardisation across the A321 range.
What's not to like?
It has been Airbus practice before, and I expect it in this case as well

Rgds




What I've been looking for for some time, A321XLR wing progress from Broughton (June 8th).

BROUGHTON | The first #A321XLR wing box has successfully been taken out of its assembly jig ready for the next stage of production.


Image
https://twitter.com/AirbusintheUK/statu ... 39/photo/1

While many parts are beefed up, the major modification would be the inner wing with the lighter simplified single flap system.

I probably will become standard for the A321 family, but for the A320 I have my doubts. It would be a 101t MTOW (+?) wing for a 79t aircraft..
 
pugman211
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:03 pm

keesje wrote:
astuteman wrote:

While many parts are beefed up, the major modification would be the inner wing with the lighter simplified single flap system.

I probably will become standard for the A321 family, but for the A320 I have my doubts. It would be a 101t MTOW (+?) wing for a 79t aircraft..


The only beefed up parts I can see on the basic wing box so far is possibly bigger titanium plates where the flap track beams locate onto the bottom skin aft edges.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:45 pm

LDRA wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I wonder about the center of gravity implications of this new tank concept. I guess it will be burned off first, does anyone know the fuel schedule?

It is possible that one of the reasons for new flaps is to move center of lift rearward in flaps extended configuration, especially at higher angle of attack


My guess is they aim for Center of Lift control over the full flight regime.

... and that would be worth backporting to the A320.
I'd expect some beefiness adaptions for the lesser loads on the A320.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14179
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:23 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Will they back port all the advances also to the "normal NEO"? It wouldn't be the first time.

Based on history, it'd be shocking if they don't.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12217
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Will they back port all the advances also to the "normal NEO"? It wouldn't be the first time.

Based on history, it'd be shocking if they don't.

A321 probably. It depends on whether it is worth it and really needed on the A320.

It is important to remember all this talk about about reduced weight and complexity is relative to the A321’s inboard double slotted flaps, not the A320’s flap system. From the article it also sounds like the outboard flaps of the XLR will still be double slotted, but that could be a misinterpretation.
 
tomcat
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:11 pm

keesje wrote:



What I've been looking for for some time, A321XLR wing progress from Broughton (June 8th).

BROUGHTON | The first #A321XLR wing box has successfully been taken out of its assembly jig ready for the next stage of production.


Image
https://twitter.com/AirbusintheUK/statu ... 39/photo/1

While many parts are beefed up, the major modification would be the inner wing with the lighter simplified single flap system.



Interesting to see this stiffener on the lower skin, located between the fifth and the sixth holes starting from the wingtip and oriented streamwise. Its position would place it exactly between the outboard flap and the aileron. There is no such a stiffener on the current A321:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Planform_Airbus_A321-200_British_Airways_%28G-EUXK%29_dep_London_Heathrow_8June2008_arp.jpg
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 14179
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm

Polot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Will they back port all the advances also to the "normal NEO"? It wouldn't be the first time.

Based on history, it'd be shocking if they don't.

A321 probably. It depends on whether it is worth it and really needed on the A320.

Indeed, meant that solely in the context of the A321N.

Personally figure they'll go with an all-new wing, before modifying the A320 to anything resembling what the current A321 structure is.
 
pugman211
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:38 pm

tomcat wrote:
keesje wrote:



What I've been looking for for some time, A321XLR wing progress from Broughton (June 8th).

BROUGHTON | The first #A321XLR wing box has successfully been taken out of its assembly jig ready for the next stage of production.


Image
https://twitter.com/AirbusintheUK/statu ... 39/photo/1

While many parts are beefed up, the major modification would be the inner wing with the lighter simplified single flap system.



Interesting to see this stiffener on the lower skin, located between the fifth and the sixth holes starting from the wingtip and oriented streamwise. Its position would place it exactly between the outboard flap and the aileron. There is no such a stiffener on the current A321:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Planform_Airbus_A321-200_British_Airways_%28G-EUXK%29_dep_London_Heathrow_8June2008_arp.jpg


That's not a stiffener, but a rain/wind deflector, pretty much the same you see above the cabin doors on all aircraft. It is on every single A320 family wing.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4510
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:41 pm

This probably has been brought up somewhere but do we know the actual range of this? not published but more realistic range, full of people, bags, fuel, factoring in diversion airport, etc
 
tomcat
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:49 pm

pugman211 wrote:
tomcat wrote:
keesje wrote:



What I've been looking for for some time, A321XLR wing progress from Broughton (June 8th).



Image
https://twitter.com/AirbusintheUK/statu ... 39/photo/1

While many parts are beefed up, the major modification would be the inner wing with the lighter simplified single flap system.



Interesting to see this stiffener on the lower skin, located between the fifth and the sixth holes starting from the wingtip and oriented streamwise. Its position would place it exactly between the outboard flap and the aileron. There is no such a stiffener on the current A321:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Planform_Airbus_A321-200_British_Airways_%28G-EUXK%29_dep_London_Heathrow_8June2008_arp.jpg


That's not a stiffener, but a rain/wind deflector, pretty much the same you see above the cabin doors on all aircraft. It is on every single A320 family wing.


Thanks for correcting me, that's interesting. Looking for more detailed pictures, I've found one where this deflector is barely visible:
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/loei-thailand-september-282017-airasia-flight-728659651
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:01 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
This probably has been brought up somewhere but do we know the actual range of this? not published but more realistic range, full of people, bags, fuel, factoring in diversion airport, etc


I think realistic range is based on specific realities such a payloads, diversion options, headwinds, etc. I think 4000 NM "typical"range proved problematic for 757s, during winter headwinds from Germany to US east coast. The XLR would de-risk those routes, as a more credible Trans Atlantic narrow body.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:02 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
This probably has been brought up somewhere but do we know the actual range of this? not published but more realistic range, full of people, bags, fuel, factoring in diversion airport, etc

Apparently Leeham has an estimate from our fiend Ferpe but it's still behind a paywall ( https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/27/the-r ... s-a321xlr/ ). Without a subscription all you can read is that 4,700 nm comes from using short range configuration rules, which makes little sense since most of these won't be flying in short range configuration. IIRC the numbers are also relying on a PIP for the GTF engine. No idea what the real world numbers will end up being.
 
sagechan
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:24 pm

keesje wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
This probably has been brought up somewhere but do we know the actual range of this? not published but more realistic range, full of people, bags, fuel, factoring in diversion airport, etc


I think realistic range is based on specific realities such a payloads, diversion options, headwinds, etc. I think 4000 NM "typical"range proved problematic for 757s, during winter headwinds from Germany to US east coast. The XLR would de-risk those routes, as a more credible Trans Atlantic narrow body.


Considering all the variables not sure there is a real answer to this, but all indications point to at least a minimum of 1 hour additional flight time over the 752 with equivalent passengers and likely more.
 
User avatar
DLHAM
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
This probably has been brought up somewhere but do we know the actual range of this? not published but more realistic range, full of people, bags, fuel, factoring in diversion airport, etc

Apparently Leeham has an estimate from our fiend Ferpe but it's still behind a paywall ( https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/27/the-r ... s-a321xlr/ ). Without a subscription all you can read is that 4,700 nm comes from using short range configuration rules, which makes little sense since most of these won't be flying in short range configuration. IIRC the numbers are also relying on a PIP for the GTF engine. No idea what the real world numbers will end up being.


If you ask me real world numbers will be approximately what they promised with the A321LR: 7400km/4000nm.
 
HugoJunkers
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:05 pm

keesje wrote:
Article about the safety concerns raised by Boeing on the vunerability of the new rear tank for outside fire.

Image
https://kaplanianreport.com/

The more skilled people that take a look at new aircraft design, the higher the chances faults are found and corrected in time.


I don't think this diagram represent the rear centre tanks actual position. It should be far more forward and near the wing box and most if not all of it encased by the wing box cover.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:46 pm

HugoJunkers wrote:
keesje wrote:
Article about the safety concerns raised by Boeing on the vunerability of the new rear tank for outside fire.

Image
https://kaplanianreport.com/

The more skilled people that take a look at new aircraft design, the higher the chances faults are found and corrected in time.


I don't think this diagram represent the rear centre tanks actual position. It should be far more forward and near the wing box and most if not all of it encased by the wing box cover.

IMU no room there.
Where do you store the MLG?
it is attached to the rear of the wingbox and folds into the space just behind the center wing box.

space take may be less extreme than on the 737 where the wheels nearly touch in the center.
but still. ..
 
HugoJunkers
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:00 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
This probably has been brought up somewhere but do we know the actual range of this? not published but more realistic range, full of people, bags, fuel, factoring in diversion airport, etc

Apparently Leeham has an estimate from our fiend Ferpe but it's still behind a paywall ( https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/27/the-r ... s-a321xlr/ ). Without a subscription all you can read is that 4,700 nm comes from using short range configuration rules, which makes little sense since most of these won't be flying in short range configuration. IIRC the numbers are also relying on a PIP for the GTF engine. No idea what the real world numbers will end up being.


If you ask me real world numbers will be approximately what they promised with the A321LR: 7400km/4000nm.


If the A321XLR is crammed with 240 passengers in economy at the exit limit it won't make 4700nm. If in 3 class layout and 165 passengers to 180 passengers it will handsomely exceed 4700nm.

The seat pitch and density you use for a 25 minute flight from Dublin to London is going to be different from a 8 hour flight from Boston to Prague or 9 hours New York to Budapest. People will demand and pay for the extra seat space and for these long flights 165-18

Of course many airlines will cram in 220 passengers and use it to get say 3300nm and be pleased by the extra range, cargo the A321XLR will offer.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22919
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:46 pm

HugoJunkers wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Apparently Leeham has an estimate from our fiend Ferpe but it's still behind a paywall ( https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/27/the-r ... s-a321xlr/ ). Without a subscription all you can read is that 4,700 nm comes from using short range configuration rules, which makes little sense since most of these won't be flying in short range configuration. IIRC the numbers are also relying on a PIP for the GTF engine. No idea what the real world numbers will end up being.


If you ask me real world numbers will be approximately what they promised with the A321LR: 7400km/4000nm.


If the A321XLR is crammed with 240 passengers in economy at the exit limit it won't make 4700nm. If in 3 class layout and 165 passengers to 180 passengers it will handsomely exceed 4700nm.

The seat pitch and density you use for a 25 minute flight from Dublin to London is going to be different from a 8 hour flight from Boston to Prague or 9 hours New York to Budapest. People will demand and pay for the extra seat space and for these long flights 165-18

Of course many airlines will cram in 220 passengers and use it to get say 3300nm and be pleased by the extra range, cargo the A321XLR will offer.

The flexibility sums it up. I expect ULCCs to heavily buy the A321xLR, but for much shorter missions.

For airlines like JetBlue, Indigo, and eventually Easyjet, and Wizz this will allow longer flights without the expense of a vastly different subfleet. For many airlines, this allows them to compete against widebodies without the expense of a new type.

Lightsaber
 
Noshow
Posts: 2708
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:26 am

IIRC the LR has up to three container tanks in the belly. The XLR gets a bigger fuselage tank behind the wing, a wet wing box and an optional container tank up front. Finally a trade off between passengers, cargo and fuel must be made like on every aircraft.
 
User avatar
AECM
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:41 am

The A321LR has the following tanks and usable fuel according to EASA TCDS / Airbus:

WING: 15380 liters
CENTER: 8200 liters
ACT: 3121 liters with the LR having x 3 = 9363 liters

TOTAL: 32943 liters

The XLR will be fitted with a permanent Rear Centre Tank (carrying 12900 liters of fuel) and an optional forward Additional Centre Tank. Just the Rear Centre Tank alone has more fuel than the 3 x ACT of the LR (12900 liters vs 9363 liters) so the standard XLR should be capable of carrying 3537 liters more fuel than the LR. Basically the XLR can carry ~1,31 extra ACT in a more compact package and with greater MTOW. And if the forward Additional Centre Tank is added, (should be a standard ACT), then the figures should rise another 3121 liters.

Standard XLR > 15380 + 8200 + 12900 = 36480 liters
XLR with Centre Tank > 15380 + 8200 + 12900 + 3121 = 39601 liters
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22919
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:17 am

Please post a source with factual data as per the forum rules. We often have threads argue over A vs. B when the actual parameters are just a little different that effect real world performance.

When a post must be deleted, all posts that reference that post are deleted.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:10 pm

I remember playing around with single class economy plus configurations for Atlantic. 20+ yrs ago, had even some serious engineers & network folks have a look, Boeing send me a lopa. Maybe the A321XLR will provide some new opportunity for such a concept. One step up from cattle, but no business class. For 6-9 hour flights, maybe 125-150 seats so still reasonable numbers & low unit cost. Revisited the concept a few years ago DecentSeat Airways"" :biggrin:

Image
viewtopic.php?t=1357749
 
HugoJunkers
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:47 am

WIederling wrote:
HugoJunkers wrote:
keesje wrote:
Article about the safety concerns raised by Boeing on the vunerability of the new rear tank for outside fire.

Image
https://kaplanianreport.com/

The more skilled people that take a look at new aircraft design, the higher the chances faults are found and corrected in time.


I don't think this diagram represent the rear centre tanks actual position. It should be far more forward and near the wing box and most if not all of it encased by the wing box cover.

IMU no room there.
Where do you store the MLG?
it is attached to the rear of the wingbox and folds into the space just behind the center wing box.

space take may be less extreme than on the 737 where the wheels nearly touch in the center.
but still. ..


Pictures of the RCT "Rear Centre Tank" being delivered from its maker "Premium Aerotech" show it clearly has external flanged ribs that would be transverse to the airflow. It has to be encased by something and it can only be either the wing box cover or an extended wing box cover.

https://www.premium-aerotec.com/fileadmin/user_upload/data/fce/2021_05_04_Press_Release_-_First_Delivery_RCT_EN.pdf.jpg
[photoid]https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/First-delivery-RCT-A321xlr-1.jpg [/photoid]
 
tomcat
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:16 am

HugoJunkers wrote:
WIederling wrote:
HugoJunkers wrote:

I don't think this diagram represent the rear centre tanks actual position. It should be far more forward and near the wing box and most if not all of it encased by the wing box cover.

IMU no room there.
Where do you store the MLG?
it is attached to the rear of the wingbox and folds into the space just behind the center wing box.

space take may be less extreme than on the 737 where the wheels nearly touch in the center.
but still. ..


Pictures of the RCT "Rear Centre Tank" being delivered from its maker "Premium Aerotech" show it clearly has external flanged ribs that would be transverse to the airflow. It has to be encased by something and it can only be either the wing box cover or an extended wing box cover.

https://www.premium-aerotec.com/fileadmin/user_upload/data/fce/2021_05_04_Press_Release_-_First_Delivery_RCT_EN.pdf.jpg
[photoid]https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/First-delivery-RCT-A321xlr-1.jpg [/photoid]


This picture from Premium-Aerotec shows the part of the RCT fitted in the section 17.

Forward of the section 17 comes the section 15. Here is a picture of the section 15 (not XLR), seen from its aft end. The forward end of the RCT will be located in the aft part of the Section 15. Forward of the RCT, there is the main landing gear bay and finally the center wing box. The RCT is obviously not adjacent to the center wing box. The front boundary of the RCT will be located aft of the main landing gear bay.

https://www.rgifrance.fr/fr/actualites/mise-en-service-de-la-machine-d%E2%80%99al%C3%A9sage-keel-beam-poste-15-80
 
HugoJunkers
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:23 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:33 pm

tomcat wrote:
HugoJunkers wrote:
WIederling wrote:
IMU no room there.
Where do you store the MLG?
it is attached to the rear of the wingbox and folds into the space just behind the center wing box.

space take may be less extreme than on the 737 where the wheels nearly touch in the center.
but still. ..


Pictures of the RCT "Rear Centre Tank" being delivered from its maker "Premium Aerotech" show it clearly has external flanged ribs that would be transverse to the airflow. It has to be encased by something and it can only be either the wing box cover or an extended wing box cover.

https://www.premium-aerotec.com/fileadmin/user_upload/data/fce/2021_05_04_Press_Release_-_First_Delivery_RCT_EN.pdf.jpg
[photoid]https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/First-delivery-RCT-A321xlr-1.jpg [/photoid]


This picture from Premium-Aerotec shows the part of the RCT fitted in the section 17.

Forward of the section 17 comes the section 15. Here is a picture of the section 15 (not XLR), seen from its aft end. The forward end of the RCT will be located in the aft part of the Section 15. Forward of the RCT, there is the main landing gear bay and finally the center wing box. The RCT is obviously not adjacent to the center wing box. The front boundary of the RCT will be located aft of the main landing gear bay.

https://www.rgifrance.fr/fr/actualites/mise-en-service-de-la-machine-d%E2%80%99al%C3%A9sage-keel-beam-poste-15-80


As far as I can see the rear of the RCT will be within the boundary of the wing box fairing?
 
tomcat
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:03 pm

HugoJunkers wrote:
tomcat wrote:
HugoJunkers wrote:

Pictures of the RCT "Rear Centre Tank" being delivered from its maker "Premium Aerotech" show it clearly has external flanged ribs that would be transverse to the airflow. It has to be encased by something and it can only be either the wing box cover or an extended wing box cover.

https://www.premium-aerotec.com/fileadmin/user_upload/data/fce/2021_05_04_Press_Release_-_First_Delivery_RCT_EN.pdf.jpg
[photoid]https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/First-delivery-RCT-A321xlr-1.jpg [/photoid]


This picture from Premium-Aerotec shows the part of the RCT fitted in the section 17.

Forward of the section 17 comes the section 15. Here is a picture of the section 15 (not XLR), seen from its aft end. The forward end of the RCT will be located in the aft part of the Section 15. Forward of the RCT, there is the main landing gear bay and finally the center wing box. The RCT is obviously not adjacent to the center wing box. The front boundary of the RCT will be located aft of the main landing gear bay.

https://www.rgifrance.fr/fr/actualites/mise-en-service-de-la-machine-d%E2%80%99al%C3%A9sage-keel-beam-poste-15-80


As far as I can see the rear of the RCT will be within the boundary of the wing box fairing?


The RCT seems to extend slightly beyond the belly fairing. Based on this picture, the narrower part of the RTC seems to be located as far aft as the door 3:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2021/05/Airbus-starts-the-structural-assembly-of-its-1st-A321XLR.html

Image
Airbus.com

And looking at the following picture, the door 3 is located aft of the belly fairing in the new ACF configuration:
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9525839
 
EduardoL
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:11 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:44 am

Will it be one PW and the other CFM as in the other prototypes (A320neo/A321neo), or will it be the two prototypes of XLRs with the same engine?
 
astuteman
Posts: 7439
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:02 am

tomcat wrote:
HugoJunkers wrote:
tomcat wrote:

This picture from Premium-Aerotec shows the part of the RCT fitted in the section 17.

Forward of the section 17 comes the section 15. Here is a picture of the section 15 (not XLR), seen from its aft end. The forward end of the RCT will be located in the aft part of the Section 15. Forward of the RCT, there is the main landing gear bay and finally the center wing box. The RCT is obviously not adjacent to the center wing box. The front boundary of the RCT will be located aft of the main landing gear bay.

https://www.rgifrance.fr/fr/actualites/mise-en-service-de-la-machine-d%E2%80%99al%C3%A9sage-keel-beam-poste-15-80


As far as I can see the rear of the RCT will be within the boundary of the wing box fairing?


The RCT seems to extend slightly beyond the belly fairing. Based on this picture, the narrower part of the RTC seems to be located as far aft as the door 3:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2021/05/Airbus-starts-the-structural-assembly-of-its-1st-A321XLR.html

Image
Airbus.com

And looking at the following picture, the door 3 is located aft of the belly fairing in the new ACF configuration:
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9525839

I'm pretty sure that all those stiffeners external to the fuselage will all sit within the belly fairing, unless they are a really fancy "laminar flow" device whose principle is hidden to all of us .. :)

Rgds
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:00 am

EduardoL wrote:
Will it be one PW and the other CFM as in the other prototypes (A320neo/A321neo), or will it be the two prototypes of XLRs with the same engine?


Usually both aircraft types / engines are tested & certified. The XLR's are offered with current versions (33k lbs) of the Leaps and PW1100s. Many are waiting for 35k lbs+ versions..

I guess both PW and CFM want to avoid being the one not offering that power rate/ performance improvement. But it has been quiet for a while on that front..

https://mentourpilot.com/airbus-a321xlr ... er-needed/
 
tomcat
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:26 pm

astuteman wrote:
tomcat wrote:
HugoJunkers wrote:

As far as I can see the rear of the RCT will be within the boundary of the wing box fairing?


The RCT seems to extend slightly beyond the belly fairing. Based on this picture, the narrower part of the RTC seems to be located as far aft as the door 3:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en/2021/05/Airbus-starts-the-structural-assembly-of-its-1st-A321XLR.html

Image
Airbus.com

And looking at the following picture, the door 3 is located aft of the belly fairing in the new ACF configuration:
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9525839

I'm pretty sure that all those stiffeners external to the fuselage will all sit within the belly fairing, unless they are a really fancy "laminar flow" device whose principle is hidden to all of us .. :)

Rgds


That's obvious, thank you. My answer was rather based on the following assessment, which is somewhat precarious I agree:

1) The RCT extends up to the aft most frame assembled on this section as we can see on the picture I included in my previous post.

2) Looking at the following picture, it seems that the rivet line of this aft most frame is located well beyond the last external stiffener:
Image
source: https://simpleflying.com/first-a321xlr-rct/

3) The fact that the aft most portion of this section only has the lower lobe skin makes me think that this aft most portion will receive the door 3 above this lower lobe. It would match the split of the skin panels we can derive from the following picture:
Image
source: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... ition.html
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12217
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:34 pm

Not sure why there is much debate about the wing to body fairing. Seems pretty obvious to me based on the paint/coating on the fuselage what is expected to be covered by a fairing and what will be exposed and have another layer of paint over it.

Note the wing to body fairing and wing box are two completely different things though. Just because a tank is still in the boundary of a fairing doesn’t mean it is being covered by the top of the wing box.
 
tomcat
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:06 pm

Polot wrote:
Not sure why there is much debate about the wing to body fairing. Seems pretty obvious to me based on the paint/coating on the fuselage what is expected to be covered by a fairing and what will be exposed and have another layer of paint over it.


Not really debating, just trying to answer a question. Does the RCT extend further aft than the fairing or not? The different coating schemes visible on the fuselage (or is it a spot light effect?) can tell the footprint of the fairing but don't say anything about the limits of the RCT.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12217
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:17 pm

tomcat wrote:
Polot wrote:
Not sure why there is much debate about the wing to body fairing. Seems pretty obvious to me based on the paint/coating on the fuselage what is expected to be covered by a fairing and what will be exposed and have another layer of paint over it.


Not really debating, just trying to answer a question. Does the RCT extend further aft than the fairing or not? The different coating schemes visible on the fuselage (or is it a spot light effect?) can tell the footprint of the fairing but don't say anything about the limits of the RCT.

It’s definitely not a spotlight effect. You can see in one of your earlier photos that the fuselage has green primer on while the part that will covered by the fairing is white.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:16 pm

Image
https://www.airway1.com/airbus-receives ... m-a321xlr/

Airbus received three of the six sections that are part of the front fuselage of the A321XLR, the longest-range variant of the single-aisle jet family.
...
According to Stelia, the A321XLR required modifications in all sections regarding equipment structure and support.


Enforces my impression the XLR has commonality with the NEO's than just the fuel & flap systems.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:27 pm

New article on XLR testing progress:

https://www.aerospacetestinginternation ... 21xlr.html
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14616
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:16 pm

New XLR assemblies arriving at the FAL.

Image

Image

https://www.pilootenvliegtuig.nl/2021/0 ... 321neoxlr/
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:23 pm

Illustration of the placement of the RCT relative to the aft and rear fuselage sections may clarify some issues raised earlier in this thread and its predecessors.
 
User avatar
DLHAM
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:33 pm

Seems to sit right between the end of the wings/mlg bay and Door 3.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:38 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Seems to sit right between the end of the wings/mlg bay and Door 3.

Yes, and the 'jagged little edge' under door 3 seems to mate with the 'extension' at the aft end of the RCT seen in earlier photos.

These are some fanciful terms I am making up because I am not a mechanical engineer so I don't know proper names for them.

No offense is meant, hopefully none will be taken.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Seems to sit right between the end of the wings/mlg bay and Door 3.

Yes, and the 'jagged little edge' under door 3 seems to mate with the 'extension' at the aft end of the RCT seen in earlier photos.

These are some fanciful terms I am making up because I am not a mechanical engineer so I don't know proper names for them.

No offense is meant, hopefully none will be taken.


I don't know the correct names either, but I clearly understood your statement, the sense fits and that's what counts !
In my branch it often happens that the young sales manager comes to me and asks: what is part "XXX" and why is it called that?
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3921
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:40 pm

keesje wrote:
I remember playing around with single class economy plus configurations for Atlantic. 20+ yrs ago, had even some serious engineers & network folks have a look, Boeing send me a lopa. Maybe the A321XLR will provide some new opportunity for such a concept. One step up from cattle, but no business class. For 6-9 hour flights, maybe 125-150 seats so still reasonable numbers & low unit cost. Revisited the concept a few years ago DecentSeat Airways"" :biggrin:

Image
viewtopic.php?t=1357749


Or an airline might desire something like 6-9 hour flights in a high-density configuration...like BOS-BUR or ONT, EWR-BUR or ONT or BUR-ONT to HNL/KOA/OGG in an F9 Y240 configuration, or even BOM-LGW (3900 nmi) in a 6E Y222 configuration without a fuel stop and STN/LTN as filed alternates (both carriers have the A321XLR on order). F9 currently cannot do transcon, but the A321XLR could open up trans-con.

Another question: is Airbus planning on offering 35,000-lb thrust P&W engines on the A321XLR? (P&W has developed such an engine.)
 
RoyalBrunei757
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:18 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:33 am

Someone has asked this before, just to put it as record, the first A321XLR MSN is 11000.

More information on the coming together of different parts are here: https://www.stelia-aerospace.com/en/ste ... rochefort/

It seems the A321XLR assembly is much complicated compared to usual A320 family. The front part involved many different panels coming together rather than one single barrel.
 
Eiszeit
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:50 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:46 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Someone has asked this before, just to put it as record, the first A321XLR MSN is 11000.

More information on the coming together of different parts are here: https://www.stelia-aerospace.com/en/ste ... rochefort/

It seems the A321XLR assembly is much complicated compared to usual A320 family. The front part involved many different panels coming together rather than one single barrel.


That is how the front of each A320 plane is built. For final assembly these prebuilt sections (barrels) that come from all over Europe are shipped to one of the FALs and then put together,
 
JohanTally
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:07 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
keesje wrote:
I remember playing around with single class economy plus configurations for Atlantic. 20+ yrs ago, had even some serious engineers & network folks have a look, Boeing send me a lopa. Maybe the A321XLR will provide some new opportunity for such a concept. One step up from cattle, but no business class. For 6-9 hour flights, maybe 125-150 seats so still reasonable numbers & low unit cost. Revisited the concept a few years ago DecentSeat Airways"" :biggrin:

Image
viewtopic.php?t=1357749


Or an airline might desire something like 6-9 hour flights in a high-density configuration...like BOS-BUR or ONT, EWR-BUR or ONT or BUR-ONT to HNL/KOA/OGG in an F9 Y240 configuration, or even BOM-LGW (3900 nmi) in a 6E Y222 configuration without a fuel stop and STN/LTN as filed alternates (both carriers have the A321XLR on order). F9 currently cannot do transcon, but the A321XLR could open up trans-con.

Another question: is Airbus planning on offering 35,000-lb thrust P&W engines on the A321XLR? (P&W has developed such an engine.)

3900nmi fully loaded in a high density configuration seems unlikely. Pax weight with luggage would be between 60-70k lbs plus OEW wouldn't leave enough margin for the fuel required.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:42 am

JohanTally wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
keesje wrote:
I remember playing around with single class economy plus configurations for Atlantic. 20+ yrs ago, had even some serious engineers & network folks have a look, Boeing send me a lopa. Maybe the A321XLR will provide some new opportunity for such a concept. One step up from cattle, but no business class. For 6-9 hour flights, maybe 125-150 seats so still reasonable numbers & low unit cost. Revisited the concept a few years ago DecentSeat Airways"" :biggrin:

Image
viewtopic.php?t=1357749


Or an airline might desire something like 6-9 hour flights in a high-density configuration...like BOS-BUR or ONT, EWR-BUR or ONT or BUR-ONT to HNL/KOA/OGG in an F9 Y240 configuration, or even BOM-LGW (3900 nmi) in a 6E Y222 configuration without a fuel stop and STN/LTN as filed alternates (both carriers have the A321XLR on order). F9 currently cannot do transcon, but the A321XLR could open up trans-con.

Another question: is Airbus planning on offering 35,000-lb thrust P&W engines on the A321XLR? (P&W has developed such an engine.)

3900nmi fully loaded in a high density configuration seems unlikely. Pax weight with luggage would be between 60-70k lbs plus OEW wouldn't leave enough margin for the fuel required.


132Kg/Pax seems a bit much, just as 60-70k is a bit much for an aircraft with 56,200 lbs max payload. At 52t OEW that would leave weight and volume for almost 30k litres @0.785kg/l.

But yeah, that won´t do it for 3900nm by a couple of 100nm.

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
Grizzly410
Posts: 535
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:39 am

Eiszeit wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Someone has asked this before, just to put it as record, the first A321XLR MSN is 11000.

More information on the coming together of different parts are here: https://www.stelia-aerospace.com/en/ste ... rochefort/

It seems the A321XLR assembly is much complicated compared to usual A320 family. The front part involved many different panels coming together rather than one single barrel.


That is how the front of each A320 plane is built. For final assembly these prebuilt sections (barrels) that come from all over Europe are shipped to one of the FALs and then put together,


It's very likely a photo from Saint Nazaire pre-FAL plant. They'll join the panels to make barrels, then the barrels together before starting the system installation.
 
JohanTally
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

Or an airline might desire something like 6-9 hour flights in a high-density configuration...like BOS-BUR or ONT, EWR-BUR or ONT or BUR-ONT to HNL/KOA/OGG in an F9 Y240 configuration, or even BOM-LGW (3900 nmi) in a 6E Y222 configuration without a fuel stop and STN/LTN as filed alternates (both carriers have the A321XLR on order). F9 currently cannot do transcon, but the A321XLR could open up trans-con.

Another question: is Airbus planning on offering 35,000-lb thrust P&W engines on the A321XLR? (P&W has developed such an engine.)

3900nmi fully loaded in a high density configuration seems unlikely. Pax weight with luggage would be between 60-70k lbs plus OEW wouldn't leave enough margin for the fuel required.


132Kg/Pax seems a bit much, just as 60-70k is a bit much for an aircraft with 56,200 lbs max payload. At 52t OEW that would leave weight and volume for almost 30k litres @0.785kg/l.

But yeah, that won´t do it for 3900nm by a couple of 100nm.

best regards
Thomas

The FAA just increased the standard passenger weights in the US so just pax weight would be over 43k. Obviously this is a different market but typically international flights have higher bag counts and often times heavier luggage. That max payload would approach pretty quickly. Not to mention westbound flights would be fighting headwinds for 8 hours. XLR in high density is probably better suited for 3500nmi
 
astuteman
Posts: 7439
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:57 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Someone has asked this before, just to put it as record, the first A321XLR MSN is 11000.

More information on the coming together of different parts are here: https://www.stelia-aerospace.com/en/ste ... rochefort/

It seems the A321XLR assembly is much complicated compared to usual A320 family. The front part involved many different panels coming together rather than one single barrel.


That is how the front of each A320 plane is built. For final assembly these prebuilt sections (barrels) that come from all over Europe are shipped to one of the FALs and then put together,


It's very likely a photo from Saint Nazaire pre-FAL plant. They'll join the panels to make barrels, then the barrels together before starting the system installation.


Just like the A350 eh? Except in Al rather than CFRP :)

I understand that there is a fair amount of pre-stuffing to the barrels (made from panels) prior to arrival at the FAL (for the A321)

Rgds
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 22919
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:57 pm

JohanTally wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
3900nmi fully loaded in a high density configuration seems unlikely. Pax weight with luggage would be between 60-70k lbs plus OEW wouldn't leave enough margin for the fuel required.


132Kg/Pax seems a bit much, just as 60-70k is a bit much for an aircraft with 56,200 lbs max payload. At 52t OEW that would leave weight and volume for almost 30k litres @0.785kg/l.

But yeah, that won´t do it for 3900nm by a couple of 100nm.

best regards
Thomas

The FAA just increased the standard passenger weights in the US so just pax weight would be over 43k. Obviously this is a different market but typically international flights have higher bag counts and often times heavier luggage. That max payload would approach pretty quickly. Not to mention westbound flights would be fighting headwinds for 8 hours. XLR in high density is probably better suited for 3500nmi

Please post links.
Passenger+carry on 190lb summer, 195lb winter. (86 to 88.5 kg + bags which are weighed).

https://airinsight.com/the-pending-new- ... nce-rules/

Oh, I disagree with that article's conclusions on the substantial weight increase impacts due to the MAX and NEO being available for longer routes.

With bags, 105kg (231lb) is a good estimate, in my opinion. However, how many bags? That is only 16.5 kg of bags per passenger in the winter... Does anyone have a good link on bag weights, including estimates on no bags? The links I found weren't very good.

The A321xLR is a great aircraft for this weight estimate increase. It reduces empty weight in a high density configuration (no need for 2ACT in the LR).

This will still allow summertime TATL It will require an engine PiP for 3900nm in high density. Cest la vie.

Lightsaber
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26724
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This will still allow summertime TATL It will require an engine PiP for 3900nm in high density. Cest la vie.

Apparently PIP'd GTFs with more thrust will be available when the XLR has its EIS in 2023, but don't call it a PIP (lol!)

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/30/pratt ... or-airbus/

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos