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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 12:41 am

keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1, few BA A321 have no containers & you know it ;)


I thought that you’d enjoy the picture of a BA A321 being bulk loaded. :lol:

I suspect some A321XLR operators will bulk load to maximize cargo space. Using an A321 on routes that had previously been served by widebodies is a significant reduction in volume.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Sun May 09, 2021 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 12:50 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Solve what issues? The A321XLR will be the narrow body that flies more payload a longer distance than any other narrow body available today.
Yes, I here the clamor, The 757-300 does more payload, but only over a short distance. The academic discussion here if the A321XLR has 100 nm more range if equipped this or that way seems to me exactly that, academic. At full payload the A321XLR will be fuel limited and not do her advertised range and at max fuel the A321XLR has to reduce payload, what a failure. It is just, that quite a few long range frames have this astonishing failure too. :sarcastic:

The A321XLR seems to sell well, as all the other A321neo do, those combined are reaching the sales number of the whole 737MAX line up. I do not doubt that airlines will use the A321XLR to increase further point to point flying over distances, that up to now only wide bodies could do.

Apart from that I assume, that the A321XLR will be available equipped for container as well as equipped for bulk. I fail to understand, why airlines would want to bulk load, when container are available.


The issue is that the A321XLR isn’t as capable at flying cargo as other planes. Not a problem for most leisure airlines, but it is a factor for network airlines or cargo heady markets like Latin America.

The 737-10 will have more cargo volume than the A321. Being able to fly cargo beyond passenger bags can help make flights profitable. The A321XLR is less cargo volume than widebodies or the 737-10, so airlines may choose to bulk load to allow more cargo on board. Containers add weight and reduce useable volume.


When you want to compare the 737-10 to the A321 you should define what version you are talking about. But we can start and go through the posibilities.

The 737-10 will have a MTOW of about 90 t, the OEW is not know yet, but we should look at 737-8 numbers. MTOW 82 t, OEW 45 t, Max payload 21 t.
The OEW difference between a 737-800 and 737-900 is 41,413 - 37,648 kg = 3,765 kg. I would assume a similar difference between a 737-8 and 737-9. A 737-10 will be heavier than a 737-9. I assume that the difference between a 737-8 and 737-10 would be 5 t.

So we have for the 737-10 with one ATC (standard) a MTOW, of 90 t, OEW of 50 t and max payload about 24 t. Range 3300nm. cargo capacity 55,5 m3.
24 payload would leave 16 t for fuel. The weight of the fuel on a 737MAX is 22.282kg with 1 ACT. The 737-10 would be fuel limit to 16 t and could use the max payload for short trips only.

Let us take the standard A321neo with 3 ACT.

MTOW 97 t, OEW 50.1 t, max payload 25.5 t, max fuel (3ACT) 26.450 kg. Cargo volume 50.1 m3 The A321 would also be fuel limited. At max payload it would take 22.4 t of fuel. So the range, it could deliver its slightly higher max payload to, would be considerable more than the 737-10.

Yes the 737-10 would have a slightly larger cargo volume with one ACT against the A321 with three ACT, but remove 2 ACT from the A321neo and you have the space, slightly more payload and more fuel, 22.3 t with one ACT. The A321 is not longer fuel volume limited in that configuration.

Under no operational circumstance I would be able to see an advantage for the 737-10 in regards to cargo.

When we go to the next step, the A321XLR, we see an increase in MTOW to 101 t. The fuel capacity without an ACT 26.9 t.
We do not have an OEW, but the weight is supposed to match the A321neo with 3 ACT, that would mean 50,1 t. Let us say 50,5 t.
That would bring MTOW 101, OEW 50.5, fuel 26.9 t and payload could be 23.6 t. With max payload at 25.5 t, fuel could 25 t.
Cargo volume should be around 54 M3.
This frame matches the 757-200 in max payload over the shorter ranges and surpasses the 757-200 over the longer range..

This frame is still further removed in capabilities from the 737-10.


I’m having trouble following your post. According to the ACAP, the 737-10 has total lower lobe cargo volume of 1,961 CU FT (55.5 CU M). What A321XLR configuration has more cargo volume than that?

Ref 2-26 https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... X_RevE.pdf
 
JohanTally
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 3:39 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Weatherwatcher1, few BA A321 have no containers & you know it ;)


I thought that you’d enjoy the picture of a BA A321 being bulk loaded. :lol:

I suspect some A321XLR operators will bulk load to maximize cargo space. Using an A321 on routes that had previously been served by widebodies is a significant reduction in volume.

The largest A320 Series operator in the world strictly bulk loads all Airbus CEOs and NEOs. They also have 50 XLRs on order and I don't see them being loaded differently. Recently stations have started using an advanced beltloader system that makes bulk loading much more efficient and reduces strain on the body. Loading a can is faster than stacking in the bin but clearly operators will continue to bulk load.

https://youtu.be/zNGF2YtZrA4
 
Max Q
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 4:40 am

What’s the total fuel load of the XLR with and without this forward ACT ?
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majano
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 6:32 am

tomcat wrote:
thank you very much for this detailed explanation, even an accountant could follow. I assume where you referred to the cross section of the RCT as 4 sq.m it should just been 4m?
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 7:00 am

The A321 can carry belly containers the 737 not. So the 737 is supposed to be "better" for cargo?
If you don't need the maximum range you don't install the final ACT container tank in the XLR and carry more belly cargo. This flexibility is exactly the concept of this version. Max out the range or the belly space and change on short notice.
 
tomcat
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 8:54 am

majano wrote:
tomcat wrote:
thank you very much for this detailed explanation, even an accountant could follow. I assume where you referred to the cross section of the RCT as 4 sq.m it should just been 4m?


You're welcome.

Regarding the cross section of the tank my point was to estimate its area so that with the estimation of the length of the tank I could evaluate its volume.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 8:59 am

Max Q wrote:
What’s the total fuel load of the XLR with and without this forward ACT ?


36,900 l / 40,000 l
 
sagechan
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 11:11 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Anyone happen to know if there are any performance upgrades (if any) by forgoing the cargo loading system on these 320s? It seems like you could theoretically solve some of the issue of not having enough storage space by bulk loading bags, and at the same time saving weight from the cargo loading system onboard.


Bulk loading allows more cargo to be put in the holds and also saves weight. I could see airlines choosing to bulk load A321XLRs. Many airlines chose to bulk load their existing A321s

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Source https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-images/wizz-air.html


I'm currious if AA will consider the containers for the XLR, they have said they plan to do S.American flights with them where containers could be useful for cargo, though I'd expect most AA ones to be bulk loaded.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 11:55 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

The issue is that the A321XLR isn’t as capable at flying cargo as other planes. Not a problem for most leisure airlines, but it is a factor for network airlines or cargo heady markets like Latin America.

The 737-10 will have more cargo volume than the A321. Being able to fly cargo beyond passenger bags can help make flights profitable. The A321XLR is less cargo volume than widebodies or the 737-10, so airlines may choose to bulk load to allow more cargo on board. Containers add weight and reduce useable volume.


When you want to compare the 737-10 to the A321 you should define what version you are talking about. But we can start and go through the posibilities.

The 737-10 will have a MTOW of about 90 t, the OEW is not know yet, but we should look at 737-8 numbers. MTOW 82 t, OEW 45 t, Max payload 21 t.
The OEW difference between a 737-800 and 737-900 is 41,413 - 37,648 kg = 3,765 kg. I would assume a similar difference between a 737-8 and 737-9. A 737-10 will be heavier than a 737-9. I assume that the difference between a 737-8 and 737-10 would be 5 t.

So we have for the 737-10 with one ATC (standard) a MTOW, of 90 t, OEW of 50 t and max payload about 24 t. Range 3300nm. cargo capacity 55,5 m3.
24 payload would leave 16 t for fuel. The weight of the fuel on a 737MAX is 22.282kg with 1 ACT. The 737-10 would be fuel limit to 16 t and could use the max payload for short trips only.

Let us take the standard A321neo with 3 ACT.

MTOW 97 t, OEW 50.1 t, max payload 25.5 t, max fuel (3ACT) 26.450 kg. Cargo volume 50.1 m3 The A321 would also be fuel limited. At max payload it would take 22.4 t of fuel. So the range, it could deliver its slightly higher max payload to, would be considerable more than the 737-10.

Yes the 737-10 would have a slightly larger cargo volume with one ACT against the A321 with three ACT, but remove 2 ACT from the A321neo and you have the space, slightly more payload and more fuel, 22.3 t with one ACT. The A321 is not longer fuel volume limited in that configuration.

Under no operational circumstance I would be able to see an advantage for the 737-10 in regards to cargo.

When we go to the next step, the A321XLR, we see an increase in MTOW to 101 t. The fuel capacity without an ACT 26.9 t.
We do not have an OEW, but the weight is supposed to match the A321neo with 3 ACT, that would mean 50,1 t. Let us say 50,5 t.
That would bring MTOW 101, OEW 50.5, fuel 26.9 t and payload could be 23.6 t. With max payload at 25.5 t, fuel could 25 t.
Cargo volume should be around 54 M3.
This frame matches the 757-200 in max payload over the shorter ranges and surpasses the 757-200 over the longer range..

This frame is still further removed in capabilities from the 737-10.


I’m having trouble following your post. According to the ACAP, the 737-10 has total lower lobe cargo volume of 1,961 CU FT (55.5 CU M). What A321XLR configuration has more cargo volume than that?

Ref 2-26 https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... X_RevE.pdf


I just had a look at the A321neo Aircraft Characteristics and Airbus talks about usable volume. 51.72 m3. Loading ACT will reduce that number.
I read that the Boeing 737-10 Aircraft characteristics talk about 55,5 m3. Is that all usable? For example the doors of the 737 open inn and the A321 out. On the 737 the space for the doors have to be kept clear, is that deducted? Is the number with or without the standard ACT?
If the frame wants to take cargo the frame has also to have free payload and there IMO we have the problem in regards to the 737-10. What payload is left after passenger, bags and needed fuel on the 737-10?
I assume the A321neo and A321XLR to have left considerable more for freight usable payload than the 737-10, when passenger and bags have been considered.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 1:09 pm

Noshow wrote:
The A321 can carry belly containers the 737 not. So the 737 is supposed to be "better" for cargo?
If you don't need the maximum range you don't install the final ACT container tank in the XLR and carry more belly cargo. This flexibility is exactly the concept of this version. Max out the range or the belly space and change on short notice.


I didn’t see anyone say one airplane is “better” than another. This isn’t an A vs B thread. It’s a discussion about the A321XLR. The new fuel tank is meant to increase useable cargo volume since that’s a potential challenge for intercontinental A321XLR flights compared to airplanes that it may replace.
 
EduardoL
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 8:44 pm

Which MSN of the first A321XLR?
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 9:58 pm

EduardoL wrote:
Which MSN of the first A321XLR?


I have just verified the production list on ABCDlist and Plainspotter.net, it seems to be too early.
https://www.abcdlist.nl/airbus_a320.html
https://www.planespotters.net/production-list/Airbus/A321/A321neo?p=12
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 2:49 pm

Airbus has begun structural assembly of the 1st A321XLR

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... 21XLR.html

They started assembling center and rear fuselages as well as RTC in Hamburg.

Image
Airbus.com
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 11:45 pm

keesje wrote:
Airbus has begun structural assembly of the 1st A321XLR

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... 21XLR.html

They started assembling center and rear fuselages as well as RTC in Hamburg.

Image
Airbus.com


Do you know if the picture shows the center tank or the new rear center tank? I thought that new tank uses the whole volume of the lower fuselage.
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tomcat
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 8:06 am

DLHAM wrote:
keesje wrote:
Airbus has begun structural assembly of the 1st A321XLR

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... 21XLR.html

They started assembling center and rear fuselages as well as RTC in Hamburg.

Image
Airbus.com


Do you know if the picture shows the center tank or the new rear center tank? I thought that new tank uses the whole volume of the lower fuselage.


The picture shows the aft end of the new rear center tank inside the section 17. This aft end is pretty much underneath the doors L/R-3. Looking forward, you see the section of the new tank becomes wider and is conforming to the lower part of the fuselage. In the picture posted upthread, you can see the front end of the section 17.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 9:54 am

tomcat wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
keesje wrote:
Airbus has begun structural assembly of the 1st A321XLR

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... 21XLR.html

They started assembling center and rear fuselages as well as RTC in Hamburg.

Image
Airbus.com


Do you know if the picture shows the center tank or the new rear center tank? I thought that new tank uses the whole volume of the lower fuselage.


The picture shows the aft end of the new rear center tank inside the section 17. This aft end is pretty much underneath the doors L/R-3. Looking forward, you see the section of the new tank becomes wider and is conforming to the lower part of the fuselage. In the picture posted upthread, you can see the front end of the section 17.


Oh okay, interesting. This thing is really huge! Do you know why it narrows at the end?
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 12:28 pm

DLHAM wrote:
tomcat wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

Do you know if the picture shows the center tank or the new rear center tank? I thought that new tank uses the whole volume of the lower fuselage.


The picture shows the aft end of the new rear center tank inside the section 17. This aft end is pretty much underneath the doors L/R-3. Looking forward, you see the section of the new tank becomes wider and is conforming to the lower part of the fuselage. In the picture posted upthread, you can see the front end of the section 17.


Oh okay, interesting. This thing is really huge! Do you know why it narrows at the end?


I haven't found the details, but it is not like there was lots of empty space left on the A321, that could be easily utilized for fuel. It's a modification full of compromises, the open spaces will no doubt be filled with stuff that had to be moved.

While the A321LR is pretty much a regular A321, the XLR is a siginificant modification. Trading commonality for range..
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pugman211
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 7:33 pm

If anyone knows any MSN's I will keep an eye open for the first wings
 
tealnz
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 10:09 pm

We’re presented with a bit of a mystery (and a tease – Airbus could have released an aft-facing pic a month ago and chose not to). So why have they configured the aft part of the tank in that way? It gives up a lot of potential volume. If it was a centre of gravity issue they could have stuck with full width and just made it shorter. Any theories?
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 11:35 pm

tealnz wrote:
We’re presented with a bit of a mystery (and a tease – Airbus could have released an aft-facing pic a month ago and chose not to). So why have they configured the aft part of the tank in that way? It gives up a lot of potential volume. If it was a centre of gravity issue they could have stuck with full width and just made it shorter. Any theories?


I think what keesje said makes sense: in regular A321s theres not much space between center tank and the cargo hold. So with the rear center tank installed some technical stuff may had to be moved and could find its new place on the sides of the aft part of the tank.
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744SPX
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 11:46 pm

keesje wrote:
Article about the safety concerns raised by Boeing on the vunerability of the new rear tank for outside fire.

Image
https://kaplanianreport.com/

The more skilled people that take a look at new aircraft design, the higher the chances faults are found and corrected in time.



This would actually be humorous if it weren't so pathetic. Boeing is going to lecture Airbus on safety after the MAX debacle?

Or perhaps this is a way to avoid having to build an XLR competitor. Just try to torpedo the competitions aircraft instead, much cheaper solution.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 2:01 am

744SPX wrote:
Or perhaps this is a way to avoid having to build an XLR competitor. Just try to torpedo the competitions aircraft instead, much cheaper solution.

Didn't work out so well for them in the CSX00/A220 saga.... but I guess they'll try even more so.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 11:26 am

One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 12:08 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.

Airbus has stated since launch that the RCT would hold more fuel than 4 ACTs while taking up the space of 2. See https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/17/airbu ... -a220-300/

One of the points of the XLR is to hold more fuel than the LR, not to hold the same amount in less space.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 12:10 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.


Do you have link for the numbers? I could imagine they found extra liters, but 30% extra sounds extreme.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 1:08 pm

JonesNL wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.


Do you have link for the numbers? I could imagine they found extra liters, but 30% extra sounds extreme.


Go to Airbus.com there is a story about the begin of the assembly of the A321XLR, with pictures of the fixed center tank and the amount of fuel it would carry.

The story has been mentioned some posts earlier in this thread.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 1:16 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.

Airbus has stated since launch that the RCT would hold more fuel than 4 ACTs while taking up the space of 2. See https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/17/airbu ... -a220-300/

One of the points of the XLR is to hold more fuel than the LR, not to hold the same amount in less space.


My reference is a bit older, I have it here just as a pdf marked Airbus from the discussions before launch. There was the talk about one ACT in the forward hold. With this size of the fixed center tank there is no need for an ACT in the forward hold to reach the advertised range.
And actually it is also about the same amount of fuel in less space, even if is more fuel in less space.
 
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 1:35 pm

tealnz wrote:
We’re presented with a bit of a mystery (and a tease – Airbus could have released an aft-facing pic a month ago and chose not to). So why have they configured the aft part of the tank in that way? It gives up a lot of potential volume. If it was a centre of gravity issue they could have stuck with full width and just made it shorter. Any theories?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories ... pdate.html gives a clue: XLR provides more water and liquid waste storage than the baseline model.

Makes sense, more people up in the air for longer time requires more water, results in more trips to the loo.

744SPX wrote:
This would actually be humorous if it weren't so pathetic. Boeing is going to lecture Airbus on safety after the MAX debacle?

Or perhaps this is a way to avoid having to build an XLR competitor. Just try to torpedo the competitions aircraft instead, much cheaper solution.

Your tone seems overly excited, IMO.

This is a techie filing comments that at the bare minimum raises awareness of a potential safety issue.

This is not an international trade action followed by press releases.

No one is being lectured.

The flip side of this would be EASA being so arrogant that they won't listen to outside voices, the fact they are is good for aviation.
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 2:50 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.

Airbus has stated since launch that the RCT would hold more fuel than 4 ACTs while taking up the space of 2. See https://leehamnews.com/2019/06/17/airbu ... -a220-300/

One of the points of the XLR is to hold more fuel than the LR, not to hold the same amount in less space.


My reference is a bit older, I have it here just as a pdf marked Airbus from the discussions before launch. There was the talk about one ACT in the forward hold. With this size of the fixed center tank there is no need for an ACT in the forward hold to reach the advertised range.
And actually it is also about the same amount of fuel in less space, even if is more fuel in less space.

From the Leeham link I posted:

The additional range is offered thanks to a new rear center fuel tank (RCT) on the lower deck. [Airbus Chief Commercial Officer Christian] Scherer claimed the XLR’s RCT holds more fuel than four optional Additional Center Tanks (ACTs) while taking the same belly space as two ACTs, which would free up room for baggage and cargo.


There have been no surprises in terms of fuel volumes of the RCT. It’s volume is in line with what Airbus has been saying since launch. The extra ACT has always been available but as others pointed out earlier in this thread (or another, idk) you are unlikely to see many airlines equip it due to the max passenger restrictions needed to keep payload down to fill all the tanks when outfitted. Airbus’s marketing range has never been at max fuel. The A321XLR’s MTOW is not high enough for max fuel and normal A321 payload.
 
tomcat
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 4:01 pm

About the volume of the new RCT, so far its capacity had generally been stated as being 12,900 l. Here is a quote from Airbus for example:
It will offer even more range – up to 4,700 nm (8,700 km) – in a comfortable 2-class layout, thanks to an increased maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) of 101 tonnes, which enables the jetliner to be fitted with a permanent Rear Centre Tank (carrying 12,900 litres of fuel) and an optional forward Additional Centre Tank.


https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/passenger-aircraft/a320-family/a321neo.html

Now Airbus is stating that it will be 13,100 l, that's a minor increase compared to what we knew so far. Or is this 200 l difference actually the difference between the RCT volume and the RCT usable fuel capacity?
 
tomcat
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 4:14 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
One interesting thing about the Airbus news about starting the assembly of the center and rear fuselage is in regards to the size of the fixed center tank.
13,100 l is more than 4 times of one of the ACT (about 3,000 l usable fuel) used on the A321neo. Fuel volume on the A321XLR should be 24,050 + 13,100 = 37,150 l.
When the A321XLR was announced the fixed center tank should replace the 3 ACT on the A321LR and one ACT should give the additional range.
It seems they managed a bigger fixed center tank than first advertised, negating the need for an extra ACT.


Do you have link for the numbers? I could imagine they found extra liters, but 30% extra sounds extreme.


Go to Airbus.com there is a story about the begin of the assembly of the A321XLR, with pictures of the fixed center tank and the amount of fuel it would carry.

The story has been mentioned some posts earlier in this thread.


@JonesNL - If you go back to post #49, you'll fin my estimate of the volume of the RCT based on the picture that was posted in the thread starter. At the time I didn't realize that the RCT had this narrower extension further aft (*). Obviously I had slightly overestimated the area of the RCT's main cross section (it's probably closer to 3.5 sq.m. rather than 4 sq.m). But in the end of the day, it is clear that this RCT can hold about 13,000 l of fuel.

(*) I remember being a bit troubled at the time because I couldn't figure out where the following panel would be installed in the RCT. Now it's clear I think, it's its aft boundary:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/First-metal-cut-achieved-for-the-A321XLRs-Rear-Centre-Tank-section.html
 
SteelChair
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 5:17 pm

I wonder about the center of gravity implications of this new tank concept. I guess it will be burned off first, does anyone know the fuel schedule?
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 12:53 pm

I think on the XLR new wings and engines, Airbus has been quiet, very quiet. No milestones, no art impressions, testing updates. Remarkable.

It could be the new wing design, engine rating details could give Boeing too much valuable info on possible A322 intentions.

E.g. if CFM would mention they are testing, certifying a 36k lbs LeapA, that would send a message.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JohanTally
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 1:01 pm

keesje wrote:
I think on the XLR new wings and engines, Airbus has been quiet, very quiet. No milestones, no art impressions, testing updates. Remarkable.

It could be the new wing design, engine rating details could give Boeing too much valuable info on possible A322 intentions.

E.g. if CFM would mention they are testing, certifying a 36k lbs LeapA, that would send a message.

The XLR doesn't have new wings or engines just modified flaps and a possible thrust bump. Recently there were mentions of a new wing but that has been in the works for years.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 1:22 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I wonder about the center of gravity implications of this new tank concept. I guess it will be burned off first, does anyone know the fuel schedule?

I do not know the fuel schedule, but going off memory, the engines feed off the wing tanks. Usually centerline tanks refill the wing tanks as that gives the greatest opportunity to remove fuel from center tanks and thus minimize unusable fuel volume (dead weight).

Lightsaber
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 1:35 pm

JohanTally wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think on the XLR new wings and engines, Airbus has been quiet, very quiet. No milestones, no art impressions, testing updates. Remarkable.

It could be the new wing design, engine rating details could give Boeing too much valuable info on possible A322 intentions.

E.g. if CFM would mention they are testing, certifying a 36k lbs LeapA, that would send a message.

The XLR doesn't have new wings or engines just modified flaps and a possible thrust bump. Recently there were mentions of a new wing but that has been in the works for years.


Moving to a single big flap is a significant modification, think of the supporting structure, mechanisms. Also beefing up for 101t MTOW touches many structures and systems. I wonder if other wing modifications will show up.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 2:06 pm

keesje wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think on the XLR new wings and engines, Airbus has been quiet, very quiet. No milestones, no art impressions, testing updates. Remarkable.

It could be the new wing design, engine rating details could give Boeing too much valuable info on possible A322 intentions.

E.g. if CFM would mention they are testing, certifying a 36k lbs LeapA, that would send a message.

The XLR doesn't have new wings or engines just modified flaps and a possible thrust bump. Recently there were mentions of a new wing but that has been in the works for years.


Moving to a single big flap is a significant modification, think of the supporting structure, mechanisms. Also beefing up for 101t MTOW touches many structures and systems. I wonder if other wing modifications will show up.


It’s a bit of a stretch to call switching from double slotted to single slotted inboard flaps “a new wing”, so lack of artist renderings isn’t a surprise. The A320 already has single slotted flaps. Double slotted flaps were added to the A321 when it was designed to improve slow speed performance. I’m not so sure that Airbus wants to highlight climb performance and landing performance at this point for the A321XLR. I’m curious what initial cruise altitudes will look like along with takeoff/landing performance compared to the A321neo. Airbus is more interested in touting increased fuel capacity and range.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 4:41 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
The XLR doesn't have new wings or engines just modified flaps and a possible thrust bump. Recently there were mentions of a new wing but that has been in the works for years.


Moving to a single big flap is a significant modification, think of the supporting structure, mechanisms. Also beefing up for 101t MTOW touches many structures and systems. I wonder if other wing modifications will show up.


It’s a bit of a stretch to call switching from double slotted to single slotted inboard flaps “a new wing”, so lack of artist renderings isn’t a surprise. The A320 already has single slotted flaps. Double slotted flaps were added to the A321 when it was designed to improve slow speed performance. I’m not so sure that Airbus wants to highlight climb performance and landing performance at this point for the A321XLR. I’m curious what initial cruise altitudes will look like along with takeoff/landing performance compared to the A321neo. Airbus is more interested in touting increased fuel capacity and range.


The new single slot is supposed to perform better than the old double slotted flap on the A321. It will still be different from the flap on the A320. Apart from increasing takeoff and landing performance it is supposed to offer a morphing wing, used therefore during the flight to increase performance of the wing.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 6:12 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Moving to a single big flap is a significant modification, think of the supporting structure, mechanisms. Also beefing up for 101t MTOW touches many structures and systems. I wonder if other wing modifications will show up.


It’s a bit of a stretch to call switching from double slotted to single slotted inboard flaps “a new wing”, so lack of artist renderings isn’t a surprise. The A320 already has single slotted flaps. Double slotted flaps were added to the A321 when it was designed to improve slow speed performance. I’m not so sure that Airbus wants to highlight climb performance and landing performance at this point for the A321XLR. I’m curious what initial cruise altitudes will look like along with takeoff/landing performance compared to the A321neo. Airbus is more interested in touting increased fuel capacity and range.


The new single slot is supposed to perform better than the old double slotted flap on the A321. It will still be different from the flap on the A320. Apart from increasing takeoff and landing performance it is supposed to offer a morphing wing, used therefore during the flight to increase performance of the wing.


By morphing if the wing, I assume you mean variable camber like the 787 and A350 have.
 
LDRA
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 8:41 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I wonder about the center of gravity implications of this new tank concept. I guess it will be burned off first, does anyone know the fuel schedule?

It is possible that one of the reasons for new flaps is to move center of lift rearward in flaps extended configuration, especially at higher angle of attack
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 10:19 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

It’s a bit of a stretch to call switching from double slotted to single slotted inboard flaps “a new wing”, so lack of artist renderings isn’t a surprise. The A320 already has single slotted flaps. Double slotted flaps were added to the A321 when it was designed to improve slow speed performance. I’m not so sure that Airbus wants to highlight climb performance and landing performance at this point for the A321XLR. I’m curious what initial cruise altitudes will look like along with takeoff/landing performance compared to the A321neo. Airbus is more interested in touting increased fuel capacity and range.


The new single slot is supposed to perform better than the old double slotted flap on the A321. It will still be different from the flap on the A320. Apart from increasing takeoff and landing performance it is supposed to offer a morphing wing, used therefore during the flight to increase performance of the wing.


By morphing if the wing, I assume you mean variable camber like the 787 and A350 have.


Yes.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:43 pm

Todays press conference:

- A321XLR EIS 2023
- MEA is to be the launch customer
- American Airlines first XLR in 2023.
- Frontier will launch the first A321XLR in 2024
- United Airlines in 2025

https://industry-update.com/airbus-a321xlr-orbit-scheduled-to-be-introduced-in-2023/47632/

I assume the first XLR's will be completed in Hamburg, but assembly will move over to Mobile later on.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:20 pm

keesje wrote:
Todays press conference:

- A321XLR EIS 2023
- MEA is to be the launch customer
- American Airlines first XLR in 2023.
- Frontier will launch the first A321XLR in 2024
- United Airlines in 2025

https://industry-update.com/airbus-a321xlr-orbit-scheduled-to-be-introduced-in-2023/47632/

I assume the first XLR's will be completed in Hamburg, but assembly will move over to Mobile later on.

No mention of B6, but mentions all other US carriers who have it on order. That’s interesting. I wonder if B6 will convert to NEOs or LRs and leave the would-be XLR flying to AA.
 
EduardoL
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:28 am

What will be the msn on the first test plane?
 
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flee
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:27 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The new single slot is supposed to perform better than the old double slotted flap on the A321. It will still be different from the flap on the A320. Apart from increasing takeoff and landing performance it is supposed to offer a morphing wing, used therefore during the flight to increase performance of the wing.

I wonder if this is an opportunity for Airbus to reduce the weight of the flaps, e.g use carbon composites for this part?
 
astuteman
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:36 am

flee wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The new single slot is supposed to perform better than the old double slotted flap on the A321. It will still be different from the flap on the A320. Apart from increasing takeoff and landing performance it is supposed to offer a morphing wing, used therefore during the flight to increase performance of the wing.

I wonder if this is an opportunity for Airbus to reduce the weight of the flaps, e.g use carbon composites for this part?


They have already claimed a weight reduction, and complexity reduction

https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/a ... 41.article

Airbus's revision of the trailing-edge system on the A321XLR will deliver weight and drag improvements as well as a reduction in complexity.


Rgds
 
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A330freak
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:12 pm

As part of their "Virtual Commercial Update", Airbus included a quick video on the production so far of the XLR (I've linked it below with the timestamp from when this was showed).

This also shows MSNs 11,000 and 11,058 as being XLRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe0BENQ ... nel=Airbus
 
Kikko19
Posts: 705
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:27 pm

astuteman wrote:
flee wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The new single slot is supposed to perform better than the old double slotted flap on the A321. It will still be different from the flap on the A320. Apart from increasing takeoff and landing performance it is supposed to offer a morphing wing, used therefore during the flight to increase performance of the wing.

I wonder if this is an opportunity for Airbus to reduce the weight of the flaps, e.g use carbon composites for this part?


They have already claimed a weight reduction, and complexity reduction

https://www.flightglobal.com/analysis/a ... 41.article

Airbus's revision of the trailing-edge system on the A321XLR will deliver weight and drag improvements as well as a reduction in complexity.


Rgds

Will they back port all the advances also to the "normal NEO"? It wouldn't be the first time.
 
pugman211
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Re: Airbus A321XLR Development Production Testing Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:28 pm

A330freak wrote:
As part of their "Virtual Commercial Update", Airbus included a quick video on the production so far of the XLR (I've linked it below with the timestamp from when this was showed).

This also shows MSNs 11,000 and 11,058 as being XLRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe0BENQ ... nel=Airbus


Nice! I will keep an eye open for these

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