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Alsatian
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Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 4:29 pm

It will be the biggest Dassault business jet ever. Two engines, 13.900km range (12.000km for the actual 8X flagship) and first deliveries in 2025.

Some pices and details (in french) : https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/avec-l ... e-20210506 and https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/ae ... ult_763658
 
Noshow
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 4:38 pm

Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 4:41 pm

A video in English: https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/MediaCenter/News/Pages/NewFalconJet.aspx

A nice vehicle for the super rich; I guess it can run on SAF.

This is competing directly with Gulfstream and Bombardier. The recent success of the Rafale fighter on export markets, with a follow up order from Egypt for a further 30 units, gives the company the cash helping the launch of such products.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 4:42 pm

Noshow wrote:
Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?


No, it does not make any sense from a technical point of view. The wing is sized for ultra long flights, and the whole structure is unable to sustain the cycles associated with regional operations. etc.
 
Noshow
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 4:49 pm

Thanks. At least the big and wide cabin sounded like being "commuter capable".
 
889091
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 5:05 pm

Stretched Citation X with a shorter nose.. ;-)
 
Raptormodeller
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 5:34 pm

Mmmm, talking about high speed.... is it me or is Dassault trying to get orders from customers with a 'higher speed' plane before Aerion build an AS2?
Looks awesome, but would look even better with a 3rd engine.
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lightsaber
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 5:41 pm

From the OP links
RR pearl engines.

I couldn't fully get all the details, but this seems like a 6X stretch with high speed wings (enabled by the higher output engines).

Dassault needs a top end business jet.

Lightsaber
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CV990A
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 5:55 pm

It is a sharp-looking bird, but I have to express some disappointment at the name. I was hoping they were bringing back the 'original' Falcon 10!

Kittens Give Morbo Gas
 
VSMUT
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 6:29 pm

Wow, that nose!

Noshow wrote:
Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?


The wings are optimized for long range cruise. I don't think it would make a good basis for a regional jet. Regional jets spend too much time climbing and descending.
 
queb
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 6:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
From the OP links
RR pearl engines.

I couldn't fully get all the details, but this seems like a 6X stretch with high speed wings (enabled by the higher output engines).

Dassault needs a top end business jet.

Lightsaber


No the cabin is 7 inches larger than 6X, CFRP wing and 115k lb MTOW
Last edited by queb on Thu May 06, 2021 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
queb
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 6:50 pm

Alsatian wrote:
It will be the biggest Dassault business jet ever. Two engines, 13.900km range (12.000km for the actual 8X flagship) and first deliveries in 2025.


In facts it's more than that, it's 13'900 at M 0.85 vs 12'000 at M 0.80
 
queb
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 7:37 pm

Image
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 7:38 pm

The first falcon with Rollers.

Good decision.
 
aumaverick
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 7:58 pm

armagnac2010 wrote:
A video in English: https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/MediaCenter/News/Pages/NewFalconJet.aspx

A nice vehicle for the super rich; I guess it can run on SAF.

This is competing directly with Gulfstream and Bombardier. The recent success of the Rafale fighter on export markets, with a follow up order from Egypt for a further 30 units, gives the company the cash helping the launch of such products.


Does any other cockpit offer a lie-flat seat, or reclining position as extreme as noted in the video? The test pilots noted the potential for single-pilot operation while the other pilot rests due to the extensive automation built-in. Is this the step towards true single pilot flight?
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DFW17L
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 9:44 pm

Nice looking aircraft.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 9:49 pm

Neither GLF, nor BBD offer full reclining seats in the cockpit. I can imagine how much reduction in workload they did, it’s pretty darn near nothing now in cruise. They’ve been behind the competition in speed and cabin size for some time now, so they’re making the most of it. A little spaceship-y in the CGI, it’ll be interesting to see the final interior. Shower is huge improvement on the other two types. It’s weight will be restricting at some airports. But, lots of traditional GA airports are challenged operating the new types, looking at you TEB.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 9:58 pm

Does any other cockpit offer a lie-flat seat, or reclining position as extreme as noted in the video? The test pilots noted the potential for single-pilot operation while the other pilot rests due to the extensive automation built-in. Is this the step towards true single pilot flight?


Obviously yes. Reduced crew operation in cruise will be the first step, other OEMs are working on the concept. What is specific to the Falcon is the crew resting in the cockpit, for no other reason that it minimises the space allocated to the drivers, there is no room for a crew rest compartment on the airplane.

Full single pilot operation will require a lot more adaptation on the system side and might only be achievable with the next generation of airplanes. Currently a lot of procedures, abnormal or emergencies, still rely on crew actions.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 10:24 pm

I love how a 7" increase in cabin width is now touted as "X-WIDE"...and how the "business jet" equivalent in French sounds like it's meant for clandestine liaisons...though the very flexible cabin configurations are certainly conducive. :cloudnine:

https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/Publishi ... OR_WEB.mp4

Has COVID-19 really triggered an upsurge of exclusive flying that Dassault saw fit to launch this megabucks ride just right after the maiden flight of their second 6X test aircraft?

https://www.flightglobal.com/business-a ... 95.article


armagnac2010 wrote:
What is specific to the Falcon is the crew resting in the cockpit, for no other reason that it minimises the space allocated to the drivers, there is no room for a crew rest compartment on the airplane.

Real estate must indeed be at a premium in such a rarefied atmosphere that no cabin space can be found for les chauffeurs in a plane as long as the A318. :scratchchin:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
jetlanta
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 10:27 pm

Stunning airplane until you notice the nose. Whyyyyyyyyyyy?
 
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Thu May 06, 2021 10:32 pm

Devilfish wrote:
I love how a 7" increase in cabin width is now touted as "X-WIDE"...and how the "business jet" equivalent in French sounds like it's meant for clandestine liaisons...though the very flexible cabin configurations are certainly conducive. :cloudnine:

https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/Publishi ... OR_WEB.mp4

Has COVID-19 really triggered an upsurge of exclusive flying that Dassault saw fit to launch this megabucks ride just right after the maiden flight of their second 6X test aircraft?

https://www.flightglobal.com/business-a ... 95.article


armagnac2010 wrote:
What is specific to the Falcon is the crew resting in the cockpit, for no other reason that it minimises the space allocated to the drivers, there is no room for a crew rest compartment on the airplane.

Real estate must indeed be at a premium in such a rarefied atmosphere that no cabin space can be found for les chauffeurs in a plane as long as the A318. :scratchchin:


Yes, sales and backlogs are up. Three to four years at GLF and BBD for the top end models. But so are sales of high-end RVs, yachts, second homes. Lot of money sloshing around looking for a home.
 
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 12:41 am

Noshow wrote:
Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?

Please god, no.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 1:44 am

As a falcon 8x fan, It's a shame they didn't improve that format with better range and new fuselage width - it's not elegant anymore. The 3 engines were just as fuel-efficient as the 650 and 6500 competitors, and are not subject to the same edto restrictions, and the short-field performance was always the drawcard for the Dassault range. According to the stats the 10X has no advantage in that respect Lookswise it is certainly of the ungainly but efficient school of design, as seen on the A350/787.. I may well change my mind in person.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Max Q
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 3:22 am

Always been a big fan of Falcons, the original 10, 20 and 50 series are beautiful aircraft


But sheez, they just got homelier and homelier since then, what’s with the ‘Anteater’ nose on this thing ?!


It’s bizarre, in fact I’m just not a fan of the aesthetics in general, incomprehensible really



I have no doubt that technically it will be an outstanding aircraft and very nice to fly although I suspect the fully reclining pilot seat is Dassault’s way of providing a really poor ‘pilot rest area’ not using up any cabin space for owners quite happy to delete a dedicated area, keeping it all for themselves


From what I understand there’s a number of those !



Maybe it will look better in real life, I am glad to see a Falcon that can compete on an equal footing with Gulfstream and Bombardier’s flagship aircraft
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 11:25 am

Cabin height at 6’8”... NICE along with a 3000 ft Cabin altitude.... AWESOME... Relaxed and fresh at arrival? I hope so
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 8:02 pm

The single throttle design is amazing! What a technological leap! Very interested in how they implemented it!
 
TC957
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 9:58 pm

panam330 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?

Please god, no.

Why do you say that ? Maybe Dassault could well re-jig the airframe and tweak the wing of the 10X and turn it into the next efficient regional jet. As it is, huge range it may have but half the flights big biz-jets do are LBG-LTN or GVA-FAB anyway !
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Fri May 07, 2021 10:13 pm

queb wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
From the OP links
RR pearl engines.

I couldn't fully get all the details, but this seems like a 6X stretch with high speed wings (enabled by the higher output engines).

Dassault needs a top end business jet.

Lightsaber


No the cabin is 7 inches larger than 6X, CFRP wing and 115k lb MTOW

Excellent, I will have to find an English language source.

A plane truly designed to compete at the top end then.

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 12:57 am

Jungleneer wrote:
The single throttle design is amazing! What a technological leap! Very interested in how they implemented it!


With electronic throttles (rheostats, actually) and FADECs, not much of leap at all. Just attach the wiring of both FADECs to one throttle. It operates whatever is operating at the back end.
 
panam330
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 1:22 am

TC957 wrote:
panam330 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?

Please god, no.

Why do you say that ? Maybe Dassault could well re-jig the airframe and tweak the wing of the 10X and turn it into the next efficient regional jet. As it is, huge range it may have but half the flights big biz-jets do are LBG-LTN or GVA-FAB anyway !

Re: regional jets, I’m of the opinion that just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 2:46 am

Without a stretch, it would make a very long ranged 50-60- seater. The G7500 has approximately the same floor as a CRJ-700. It’ll be interesting to see how a new version of the Pearl works out.
 
Max Q
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 3:14 am

Jungleneer wrote:
The single throttle design is amazing! What a technological leap! Very interested in how they implemented it!



Don’t see it as a leap, in fact what’s the point ? More like technology for its own sake


I know the Rafale has this feature and I guess it’s a workload reducer but that’s a single seat fighter


Are two throttles really too much to handle on a two pilot bizjet ?


How have we coped so far ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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NOLAWildcat
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 3:41 am

Max Q wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
The single throttle design is amazing! What a technological leap! Very interested in how they implemented it!



Don’t see it as a leap, in fact what’s the point ? More like technology for its own sake


I know the Rafale has this feature and I guess it’s a workload reducer but that’s a single seat fighter


Are two throttles really too much to handle on a two pilot bizjet ?


How have we coped so far ?


Does the single throttle design allow for differential thrust if needed? I know with a T-tail, rear-engined design the thrust is much closer to the centerline, so it’s less effective. But I was curious if you could steer a bird with this throttle design using differential thrust similar to the B-2’s yaw control when in hostile airspace (or United 292 for that matter).
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 4:55 am

The tech leap is how it is controlled. They are controlling the engines with the Flight Controls Computer using a direct link with FBW directional controls. The thrust levers are connected to the Flight Controls Computers and those controls the FADECs. It is almost like the autothrust is always turned on. In my point of view, this is a similar jump to the A320 neutral speed stability controls introduction in the 80’s.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 5:37 am

TC957 wrote:
panam330 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Would a regional jet derivative make sense for them?

Please god, no.

Why do you say that ? Maybe Dassault could well re-jig the airframe and tweak the wing of the 10X and turn it into the next efficient regional jet. As it is, huge range it may have but half the flights big biz-jets do are LBG-LTN or GVA-FAB anyway !


You are probably closer to a completely new wing, if you want to make it even slightly competitive with alternative regional jets. A stretch is a must. It will need different engines, probably a PW1000G variant. Not sure how big the cargo hold is on this thing, but probably not big enough for 90-100 bags. OTOH, the cabin is as tall and 4 cm wider than an E-jet, so it would be comfortable.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Without a stretch, it would make a very long ranged 50-60- seater. The G7500 has approximately the same floor as a CRJ-700. It’ll be interesting to see how a new version of the Pearl works out.


Cabin length is 16.4 meters according to simpleflying. The CRJ-900 has a cabin length of around 21 meters for a fairly tight 90 seat configuration, so we are looking at something like a 5 meter stretch at least before it becomes valid as a regional jet.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 3:31 pm

I didn’t say it would be a viable RJ, just a very long ranged one.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 3:44 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I didn’t say it would be a viable RJ, just a very long ranged one.

A regional jet with intercontinental ranges kind a ignores the "regional" of regional jet.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 4:43 pm

It looks ok, but really could use another engine. :D

If even Dassault won't grace the world with more trimotors, who else can we depend on?
 
petertenthije
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 4:46 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
It looks ok, but really could use another engine. :D

If even Dassault won't grace the world with more trimotors, who else can we depend on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVqWEoyiaBA
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
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LCDFlight
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sat May 08, 2021 5:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I didn’t say it would be a viable RJ, just a very long ranged one.


I feel like the French could use it as an anti-submarine platform, or a bomber. :stirthepot:
 
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Aesma
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sun May 09, 2021 1:17 am

It's missing an engine, and that's all I have to say about it. If it makes money for them so that the trijets continue, good.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sun May 09, 2021 1:57 am

Aesma wrote:
It's missing an engine, and that's all I have to say about it. If it makes money for them so that the trijets continue, good.


The tri-motors are dead now
 
rbavfan
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sun May 09, 2021 8:56 am

queb wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
From the OP links
RR pearl engines.

I couldn't fully get all the details, but this seems like a 6X stretch with high speed wings (enabled by the higher output engines).

Dassault needs a top end business jet.

Lightsaber


No the cabin is 7 inches larger than 6X, CFRP wing and 115k lb MTOW


1" wider than a E190.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Sun May 09, 2021 2:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
queb wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
From the OP links
RR pearl engines.

I couldn't fully get all the details, but this seems like a 6X stretch with high speed wings (enabled by the higher output engines).

Dassault needs a top end business jet.

Lightsaber


No the cabin is 7 inches larger than 6X, CFRP wing and 115k lb MTOW

Excellent, I will have to find an English language source.

A plane truly designed to compete at the top end then.

Lightsaber


Google has translate built in on that website. Just switch it to english.
 
queb
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Mon May 10, 2021 1:43 am

lightsaber wrote:
queb wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
From the OP links
RR pearl engines.

I couldn't fully get all the details, but this seems like a 6X stretch with high speed wings (enabled by the higher output engines).

Dassault needs a top end business jet.

Lightsaber


No the cabin is 7 inches larger than 6X, CFRP wing and 115k lb MTOW

Excellent, I will have to find an English language source.

A plane truly designed to compete at the top end then.

Lightsaber


All specs in english:
https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/Aircr ... view.aspx#

Image
 
wingman
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Mon May 10, 2021 3:04 pm

Is it too late to fix the nose? If they're going to go off the rails I'd prefer a De Gaullic beak, like a Klingon Warship. What a cockpit though.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Mon May 10, 2021 4:08 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
The single throttle design is amazing! What a technological leap! Very interested in how they implemented it!


With electronic throttles (rheostats, actually) and FADECs, not much of leap at all. Just attach the wiring of both FADECs to one throttle. It operates whatever is operating at the back end.

Most likely not rheostats, but hall effect sensors: they are much more stable, repeatable and (usually) accurate.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Mon May 10, 2021 7:00 pm

queb wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
queb wrote:

No the cabin is 7 inches larger than 6X, CFRP wing and 115k lb MTOW

Excellent, I will have to find an English language source.

A plane truly designed to compete at the top end then.

Lightsaber


All specs in english:
https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/Aircr ... view.aspx#

Image

Thank you. That thing is a flying fuel tank! :faint:

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
Noshow
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Mon May 10, 2021 7:10 pm

Even with tail engines I would put my double bed in the back. Just in front of the shower.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7603
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Re: Dassault to launch Falcon 10X

Mon May 10, 2021 8:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
queb wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Excellent, I will have to find an English language source.

A plane truly designed to compete at the top end then.

Lightsaber


All specs in english:
https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/Aircr ... view.aspx#

Image

Thank you. That thing is a flying fuel tank! :faint:

Lightsaber


M. Breguet says any long-range plane is a flying fuel tank.

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