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jayspilot
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu May 13, 2021 6:46 pm

Your totally correct no Cancun... The main point of the post is the large Puerto Rician local market visiting family and travel/leisure market to PR
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu May 13, 2021 8:41 pm

airlineworker wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:
catiii wrote:
You question their expertise?


Starting an airline during a global pandemic isn't exactly an expert move...


The airline was planned before the pandemic. Unless the virus gets worse, passengers are returning in great numbers. I don't see HVN-BUR anytime soon, too far for a 737-700. UA years back had regular weight restrictions on 737 HVN-ORD flights. Florida is the way to go and keep area people from going to other airports.

UA flies a 737-700 on SNA-EWR nonstop as well as SNA-HNL. BUR-HVN shouldn't be a problem. 737 NGs have some amazing performance especially the 700.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
nine4nine
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu May 13, 2021 10:55 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:

Starting an airline during a global pandemic isn't exactly an expert move...


The airline was planned before the pandemic. Unless the virus gets worse, passengers are returning in great numbers. I don't see HVN-BUR anytime soon, too far for a 737-700. UA years back had regular weight restrictions on 737 HVN-ORD flights. Florida is the way to go and keep area people from going to other airports.

UA flies a 737-700 on SNA-EWR nonstop as well as SNA-HNL. BUR-HVN shouldn't be a problem. 737 NGs have some amazing performance especially the 700.


And these Avelo 700’s are ex-DL birds with the highest performance package. HotRods!
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
airlineworker
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu May 13, 2021 11:07 pm

I think Avelo will have it's hands full with Florida flights.
 
catiii
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Fri May 14, 2021 12:26 am

nine4nine wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
airlineworker wrote:

The airline was planned before the pandemic. Unless the virus gets worse, passengers are returning in great numbers. I don't see HVN-BUR anytime soon, too far for a 737-700. UA years back had regular weight restrictions on 737 HVN-ORD flights. Florida is the way to go and keep area people from going to other airports.

UA flies a 737-700 on SNA-EWR nonstop as well as SNA-HNL. BUR-HVN shouldn't be a problem. 737 NGs have some amazing performance especially the 700.


And these Avelo 700’s are ex-DL birds with the highest performance package. HotRods!


No, theyre ex WN.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 3:09 am

I feel Florida flights will be first, but will it be TPA or PIE, MCO or SFB? FLL or MIA?
 
BlueBaller
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 5:19 am

TWA772LR wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
aviationjunky wrote:

Starting an airline during a global pandemic isn't exactly an expert move...


The airline was planned before the pandemic. Unless the virus gets worse, passengers are returning in great numbers. I don't see HVN-BUR anytime soon, too far for a 737-700. UA years back had regular weight restrictions on 737 HVN-ORD flights. Florida is the way to go and keep area people from going to other airports.

UA flies a 737-700 on SNA-EWR nonstop as well as SNA-HNL. BUR-HVN shouldn't be a problem. 737 NGs have some amazing performance especially the 700.


You’re quoting eastbound flights which average 45 minutes less block time than westbound flights, which the OP mentioned with HVN-BUR. That’s about 6000 lbs extra gas you need to tack on. 6000 lbs of additional weight. Also SNA-HNL don’t have nearly the same average headwind component as a domestic transcontinental.

With JetBlue covering BDL-LAX as well as all of metro New York to SoCal, including BUR, Avelo would be a little outside of its mind to attempt HVN transcons... again if the plane could even do it with a load greater than 65% for performance considerations. The minute B6 puts an A220 on HPN-LAX this conversation officially ends.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 1:26 pm

BlueBaller wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
airlineworker wrote:

The airline was planned before the pandemic. Unless the virus gets worse, passengers are returning in great numbers. I don't see HVN-BUR anytime soon, too far for a 737-700. UA years back had regular weight restrictions on 737 HVN-ORD flights. Florida is the way to go and keep area people from going to other airports.

UA flies a 737-700 on SNA-EWR nonstop as well as SNA-HNL. BUR-HVN shouldn't be a problem. 737 NGs have some amazing performance especially the 700.


You’re quoting eastbound flights which average 45 minutes less block time than westbound flights, which the OP mentioned with HVN-BUR. That’s about 6000 lbs extra gas you need to tack on. 6000 lbs of additional weight. Also SNA-HNL don’t have nearly the same average headwind component as a domestic transcontinental.

With JetBlue covering BDL-LAX as well as all of metro New York to SoCal, including BUR, Avelo would be a little outside of its mind to attempt HVN transcons... again if the plane could even do it with a load greater than 65% for performance considerations. The minute B6 puts an A220 on HPN-LAX this conversation officially ends.

Even still, HVN is planning on extending the runway and 700s have good performance. Physically it can be done, economically is another question.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
catiii
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 2:06 pm

airlineworker wrote:
I think Avelo will have it's hands full with Florida flights.


Why? What’s so hard about flying to Florida that they’ll have their hands full?
 
mm320cap
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 2:51 pm

I remember well flying the 737-500 into HVN during a snow storm “back in the day”. It’s a challenge for sure. The -700 will have no problem performance wise there, but the pilots will earn their money.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 4:32 pm

catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
I think Avelo will have it's hands full with Florida flights.


Why? What’s so hard about flying to Florida that they’ll have their hands full?


He means everybody’s drinking this transcon California Koolaid right now, meanwhile it’ll serve Avelo better to just concentrate on the short haul, higher frequency stuff
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 6:35 pm

shamrock137 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Favre4 wrote:
EX - DELTA BIRDS

Would make sense. DL optioned them for take off performance so they would work well out of HVN.


What type of options were available to boost the performance on the -700?


The -700 is about 20,000 pounds lighter than a 737-800, IIRC. So you could say that the -700 is already “boosted.”
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Sat May 15, 2021 6:45 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
shamrock137 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Would make sense. DL optioned them for take off performance so they would work well out of HVN.


What type of options were available to boost the performance on the -700?


The -700 is about 20,000 pounds lighter than a 737-800, IIRC. So you could say that the -700 is already “boosted.”

viewtopic.php?t=762415

Theirs had a lot more thrust too.
 
tichydev
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:33 pm

SWADawg wrote:
737-700’s eh? Wonder where they are getting those from. WN has been returning quite a few to lessors lately. Most were going to United, but maybe a few are heading to Avelo. I actually think the -700 would be a more appropriate Aircraft for Avelo in a lot of the small markets their serving.


From what I've heard they're coming from Delta where others have suggested they are "well optioned" for short field operations. I'm not familiar enough with the variants of the 700 series to have any clue what that means other than maybe different engine options? It certainly would make sense though seeing as they're acquiring these aircraft specifically for HVN. DL did operate their 737-700s from EYW in the past.

As others have also commented 147 seats does not seem like a crowded cabin for the -700. If Avelo is really going for a product that offers reasonable upgrades for incrementally priced legroom upgrades that could go over very well and market to passengers who otherwise wouldn't typically fly on a ULCC (myself included). While I havent flown on them yet, I already seem to get the impression they're offering more than a traditional "Nickle and dime" or "no frills" product like other ULCCs. Their really seems to be options for purchasing a pretty good product for an extra couple dollars on top of your base fare. Having something different than the other ULCCs at BDL/PVD will make them marketable beyond HVN's already significant catchment area.

All these years of stagnation and now New Haven has something that Bradley has wanted for decades: an airline base... BDL execs must be fuming and we love to see it!

* Disclaimer on that: I do frequently fly from BDL and am equally glad to see their success. It is a fantastic airport. However, the CAA's and state of CT's strong arming of HVN needs to end. It's comical that the CAA is now pushing their agenda of "coordination" with an airport that has a new airline with every right and almost an obligation to offer a product that can compete with their counterparts up north. I'm glad to see Breeze bringing some new outside the box routes to BDL and quelling the BDR talks. Looking at their business plans I think New Haven wound up with the right player here.
 
tichydev
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:36 pm

BlueBaller wrote:
catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
I think Avelo will have it's hands full with Florida flights.


Why? What’s so hard about flying to Florida that they’ll have their hands full?


He means everybody’s drinking this transcon California Koolaid right now, meanwhile it’ll serve Avelo better to just concentrate on the short haul, higher frequency stuff


Transcon would be hard from HVN with the current runway even on the -700 and its not very conducive to the ULCC business model to begin with. If we see any connection to BUR in the future it would likely be with a stop in Houston (or Dallas or Denver etc...).
 
catiii
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:28 pm

tichydev wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
737-700’s eh? Wonder where they are getting those from. WN has been returning quite a few to lessors lately. Most were going to United, but maybe a few are heading to Avelo. I actually think the -700 would be a more appropriate Aircraft for Avelo in a lot of the small markets their serving.


From what I've heard they're coming from Delta


They're coming from WN.
 
nine4nine
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:45 pm

catiii wrote:
tichydev wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
737-700’s eh? Wonder where they are getting those from. WN has been returning quite a few to lessors lately. Most were going to United, but maybe a few are heading to Avelo. I actually think the -700 would be a more appropriate Aircraft for Avelo in a lot of the small markets their serving.


From what I've heard they're coming from Delta


They're coming from WN.



I’ve heard the first 3 are ex-DL birds as well and are being outfitted currently at SBD.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
32andBelow
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:53 pm

tichydev wrote:
BlueBaller wrote:
catiii wrote:

Why? What’s so hard about flying to Florida that they’ll have their hands full?


He means everybody’s drinking this transcon California Koolaid right now, meanwhile it’ll serve Avelo better to just concentrate on the short haul, higher frequency stuff


Transcon would be hard from HVN with the current runway even on the -700 and its not very conducive to the ULCC business model to begin with. If we see any connection to BUR in the future it would likely be with a stop in Houston (or Dallas or Denver etc...).

Having 2 bases 3000 miles apart with no connections is gonna be a nightmare for reliability and spares. They need to get their network connected ASAP
 
catiii
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:22 pm

nine4nine wrote:
catiii wrote:
tichydev wrote:

From what I've heard they're coming from Delta


They're coming from WN.



I’ve heard the first 3 are ex-DL birds as well and are being outfitted currently at SBD.


Again:

socalspotter wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
737-700’s eh? Wonder where they are getting those from. WN has been returning quite a few to lessors lately. Most were going to United, but maybe a few are heading to Avelo. I actually think the -700 would be a more appropriate Aircraft for Avelo in a lot of the small markets their serving.

N921WN (737-7H4) in fresh Avelo colors is sitting in SBD, just got painted at AeroPro.
 
nine4nine
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:24 pm

catiii wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
catiii wrote:

They're coming from WN.



I’ve heard the first 3 are ex-DL birds as well and are being outfitted currently at SBD.


Again:

socalspotter wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
737-700’s eh? Wonder where they are getting those from. WN has been returning quite a few to lessors lately. Most were going to United, but maybe a few are heading to Avelo. I actually think the -700 would be a more appropriate Aircraft for Avelo in a lot of the small markets their serving.

N921WN (737-7H4) in fresh Avelo colors is sitting in SBD, just got painted at AeroPro.



:thumbsup:
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:08 am

nine4nine wrote:
catiii wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


I’ve heard the first 3 are ex-DL birds as well and are being outfitted currently at SBD.


Again:

socalspotter wrote:
N921WN (737-7H4) in fresh Avelo colors is sitting in SBD, just got painted at AeroPro.



:thumbsup:


Yet, no pics. I call this a bluff.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:48 am

32andBelow wrote:
tichydev wrote:
BlueBaller wrote:

He means everybody’s drinking this transcon California Koolaid right now, meanwhile it’ll serve Avelo better to just concentrate on the short haul, higher frequency stuff


Transcon would be hard from HVN with the current runway even on the -700 and its not very conducive to the ULCC business model to begin with. If we see any connection to BUR in the future it would likely be with a stop in Houston (or Dallas or Denver etc...).

Having 2 bases 3000 miles apart with no connections is gonna be a nightmare for reliability and spares. They need to get their network connected ASAP


Avelo is a point to point airline, no hubs. Connecting with BUR is not a priority as there is a large selection of cities on the east coast to keep the 3 737-700's busy at HVN. Still waiting for the HVN schedule.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:54 am

32andBelow wrote:
tichydev wrote:
BlueBaller wrote:

He means everybody’s drinking this transcon California Koolaid right now, meanwhile it’ll serve Avelo better to just concentrate on the short haul, higher frequency stuff


Transcon would be hard from HVN with the current runway even on the -700 and its not very conducive to the ULCC business model to begin with. If we see any connection to BUR in the future it would likely be with a stop in Houston (or Dallas or Denver etc...).

Having 2 bases 3000 miles apart with no connections is gonna be a nightmare for reliability and spares. They need to get their network connected ASAP

Really? They will be two different fleets and crews (737-700 for HVN and 737-800 for BUR), which would be unlikely to sub for each other on opposite coasts.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
32andBelow
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:45 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
tichydev wrote:

Transcon would be hard from HVN with the current runway even on the -700 and its not very conducive to the ULCC business model to begin with. If we see any connection to BUR in the future it would likely be with a stop in Houston (or Dallas or Denver etc...).

Having 2 bases 3000 miles apart with no connections is gonna be a nightmare for reliability and spares. They need to get their network connected ASAP

Really? They will be two different fleets and crews (737-700 for HVN and 737-800 for BUR), which would be unlikely to sub for each other on opposite coasts.

You gotta have 2 maintenance bases. 2 parts stashes. Nothing can sub for anything. And if you have a spare engine where will it live?

Is each base going to have a reserve aircraft to cover for mx? What about reserve crews. Can’t move crews around easily so you’ll need more reserve crews.

If you have a meltdown where you lose 2 aircrafts out of one base then you either cancel most of your schedule of you deadhead an airplane 6 hours
 
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usxguy
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:33 am

I have a feeling that Andrew may be pulling a rabbit out of my head, and I'd have to think that 2 daily HVN-DCA might actually be on the radar.... there's plenty of money in nearby Westchester/Greenwich/Stamford/Norwalk and the train is a bit of a pain for DC, that I think it would work...
xx
 
tichydev
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:16 pm

catiii wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
catiii wrote:

They're coming from WN.



I’ve heard the first 3 are ex-DL birds as well and are being outfitted currently at SBD.


Again:

socalspotter wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
737-700’s eh? Wonder where they are getting those from. WN has been returning quite a few to lessors lately. Most were going to United, but maybe a few are heading to Avelo. I actually think the -700 would be a more appropriate Aircraft for Avelo in a lot of the small markets their serving.

N921WN (737-7H4) in fresh Avelo colors is sitting in SBD, just got painted at AeroPro.


Interesting... 3 of DL's 10 737-700s were also ferried to SBD. N306DQ, N309DE and N310DE all still registered to DAL. The remainders were ferried to storage in AZ and AR. Eagerly awaiting pics of one. WN and DL both operated their 700's from EYW and both carriers had them fitted with short field performance improvements such as VGs even though the -700 has fairly good performance to begin with.
 
nkops
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:22 pm

usxguy wrote:
I have a feeling that Andrew may be pulling a rabbit out of my head, and I'd have to think that 2 daily HVN-DCA might actually be on the radar.... there's plenty of money in nearby Westchester/Greenwich/Stamford/Norwalk and the train is a bit of a pain for DC, that I think it would work...


DCA doesn't seem like their kind of airport though.. what would be considered secondary around there?
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
tichydev
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:13 pm

New info on the current terminal temporary expansion
From Tweed Facts:
"
The expansion for Avelo will focus on the ground level gates, as we predicted. The current Gate 1/2 holdroom will be expanded into the current baggage claim area with seating for up to 172 passengers the baggage claim and rental cars will be relocated to the ground floor of the old terminal/admin building.

An additional holdroom (gate area) will be constructed from modular buildings between the current terminal and old terminal. This section will feature 2 new gates and seating for 144 passengers. This new space will also feature additional restrooms and new offices for AA employees and TSA.

An additional modular addon will be constructed on the north side of the terminal adding 8 new check-in counters (of which Avelo will use 6) allowing the addition of a second TSA line for quicker processing!

American Airlines will keep the mezzanine level gate(s) and jet-bridge which appears to remain the same size.

Additional parking will be added and modular buildings to support the Avelo base with parts storage and company offices.

The packet can be found here: https://flytweed.com/wp-content/uploads ... 2021-1.pdf
"
 
tichydev
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:01 pm

nkops wrote:
usxguy wrote:
I have a feeling that Andrew may be pulling a rabbit out of my head, and I'd have to think that 2 daily HVN-DCA might actually be on the radar.... there's plenty of money in nearby Westchester/Greenwich/Stamford/Norwalk and the train is a bit of a pain for DC, that I think it would work...


DCA doesn't seem like their kind of airport though.. what would be considered secondary around there?


I agree. Unless they pull the new-entry carrier preference card to get slots at DCA. I'm a big champion of HVN-DCA but I just don't see it being wildly successful with a 737. Especially without the backing of the AA hub connections. In a New Haven Register article today Levy talks about DC and Chicago though they do both have allot of interest from the biotech sector in New Haven as well as UTC, Sikorsky, Electric Boat etc.

I have to admit it would be interesting to see what attention that would draw from other carriers. Id love to see American get defensive and respond with DCA (and for the love of god give us back CLT!) or United enter if American packs up and runs. As of now American retains the mezzanine gates at HVN and it seems like the sole use of the jetbridge. However, their schedule doesn't show any flights beyond 10/1/21 and it's not looking good.

Activity breeds activity at small airports like this; especially with a market that far exceeds the current product.
 
jco613
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:57 pm

tichydev wrote:
nkops wrote:
usxguy wrote:
I have a feeling that Andrew may be pulling a rabbit out of my head, and I'd have to think that 2 daily HVN-DCA might actually be on the radar.... there's plenty of money in nearby Westchester/Greenwich/Stamford/Norwalk and the train is a bit of a pain for DC, that I think it would work...


DCA doesn't seem like their kind of airport though.. what would be considered secondary around there?


I agree. Unless they pull the new-entry carrier preference card to get slots at DCA. I'm a big champion of HVN-DCA but I just don't see it being wildly successful with a 737. Especially without the backing of the AA hub connections. In a New Haven Register article today Levy talks about DC and Chicago though they do both have allot of interest from the biotech sector in New Haven as well as UTC, Sikorsky, Electric Boat etc.

I have to admit it would be interesting to see what attention that would draw from other carriers. Id love to see American get defensive and respond with DCA (and for the love of god give us back CLT!) or United enter if American packs up and runs. As of now American retains the mezzanine gates at HVN and it seems like the sole use of the jetbridge. However, their schedule doesn't show any flights beyond 10/1/21 and it's not looking good.

Activity breeds activity at small airports like this; especially with a market that far exceeds the current product.

I could see DL coming back to fill the void to ATL and DTW as well. they have always been the CT Legacy carrier, so they could easily tap into the FF base.

The bottom line is that biotech, the companies you mentioned, and Yale will always demand legacy service from HVN, so even if AA was to back away, someone would come in. I can't even tell you how many times I Ubered people from HVN who were going to speak at Yale, and none of them were coming from Florida leisure destinations!
 
bluecrew
Posts: 74
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:07 am

jco613 wrote:
tichydev wrote:
nkops wrote:

DCA doesn't seem like their kind of airport though.. what would be considered secondary around there?


I agree. Unless they pull the new-entry carrier preference card to get slots at DCA. I'm a big champion of HVN-DCA but I just don't see it being wildly successful with a 737. Especially without the backing of the AA hub connections. In a New Haven Register article today Levy talks about DC and Chicago though they do both have allot of interest from the biotech sector in New Haven as well as UTC, Sikorsky, Electric Boat etc.

I have to admit it would be interesting to see what attention that would draw from other carriers. Id love to see American get defensive and respond with DCA (and for the love of god give us back CLT!) or United enter if American packs up and runs. As of now American retains the mezzanine gates at HVN and it seems like the sole use of the jetbridge. However, their schedule doesn't show any flights beyond 10/1/21 and it's not looking good.

Activity breeds activity at small airports like this; especially with a market that far exceeds the current product.

I could see DL coming back to fill the void to ATL and DTW as well. they have always been the CT Legacy carrier, so they could easily tap into the FF base.

The bottom line is that biotech, the companies you mentioned, and Yale will always demand legacy service from HVN, so even if AA was to back away, someone would come in. I can't even tell you how many times I Ubered people from HVN who were going to speak at Yale, and none of them were coming from Florida leisure destinations!

One university and some startups just cannot generate the O&D necessary to justify service to a lot of the destinations those people would fly from.

Look at San Jose. It's surrounded by a world class international airport (SFO, like JFK), and a regional airport that (with some stops) can get you anywhere (OAK, like LGA). They carve out a great regional market with Southwest, and some international O&D, but it's also a gargantuan place chocked full of every tech startup that matters, most established tech companies, and a very sizeable population in SJC and south.

HVN has.... literally none of that. Transcons or traditional service to large cities would be a nightmare and Avelo would just bleed money. Look at what happened to JetBlue at Long Beach...
 
PanzerPowner
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:14 am

32andBelow wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Having 2 bases 3000 miles apart with no connections is gonna be a nightmare for reliability and spares. They need to get their network connected ASAP

Really? They will be two different fleets and crews (737-700 for HVN and 737-800 for BUR), which would be unlikely to sub for each other on opposite coasts.

You gotta have 2 maintenance bases. 2 parts stashes. Nothing can sub for anything. And if you have a spare engine where will it live?

Is each base going to have a reserve aircraft to cover for mx? What about reserve crews. Can’t move crews around easily so you’ll need more reserve crews.

If you have a meltdown where you lose 2 aircrafts out of one base then you either cancel most of your schedule of you deadhead an airplane 6 hours


I just flew Avelo last weekend and I had this exact experience. Their late evening bank was heavily delayed with two aircraft stuck outside of their Burbank hub leaving a flight to Medford and Redding stuck for about fourty minutes before their airframes arrived. And from word of mouth it wasn't even maintenance, some sort of passenger delay at the airport. If they were to have a maintenance issue I would have to say it would most definitely have to be a hard cancellation for the outbound and it's return.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
jco613
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:15 am

bluecrew wrote:
jco613 wrote:
tichydev wrote:

I agree. Unless they pull the new-entry carrier preference card to get slots at DCA. I'm a big champion of HVN-DCA but I just don't see it being wildly successful with a 737. Especially without the backing of the AA hub connections. In a New Haven Register article today Levy talks about DC and Chicago though they do both have allot of interest from the biotech sector in New Haven as well as UTC, Sikorsky, Electric Boat etc.

I have to admit it would be interesting to see what attention that would draw from other carriers. Id love to see American get defensive and respond with DCA (and for the love of god give us back CLT!) or United enter if American packs up and runs. As of now American retains the mezzanine gates at HVN and it seems like the sole use of the jetbridge. However, their schedule doesn't show any flights beyond 10/1/21 and it's not looking good.

Activity breeds activity at small airports like this; especially with a market that far exceeds the current product.

I could see DL coming back to fill the void to ATL and DTW as well. they have always been the CT Legacy carrier, so they could easily tap into the FF base.

The bottom line is that biotech, the companies you mentioned, and Yale will always demand legacy service from HVN, so even if AA was to back away, someone would come in. I can't even tell you how many times I Ubered people from HVN who were going to speak at Yale, and none of them were coming from Florida leisure destinations!

One university and some startups just cannot generate the O&D necessary to justify service to a lot of the destinations those people would fly from.

Look at San Jose. It's surrounded by a world class international airport (SFO, like JFK), and a regional airport that (with some stops) can get you anywhere (OAK, like LGA). They carve out a great regional market with Southwest, and some international O&D, but it's also a gargantuan place chocked full of every tech startup that matters, most established tech companies, and a very sizeable population in SJC and south.

HVN has.... literally none of that. Transcons or traditional service to large cities would be a nightmare and Avelo would just bleed money. Look at what happened to JetBlue at Long Beach...


OK, step back here. I am in NO way suggesting that an airline make HVN a transcon hub. All I am saying is Yale pays some good money to fly in some big name people to work at/lecture at their university. Thus, a legacy carrier and more specifically, a first class product, are needed. I could see Yale and the companies in the area putting together an incentive package a la CVG and RDU (although not to that level obviously) so as not to lose that domestic and international connectivity, be it through AA or another carrier. All I was suggesting was that Avelo is not going to be the airline of choice for those customers. There needs to be a legacy option in addition to Avelo at HVN in order for the airport to survive.
 
catiii
Posts: 3887
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:46 am

jco613 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
jco613 wrote:
I could see DL coming back to fill the void to ATL and DTW as well. they have always been the CT Legacy carrier, so they could easily tap into the FF base.

The bottom line is that biotech, the companies you mentioned, and Yale will always demand legacy service from HVN, so even if AA was to back away, someone would come in. I can't even tell you how many times I Ubered people from HVN who were going to speak at Yale, and none of them were coming from Florida leisure destinations!

One university and some startups just cannot generate the O&D necessary to justify service to a lot of the destinations those people would fly from.

Look at San Jose. It's surrounded by a world class international airport (SFO, like JFK), and a regional airport that (with some stops) can get you anywhere (OAK, like LGA). They carve out a great regional market with Southwest, and some international O&D, but it's also a gargantuan place chocked full of every tech startup that matters, most established tech companies, and a very sizeable population in SJC and south.

HVN has.... literally none of that. Transcons or traditional service to large cities would be a nightmare and Avelo would just bleed money. Look at what happened to JetBlue at Long Beach...


OK, step back here. I am in NO way suggesting that an airline make HVN a transcon hub. All I am saying is Yale pays some good money to fly in some big name people to work at/lecture at their university. Thus, a legacy carrier and more specifically, a first class product, are needed. I could see Yale and the companies in the area putting together an incentive package a la CVG and RDU (although not to that level obviously) so as not to lose that domestic and international connectivity, be it through AA or another carrier. All I was suggesting was that Avelo is not going to be the airline of choice for those customers. There needs to be a legacy option in addition to Avelo at HVN in order for the airport to survive.


Right because that rationale worked so well for AA, UA, DL when they flew there…
 
airlineworker
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:15 am

catiii wrote:
jco613 wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
One university and some startups just cannot generate the O&D necessary to justify service to a lot of the destinations those people would fly from.

Look at San Jose. It's surrounded by a world class international airport (SFO, like JFK), and a regional airport that (with some stops) can get you anywhere (OAK, like LGA). They carve out a great regional market with Southwest, and some international O&D, but it's also a gargantuan place chocked full of every tech startup that matters, most established tech companies, and a very sizeable population in SJC and south.

HVN has.... literally none of that. Transcons or traditional service to large cities would be a nightmare and Avelo would just bleed money. Look at what happened to JetBlue at Long Beach...


OK, step back here. I am in NO way suggesting that an airline make HVN a transcon hub. All I am saying is Yale pays some good money to fly in some big name people to work at/lecture at their university. Thus, a legacy carrier and more specifically, a first class product, are needed. I could see Yale and the companies in the area putting together an incentive package a la CVG and RDU (although not to that level obviously) so as not to lose that domestic and international connectivity, be it through AA or another carrier. All I was suggesting was that Avelo is not going to be the airline of choice for those customers. There needs to be a legacy option in addition to Avelo at HVN in order for the airport to survive.


Right because that rationale worked so well for AA, UA, DL when they flew there…


Back when UA and DL flew at HVN, the runway issue was much worse back then. Over the years trees had grown and interfered with the flight path to runway 20, thus the displaced threshold and that also effected runway 2 departures. NW proposed twice to offer HVN-DTW flights, first with a DC-9 and then a CRJ. It was reported that at times only 47 seats could be used when departing on runway 2. On one UA 737 to ORD, 40 passengers had to be deplaned and there were many other weight restricted flights over the almost 5 years that UA flew the route. Same with DL to CVG. Since that time, 2 1000 foot overruns were added, a road at the northern end of the runway was rerouted, many trees cut and utility poles repositioned. AA has shown E-175's and CRJ-700's can work off HVN's runway. The planned extension of the runway will finally remove the effects of the short runway. There is a great catchment area to draw from and the state of Connecticut's effort to deny it's growth was finally stopped when the SCOTUS ruled the state law freezing HVN's runway at 5600 feet was not valid. BDL is not positioned to serve the entire state being a few miles from the Massachusetts boarder and both New Haven and Bridgeport are in HVN's market area. Even going back to the 70's, EA flights to DCA on 727's were limited to 60 seats. totally unworkable. The runway has always been HVN's downfall and not the market. Getting Avelo is good but HVN will need airline hub service to be successful. AA loads of late have been very good with a few sold out flights so I am hoping AA will stay and follow it's plan of last July to start two daily flights to CLT, PHL is a weak hub compared to CLT. Look at the amount of seats AA is offering on BDL-CLT flights compared to PHL, it's about 3 times as many seats to CLT compared to PHL.
 
tichydev
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:53 am

bluecrew wrote:
jco613 wrote:
tichydev wrote:

I agree. Unless they pull the new-entry carrier preference card to get slots at DCA. I'm a big champion of HVN-DCA but I just don't see it being wildly successful with a 737. Especially without the backing of the AA hub connections. In a New Haven Register article today Levy talks about DC and Chicago though they do both have allot of interest from the biotech sector in New Haven as well as UTC, Sikorsky, Electric Boat etc.

I have to admit it would be interesting to see what attention that would draw from other carriers. Id love to see American get defensive and respond with DCA (and for the love of god give us back CLT!) or United enter if American packs up and runs. As of now American retains the mezzanine gates at HVN and it seems like the sole use of the jetbridge. However, their schedule doesn't show any flights beyond 10/1/21 and it's not looking good.

Activity breeds activity at small airports like this; especially with a market that far exceeds the current product.

I could see DL coming back to fill the void to ATL and DTW as well. they have always been the CT Legacy carrier, so they could easily tap into the FF base.

The bottom line is that biotech, the companies you mentioned, and Yale will always demand legacy service from HVN, so even if AA was to back away, someone would come in. I can't even tell you how many times I Ubered people from HVN who were going to speak at Yale, and none of them were coming from Florida leisure destinations!

One university and some startups just cannot generate the O&D necessary to justify service to a lot of the destinations those people would fly from.

Look at San Jose. It's surrounded by a world class international airport (SFO, like JFK), and a regional airport that (with some stops) can get you anywhere (OAK, like LGA). They carve out a great regional market with Southwest, and some international O&D, but it's also a gargantuan place chocked full of every tech startup that matters, most established tech companies, and a very sizeable population in SJC and south.

HVN has.... literally none of that. Transcons or traditional service to large cities would be a nightmare and Avelo would just bleed money. Look at what happened to JetBlue at Long Beach...


I would beg to differ on your assessment of the business market in New Haven. Not just one university. We have Yale, Quinipiac, UNH and SCSU with Fairfield University, Sacred Heart, University of Bridgeport, Wesleyan University, the US Coast Guard Academy and Connecticut college in close driving distance just to name a few…

Businesses? Sure there are a few startups that have come out of New Havens biotech incubator space but several of the large biopharma players maintain a large presence in New Haven. Phyzer, Alexion/Astra Zeneca, Medtronic, and many others. Several Biotech players are also scattered across the shoreline in towns like Guilford (Rothberg Institute and associated Companies). Tack on Sikorsky, Electric Boat the Sub Base, Mohegan/Foxwoods, and all the UTC employees that live on the shoreline and you’ve got quite a demand for business travel.
 
catiii
Posts: 3887
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:20 am

airlineworker wrote:
catiii wrote:
jco613 wrote:

OK, step back here. I am in NO way suggesting that an airline make HVN a transcon hub. All I am saying is Yale pays some good money to fly in some big name people to work at/lecture at their university. Thus, a legacy carrier and more specifically, a first class product, are needed. I could see Yale and the companies in the area putting together an incentive package a la CVG and RDU (although not to that level obviously) so as not to lose that domestic and international connectivity, be it through AA or another carrier. All I was suggesting was that Avelo is not going to be the airline of choice for those customers. There needs to be a legacy option in addition to Avelo at HVN in order for the airport to survive.


Right because that rationale worked so well for AA, UA, DL when they flew there…


Back when UA and DL flew at HVN, the runway issue was much worse back then. Over the years trees had grown and interfered with the flight path to runway 20, thus the displaced threshold and that also effected runway 2 departures. NW proposed twice to offer HVN-DTW flights, first with a DC-9 and then a CRJ. It was reported that at times only 47 seats could be used when departing on runway 2. On one UA 737 to ORD, 40 passengers had to be deplaned and there were many other weight restricted flights over the almost 5 years that UA flew the route. Same with DL to CVG. Since that time, 2 1000 foot overruns were added, a road at the northern end of the runway was rerouted, many trees cut and utility poles repositioned. AA has shown E-175's and CRJ-700's can work off HVN's runway. The planned extension of the runway will finally remove the effects of the short runway. There is a great catchment area to draw from and the state of Connecticut's effort to deny it's growth was finally stopped when the SCOTUS ruled the state law freezing HVN's runway at 5600 feet was not valid. BDL is not positioned to serve the entire state being a few miles from the Massachusetts boarder and both New Haven and Bridgeport are in HVN's market area. Even going back to the 70's, EA flights to DCA on 727's were limited to 60 seats. totally unworkable. The runway has always been HVN's downfall and not the market. Getting Avelo is good but HVN will need airline hub service to be successful. AA loads of late have been very good with a few sold out flights so I am hoping AA will stay and follow it's plan of last July to start two daily flights to CLT, PHL is a weak hub compared to CLT. Look at the amount of seats AA is offering on BDL-CLT flights compared to PHL, it's about 3 times as many seats to CLT compared to PHL.


You missed the point. The runway was never an issue. Nothing was stopping UA or DL from putting an RJ with an F product into HVN to ORD, DTW, ATL, or IAD to connect onward F or J traffic (or AA to ORD). The E75s to CLT that AA were flying before the pandemic were not shooting the lights out demand wise connecting onward traffic. Same with the E75s to PHL, which is not a weak hub for onward traffic to the south, midwest, and west if you follow the premise that the post I was responding to believed.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11883
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:46 am

catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
catiii wrote:

Right because that rationale worked so well for AA, UA, DL when they flew there…


Back when UA and DL flew at HVN, the runway issue was much worse back then. Over the years trees had grown and interfered with the flight path to runway 20, thus the displaced threshold and that also effected runway 2 departures. NW proposed twice to offer HVN-DTW flights, first with a DC-9 and then a CRJ. It was reported that at times only 47 seats could be used when departing on runway 2. On one UA 737 to ORD, 40 passengers had to be deplaned and there were many other weight restricted flights over the almost 5 years that UA flew the route. Same with DL to CVG. Since that time, 2 1000 foot overruns were added, a road at the northern end of the runway was rerouted, many trees cut and utility poles repositioned. AA has shown E-175's and CRJ-700's can work off HVN's runway. The planned extension of the runway will finally remove the effects of the short runway. There is a great catchment area to draw from and the state of Connecticut's effort to deny it's growth was finally stopped when the SCOTUS ruled the state law freezing HVN's runway at 5600 feet was not valid. BDL is not positioned to serve the entire state being a few miles from the Massachusetts boarder and both New Haven and Bridgeport are in HVN's market area. Even going back to the 70's, EA flights to DCA on 727's were limited to 60 seats. totally unworkable. The runway has always been HVN's downfall and not the market. Getting Avelo is good but HVN will need airline hub service to be successful. AA loads of late have been very good with a few sold out flights so I am hoping AA will stay and follow it's plan of last July to start two daily flights to CLT, PHL is a weak hub compared to CLT. Look at the amount of seats AA is offering on BDL-CLT flights compared to PHL, it's about 3 times as many seats to CLT compared to PHL.


You missed the point. The runway was never an issue. Nothing was stopping UA or DL from putting an RJ with an F product into HVN to ORD, DTW, ATL, or IAD to connect onward F or J traffic (or AA to ORD). The E75s to CLT that AA were flying before the pandemic were not shooting the lights out demand wise connecting onward traffic. Same with the E75s to PHL, which is not a weak hub for onward traffic to the south, midwest, and west if you follow the premise that the post I was responding to believed.

AA, UA, and DL are also not ULCCs with ULCC fares. In fact they have a tendency to do the opposite at small airports with limited competition like HVN and charge you up the wazoo.

I don’t know enough about New Haven and the surrounding to say if this will be successful or not, but like Breeze (and Allegiant) Avelo’s plan is to use low fares to stimulate traffic and capture demand that would normally drive to the closest major airport in the region with lower fares
 
airlineworker
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:48 am

The runway was always the issue, it led to many diversions along with weight restricted flights. The flights I took the recently were well supported and the HVN-CLT flights were only on Saturday, one of the slowest travel days of the week. PHL is a weak hub, both BDL and PVD have about three times as many seats to CLT as compared to PHL. It was only last year that the tall tree to the north had been taken down, that tree greatly affected airline operations, To say that Hartford has a market for air travel and New Haven does not as some anti HVN folks have said is nonsense.
When people think of HVN, images of Dash-8's, Twin otters and the like surface, it was like 3rd world flying. Old habits are hard to break and rumors of how dangerous HVN is have caused some to shy away from using HVN. The state and BDL fought HVN and it's quest for a longer runway tooth and nail as some of BDL's traffic is from the New Haven area.
Having only one jet bridge and a small terminal has not helped either. Bottom line HVN has a similar catchment area as does BDL but the infrastructure is lacking.
LCC's seem the be the fastest growing segment of the airline scene lately and Avelo should do well providing the virus does not makes a second appearance. In the past I flew on full UA 737's to HVN so the market is there despite what some say. Why UA and DL have stayed away, I have my own theory but I will keep that to myself for now. If UA and DL were to come to HVN, it will have a direct effect on BDL and that explains why the state took the runway case to the SCOTUS. BDR and GON have lost airline service years ago and only HVN stands in the way of BDL becoming the only commercial airport with airline service in the state. Not too hard to see the states incentive to quell HVN.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5953
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:09 pm

A few posters have suggested bridge routes between HVN and BUR bases. There is one unserved airport in a major metropolitan area well positioned to serve as a bridge city and possibly a future third base. It has a functional, ready-to-go terminal: GYY.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer Night's Dream
 
catiii
Posts: 3887
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:18 pm

airlineworker wrote:
The runway was always the issue, it led to many diversions along with weight restricted flights. The flights I took the recently were well supported and the HVN-CLT flights were only on Saturday, one of the slowest travel days of the week. PHL is a weak hub, both BDL and PVD have about three times as many seats to CLT as compared to PHL. It was only last year that the tall tree to the north had been taken down, that tree greatly affected airline operations, To say that Hartford has a market for air travel and New Haven does not as some anti HVN folks have said is nonsense.
When people think of HVN, images of Dash-8's, Twin otters and the like surface, it was like 3rd world flying. Old habits are hard to break and rumors of how dangerous HVN is have caused some to shy away from using HVN. The state and BDL fought HVN and it's quest for a longer runway tooth and nail as some of BDL's traffic is from the New Haven area.
Having only one jet bridge and a small terminal has not helped either. Bottom line HVN has a similar catchment area as does BDL but the infrastructure is lacking.
LCC's seem the be the fastest growing segment of the airline scene lately and Avelo should do well providing the virus does not makes a second appearance. In the past I flew on full UA 737's to HVN so the market is there despite what some say. Why UA and DL have stayed away, I have my own theory but I will keep that to myself for now. If UA and DL were to come to HVN, it will have a direct effect on BDL and that explains why the state took the runway case to the SCOTUS. BDR and GON have lost airline service years ago and only HVN stands in the way of BDL becoming the only commercial airport with airline service in the state. Not too hard to see the states incentive to quell HVN.


How many Dash 8, CR2, and E75s took a penalty or diverted?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait...

In the meantime the post to which I was responding spoke about the need for an F product given the educational institutions and business in the area. As I have shown, an F product wasn't supported or needed. And saying PHL is a "weak" hub for connecting purposes on around 500 seats per day is laughable. And the Dash flying was as recently as a few years ago, so to intimate that it was third world is equally laughable.

People haven't used HVN because the fares were stupidly high to use it, and because you had to connect to go just about anywhere. It had nothing to do with the runway, or this false impression you are trying to create that somehow HVN wasn't safe.
 
slider
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Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:35 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Having 2 bases 3000 miles apart with no connections is gonna be a nightmare for reliability and spares. They need to get their network connected ASAP

Really? They will be two different fleets and crews (737-700 for HVN and 737-800 for BUR), which would be unlikely to sub for each other on opposite coasts.

You gotta have 2 maintenance bases. 2 parts stashes. Nothing can sub for anything. And if you have a spare engine where will it live?

Is each base going to have a reserve aircraft to cover for mx? What about reserve crews. Can’t move crews around easily so you’ll need more reserve crews.

If you have a meltdown where you lose 2 aircrafts out of one base then you either cancel most of your schedule of you deadhead an airplane 6 hours


Exactly. And as a small carrier, they don't have the margin as it is to have redundant resources (operational spare, crews, mx parts, etc) much less have two independent networks. In military parlance, it's the problem with division of force.

Avelo's not that good, nor experienced, enough to be so ambitious.
 
NJFlyer27
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:19 pm

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:43 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
A few posters have suggested bridge routes between HVN and BUR bases. There is one unserved airport in a major metropolitan area well positioned to serve as a bridge city and possibly a future third base. It has a functional, ready-to-go terminal: GYY.


100% agree. There is also direct access on the South Shore Train to Downtown Chicago from its Gary/Chicago Airport Station.

Allegiant has tried this airport previously and backed out. I believe that was a missed opportunity.

I flew out of here back in the early 2000s on Southeast. Super easy airport, and right off the highway.

Plenty of opportunity here
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:46 pm

I was the air service development consultant for HVN for 2005 through 2009, before I left my previous firm. I can assure everyone here that airfield infrastructure has indeed been holding back air service at HVN. The constraints were very onerous before the safety areas were extended and the obstacles removed. Between that, and the fact that no ULCC model with appropriate airplanes and strategy existed, there just weren't many legit options to improve air service to the level a market like New Haven deserved. (Allegiant was flying MD80's back then...and those were not going to work at HVN.

To give everyone context, I was also intimately involved in the decision that led to Delta Connection/Comair flying CVG-HVN in the the early 2000s. There was significant concern on the Delta side that the runway was going to be an operational challenge even for a 40-seat configured CRJ just going as far as CVG. Initial specs from Comair Ops Engineering indicated about a 10 passenger payload hit on the worst days. So Delta and HVN, backed by business interests including Yale, negotiated a Minimum Revenue Guarantee (MRG) that helped seal the deal to begin service even with those potential penalties. Fast forward a few months, Ops Engineering seriously miscalculated that penally that would need to be taken on hot days. It turned out that on the worst days the payload penalty was up to 30 passengers. As you can probably imagine, the MRG was drawn down pretty quick and the decision was made to end the expirement pretty quickly.

The reason that Delta made the effort is the reason that many on here are touting the potential for this service. This is a fantastic market opportunity. Great geography. High population. Distant competition. Powerful economic forces. Even though I don't consult for HVN anymore, I was super excited to see this Avelo announcement. I'm impressed by the perseverance that the airport supporters have demonstrated over many years of very difficult challenges. I'm Impressed by the job their current ASD consultant has done. And I'm impressed by Avelo's foresight.

This one is going to be a winner.
 
airlineworker
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:11 pm

catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The runway was always the issue, it led to many diversions along with weight restricted flights. The flights I took the recently were well supported and the HVN-CLT flights were only on Saturday, one of the slowest travel days of the week. PHL is a weak hub, both BDL and PVD have about three times as many seats to CLT as compared to PHL. It was only last year that the tall tree to the north had been taken down, that tree greatly affected airline operations, To say that Hartford has a market for air travel and New Haven does not as some anti HVN folks have said is nonsense.
When people think of HVN, images of Dash-8's, Twin otters and the like surface, it was like 3rd world flying. Old habits are hard to break and rumors of how dangerous HVN is have caused some to shy away from using HVN. The state and BDL fought HVN and it's quest for a longer runway tooth and nail as some of BDL's traffic is from the New Haven area.
Having only one jet bridge and a small terminal has not helped either. Bottom line HVN has a similar catchment area as does BDL but the infrastructure is lacking.
LCC's seem the be the fastest growing segment of the airline scene lately and Avelo should do well providing the virus does not makes a second appearance. In the past I flew on full UA 737's to HVN so the market is there despite what some say. Why UA and DL have stayed away, I have my own theory but I will keep that to myself for now. If UA and DL were to come to HVN, it will have a direct effect on BDL and that explains why the state took the runway case to the SCOTUS. BDR and GON have lost airline service years ago and only HVN stands in the way of BDL becoming the only commercial airport with airline service in the state. Not too hard to see the states incentive to quell HVN.


How many Dash 8, CR2, and E75s took a penalty or diverted?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait...

In the meantime the post to which I was responding spoke about the need for an F product given the educational institutions and business in the area. As I have shown, an F product wasn't supported or needed. And saying PHL is a "weak" hub for connecting purposes on around 500 seats per day is laughable. And the Dash flying was as recently as a few years ago, so to intimate that it was third world is equally laughable.

People haven't used HVN because the fares were stupidly high to use it, and because you had to connect to go just about anywhere. It had nothing to do with the runway, or this false impression you are trying to create that somehow HVN wasn't safe.


Flyers prefer CLT over PHL, the sheer number of more seats to CLT than PHL from BDL and PVD make my point. In the past, UA 737's were diverted at times as were AA's RJ flights to HVN when runways were wet. I've taken dozens of Dash-8 flights and how anyone can say they are a comfortable way of flying is beyond me. Slow speeds, not able to climb above bad weather, loud droning noise and vibrations to loosen fillings. I never said HVN was unsafe, It's the false image those who oppose the airport are trying to get across.
If one can't see that a viable market exists in the greater Metro New Haven area but see's one in Hartford, I say look at the population numbers and the shoreline has a higher per capita income base. Since the 70's, HVN has had 5600 feet with many obstructions, many have been cleaned up, but it's still 5600 feet. NW to DTW said no with two types of planes, DC-9-30 and CRJ. When the Dash's were parked, Piedmont was not able to transition to the ERJ-145 due to the runway. United took many weight restricted flights to ORD and so did DL with flights to CVG. Eastern back in the 70's had to limit 727's to 60 load seats. HVN's numbers grew with the RJ's, CRJ-200 to the CRJ-700 and finally the E-175. I have checked fares and at times HVN was equal or close to BDL's fares. Factor in the longer time spent on the road going to distant airports and HVN is not so bad.
 
jco613
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:05 pm

catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The runway was always the issue, it led to many diversions along with weight restricted flights. The flights I took the recently were well supported and the HVN-CLT flights were only on Saturday, one of the slowest travel days of the week. PHL is a weak hub, both BDL and PVD have about three times as many seats to CLT as compared to PHL. It was only last year that the tall tree to the north had been taken down, that tree greatly affected airline operations, To say that Hartford has a market for air travel and New Haven does not as some anti HVN folks have said is nonsense.
When people think of HVN, images of Dash-8's, Twin otters and the like surface, it was like 3rd world flying. Old habits are hard to break and rumors of how dangerous HVN is have caused some to shy away from using HVN. The state and BDL fought HVN and it's quest for a longer runway tooth and nail as some of BDL's traffic is from the New Haven area.
Having only one jet bridge and a small terminal has not helped either. Bottom line HVN has a similar catchment area as does BDL but the infrastructure is lacking.
LCC's seem the be the fastest growing segment of the airline scene lately and Avelo should do well providing the virus does not makes a second appearance. In the past I flew on full UA 737's to HVN so the market is there despite what some say. Why UA and DL have stayed away, I have my own theory but I will keep that to myself for now. If UA and DL were to come to HVN, it will have a direct effect on BDL and that explains why the state took the runway case to the SCOTUS. BDR and GON have lost airline service years ago and only HVN stands in the way of BDL becoming the only commercial airport with airline service in the state. Not too hard to see the states incentive to quell HVN.


How many Dash 8, CR2, and E75s took a penalty or diverted?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait...

In the meantime the post to which I was responding spoke about the need for an F product given the educational institutions and business in the area. As I have shown, an F product wasn't supported or needed. And saying PHL is a "weak" hub for connecting purposes on around 500 seats per day is laughable. And the Dash flying was as recently as a few years ago, so to intimate that it was third world is equally laughable.

People haven't used HVN because the fares were stupidly high to use it, and because you had to connect to go just about anywhere. It had nothing to do with the runway, or this false impression you are trying to create that somehow HVN wasn't safe.

Ok, I'll bite. When I was driving Uber in New Haven from 2016-19, I practically did every night at the airport. If it was anything but clear, and especially with the dash-8s, but also the CR7s that came after (before the E75s), the planes would line up for final at HVN and when going around, would divert BACK TO PHL. This was not a one off or two off, this happened practically every time that there was weather in the area...so yes, it was an issue.

And, as another poster mentioned, Yale has already provided subsidies for flights in the past (and the poster pointed out why the experiment died a quick death at the time, and it wasn't Yale). I am not saying they need a F product, just a legacy carrier in addition to Avelo to compliment the service.
 
catiii
Posts: 3887
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:41 pm

airlineworker wrote:
catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The runway was always the issue, it led to many diversions along with weight restricted flights. The flights I took the recently were well supported and the HVN-CLT flights were only on Saturday, one of the slowest travel days of the week. PHL is a weak hub, both BDL and PVD have about three times as many seats to CLT as compared to PHL. It was only last year that the tall tree to the north had been taken down, that tree greatly affected airline operations, To say that Hartford has a market for air travel and New Haven does not as some anti HVN folks have said is nonsense.
When people think of HVN, images of Dash-8's, Twin otters and the like surface, it was like 3rd world flying. Old habits are hard to break and rumors of how dangerous HVN is have caused some to shy away from using HVN. The state and BDL fought HVN and it's quest for a longer runway tooth and nail as some of BDL's traffic is from the New Haven area.
Having only one jet bridge and a small terminal has not helped either. Bottom line HVN has a similar catchment area as does BDL but the infrastructure is lacking.
LCC's seem the be the fastest growing segment of the airline scene lately and Avelo should do well providing the virus does not makes a second appearance. In the past I flew on full UA 737's to HVN so the market is there despite what some say. Why UA and DL have stayed away, I have my own theory but I will keep that to myself for now. If UA and DL were to come to HVN, it will have a direct effect on BDL and that explains why the state took the runway case to the SCOTUS. BDR and GON have lost airline service years ago and only HVN stands in the way of BDL becoming the only commercial airport with airline service in the state. Not too hard to see the states incentive to quell HVN.


How many Dash 8, CR2, and E75s took a penalty or diverted?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait...

In the meantime the post to which I was responding spoke about the need for an F product given the educational institutions and business in the area. As I have shown, an F product wasn't supported or needed. And saying PHL is a "weak" hub for connecting purposes on around 500 seats per day is laughable. And the Dash flying was as recently as a few years ago, so to intimate that it was third world is equally laughable.

People haven't used HVN because the fares were stupidly high to use it, and because you had to connect to go just about anywhere. It had nothing to do with the runway, or this false impression you are trying to create that somehow HVN wasn't safe.


Flyers prefer CLT over PHL, the sheer number of more seats to CLT than PHL from BDL and PVD make my point. In the past, UA 737's were diverted at times as were AA's RJ flights to HVN when runways were wet. I've taken dozens of Dash-8 flights and how anyone can say they are a comfortable way of flying is beyond me. Slow speeds, not able to climb above bad weather, loud droning noise and vibrations to loosen fillings. I never said HVN was unsafe, It's the false image those who oppose the airport are trying to get across.
If one can't see that a viable market exists in the greater Metro New Haven area but see's one in Hartford, I say look at the population numbers and the shoreline has a higher per capita income base. Since the 70's, HVN has had 5600 feet with many obstructions, many have been cleaned up, but it's still 5600 feet. NW to DTW said no with two types of planes, DC-9-30 and CRJ. When the Dash's were parked, Piedmont was not able to transition to the ERJ-145 due to the runway. United took many weight restricted flights to ORD and so did DL with flights to CVG. Eastern back in the 70's had to limit 727's to 60 load seats. HVN's numbers grew with the RJ's, CRJ-200 to the CRJ-700 and finally the E-175. I have checked fares and at times HVN was equal or close to BDL's fares. Factor in the longer time spent on the road going to distant airports and HVN is not so bad.


"United took weight restricted flights to ORD?!" That was 25 years ago!!

When did a AA CRJ or ERJ divert because of a wet runway?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:46 pm

jetlanta wrote:
I was the air service development consultant for HVN for 2005 through 2009, before I left my previous firm. I can assure everyone here that airfield infrastructure has indeed been holding back air service at HVN. The constraints were very onerous before the safety areas were extended and the obstacles removed. Between that, and the fact that no ULCC model with appropriate airplanes and strategy existed, there just weren't many legit options to improve air service to the level a market like New Haven deserved. (Allegiant was flying MD80's back then...and those were not going to work at HVN.


I'm really hopeful that the operational issues can be worked out because, as you say, the market potential is definitely there. Moreover, there have been some other infrastructure improvements that folks have not mentioned on this thread, like a new-ish jet bridge. But even with the obstacles removed, 5,600 feet is going to be tricky for a 73G when winter precip is around. It'll be interesting to see how Avelo's first winter goes.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
airlineworker
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:07 pm

jetlanta wrote:
I was the air service development consultant for HVN for 2005 through 2009, before I left my previous firm. I can assure everyone here that airfield infrastructure has indeed been holding back air service at HVN. The constraints were very onerous before the safety areas were extended and the obstacles removed. Between that, and the fact that no ULCC model with appropriate airplanes and strategy existed, there just weren't many legit options to improve air service to the level a market like New Haven deserved. (Allegiant was flying MD80's back then...and those were not going to work at HVN.

To give everyone context, I was also intimately involved in the decision that led to Delta Connection/Comair flying CVG-HVN in the the early 2000s. There was significant concern on the Delta side that the runway was going to be an operational challenge even for a 40-seat configured CRJ just going as far as CVG. Initial specs from Comair Ops Engineering indicated about a 10 passenger payload hit on the worst days. So Delta and HVN, backed by business interests including Yale, negotiated a Minimum Revenue Guarantee (MRG) that helped seal the deal to begin service even with those potential penalties. Fast forward a few months, Ops Engineering seriously miscalculated that penally that would need to be taken on hot days. It turned out that on the worst days the payload penalty was up to 30 passengers. As you can probably imagine, the MRG was drawn down pretty quick and the decision was made to end the expirement pretty quickly.

The reason that Delta made the effort is the reason that many on here are touting the potential for this service. This is a fantastic market opportunity. Great geography. High population. Distant competition. Powerful economic forces. Even though I don't consult for HVN anymore, I was super excited to see this Avelo announcement. I'm impressed by the perseverance that the airport supporters have demonstrated over many years of very difficult challenges. I'm Impressed by the job their current ASD consultant has done. And I'm impressed by Avelo's foresight.

This one is going to be a winner.


Good points, also when DL pulled the service, CVG lost it's hub status and 4-5 cities also lost CVG service and one being ISP. If someone does not know the New Haven area and the outlying towns, they don't know of the potential that exists for more service. That's why the state fought so hard to limit the runway to 5600 feet as HVN will impact BDL the most apart from PVD and HPN.The shoreline, state waterfront parks, theaters, Yale and it's museums and the best Italian food and apizza in the state. Harford is a snore, office buildings and run down neighborhoods.
Having a LCC will be a first for HVN and there is much demand for LCC's as shown by their growth over the past few years. I hope AA stays, loads are very good and many last minute tickets sold meaning the average fares are good. I see down the road UA with CRJ-550's to ORD. In the 90's UA had four 737 flights to ORD, the ORD-HVN flights had higher loads due to the HVN-ORD flights having to deal with frequent weight restrictions. Avelo and Avports are committing 4 million to upgrade the present terminal. I have never seen such support for HVN before, politicians, local, state and federal are all behind the runway upgrade and a new terminal in 2023. And it's happening in my lifetime.
 
tichydev
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:33 am

Re: Avelo Airlines To Create HVN Base

Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:31 pm

catiii wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
catiii wrote:

How many Dash 8, CR2, and E75s took a penalty or diverted?

Go ahead and look. I'll wait...

In the meantime the post to which I was responding spoke about the need for an F product given the educational institutions and business in the area. As I have shown, an F product wasn't supported or needed. And saying PHL is a "weak" hub for connecting purposes on around 500 seats per day is laughable. And the Dash flying was as recently as a few years ago, so to intimate that it was third world is equally laughable.

People haven't used HVN because the fares were stupidly high to use it, and because you had to connect to go just about anywhere. It had nothing to do with the runway, or this false impression you are trying to create that somehow HVN wasn't safe.


Flyers prefer CLT over PHL, the sheer number of more seats to CLT than PHL from BDL and PVD make my point. In the past, UA 737's were diverted at times as were AA's RJ flights to HVN when runways were wet. I've taken dozens of Dash-8 flights and how anyone can say they are a comfortable way of flying is beyond me. Slow speeds, not able to climb above bad weather, loud droning noise and vibrations to loosen fillings. I never said HVN was unsafe, It's the false image those who oppose the airport are trying to get across.
If one can't see that a viable market exists in the greater Metro New Haven area but see's one in Hartford, I say look at the population numbers and the shoreline has a higher per capita income base. Since the 70's, HVN has had 5600 feet with many obstructions, many have been cleaned up, but it's still 5600 feet. NW to DTW said no with two types of planes, DC-9-30 and CRJ. When the Dash's were parked, Piedmont was not able to transition to the ERJ-145 due to the runway. United took many weight restricted flights to ORD and so did DL with flights to CVG. Eastern back in the 70's had to limit 727's to 60 load seats. HVN's numbers grew with the RJ's, CRJ-200 to the CRJ-700 and finally the E-175. I have checked fares and at times HVN was equal or close to BDL's fares. Factor in the longer time spent on the road going to distant airports and HVN is not so bad.


"United took weight restricted flights to ORD?!" That was 25 years ago!!

When did a AA CRJ or ERJ divert because of a wet runway?


The ERJ-175 has been far better but the CRJs would divert and take weight restrictions all the time. In the Summer the CRJ2 would have a scheduled weight restriction between 2-5 pax just to PHL on a dry day and they could remove more pax the day of. landing 20 on a wet runway PSA would sometimes remove over 20 pax or just cancel. I have seen multiple CRJ-200/700s attempt a perfectly Visual landing on 20 and go around diverting to either BDL or back to PHL. The -200 wouldn't even touch snow. The Saturday CLT departure was routinely subbed as a CRJ7 before we had it in the regular schedule due to the -200s lackluster performance and it was usually filled. I remember one week in early May where on a perfectly clear day we got a -200 and they bumped off 24 pax to depart to CLT. I have the APG performance numbers run somewhere for the CRJ at HVN on a standard day and they're very underwhelming; it barely makes PHL.

The Dash-8-100 was also weight restricted at HVN to between 30-33 seats but I believe that was common to all markets it served. I flew a Learjet 60XR based at HVN, even a midsize corporate jet with abundant power and an APR system was weight restricted on a standard day departing runway 2 and we were not able to operate there under part 135 if the runway was wet it actually canceled a few charters and delayed some 91 trips. HVN is my home airport and I've been flying from here going on 10 years. It is a great, well maintained airport but, to the unfamiliar airline pilot I can see how it can be challenging.

Most of the E75 diversions were due to low ceilings/vis so we cant really blame that on anything other than lowering the minimums.

Just because an aircraft can do it doesn't mean every airline is willing to take that risk. The E175 has been a godsend for HVN and other markets like HHH. reliability is at all time highs with the E175 and Republic does a phenomenal job. We will be very sad to see them leave if they follow through with the October schedule.

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