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asuflyer
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Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 6:43 pm

Air Senegal is starting US service beginning September 21, with 2 weekly Dakar – New York JFK – Washington Dulles flights on Airbus A330-900neo aircraft. Air Senegals A330 fleet is crewed in part by Hifly.

No press release yet however the following flights have been loaded in the GDS.

HC407 DSS0130 – 0600JFK0830 – 1000IAD 330 47
HC408 IAD2025 – 2155JFK2355 – 1225+1DSS 330 47

SA previously served IAD-DKR and DL currently serves JFK-DSS.

Air Senegal has previously expressed interest in the US.
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Pellegrine
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 7:33 pm

I'd love to try it! Interesting schedule for someone like me based in IAD: IAD-JFK-DSS-JFK-IAD.

I still miss the DKR airport, if only for the scenery.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 8:01 pm

I honestly don’t get why not once weekly to IAD and twice weekly to JFK, each as terminator.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 8:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I honestly don’t get why not once weekly to IAD and twice weekly to JFK, each as terminator.


I agree,and to boot, for those going to IAD on the tag, it means clearing customs and immigration at JFK, then clearing security again, since it's the first port of entry to the US.

Barring economic COVID impacts necessitating these tags, in the age of codesharing in the post-COVID environment, there really isn't a reason for these tag services.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 9:18 pm

Same reason why RJ still does AMM-YUL-DTW in winter. Not enough demand for stand alone YUL and DTW service during the winter months.

It’s most likely the same reason here.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 11:09 pm

Quick way to lose a lot of money
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SRQKEF
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 05, 2021 11:50 pm

Why not at least a triangle route? Flying JFK-IAD-JFK seems like a waste to me when they could just do DSS-JFK-IAD-DSS. I wish them success but this doesn't sound like a winning formula to me, just JFK and a jetBlue codeshare would've made much more sense.
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praunda
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 12:50 am

Agree with SRQKEF on the triangulation, and I'm also surprised there's such a long stop at IAD, waiting until 2025 for a departure that then stops again at JFK, only to land at 1225+1. I would think a more convenient schedule would be to leave IAD at say 1700 or 1800 and get to DSS by mid-morning—more utility in creating a hub if there was a bank of midday flights to connect to (ABJ, ACC, LOS, OUA, FNA-ROB, etc) like a European model. Surely that would be a more obvious model to emulate and more commercially successful? And, with such a late Westbound departure, could even squeeze in a high capacity DSS-ABJ-DSS on the same metal and get back in time to cross the Atlantic again?

Any rumors of B6 codesharing? maybe even UA at IAD?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 1:20 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Same reason why RJ still does AMM-YUL-DTW in winter. Not enough demand for stand alone YUL and DTW service during the winter months.

It’s most likely the same reason here.


Does Canada require everyone to clear immigration and customs at YUL? (As for DTW in winter---it could be made seasonal and passengers from there could be put on AA metal to ORD.)
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 1:22 am

praunda wrote:
Agree with SRQKEF on the triangulation, and I'm also surprised there's such a long stop at IAD, waiting until 2025 for a departure that then stops again at JFK, only to land at 1225+1. I would think a more convenient schedule would be to leave IAD at say 1700 or 1800 and get to DSS by mid-morning—more utility in creating a hub if there was a bank of midday flights to connect to (ABJ, ACC, LOS, OUA, FNA-ROB, etc) like a European model. Surely that would be a more obvious model to emulate and more commercially successful? And, with such a late Westbound departure, could even squeeze in a high capacity DSS-ABJ-DSS on the same metal and get back in time to cross the Atlantic again?

Any rumors of B6 codesharing? maybe even UA at IAD?


The long stop at IAD might be due to slot times at JFK. It seems HC could only score some off-peak slot times at JFK, as far as TATL service goes, that is.

As for the triangle routing, it doesn't come without it's challenges either. For one, if you're originating in JFK, flying JFK-IAD-DSS is not competitive. The non-stop both ways is better.

Usually carriers do triangle routings out of necessity, and not because it's more efficient. Ex. One of the airports might not have a long enough runway to support non stop back to base, or there are altitude issues. (KL out of SXM comes to mind, or TK on IST-MEX-CUN-IST)

KL is currently doing a triangle routing on AMS-YYC-YEG-AMS, not by choice, but rather because the Canadian government requires all international flights to land at either YYZ/YVR/YUL/YYC. So the triangle routing is a work around.
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Thu May 06, 2021 1:51 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 1:31 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Same reason why RJ still does AMM-YUL-DTW in winter. Not enough demand for stand alone YUL and DTW service during the winter months.

It’s most likely the same reason here.


Does Canada require everyone to clear immigration and customs at YUL? (As for DTW in winter---it could be made seasonal and passengers from there could be put on AA metal to ORD.)


I don't think so. I believe passengers flying DTW-AMM or AMM-DTW stay on the plane at YUL.

Here is a trip report from someone that did DTW-YUL-AMM back in 2011, and he seems to support that fact. (reply 5)

viewtopic.php?t=971267
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lesfalls
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 1:47 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Same reason why RJ still does AMM-YUL-DTW in winter. Not enough demand for stand alone YUL and DTW service during the winter months.

It’s most likely the same reason here.


Does Canada require everyone to clear immigration and customs at YUL? (As for DTW in winter---it could be made seasonal and passengers from there could be put on AA metal to ORD.)


I don't think so. I believe passengers flying DTW-AMM or AMM-DTW stay on the plane at YUL.

Here is a trip report from someone that did DTW-YUL-AMM back in 2011, and he seems to support that fact. (reply 5)

viewtopic.php?t=971267


Is it sold as a 5th freedom?
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 1:48 am

lesfalls wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

Does Canada require everyone to clear immigration and customs at YUL? (As for DTW in winter---it could be made seasonal and passengers from there could be put on AA metal to ORD.)


I don't think so. I believe passengers flying DTW-AMM or AMM-DTW stay on the plane at YUL.

Here is a trip report from someone that did DTW-YUL-AMM back in 2011, and he seems to support that fact. (reply 5)

viewtopic.php?t=971267


Is it sold as a 5th freedom?


Negative. I heard they have the rights, but choose not to exercise them. Don't blame them.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 2:07 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Same reason why RJ still does AMM-YUL-DTW in winter. Not enough demand for stand alone YUL and DTW service during the winter months.

It’s most likely the same reason here.


This at least makes more sense as RJ has sold YUL-DTW as a 5th freedom market in the past. Currently, it looks like they're not doing it, likely due to US-Canada COVID border restrictions.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Does Canada require everyone to clear immigration and customs at YUL? (As for DTW in winter---it could be made seasonal and passengers from there could be put on AA metal to ORD.)


There's a Youtube video trip report by user "Razgriz Flight & Spotting" that covers a procedure at YVR, with the AF CDG-PPT flight with YVR as the fuel stop (no 5th freedoms), pax are sent into the waiting area with the moveable glass partitions segregating off the rest of the departure floor. I suspect there's a similar setup at YUL for the RJ flights for the passengers continuing on to DTW.
 
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FLIHGH
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 12:37 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
Why not at least a triangle route? Flying JFK-IAD-JFK seems like a waste to me when they could just do DSS-JFK-IAD-DSS. I wish them success but this doesn't sound like a winning formula to me, just JFK and a jetBlue codeshare would've made much more sense.

JetBlue doesn’t fly NYC-DC.
 
mhkansan
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 06, 2021 8:47 pm

I would presume the 10 hour stop in IAD is for crew rest. The same reason a 2x weekly flight wouldn't be doable with a triangle is there is no good place to swap out crews.
 
alexdelzotto
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 12:19 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Same reason why RJ still does AMM-YUL-DTW in winter. Not enough demand for stand alone YUL and DTW service during the winter months.

It’s most likely the same reason here.


Does Canada require everyone to clear immigration and customs at YUL? (As for DTW in winter---it could be made seasonal and passengers from there could be put on AA metal to ORD.)


RJ at YUL use gates that can be sealed off by glass partitions. PAX then wait in the gate area until the plane is groomed and then simply re-board
 
AngelAirways
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 1:08 am

I'm not too concerned about the IAD tag - though it would probably be more efficient to just interline people to IAD or DCA on a US domestic airline, but I am very happy for the JFK service, bringing much needed competition to Delta which always charges $1200 round trip in Y class - never any less - rain or shine.

Yes, the slots are not ideal but hopefully with time they will be able to get better slots at JFK.

I'd like to think/hope that this service stands a better chance of survival than KQ's much longer NBO-JFK-NBO sector - as JFK-DSS is only around 8 hrs flying time (if I recall).

It is crucial that the US Embassy in Dakar starts accepting applications for B1/B2 nonimmigrant visitor visas again (currently halted due to Covid) which will help boost passenger numbers. Maybe that is why they have a late September start date, missing out on the summer season. Currently only US Passport holders or those with green cards or student or work visas can travel in from Senegal.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 2:41 am

mhkansan wrote:
I would presume the 10 hour stop in IAD is for crew rest. The same reason a 2x weekly flight wouldn't be doable with a triangle is there is no good place to swap out crews.


Don't think a 10 hour stop is enough for the crew to operate both legs. Most likely 2 different crews will be required. Hi-Fly is operating, so they go by European regulations.
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AF022
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 10:09 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
mhkansan wrote:
I would presume the 10 hour stop in IAD is for crew rest. The same reason a 2x weekly flight wouldn't be doable with a triangle is there is no good place to swap out crews.


Don't think a 10 hour stop is enough for the crew to operate both legs. Most likely 2 different crews will be required. Hi-Fly is operating, so they go by European regulations.


Agree, there's no way a 10-hour rest is enough for such a long routing. Crew costs are going to be extremely high with just 2 weekly flights, lucky the crew member who gets to spend 3 or 4 nights in IAD.

Timing probably set up for connectivity at DSS.
 
iadbudd
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 10:34 am

0830 arrival into JFK and 1000 departure to continue on to IAD might be unattainable often. As someone who worked those triangle JFK-IAD-JFK flights pre 9/11 and post 9/11 when the first port of entry requirements were enforced for the IAD pax to clear JFK, those quick 60 min turns at the most pre 9/11 when it was just a offload JFK pax and some gas while the IAD pax and bags stayed onboard, led to 2 to 3 hour turns especially when some IAD pax got sent to secondary inspection. The offloading of bags, clearing customs, loading bags again took some time. I worked the Saudia JFK-IAD-JFK and Ethiopian EWR-IAD-EWR flights at IAD late 90's early 2000's.
 
behramjee
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 11:15 am

iadbudd wrote:
0830 arrival into JFK and 1000 departure to continue on to IAD might be unattainable often. As someone who worked those triangle JFK-IAD-JFK flights pre 9/11 and post 9/11 when the first port of entry requirements were enforced for the IAD pax to clear JFK, those quick 60 min turns at the most pre 9/11 when it was just a offload JFK pax and some gas while the IAD pax and bags stayed onboard, led to 2 to 3 hour turns especially when some IAD pax got sent to secondary inspection. The offloading of bags, clearing customs, loading bags again took some time. I worked the Saudia JFK-IAD-JFK and Ethiopian EWR-IAD-EWR flights at IAD late 90's early 2000's.


You didn’t read the initial post properly as it’s 0600 arr into JFK Terminal 1 and departure for IAD at 0830 so ground time is 2:30 at T1.

There is no immigration rush at T1 at 0600 like there is at T4 so it would be a much more smoother process for the pax headed onwards to IAD.
 
behramjee
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 12:51 pm

AngelAirways wrote:
I'm not too concerned about the IAD tag - though it would probably be more efficient to just interline people to IAD or DCA on a US domestic airline, but I am very happy for the JFK service, bringing much needed competition to Delta which always charges $1200 round trip in Y class - never any less - rain or shine.

Yes, the slots are not ideal but hopefully with time they will be able to get better slots at JFK.

I'd like to think/hope that this service stands a better chance of survival than KQ's much longer NBO-JFK-NBO sector - as JFK-DSS is only around 8 hrs flying time (if I recall).

It is crucial that the US Embassy in Dakar starts accepting applications for B1/B2 nonimmigrant visitor visas again (currently halted due to Covid) which will help boost passenger numbers. Maybe that is why they have a late September start date, missing out on the summer season. Currently only US Passport holders or those with green cards or student or work visas can travel in from Senegal.


The start date of this new service is Thu 02Sep and not 22Sep.

The schedule is what it is so that the flight in both directions via Dakar offers connections to HC's West African network within 2-3 hours. The connecting cities are ABJ BKO CKY BJL NKC ZIG + one more to be added soon. If the flight did a triangle routing or a quick turnaround from USA, it would unfortunately connect to nothing via DSS hence making it totally reliant on p2p traffic alone which is not good. Even all of HC's EU + CMN bound services connect both ways via DSS to the earlier mentioned destinations as the Dakar hub is growing in acceptance with regional bound pax.

In 2019, p2p demand between Dakar and JFK was 34,000 whilst IAD was 21,000 round trip pax each respectively. Note that from ABJ, ET no longer operates nonstop 3 weekly services to New York JFK and the p2p demand here is 26,000 round trip annually + another 10K to IAD.

Yes there will be crew rest at IAD for few days as 10 hours is not enough after completing a trans-atlantic service.

I flew recently DSS-JFK-MCO on DL (first time ever on DL long haul) and it was a very smooth, enjoyable flight which departed Dakar at 0100 and landed into JFK at 0530 on time. I was very comfortable in Y class, had 3 seats to sleep on, Wi-Fi was very fast (touchwood) and seat comfort/leg room was good. The timing was excellent as its like a red-eye of sorts but in the opposite direction. JFK-MCO though was almost full on the B738 with J class completely sold out which surprised me. I must commend the DL B767 captain/fo as their landing into JFK was one of the most smoothest and quiet ones I've ever experienced on a wide body jet.

On a personal note if I may, if anyone you know is transiting or flying out of Dakar airport this summer between 1200-2330, I highly recommend trying the new neopolitan pizza restaurant opened up opposite Gate 1 called Mammas. It is as good as any Neapolitan pizza that one would find in Italy. High quality imported ingredients and an amazing crust.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 1:15 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I honestly don’t get why not once weekly to IAD and twice weekly to JFK, each as terminator.


I agree,and to boot, for those going to IAD on the tag, it means clearing customs and immigration at JFK, then clearing security again, since it's the first port of entry to the US.

Barring economic COVID impacts necessitating these tags, in the age of codesharing in the post-COVID environment, there really isn't a reason for these tag services.


That doesn’t make any sense. If you’re not deplaning at JFK, your port of entry is IAD and would clear customs there. It’s not like any pax will be boarding at JFK. These types of two stops in the same country on an international flight used to be commonplace. I don’t think the US is different than Canada in that regard. Think back to when a stop at BGR for gas happened all the time before continuing on to JFK, IAD, MIA, etc.

In Canada, the only exception I can think of is Sunwing has operated sun flights from a couple of towns without customs. In those cases everyone clears at the 1st stop.
 
iadbudd
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 2:20 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I honestly don’t get why not once weekly to IAD and twice weekly to JFK, each as terminator.


I agree,and to boot, for those going to IAD on the tag, it means clearing customs and immigration at JFK, then clearing security again, since it's the first port of entry to the US.

Barring economic COVID impacts necessitating these tags, in the age of codesharing in the post-COVID environment, there really isn't a reason for these tag services.


That doesn’t make any sense. If you’re not deplaning at JFK, your port of entry is IAD and would clear customs there. It’s not like any pax will be boarding at JFK. These types of two stops in the same country on an international flight used to be commonplace. I don’t think the US is different than Canada in that regard. Think back to when a stop at BGR for gas happened all the time before continuing on to JFK, IAD, MIA, etc.

In Canada, the only exception I can think of is Sunwing has operated sun flights from a couple of towns without customs. In those cases everyone clears at the 1st stop.



It doesn't make sense as no additional passengers are boarded at JFK for the flight down to IAD, but after 9/11 this became the case for these type of flights. At least when they do get to IAD they arrive as domestic passengers and of course don't have to clear again and just claim their bags at a domestic carousel.
 
iadbudd
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 2:22 pm

behramjee wrote:
iadbudd wrote:
0830 arrival into JFK and 1000 departure to continue on to IAD might be unattainable often. As someone who worked those triangle JFK-IAD-JFK flights pre 9/11 and post 9/11 when the first port of entry requirements were enforced for the IAD pax to clear JFK, those quick 60 min turns at the most pre 9/11 when it was just a offload JFK pax and some gas while the IAD pax and bags stayed onboard, led to 2 to 3 hour turns especially when some IAD pax got sent to secondary inspection. The offloading of bags, clearing customs, loading bags again took some time. I worked the Saudia JFK-IAD-JFK and Ethiopian EWR-IAD-EWR flights at IAD late 90's early 2000's.


You didn’t read the initial post properly as it’s 0600 arr into JFK Terminal 1 and departure for IAD at 0830 so ground time is 2:30 at T1.

There is no immigration rush at T1 at 0600 like there is at T4 so it would be a much more smoother process for the pax headed onwards to IAD.



Thanks, I didn't notice that. That turnaround certainly seems more reasonable and nothing would hold them back from leaving earlier if everything is done. And the passengers would just go to a domestic belt at IAD and would avoid a normally heavy morning rush around 0800-1000 at IAD CBP,
 
behramjee
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 2:35 pm

iadbudd wrote:
behramjee wrote:
iadbudd wrote:
0830 arrival into JFK and 1000 departure to continue on to IAD might be unattainable often. As someone who worked those triangle JFK-IAD-JFK flights pre 9/11 and post 9/11 when the first port of entry requirements were enforced for the IAD pax to clear JFK, those quick 60 min turns at the most pre 9/11 when it was just a offload JFK pax and some gas while the IAD pax and bags stayed onboard, led to 2 to 3 hour turns especially when some IAD pax got sent to secondary inspection. The offloading of bags, clearing customs, loading bags again took some time. I worked the Saudia JFK-IAD-JFK and Ethiopian EWR-IAD-EWR flights at IAD late 90's early 2000's.


You didn’t read the initial post properly as it’s 0600 arr into JFK Terminal 1 and departure for IAD at 0830 so ground time is 2:30 at T1.

There is no immigration rush at T1 at 0600 like there is at T4 so it would be a much more smoother process for the pax headed onwards to IAD.



Thanks, I didn't notice that. That turnaround certainly seems more reasonable and nothing would hold them back from leaving earlier if everything is done. And the passengers would just go to a domestic belt at IAD and would avoid a normally heavy morning rush around 0800-1000 at IAD CBP,


100% correct...happy to have clarified that for you
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Fri May 07, 2021 10:57 pm

iadbudd wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:

I agree,and to boot, for those going to IAD on the tag, it means clearing customs and immigration at JFK, then clearing security again, since it's the first port of entry to the US.

Barring economic COVID impacts necessitating these tags, in the age of codesharing in the post-COVID environment, there really isn't a reason for these tag services.


That doesn’t make any sense. If you’re not deplaning at JFK, your port of entry is IAD and would clear customs there. It’s not like any pax will be boarding at JFK. These types of two stops in the same country on an international flight used to be commonplace. I don’t think the US is different than Canada in that regard. Think back to when a stop at BGR for gas happened all the time before continuing on to JFK, IAD, MIA, etc.

In Canada, the only exception I can think of is Sunwing has operated sun flights from a couple of towns without customs. In those cases everyone clears at the 1st stop.



It doesn't make sense as no additional passengers are boarded at JFK for the flight down to IAD, but after 9/11 this became the case for these type of flights. At least when they do get to IAD they arrive as domestic passengers and of course don't have to clear again and just claim their bags at a domestic carousel.


Thanks for the clarification. Appreciate it...pretty silly legacy rule though.
 
behramjee
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Sat May 08, 2021 1:30 pm

Official announcement from IAD airport concerning the upcoming launch of Air Senegal's 2 weekly IAD via JFK service

https://www.mwaa.com/about/air-senegal- ... al-airport
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Sat May 08, 2021 3:02 pm

FLIHGH wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
Why not at least a triangle route? Flying JFK-IAD-JFK seems like a waste to me when they could just do DSS-JFK-IAD-DSS. I wish them success but this doesn't sound like a winning formula to me, just JFK and a jetBlue codeshare would've made much more sense.

JetBlue doesn’t fly NYC-DC.


I was more hinting at general US coverage, not DC especially. Is the DC route perhaps politically motivated?
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
konkret
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Tue May 11, 2021 11:52 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Usually carriers do triangle routings out of necessity, and not because it's more efficient. Ex. One of the airports might not have a long enough runway to support non stop back to base, or there are altitude issues. (KL out of SXM comes to mind, or TK on IST-MEX-CUN-IST)


Why would KL have any issues with flying non-stop from SXM to AMS?
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 12, 2021 12:01 am

konkret wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Usually carriers do triangle routings out of necessity, and not because it's more efficient. Ex. One of the airports might not have a long enough runway to support non stop back to base, or there are altitude issues. (KL out of SXM comes to mind, or TK on IST-MEX-CUN-IST)


Why would KL have any issues with flying non-stop from SXM to AMS?


Short runway, combined with hotter temps, makes it hard/impossible to fly back to AMS without restrictions, especially on a twin engine aircraft.

KL789, operated by an A332, is operating AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS for this very reason.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
konkret
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 12, 2021 8:46 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
konkret wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Usually carriers do triangle routings out of necessity, and not because it's more efficient. Ex. One of the airports might not have a long enough runway to support non stop back to base, or there are altitude issues. (KL out of SXM comes to mind, or TK on IST-MEX-CUN-IST)


Why would KL have any issues with flying non-stop from SXM to AMS?


Short runway, combined with hotter temps, makes it hard/impossible to fly back to AMS without restrictions, especially on a twin engine aircraft.

KL789, operated by an A332, is operating AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS for this very reason.


Thanks for the information, I always thought that up until Hurricane Irma KLM was flying non stop to and from AMS and the change to the triangle routing had more to do with dwindling passenger numbers rather than technical restrictions.
 
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Polot
Posts: 11681
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 12, 2021 12:01 pm

konkret wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
konkret wrote:

Why would KL have any issues with flying non-stop from SXM to AMS?


Short runway, combined with hotter temps, makes it hard/impossible to fly back to AMS without restrictions, especially on a twin engine aircraft.

KL789, operated by an A332, is operating AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS for this very reason.


Thanks for the information, I always thought that up until Hurricane Irma KLM was flying non stop to and from AMS and the change to the triangle routing had more to do with dwindling passenger numbers rather than technical restrictions.

The runway/heat isn’t the biggest issue, it is terrain clearance (specifically the mountains near the airport) on takeoff that is the problem. Most twin engine aircraft loaded up for a TATL trip lack sufficient engine-out performance to safely clear them.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4293
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 12, 2021 2:51 pm

konkret wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Usually carriers do triangle routings out of necessity, and not because it's more efficient. Ex. One of the airports might not have a long enough runway to support non stop back to base, or there are altitude issues. (KL out of SXM comes to mind, or TK on IST-MEX-CUN-IST)


Why would KL have any issues with flying non-stop from SXM to AMS?


Short runway. Mountain in front of runway that needs to be cleared.
 
konkret
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/I

Wed May 12, 2021 3:10 pm

Polot wrote:
konkret wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:

Short runway, combined with hotter temps, makes it hard/impossible to fly back to AMS without restrictions, especially on a twin engine aircraft.

KL789, operated by an A332, is operating AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS for this very reason.


Thanks for the information, I always thought that up until Hurricane Irma KLM was flying non stop to and from AMS and the change to the triangle routing had more to do with dwindling passenger numbers rather than technical restrictions.

The runway/heat isn’t the biggest issue, it is terrain clearance (specifically the mountains near the airport) on takeoff that is the problem. Most twin engine aircraft loaded up for a TATL trip lack sufficient engine-out performance to safely clear them.


Doesn’t Air France face the same issue flying A332 non stop to CDG? Or do the additional 100nm to AMS makes the difference?
 
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Polot
Posts: 11681
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/I

Wed May 12, 2021 3:18 pm

konkret wrote:
Polot wrote:
konkret wrote:

Thanks for the information, I always thought that up until Hurricane Irma KLM was flying non stop to and from AMS and the change to the triangle routing had more to do with dwindling passenger numbers rather than technical restrictions.

The runway/heat isn’t the biggest issue, it is terrain clearance (specifically the mountains near the airport) on takeoff that is the problem. Most twin engine aircraft loaded up for a TATL trip lack sufficient engine-out performance to safely clear them.


Doesn’t Air France face the same issue flying A332 non stop to CDG? Or do the additional 100nm to AMS makes the difference?

Aside from the shorter distance AF’s A332s seat 44 less people than KL’s.
 
nicode
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 12, 2021 4:29 pm

Shouldn't be possible to do JFK-DCA instead of IAD, as this is a "domestic" flight ?

Polot wrote:
konkret wrote:
Polot wrote:
The runway/heat isn’t the biggest issue, it is terrain clearance (specifically the mountains near the airport) on takeoff that is the problem. Most twin engine aircraft loaded up for a TATL trip lack sufficient engine-out performance to safely clear them.


Doesn’t Air France face the same issue flying A332 non stop to CDG? Or do the additional 100nm to AMS makes the difference?

Aside from the shorter distance AF’s A332s seat 44 less people than KL’s.

And what about the 787 of TUI doing SXM-AMS ?
 
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Polot
Posts: 11681
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Wed May 12, 2021 4:38 pm

nicode wrote:
Shouldn't be possible to do JFK-DCA instead of IAD, as this is a "domestic" flight ?

DCA is slot controlled. No chance on getting that when they can’t carry JFK-DCA local traffic.

nicode wrote:
And what about the 787 of TUI doing SXM-AMS ?

Similar to KL TUI flew AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS.
 
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AirKevin
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Air Senegal to begin DSS-JFK/IAD

Thu May 13, 2021 4:41 pm

nicode wrote:
Shouldn't be possible to do JFK-DCA instead of IAD, as this is a "domestic" flight ?

With an A330?
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