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CalAir
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:15 am

BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 7:41 pm

Given that the UK government has begun to announce the "green list" of countries people can return from without the need to quarantine for 10 days post 17th May, and Portugal being a predicted hot-spot for travel for UK citizens BA have announced extra flights from the UK to FAO from several airports including MAN, NCL and EDI, will we possibly see extra uplift on these routes with BA operating 777 or 787 frames rather than the usual A320/321 used?
British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
 
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Crosswind
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 7:51 pm

The main issue for BA here is the cabin configurations on their wide bodies are pretty premium heavy, which means that they really don’t have huge capacities. People going for Palma aren’t going to pay a huge premium for a flat bed, as they may do for a 12 hour flight to Singapore.

Even TUI normally remove the premium economy cabins from their dedicated short haul 787s for the summer, with other flights being operated between long haul rotations. But there is a huge difference in seat coats between an all economy layout for a wide body on short haul and one configured for long haul flights.

BA’s A320s seat a maximum of 177 or 180 passengers, and the A321s seat up to 218 or 220, obviously with big Club cabins those numbers reduce substantially.

In BA configuration the 787-8 seats only 194, with 60 being premium seats and 154 economy. The 787-9 has 89 premium seats and only 127 economy. Neither of those would justify the massive hike in operating costs on a short haul route. By comparison TUI’s 787-8 seats 300, or 325 without a premium cabin, and the 787-9 seats 345.

I think the only BA layout that could ever make sense would be the new 3 Class LGW 777... C32W48Y252. It’s likely that the Club cabin would stretch into WTP leaving 252 economy seats. But you’d have to weigh that capacity against the huge hike in fuel, handling, landing, ATC and crew costs, no point putting on a much bigger aircraft to fill it with £39 fares.

Given the number of short haul aircraft BA have available, plus no doubt plentiful slots at most airports, it’s probably easier to just throw extra rotations at markets where there is significant extra demand.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Opus99
Posts: 2193
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 8:23 pm

Crosswind wrote:
The main issue for BA here is the cabin configurations on their wide bodies are pretty premium heavy, which means that they really don’t have huge capacities. People going for Palma aren’t going to pay a huge premium for a flat bed, as they may do for a 12 hour flight to Singapore.

Even TUI normally remove the premium economy cabins from their dedicated short haul 787s for the summer, with other flights being operated between long haul rotations. But there is a huge difference in seat coats between an all economy layout for a wide body on short haul and one configured for long haul flights.

BA’s A320s seat a maximum of 177 or 180 passengers, and the A321s seat up to 218 or 220, obviously with big Club cabins those numbers reduce substantially.

In BA configuration the 787-8 seats only 194, with 60 being premium seats and 154 economy. The 787-9 has 89 premium seats and only 127 economy. Neither of those would justify the massive hike in operating costs on a short haul route. By comparison TUI’s 787-8 seats 300, or 325 without a premium cabin, and the 787-9 seats 345.

I think the only BA layout that could ever make sense would be the new 3 Class LGW 777... C32W48Y252. It’s likely that the Club cabin would stretch into WTP leaving 252 economy seats. But you’d have to weigh that capacity against the huge hike in fuel, handling, landing, ATC and crew costs, no point putting on a much bigger aircraft to fill it with £39 fares.

Given the number of short haul aircraft BA have available, plus no doubt plentiful slots at most airports, it’s probably easier to just throw extra rotations at markets where there is significant extra demand.

Regards
CROSSWIND

BA 787-8 seats 214
BA 787-9 seats 216
 
CalAir
Topic Author
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:15 am

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 pm

Thanks for the responses. Never realised the premium heavy config of the 777/787 fleet. Yes definitely no issues on slots currently so extra rotations on the 320/321 fleet makes perfect sense
British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
 
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Crosswind
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 8:44 pm

Opus99 wrote:
BA 787-8 seats 214
BA 787-9 seats 216


Clearly failed at the 60+154 test. #embarrassed
 
patrickw421
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 8:58 pm

And do remember to check on the Portuguese side as well. They are renewing the lockdown rules every 2 weeks so far (currently until May 16) and unlike Greece they haven't implemented any exemption besides the EU-wide exemption for entry as tourists. To my understanding therefore Portugal only allow people from UK for essential purposes as there is a general restriction for non-EU arrivals.

This if continued as is, will greatly reduce how many people can fly from UK to Portugal.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10754
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 9:13 pm

Crosswind wrote:
The main issue for BA here is the cabin configurations on their wide bodies are pretty premium heavy, which means that they really don’t have huge capacities. People going for Palma aren’t going to pay a huge premium for a flat bed, as they may do for a 12 hour flight to Singapore.

Even TUI normally remove the premium economy cabins from their dedicated short haul 787s for the summer, with other flights being operated between long haul rotations. But there is a huge difference in seat coats between an all economy layout for a wide body on short haul and one configured for long haul flights.

BA’s A320s seat a maximum of 177 or 180 passengers, and the A321s seat up to 218 or 220, obviously with big Club cabins those numbers reduce substantially.

In BA configuration the 787-8 seats only 194, with 60 being premium seats and 154 economy. The 787-9 has 89 premium seats and only 127 economy. Neither of those would justify the massive hike in operating costs on a short haul route. By comparison TUI’s 787-8 seats 300, or 325 without a premium cabin, and the 787-9 seats 345.

I think the only BA layout that could ever make sense would be the new 3 Class LGW 777... C32W48Y252. It’s likely that the Club cabin would stretch into WTP leaving 252 economy seats. But you’d have to weigh that capacity against the huge hike in fuel, handling, landing, ATC and crew costs, no point putting on a much bigger aircraft to fill it with £39 fares.

Given the number of short haul aircraft BA have available, plus no doubt plentiful slots at most airports, it’s probably easier to just throw extra rotations at markets where there is significant extra demand.

Regards
CROSSWIND


'In BA configuration the 787-8 seats only 194, with 60 being premium seats and 154 economy'. Would you like to review these numbers?.
 
TC957
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Fri May 07, 2021 9:47 pm

BA have plenty of A321's free to add extra frequencies to Portugal. Wide-bodies won't be needed unless there's a big cargo demand.
 
A320B737NGCapt
Posts: 92
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sat May 08, 2021 12:05 am

patrickw421 wrote:
And do remember to check on the Portuguese side as well. They are renewing the lockdown rules every 2 weeks so far (currently until May 16) and unlike Greece they haven't implemented any exemption besides the EU-wide exemption for entry as tourists. To my understanding therefore Portugal only allow people from UK for essential purposes as there is a general restriction for non-EU arrivals.

This if continued as is, will greatly reduce how many people can fly from UK to Portugal.


And just like last year. Not having British money is worse then having Covid-19. When push comes to shove, money talks unfortunately.
 
factsonly
Posts: 3105
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sat May 08, 2021 7:43 am

BA has operated B788 and B789 cargo-only flights on certain European routes to meet cargo demand.

From this coming week passengers will be accepted on these widebody flights.

- LHR-AMS BA430 B788 Wed, Thu
- LHR-ZRH BA712 B788 Wed,

Also from this week a number of European passenger routes will be re-instated at low frequency with A320.

Source: BA.com
 
fromheretohere9
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 8:19 am

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sat May 08, 2021 8:15 am

BA had operated B788 and occasionally B789 on a number of European routes before COVID. Very often on the AMS, ZRH, ATH and LCA plus a few others. Also MAD has B77W daily and IB use A330’s and A359 though I know this is due to freight demand and for passenger using connections.
So not uncommon to see wide bodies on euro routes. Though most of these routes use wide bodies to carry additional freight loads.
In years gone by BA deployed B763’s on loads of European routes, though I will admit these didn’t have the premium layouts the newer wide bodies in the fleet today.
When looking at the current fleet for economy seats only the B77W and the A35K have cabin bigger than the all economy on A320’s and A321’s and its doubtful they’d use these plane to Portugal due to how heavy they are up front and they are the most used planes for BA currently on the Long Haul routes.
There is the 3-Class B772’s from LGW that hold 252 in economy so these would be good to use as they are not so premium heavy up front. But I’d say these will be used at LGW and LHR and BA would deploy A320’s and A321’s form other UK airports.
 
patrickw421
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sat May 08, 2021 8:19 am

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
patrickw421 wrote:
And do remember to check on the Portuguese side as well. They are renewing the lockdown rules every 2 weeks so far (currently until May 16) and unlike Greece they haven't implemented any exemption besides the EU-wide exemption for entry as tourists. To my understanding therefore Portugal only allow people from UK for essential purposes as there is a general restriction for non-EU arrivals.

This if continued as is, will greatly reduce how many people can fly from UK to Portugal.


And just like last year. Not having British money is worse then having Covid-19. When push comes to shove, money talks unfortunately.


I don't doubt that, all economies need and want a share of that tourism money from not just uk but anywhere 'safe' enough.

What I mean is that most people, not just here, assume that people in UK can go whatever countries UK puts on the green list and that's not entirely true. For tourism to be possible again, it also requires the other end make a decision to start accepting people to enter as tourists too. I've seen quite a lot of people in the UK has forgotten that after brexit, when EU countries talk about exemption for EU citizens regarding the essential reasons requirement, they are not included because they aren't EU anymore.

And in this case I don't think Portugal has already announced to start accepting NonEU tourists other than the likes of NZ/AU that EU has on the list on May 17, they might very likely do so but before that is confirmed it will still affect the demand of these flights.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sun May 09, 2021 10:21 pm

Is FAO runway even long enough for a 777?
 
praunda
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Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:45 pm

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sun May 09, 2021 10:50 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Is FAO runway even long enough for a 777?


TAAG Angola Airlines used to fly to FAO with L1011s, 743s etc so (without looking it up) I'd say yes
 
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Lighthouse
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sun May 09, 2021 11:20 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Is FAO runway even long enough for a 777?


2,500m should be comfortable, especially with such a short flight, low fuel and I'd imagine limited freight carriage. For reference, EK used to serve Newcastle with a 2,300m runway and that was with a 7 hour plus trip back to DXB.

You'd be surprised what large aircraft can do. I used to see 767s regularly in BRS, -300 variants with enough fuel to get to Orlando, taking off on a barely 2,000m runway.
 
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Lighthouse
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sun May 09, 2021 11:25 pm

RE: OP. I can't imagine there'll be any need for wide bodies. There will be more than enough airlines with more than enough NB capacity. More likely we'll just see the likes of EZY and RYR doing increased frequencies until they stop being full.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 470
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Sun May 09, 2021 11:46 pm

BA has used widebodies on European routes for years (as mentioned before) If they need to run extra flights, throw the 787s on to the more "premium" of Euro routes, where they can command a higher price for Club Europe. Keep in mind, BA is well aware of their previous high flyer passengers, and so would rather remind them of the Club World experience on these Euro flights for now.

There are more indirect factors that go into deploying widebodies on shorter routes. Is it better to run planes that are still being paid for? Pilot hours, being ready....its a long list. I'm sure BA will also upsell Premium and Club (which many a brit wannabe will go for).

I wish BA well. We should all be rooting for the industry, instead of arguing all the time on here.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA KL

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
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817Dreamliiner
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Mon May 10, 2021 5:14 am

Crosswind wrote:
The main issue for BA here is the cabin configurations on their wide bodies are pretty premium heavy, which means that they really don’t have huge capacities. People going for Palma aren’t going to pay a huge premium for a flat bed, as they may do for a 12 hour flight to Singapore.

Even TUI normally remove the premium economy cabins from their dedicated short haul 787s for the summer, with other flights being operated between long haul rotations. But there is a huge difference in seat coats between an all economy layout for a wide body on short haul and one configured for long haul flights.

BA’s A320s seat a maximum of 177 or 180 passengers, and the A321s seat up to 218 or 220, obviously with big Club cabins those numbers reduce substantially.

In BA configuration the 787-8 seats only 194, with 60 being premium seats and 154 economy. The 787-9 has 89 premium seats and only 127 economy. Neither of those would justify the massive hike in operating costs on a short haul route. By comparison TUI’s 787-8 seats 300, or 325 without a premium cabin, and the 787-9 seats 345.

I think the only BA layout that could ever make sense would be the new 3 Class LGW 777... C32W48Y252. It’s likely that the Club cabin would stretch into WTP leaving 252 economy seats. But you’d have to weigh that capacity against the huge hike in fuel, handling, landing, ATC and crew costs, no point putting on a much bigger aircraft to fill it with £39 fares.

Given the number of short haul aircraft BA have available, plus no doubt plentiful slots at most airports, it’s probably easier to just throw extra rotations at markets where there is significant extra demand.

Regards
CROSSWIND

On BA, it's very rare for the Premium Economy cabin to be part of Club Europe. More often than not, it's part of the Economy cabin. That being said, the widebody aircraft will always have a slight capacity advantage due to the middle seat blocking in the Club cabin on the A320/A321.
Life is encrypted, you are modified, Like a virus in a lullaby, Artificial till the day you die, silly programme, You're corrupted
 
rutankrd
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Mon May 10, 2021 5:54 am

eurotrader85 wrote:
Is FAO runway even long enough for a 777?


Over 8,000 ft and at sea level, plenty long enough for just about anything. Indeed 707/DC8, 747/Tristar and DC10 frequented throughout the 70s through to the 2000s .

So a 77W isn’t an issue !
 
James42
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Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:53 pm

Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Mon May 10, 2021 6:42 am

I'm thinking maybe SVO could be upgraded to a widebody. It was common place to see a 744 on that route up until a few years ago.
 
Vicenza
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Mon May 10, 2021 6:51 pm

[quote="LAXLHR" I'm sure BA will also upsell Premium and Club (which many a brit wannabe will go for)..[/quote]

Would you explain on your "brit wannabe" bit please?
 
BrianDromey
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Re: BA short haul widebody use after May 17th

Mon May 10, 2021 7:13 pm

BA currently have 15 short haul A321 and 3 in mid-haul configuration and all of them remain parked. The only A321s that are active are the NEOs. Perhaps they have enough slack in the fleet, or might reactivate A321ceos? I think the limited extent of the Green List precludes to much optimism at this stage. Its basically only Portugal until June.

BA has always had a surprisingly small A321 fleet, out of the ~120 strong A32x fleet they only ordered 12 for short haul operations. By contrast they had ~30 A319s and acquired another 11 from bmi.

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