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penguins
Topic Author
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Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 5:25 pm

As reported in this article, Delta is requesting salaried employees from headquarters volunteer to serve and clean at the Atlanta Sky Club due to a shortage of 115 employees. In my opinion it is sad they will not compensate these people for their extra work and quite telling that they have 115 unfilled roles.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15188
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 5:31 pm

Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9653
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 6:00 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.

They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.
 
catiii
Posts: 3887
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 6:04 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.

They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.


Every salaried job posting/PE has an "other duties as assigned" component. It is also no different than Peach Corps or the other holiday volunteering the GO does during peak travel. No one is being forced to go in on off hours.
Last edited by catiii on Thu May 13, 2021 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 6:04 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.


I'm not trying to be daft here, but in the non-airline world people fill in for others on a temporary, ad hoc basis all the time. Sometimes that's necessary to get the job done. It would be a different matter if the jobs in question required specialized training or qualifications, like your fueling example. These jobs don't, other than maybe a SIDA badge, which I presume these folks have.

MIflyer12 wrote:
They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.


Here, we agree.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 1131
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 6:12 pm

I thought "volunteer" meant you are doing work for free. If they are being paid their regular wage, I don't see any problem. When I was principal at a school, I was also a substitute teacher numerous times. I also cleaned toilets.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 6:20 pm

If it’s during their regular schedule I don’t see the problem. If it’s on top of their full time then they should probably get a little bonus
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 6:48 pm

catiii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.

They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.


Every salaried job posting/PE has an "other duties as assigned" component. It is also no different than Peach Corps or the other holiday volunteering the GO does during peak travel. No one is being forced to go in on off hours.


Exempt jobs in the U.S. are based on the type and category of work performed, they can’t just be classified exempt because the employer feels like it or doesn’t want to pay workers on an hourly basis for extra time worked. Sky Club work is definitely non-exempt work which could push some of Delta’s exempt employees whose classifications are already marginal to the point where their exempt classification could be at risk and DL could end up owing back pay for any time beyond 40
weekly hours and additional payroll taxes (one of the reasons why this is a popular target for audits - it can be a revenue source, not just a compliance subject). This type of decision and its related PR is is just asking for a wage and hour audit of your job classifications.
 
amstone17
Posts: 40
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 7:09 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.

Salaries cover typically 40 hours per week with a specific job description, and with a bit of flexibility (couple hours here or there, no one cares), doesn't suddenly mean they can expected/demand people to work 60+ hours a week and not pay them for the extra 20 hours, especially to do work that is not in their job description. Being on salary doesn't mean you now owe every hour of your life to the company, there are limits.


Unless their salary contract includes cleaning the lounge as part of their job description, those workers have every right to not volunteer for extra, unpaid work.
 
32andBelow
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 7:24 pm

amstone17 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.

Salaries cover typically 40 hours per week with a specific job description, and with a bit of flexibility (couple hours here or there, no one cares), doesn't suddenly mean they can expected/demand people to work 60+ hours a week and not pay them for the extra 20 hours, especially to do work that is not in their job description. Being on salary doesn't mean you now owe every hour of your life to the company, there are limits.


Unless their salary contract includes cleaning the lounge as part of their job description, those workers have every right to not volunteer for extra, unpaid work.

They are asking for volunteers. And it doesn’t say it’s on top of their 40 hours.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 378
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 7:34 pm

32andBelow wrote:
amstone17 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.

Salaries cover typically 40 hours per week with a specific job description, and with a bit of flexibility (couple hours here or there, no one cares), doesn't suddenly mean they can expected/demand people to work 60+ hours a week and not pay them for the extra 20 hours, especially to do work that is not in their job description. Being on salary doesn't mean you now owe every hour of your life to the company, there are limits.


Unless their salary contract includes cleaning the lounge as part of their job description, those workers have every right to not volunteer for extra, unpaid work.

They are asking for volunteers. And it doesn’t say it’s on top of their 40 hours.


Rest assured, it is. They're paid to do their regular job, they're not getting a break from their normal responsibilities so they can go buss tables at the Sky Club. They still have to do their day job.

I worked for a large food distributor that tried to pull this shit with us salaried folk when they wanted to bust a strike at the local warehouse. I don't believe in crossing picket lines even if I'm not apart of the group striking and I'm sure as hell not going to do it for free while I put my personal safety at risk.

Ultimately, you can thank the federal government for causing this by jacking up unemployment making it more lucrative for people to sit on their asses rather than work.
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 7:40 pm

amstone17 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.


I've never worked a salaried job where I actually had 40 hours of work to do every single week. That's not typically how that sort of job works. YMMV of course.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
32andBelow
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 7:41 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
amstone17 wrote:

This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.

Salaries cover typically 40 hours per week with a specific job description, and with a bit of flexibility (couple hours here or there, no one cares), doesn't suddenly mean they can expected/demand people to work 60+ hours a week and not pay them for the extra 20 hours, especially to do work that is not in their job description. Being on salary doesn't mean you now owe every hour of your life to the company, there are limits.


Unless their salary contract includes cleaning the lounge as part of their job description, those workers have every right to not volunteer for extra, unpaid work.

They are asking for volunteers. And it doesn’t say it’s on top of their 40 hours.


Rest assured, it is. They're paid to do their regular job, they're not getting a break from their normal responsibilities so they can go buss tables at the Sky Club. They still have to do their day job.

I worked for a large food distributor that tried to pull this shit with us salaried folk when they wanted to bust a strike at the local warehouse. I don't believe in crossing picket lines even if I'm not apart of the group striking and I'm sure as hell not going to do it for free while I put my personal safety at risk.

Ultimately, you can thank the federal government for causing this by jacking up unemployment making it more lucrative for people to sit on their asses rather than work.
well in that case they don’t have to volunteer. A lot of jobs at an airlines are somewhat redundant. Like if you have 20 dispatchers on shift you can maybe get away with 18 on a certain day. If you have 25 accounts payable maybe they can get by with 23 to release some people to volunteer.
 
9252fly
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 7:53 pm

So DL is short of low paid labor to staff the ATL Sky Club, yet its solution is to call on higher paid salaried employees to volunteer? This is seriously messed up!
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 8:08 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
amstone17 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.


I've never worked a salaried job where I actually had 40 hours of work to do every single week. That's not typically how that sort of job works. YMMV of course.


Most airlines have gone through so many rounds of corporate downsizing over the last 20 years of downturns, consolidations, and reorgs that the type of employees at airlines that we are talking about here often carry a tremendous workload compared to peers in other industries, even before COVID. A major airline I worked with did corporate layoffs every year in the four years before COVID, while they were profitable. The pressure on airlines to constantly contain the costs that they can control is enormous, and that frequently involves nonunion exempt employees who they have the most flexibility over. Many airlines were already very lean even pre-Covid.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 8:12 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
amstone17 wrote:

This would be work on top of what their salary pays them for.

If their work was so unimportant that they could be re-tasked without sacrificing anything, then they'd be paid to clean instead of whatever it was they were already doing, but it isn't, it's additional to their existing workload.


I've never worked a salaried job where I actually had 40 hours of work to do every single week. That's not typically how that sort of job works. YMMV of course.


Most airlines have gone through so many rounds of corporate downsizing over the last 20 years of downturns, consolidations, and reorgs that the type of employees at airlines that we are talking about here often carry a tremendous workload compared to peers in other industries, even before COVID. A major airline I worked with did corporate layoffs every year in the four years before COVID, while they were profitable. The pressure on airlines to constantly contain the costs that they can control is enormous, and that frequently involves nonunion exempt employees who they have the most flexibility over. Many airlines were already very lean even pre-Covid.


I get that they're lean but I have a very hard time believing that there is no salaried employee who doesn't have some days that are slower than others (especially these days with business and long-haul travel still very depressed).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 8:27 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


Nice try. The law determines what jobs have to be hourly pay. All work at a skyclub would have to be hourly paid work and cannot be salary. You can't say clean all the dishes till it's done and be paid salary, that's hourly work for obvious reasons.

It can't be part of their salary job, but if the people volunteer, they are volunteering and different
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 8:29 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


Nice try. The law determines what jobs have to be hourly pay. All work at a skyclub would have to be hourly paid work and cannot be salary. You can't say clean all the dishes till it's done and be paid salary, that's hourly work for obvious reasons.

It can't be part of their salary job, but if the people volunteer, they are volunteering and different


Incorrect. The law determines which jobs are exempt from overtime and which aren't. There's nothing illegal about paying someone a salary to wash dishes (a quintessentially non-exempt task) as long as she is paid more if she exceeds the contracted-for number of hours.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 8:52 pm

this is ridiculous, yet there will be no shortage of people lining up to "save their Delta". If it works for them - great. It's not a good look, asking your other employees to volunteer on their off time to cover what would, otherwise be a paid employee that they can't attract because they don't pay enough. Also, did I read that the SkyClub employees are contract employees? Do they even work for Delta???
 
roadrunner165
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:02 pm

Theres a sucker born every minute though, especially at Delta. In my line off work, if you want to pay me salary, Im doing my job and helping out with work that falls within my job classification. Other duties as assigned doesn't mean you own me. The fact that its better for people to stay on unemployment rather than work is a telling sign that something is wrong in the economy. Perhaps pay a living wage?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:09 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I thought "volunteer" meant you are doing work for free. If they are being paid their regular wage, I don't see any problem. When I was principal at a school, I was also a substitute teacher numerous times. I also cleaned toilets.


Well that's hardly the same. Schools aren't for-profit. Putting in extra voluntary work at a school benefits the students. Putting in extra unpaid work that isn't in your contract at a for-profit company economically benefits the management and shareholders. If the management has put itself into a bad position because they failed to hire 115 extra lounge workers, then they should take the hit.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:11 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


Nice try. The law determines what jobs have to be hourly pay. All work at a skyclub would have to be hourly paid work and cannot be salary. You can't say clean all the dishes till it's done and be paid salary, that's hourly work for obvious reasons.

It can't be part of their salary job, but if the people volunteer, they are volunteering and different


Incorrect. The law determines which jobs are exempt from overtime and which aren't. There's nothing illegal about paying someone a salary to wash dishes (a quintessentially non-exempt task) as long as she is paid more if she exceeds the contracted-for number of hours.


It's much more complex then this. Delta can't do what you are saying. If they could they already would have done this and we wouldn't even be talking or reading about it. They have lots of managers who work in related fields who they would have already don't this if they could.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:13 pm

Is this the same DL that couldn't figure out crew staffing three times? Weird.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:19 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Nice try. The law determines what jobs have to be hourly pay. All work at a skyclub would have to be hourly paid work and cannot be salary. You can't say clean all the dishes till it's done and be paid salary, that's hourly work for obvious reasons.

It can't be part of their salary job, but if the people volunteer, they are volunteering and different


Incorrect. The law determines which jobs are exempt from overtime and which aren't. There's nothing illegal about paying someone a salary to wash dishes (a quintessentially non-exempt task) as long as she is paid more if she exceeds the contracted-for number of hours.


It's much more complex then this. Delta can't do what you are saying. If they could they already would have done this and we wouldn't even be talking or reading about it. They have lots of managers who work in related fields who they would have already don't this if they could.


It’s a silly technicality to argue because very few non-exempt employees are paid on a salary basis for a host of reasons including ease of compliance with state time and attendance/ paystub laws, and added complexity in HRIS, time systems, and tax payments. We are talking about exempt, salaried workers here and Delta could indeed end up jeopardizing the exempt classification of some by allowing them to do non-exempt work. The fact that this is now getting national news attention is not great if they’re trying to avoid a classification audit.
Last edited by WkndWanderer on Thu May 13, 2021 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:20 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

Nice try. The law determines what jobs have to be hourly pay. All work at a skyclub would have to be hourly paid work and cannot be salary. You can't say clean all the dishes till it's done and be paid salary, that's hourly work for obvious reasons.

It can't be part of their salary job, but if the people volunteer, they are volunteering and different


Incorrect. The law determines which jobs are exempt from overtime and which aren't. There's nothing illegal about paying someone a salary to wash dishes (a quintessentially non-exempt task) as long as she is paid more if she exceeds the contracted-for number of hours.


It's much more complex then this. Delta can't do what you are saying. If they could they already would have done this and we wouldn't even be talking or reading about it. They have lots of managers who work in related fields who they would have already don't this if they could.


What am I “saying” that Delta “can’t do?”
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 9:24 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Incorrect. The law determines which jobs are exempt from overtime and which aren't. There's nothing illegal about paying someone a salary to wash dishes (a quintessentially non-exempt task) as long as she is paid more if she exceeds the contracted-for number of hours.


It's much more complex then this. Delta can't do what you are saying. If they could they already would have done this and we wouldn't even be talking or reading about it. They have lots of managers who work in related fields who they would have already don't this if they could.


It’s a silly technicality to argue because very few non-exempt employees are paid on a salary basis for a host of reasons including ease of compliance with state time and attendance/ paystub laws, and added complexity in HRIS, time systems, and tax payments. We are talking about exempt, salaried workers here and Delta could indeed end up jeopardizing the exempt classification of some by allowing them to do non-exempt work. The fact that this is now getting national news attention is not great if they’re trying to avoid a classification audit.


You’re assuming, are you not, that this work puts folks over 40 hours. Surely Delta isn’t that foolish.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 10:11 pm

Some more food for thought. All of Delta's employees except for Delta's Pilots and Flight Dispatchers belong to a union and are AT WILL employees. This means that if you are told to volunteer for work in the Sky Club, or somewhere else, even if it is on your own time you will do so. If you refuse, you could be terminated without a reason given. Your only other recourse is to fill a complaint with the state of Georgia and as Delta is such a large employer your complaint would NOT go too far. Delta wins and the employee looses. The work decryption is most likely written so loosely that you can be at the mercy of Delta. I remember an instance at another company about fifty years ago in which a director told select people under him that they should help him lay bricks on their next weekend off at his home. Those that did NOT show up were terminated the following week. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
thorntot
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 10:13 pm

I spent 26 years in the industry (none at Delta, though) and live in the Atlanta area. I'd volunteer four days a month in exchange for a round-trip, space-available ticket for every 8-16 days worked. But there's no way they're going to find the numbers in the active workforce to cover those hours.
 
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Velocity7
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 10:15 pm

Volunteering to do something and volunteering to so it without any remuneration are two totally different scenarios. Surely its the former here. It happens in many organisations in my country (mine included) at different times throughout the year. You can choose not to volunteer.
I see this come up often when the media incorrectly reports airlines looking for 'volunteers' to do something - repat flights, office employees assisting during peak periods at airports etc and they turn it into a scandal. The people are volunteering to do the work, they are not volunteering to do it without being paid, simple.
 
rampbro
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 10:45 pm

Velocity7 wrote:
Surely its the former here.


Not according to the Bloomberg article linked in the OP.
 
roadrunner165
Posts: 892
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 10:56 pm

Again, they’re asking Delta employees to cover for a contractor that probably doesn’t pay peanuts or offer any benefits. Hey - can anyone find the employment advertisement for this contractor? Let’s all take a look.

Bottom line is theres a cardinal difference between helping out during a holiday rush and just piss poor planning. Piss poor planning on your part doesn’t constitute an emergency on my part. And given that Delta already trimmed the fat during Covid, anyone who “volunteers” is likely pawning their own work duties off on other employees.
 
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WashtubFields
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 11:44 pm

I worked st jetBlue during the valntined day meltdowm. I don't call it that.

When we showed up at forest hills we were told just go straight to the airport and help however you can. I tossed bags, helped people find stuff, some people stayed days.

You weren't told to go, but everyone volunterered to go.

We all still got paid, who cares. It was a great experience for me. And my SIDA badge really came in handy.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Thu May 13, 2021 11:59 pm

WashtubFields wrote:
I worked st jetBlue during the valntined day meltdowm. I don't call it that.

When we showed up at forest hills we were told just go straight to the airport and help however you can. I tossed bags, helped people find stuff, some people stayed days.

You weren't told to go, but everyone volunterered to go.

We all still got paid, who cares. It was a great experience for me. And my SIDA badge really came in handy.


I could be wrong but it doesn't seem as though Delta is paying these "volunteers", similar to their "Peachcorps".
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 12:42 am

WashtubFields wrote:
I worked st jetBlue during the valntined day meltdowm. I don't call it that.

When we showed up at forest hills we were told just go straight to the airport and help however you can. I tossed bags, helped people find stuff, some people stayed days.

You weren't told to go, but everyone volunterered to go.

We all still got paid, who cares. It was a great experience for me. And my SIDA badge really came in handy.


Many airlines do this during significant snowstorms, IROPS, etc. when they need EXTRA bodies to handle one offs. They do not do this as a staffing solution to make up for a shortage of 115 vacant regular positions because of their own inept workforce and compensation planning.
 
catiii
Posts: 3887
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 1:34 am

WkndWanderer wrote:
catiii wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.

They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.


Every salaried job posting/PE has an "other duties as assigned" component. It is also no different than Peach Corps or the other holiday volunteering the GO does during peak travel. No one is being forced to go in on off hours.


Exempt jobs in the U.S. are based on the type and category of work performed, they can’t just be classified exempt because the employer feels like it or doesn’t want to pay workers on an hourly basis for extra time worked. Sky Club work is definitely non-exempt work which could push some of Delta’s exempt employees whose classifications are already marginal to the point where their exempt classification could be at risk and DL could end up owing back pay for any time beyond 40
weekly hours and additional payroll taxes (one of the reasons why this is a popular target for audits - it can be a revenue source, not just a compliance subject). This type of decision and its related PR is is just asking for a wage and hour audit of your job classifications.


Again, how is it any different than Peach Corps?
 
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chunhimlai
Posts: 702
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 2:08 am

If DL could pay $20hr for the lounge staff i think the problem would be solved quickly
 
global1
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:07 am

This is what we do at Delta. We pitch in in extreme situations to help get the job done, to the benefit of our customers and coworkers.
Obviously it can seem foreign and a difficult concept to grasp in more adversarial corporate cultures.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:14 am

global1 wrote:
This is what we do at Delta. We pitch in in extreme situations to help get the job done, to the benefit of our customers and coworkers.
Obviously it can be a difficult concept to grasp in a more adversarial corporate culture.


Lol completed expected from you. It’s a difficult concept to grab for those of us who work in a more advanced corporate setting THAT is for sure
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5512
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:18 am

airportugal310 wrote:
global1 wrote:
This is what we do at Delta. We pitch in in extreme situations to help get the job done, to the benefit of our customers and coworkers.
Obviously it can be a difficult concept to grasp in a more adversarial corporate culture.


Lol completed expected from you. It’s a difficult concept to grab for those of us who work in a more advanced corporate setting THAT is for sure

Why should the customers suffer while some hit shots sit around at HQ? Doesn’t seem that advanced
 
casperCA
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:38 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:18 am

global1 wrote:
This is what we do at Delta. We pitch in in extreme situations to help get the job done, to the benefit of our customers and coworkers.
Obviously it can be a difficult concept to grasp in a more adversarial corporate culture.


That would be my impression. Delta is likely bumping projects by a few days and other things these people would normally be doing to free them up to help out. They are then paying them their regular salary that may well be double if not more of what they people cleaning up in the lounge would normally make. This is not a cost saving thing this is a crisis management activity. Delta has a great incentive to get these people back to their normal day jobs as quickly as possible.

I am in Canada, so I don't understand these US labour law details. Up here your either in a salaried position or your paid by the hour. If it is an inter-provincial railway or airline it operates under federal labour law instead of provincial law. But there is no master list of the positioned that are salaried and positions that are hourly. That is a function of how your paid not the work you do. I would have though the same in the US. No?
 
global1
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:31 am

I can assure you that those who pitch in will be recognized and renumerated in some fashion.
‘That’s not my job’ attitude is not the norm at Delta. I’m sure they had plenty step forward.
At my previous employer, Northwest, a request to step up and voluntarily help the company in a pinch would have gone over like the proverbial turd in a punch bowl. Maybe 3 people might have shown up.
Last edited by global1 on Fri May 14, 2021 3:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:36 am

is Delta paying these folks or just asking them to volunteer for "the cause". If they are just looking for volunteers looking to help out their company that's completely different than paying people to jump in and do a different job for a short time. Asking your employees to work for free because you can't retain workers because they aren't compensated decently isn't okay. If that's not happening and Delta is paying these folks then there's really no problem - do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to. Some people may enjoy the diversion from their normal job.
 
TW870
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:38 am

Context from the passenger's perspective. The Atlanta Skyclubs are a mess. The food offerings are far worse in ATL than Detroit or MSP recently. Bowls of bagged cheeze-its and oreos on the buffets in the gorgeous B and F clubs in ATL - compared to food served by staff at MSP. At 8pm in ATL the other night, they had run completely out of the fresh food in the end-caps of the buffets, so all that was left was a few choices of bagged, processed food. I fought my way in to grab a little veggie roll as those were about to disappear, but had to box out several other passengers circling like vultures. I saw several customers just bringing in food from the concourse.

Two issues seem to be causing this. First, the norm of extremely low wages for subcontracted workers just isn't sustainable, and it shouldn't be. Between improved unemployment and recovery hiring in other industries, folks just don't have to do a fast-paced public contact job with public health risks, extremely low wages, and no flight benefits. Raise the wages and they will get the workers. Second, the single-serving policies are a complete waste - too labor intensive, too much garbage, no health benefits. Part of the reason the offerings are so meager is that single serving requirements make more elaborate offerings prohibitively labor intensive.

I'll pay more for better service from decently staffed clubs with better paid employees any day.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:55 am

casperCA wrote:
global1 wrote:
This is what we do at Delta. We pitch in in extreme situations to help get the job done, to the benefit of our customers and coworkers.
Obviously it can be a difficult concept to grasp in a more adversarial corporate culture.


That would be my impression. Delta is likely bumping projects by a few days and other things these people would normally be doing to free them up to help out. They are then paying them their regular salary that may well be double if not more of what they people cleaning up in the lounge would normally make. This is not a cost saving thing this is a crisis management activity. Delta has a great incentive to get these people back to their normal day jobs as quickly as possible.

I am in Canada, so I don't understand these US labour law details. Up here your either in a salaried position or your paid by the hour. If it is an inter-provincial railway or airline it operates under federal labour law instead of provincial law. But there is no master list of the positioned that are salaried and positions that are hourly. That is a function of how your paid not the work you do. I would have though the same in the US. No?


In the U.S., exempt status is based on the type of work you perform, not just how your employer chooses to pay you. Misclassified workers or employees whose duties (or if the amount of time they spend doing exempt vs. nonexempt duties is borderline) are popular enforcement topics not just because of the fines, but because if there’s an indication you’ve worked more than 40 weekly hours the government also gets back payroll taxes on the additional wages you could be owed if the employer’s classification decisions are deemed to be in error. If you have analysts who perform the minimum amount of exempt duties start volunteering for shifts in the SkyClub on any regular basis you could screw things up, or at a minimum draw unwanted attention to your pay practices.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 3:58 am

catiii wrote:
WkndWanderer wrote:
catiii wrote:

Every salaried job posting/PE has an "other duties as assigned" component. It is also no different than Peach Corps or the other holiday volunteering the GO does during peak travel. No one is being forced to go in on off hours.


Exempt jobs in the U.S. are based on the type and category of work performed, they can’t just be classified exempt because the employer feels like it or doesn’t want to pay workers on an hourly basis for extra time worked. Sky Club work is definitely non-exempt work which could push some of Delta’s exempt employees whose classifications are already marginal to the point where their exempt classification could be at risk and DL could end up owing back pay for any time beyond 40
weekly hours and additional payroll taxes (one of the reasons why this is a popular target for audits - it can be a revenue source, not just a compliance subject). This type of decision and its related PR is is just asking for a wage and hour audit of your job classifications.


Again, how is it any different than Peach Corps?


Peach Corps is Delta’s bona fide employee volunteerism program, that organizes things like hurricane assistance and help with holidays and special events. It’s not a labor temp agency to fill in 115 vacant regular positions because the company’s workforce planning or contractor management sucked.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1447
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 4:25 am

Cubsrule wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.


I'm not trying to be daft here, but in the non-airline world people fill in for others on a temporary, ad hoc basis all the time. Sometimes that's necessary to get the job done. It would be a different matter if the jobs in question required specialized training or qualifications, like your fueling example. These jobs don't, other than maybe a SIDA badge, which I presume these folks have.

MIflyer12 wrote:
They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.


Here, we agree.

They are asking middle management, who are already covering staff shortages due to layoffs and buyouts, to cover the SkyClub???
When I see executive staff covering those shifts, I might be inclined to help, but otherwise, if I worked for Delta, that would have to a hard NO.

The staff shortages must really be beginning to bite. We knew this was coming, it's going to be a rough summer because of it, but I can see the dilemma. Do you bring in a bunch of new hires, pay for training and all of the rest, only to KNOW that you will have to lay them off in Sept or October, when demand and CARES goes away?
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 824
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 6:46 am

So I really am struggling to understand the outcry. While I do agree this is news being that the job market has changed so much in the last few months. I don't get how this is different from my employer, who leases a building that has a contracted cleaning service asking salaried employees to take out the trash or clean the office when the contractor is short staffed.

Sure perhaps Delta was cheap in hiring the contractor (though I’d imagine most of the other companies they had to choose from are having similar issues), but how is this not the contractors problem.

I am all for a living wage but Delta doesn’t set the contractor employees wage. Not to get too off topic but McDonald’s is having a similar issue in that they don’t set the wage of their franchise locations.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1098
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 7:04 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Maybe I've missed some nuance, but why should salaried employees be paid extra for doing the company's work on the company's time, especially when they are not required to take these shifts?


It's not a nuance, really, of salaried employment. One is hired for a specific role. The company asking the employee to do the reasonable work necessary in that role is appropriate. Asking the CFO to fuel the plane is not. Asking a financial analyst to bus tables at the SkyClub is not. Asking for 'volunteers' is a slight of hand. If they assigned a non-related salaried employee to do it that employee could claim constructive dismissal.

They just need to hire people. If they can't hire enough people I suggest they review wages, work rules, and quality of management in the clubs.


It's not easy to hire people to work, and pass a drug test, when the government (which has unlimited pockets) is paying quite well if they are specifically required not to work, and are free to use drugs and alcohol. (Mods, this is on topic. The #1 difficulty in recruiting for these roles is the drug test). Assuming these workers are in fact FAA-regulated Delta workers. If they don't work for Delta, that may be different.

Delta is losing money right now and is unable to compete with the government for these workers.

Anyhow, it is perfectly fine to ALLOW salaried employees to do alternate assignments on company time if THEY volunteer to do so. There is just no way to argue this is exploitation. This is educational for the HQ workers to invest in DL's flagship product and interact with higher end customers. There is no downside to DL being flexible and nimble in this regard.
 
Djarin
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:39 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 11:09 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Delta is losing money right now and is unable to compete with the government for these workers.


I just want to address this briefly, since it’s been mentioned a few times in this thread — the research shows that enhanced UI benefits haven’t really led to people choosing to stay unemployed. While the conventional logic makes sense — why work when you’re paid more not to? — it hasn’t been borne out by the research. https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2020/441 and https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28470/w28470.pdf both explain this:

Overall, the weight of evidence seems to suggest that the unprecedentedly generous UI benefit levels during the Covid crisis did not have any substantially negative effect on jobs.


I guess it would be interesting to hear from Delta why they’re short on staff
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1098
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Delta Wants Sky Club Volunteer Work

Fri May 14, 2021 11:36 am

Djarin wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Delta is losing money right now and is unable to compete with the government for these workers.


I just want to address this briefly, since it’s been mentioned a few times in this thread — the research shows that enhanced UI benefits haven’t really led to people choosing to stay unemployed. While the conventional logic makes sense — why work when you’re paid more not to? — it hasn’t been borne out by the research. https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2020/441 and https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28470/w28470.pdf both explain this:

Overall, the weight of evidence seems to suggest that the unprecedentedly generous UI benefit levels during the Covid crisis did not have any substantially negative effect on jobs.


I guess it would be interesting to hear from Delta why they’re short on staff


Not a new debate. You cited 2 of probably 5,000 papers written on that subject.

couple of choice quotes.

“I think we’re seeing rising evidence of labor shortages. (...) You can see that in small business surveys, where we’re at record levels in terms of difficulties of finding labor. You can see that in terms of the data on job vacancies, which are at near record levels. (...) If we give people more money for not working than they were getting when they were working, then they’re going to stay on the sidelines.” -Larry Summers

"Public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to structural unemployment as an unintended side effect. . . . In other countries, particularly in Europe, benefits are more generous and last longer. The drawback to this generosity is that it reduces a worker’s incentive to quickly find a new job. Generous unemployment benefits in some European countries are widely believed to be one of the main causes of “Eurosclerosis,” the persistent high unemployment that affects a number of European countries." - Paul Krugman

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